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Honda S2000 Lease Questions



  • acceleratoraccelerator Posts: 136
    Here in Texas, there has not been any lease specials (announced at least) for 2007. I'm looking and waiting, too. :) In the meantime, I'm seeing a build-up of inventory in many of the dealerships in the area so I'm hoping they are preparing for the special soon.
  • The local dealership here has 5 new S2K's on the lot, thats the most I have ever seen, so I hope Honda's lease special comes soon.... :)

    What is the minimum FICO score to qualify for Honda's super preferred tier? I'm sure we are fine, ours is about 750, but was wondering what the minimum is if anyone knows.
  • dwynnedwynne Posts: 4,018
    I swapped my 01 S for a new 05 S in June a couple years ago, IIRC.

    Honda normally changes the deals once per month - actually just after the first of the month. The old deals will expire on the at the end of the month or the first Monday of the new month (if the month ends Fri-Sun).

    So NORMALLY the current deals would run out on Monday, April 2 - but the current lease and loan deals and running through the end of April - which is on a Monday, the 30th.

    They could add or change a deal at any time, but my GUESS would be you would see something at the start of of the month or not at all. One exception would be for holidays, but "who knows" for sure?

    I always find it useful to track the sales numbers when thinking/waiting on a deal. You can get them online many places, like

    Here are the latest (Feb 07) numbers for the S2000:

    Feb 07 Sales: 234
    Feb 06 Sales: 439
    Change: -46.7%

    YTD 07 (Jan+Feb) Sales: 452
    YTD 06 (Jan+Feb) Sales: 835
    Change: -47.0%

    So you can see sales hurl - they do for the S in general and for sure during the winter months, but they are running about 1/2 of the sales last year (which were terrible).
    I would predict based on this cheap lease deals and/or dealer money to move them out.

    If you look back at Feb 04 the numbers were 591/1073 and Feb 05 they were 542/863 - so you can see that this year is REALLY down.

    Contrast that with the Accord - they have been doing $750 cash to dealer AND cheap leases for the last couple of months. Accord sales for Feb 07 were up 20% over last year and YTD 07 was up 16%. What do you bet happened when Honda saw those numbers at the start of March? If you guessed no more $750 cash to dealer and no more really cheap lease deals - you would be correct.

  • dwynnedwynne Posts: 4,018
    What is the minimum FICO score to qualify for Honda's super preferred tier? I'm sure we are fine, ours is about 750, but was wondering what the minimum is if anyone knows.

    I heard 710, but with most banks 700 and up is considered "A".

  • Thanks for all the good info, I'll keep checking for updates. Sales look horrible based on the numbers you showed, so hopefully that will be in my favor soon.
  • Hi rd1ofakind. Honda made some revisions to its incentive program for the month of April. Unfortunately it did not introduce a special lease on the 2007 S2000, but it did introduce $2,000 dealer cash on it. Make sure to use this cash to your advantage when negotiating the capitalized cost of the S2000 that you are interested in. Honda was running a special lease on the 2006 S2000 in May 2006. It is difficult to say whether it will run a similar program this May or just stick with the large dealer cash allowance that it just introduced.

    Prices Paid Forum
  • Hey rd1ofakind. Your score definitely is high enough that you will have no trouble qualifying for Honda's best rates. Consumers need a 710 credit score or better to qualify for Honda Finance's "Super Preferred" credit tier.

    Prices Paid Forum
  • acceleratoraccelerator Posts: 136
    Question 1
    I am leasing the S
    My credit score is 710+
    Leasing through the dealership
    Do I have to accept the leasing/finance they offer or can I request a AHFC if AHFC is a better choice for me? I guess a better way to state this is the Manufacturer to Dealer incentive contingent on using a specific leasing/finance company? On post 43, I quoted some numbers the dealer gave me but the residual value was lower through this leasing company (not AHFC) so my payments were higher. If I go through AHFC, the residual value is higher, thus payments are lower.

    Question 2:
    After 3 years, if I still love this car and decide to keep it, would the lower residual value be better for me down the road or is the higher residual value still better? I'd have to finance the remaining balance. I don't typically hang on to a car more then 3 years (which is why leasing works for me) but I suspect this car could change that.
  • dwynnedwynne Posts: 4,018
    Sure, you can ask the dealer's finance guy to look at other lease offers - assuming they do business with other lease banks. You will get a mix of money factors and residuals (the residuals from 3rd party banks will likely all be the same since most use the same residual source). You can also check with the folks at LeaseCompare - you can get a free, instant online lease quote from them and see how that stacks up the the dealer's offerings. If they have a better deal, they buy the car from the dealer at your negotiated price and lease it to you.

    Note that you and I can't lease from a lease bank direct (say you hear USBank has a great lease rate on the S2000 you can't go to them and get it) - we have to go through a lease broker or car dealer. My very first lease car the dealer was super (I worked direct with the dealership manager) and he had a program called "LeaseTrack" (I think) and he could bring up the lease offers on any car, any credit rating, and term from a bunch of banks - then give me the one that was the best deal (much better than the captive lease bank at that time). Quite often what the dealer will offer you is what will make THEM the most money, not what will make you the best deal :(

    Question 2 is a good question and it all depends on the rates and residual values (and what the finance rate 3 year in the future will be). In general, you want the lowest possible rate with a realistic residual value. One problem with high residuals is that without GAP coverage the demand for pay out to the lease bank in the event of a loss may exceed the "book value" that insurance is willing to pay. But that is "in general" - you have to look at what you can get now and guess about the future and run the numbers to see how it works out.

    If it were me, the $2,000 incentive would be nice - but the lease rate is pretty high (leasecompare can do better, last time I checked) - but you might wait one more month and see if Honda has a promo rate for May on the S2000. A 0.9% or 1.9% MF can make for a sweet lease deal. When I have some time I will try to compare the current lease with $2k more off the car VS a cheap rate deal and see how it stacks up for sure....

  • acceleratoraccelerator Posts: 136
    Hey Dwynne, I looked at that site last time you posted it but I couldn't get it to come up but it came up today and you were right. I'm glad I tried it again.

    Are the chances of a lower lease rate AND the incentive likely? If I waited, it would help with my negative equity of a $1000 (squeezing in an extra payment).

    As for your advice about Question 2, that is brilliant! I think I'm too close to the situation and just want the car so I'm not thinking clearly. :) Thanks for bringing me back down to earth. I'm sincere, not being a smart alec
  • 23109vc23109vc Posts: 218
    i noticed there is now a lease special advertised on Honda's website. i checked a few days ago and it was NTO there, so this is something new.

    for those of you who have been shopping this vehicle - how does this lease stack up to past deals on the car?

    assuming one took advantage of this deal - what are the MF's and residual values...and is it a good deal?

    i am cross shopping the RX8 and S2000....i like the S MORE as i know it has more performance and i really want a convertible... but the RX8 has been a cheaper car...some were selling at the 27k price range... and so the S wa always more money...and this is going to be a toy car....totally every cent i can save might make it more likely to convince the wifey to pull the trigger on it.

    how is this new lease deal? is it really agood deal or not?
  • acceleratoraccelerator Posts: 136
    For convenience, here is the information from the Honda site:

    FEATURED LEASE: Closed-end lease for 2007 S2000 Manual Transmission (Model AP2147ENW) for $349.00 per month for 36 months with a $2,999.00 capitalized cost reduction available to customers who qualify for the AHFC Super Preferred credit tier. Other rates/tiers are available under this offer. $3,943.00 total due at lease signing (includes first month's payment, AHFC up front acquisition fee, capitalized cost reduction, security deposit. Security deposit waived in featured lease example. Total net capitalized cost and base monthly payment does not include tax, license, title, registration, documentation fees, options, insurance and the like). Not all buyers may qualify.

    I don't know how to read this. Can someone put this in plain English for us? This says I'd have to put down $4000 cash? Is this assuming the buyer leases the car at msrp price, invoice or what? The way I read it is that if someone with stellar credit applies that there is a $3000 taken off the top?
  • dwynnedwynne Posts: 4,018
    From Honda - not likely they would do a cheap lease AND give the dealer $2k in cash both. Even on the Accord at times they would do a little cash and cheaper lease, but with the recent $750 cash they would not combine it with the cheap lease deal. Now, if this was after the 08 cars come out (no S then) and they still had 07s on the lots, then they might make it really sweet.

    I love my 05 S and loves the 01 S I had before, but both have been leases. When I compared the lease VS buy it was a no-brainer to lease first, then buy later if I wanted to. On the 2nd one if they had not had a cheap lease deal, I MIGHT have just financed it - but more likely I would have just purchased the 01 off of lease and kept driving it.

  • acceleratoraccelerator Posts: 136

    Did you see the lease promo anounced today???? Once I understand it, then I may be driving a new S this weekend! :shades:
  • dwynnedwynne Posts: 4,018
    You left out some of the fine print:

    FEATURED LEASE: Closed-end lease for 2007 S2000 Manual Transmission (Model AP2147ENW) for $349.00 per month for 36 months with a $2,999.00 capitalized cost reduction available to customers who qualify for the AHFC Super Preferred credit tier. Other rates/tiers are available under this offer. $3,943.00 total due at lease signing (includes first month's payment, AHFC upfront acquisition fee, capitalized cost reduction, security deposit. Security deposit waived in featured lease example. Total net capitalized cost and base monthly payment does not include tax, license, title, registration, documentation fees, options, insurance and the like). Not all buyers may qualify.

    Subject to limited availability. Through 4/30/2007, to approved lessees by American Honda Finance Corp. Closed end lease for 2007 S2000 Manual Transmission vehicles (Model AP2147ENW), for well qualified lessees. Not all lessees will qualify. Higher lease rates apply for lessees with lower credit ratings. MSRP $34,845.00 (includes destination) less the suggested dealer contribution resulting in actual net capitalized cost $27,922.46. Dealer contribution may vary and could affect actual lease payment. Taxes, license, title fees, options and insurance extra. Total monthly payments $12,564.00. Option to purchase at lease end $20,210.10. Lessee responsible for maintenance, excessive wear/tear and 15 cents/mi. over 12,000 miles/year for vehicles with MSRP less than $30,000, but for vehicles with MSRP of $30,000 or more, mileage cost is 20 cents/mi. over 12,000 miles/year. See dealer for complete details.

    So the residual is $20,210.10 which is 58% of MSRP - so we know that. The net cap cost (the amount the lease is based on) is $27,922.46. Knowing the residual, term, payment ($349), and net cap we can work backwards to get the money factor. With my lease calculator this solves to 0.00280 money factor or 6.72% rate. Note that the last MF and residual I saw (in January) was 0.00275 and 58% - so this is the SAME DEAL (actually a little worse).

    The money due at signing breaks down like this: They ask for $3,943.00. $2,999.00 of this goes toward cap cost reduction (a down payment, in other words). There is a $595 lease acquisition fee, $349 first month's payment - the normal $350 refundable security deposit is waived. $2999+$595+$349 = $3943.

    If we break down the price part, the net cap after your money and the dealer discount is $27,922.46 and $2,999 of that is your money - so your price is $30,991.46 . Invoice looks to be $31,604 so your price is $612.54 under invoice. Edmunds incentive page shows no incentives, but carsdirect shows their price $1,500 under invoice and it has been posted here there is $2,000 in dealer money. So $612 under invoice is not that good of a price.

    So the rate is high as is the price = so not that hot a deal.

    Keep in mind this is a SUGGESTED deal - say you get the dealer to drop the price $1,000 more, then you would just pay $1,000 less at signing and still have the $349 payment. Or you could pay nothing at signing and have a larger payment.

    If you check at leasecompare, they will do the same car for the same price for 36 months, 0.00258 MF, but $19,165 residual (55%). A lower rate, but $1,045 less residual so the net is your payment would be higher ($389). This is a case of the real world residual being less than the captive one.

    If you did a lease/buy using the Honda deal you would save $40 each month on the lease (plus tax) or $1,440 over the life of the lease (plus tax). At the current capitalone lease buy out rate, the extra $1,045 in residual would cost you $32.87 per month if financed for 36 months (plus tax) or $1,183.32 over the life of the loan. If you financed for 48 months it would be $25.88 per month (plus tax) for 48 months or $1,242.24. So it would APPEAR that taking the higher rate and higher residual (given CURRENT buy out finance rates) you would be a little off. For sure if you did not buy the car at lease end you would be better off.

    The stellar credit part only applies to the lease deal and MF, not to the residual or discounted price.

    I think I would wait and see if they sweeten the pot. The 3rd party lease residuals have dropped to more real-world numbers that reflect the loss of retained value of the S2000 (the first few years it was a STRONG residual car and SWEET lease deal). So even getting the car well under invoice your 3rd party numbers are not that good. Even if you deal the price down and take the Honda finance, you still have to put down $3k or more and have a $349+tax payment. The old special was less money down and a $299+tax payment due to its much lower money factor.

    Run the numbers for yourself, I just did this quick and dirty so may have messed something up :D

  • 23109vc23109vc Posts: 218
    someone needs to start negotiating wtih a dealer and see how low they can really go.

    i KNOW peole have been leasing the S2000 for roughly invoice, or barely over it. they aren't selling well AT ALL.

    now if this "lease special" is really honda kicknig in another 3000 into the pot...then assuming invoice is around should be able to get ZERO down and a cap cost of roughly 27k. plus drive offs....

    using the MSRP and the residual value - it looks like Honda is using 58% as the residual value. for the 12k/36 lease advertised.

    the advertised special though assumes that almost $4000 due at signing. that's BS. if Honda is kicking in 3k, and dealers WERE selling at invoice, I don't see why you cant now get them 3k UNDER invoice.

    i don't know the MF is, but assuming it's what it was been in the past... you are looking at payments around $366 with NOTHING down.

    put down the $4000 they are askign or, and assume $1000 or so goes to drive offs, and about $3000 more goes to additional cap cost reduction, and you should be more at $268 with tax...

    or am i just dreaming??

    when i leased my MDX it was after seeing an "advertised" lease special on the website..and once i started calling around....i had NO problem getting a better deal than what the website offered...making me thing you can always do better than what honda's website says...

    i would think you could get that advertised monthly rate but with NO money down.

    anyone agree/disagree???
  • acceleratoraccelerator Posts: 136

    I have to know what you do. I'm not 100% confident in my lease calculator not to mention I'm still learning the terminology. I have to keep going back and forth on my references. Are you using a web site for the lease calculations? If so, would you mind posting it? I'm using

    The local dealer here is selling the S at invoice - $2000. Somehow I've got two salespeople working with me and they are giving me different numbers. One person said OTD of 30,100 and the other said 31,694 (numbers are approximate). Does TTL of about $2100 sound about right?

    If you check at leasecompare, they will do the same car for the same price for 36 months, 0.00258 MF, but $19,165 residual (55%). A lower rate, but $1,045 less residual so the net is your payment would be higher ($389). This is a case of the real world residual being less than the captive one.

    Going through, is it that straightforward? Sounds too easy.
  • 23109vc23109vc Posts: 218
    what I am trying to figure out is what kind of incentive or rebate is Honda actually offering to the dealers?

    is this just Honda's way of saying they will sell the car at or near invoice....or is there actual MONEY on the table goign to the dealers? i've seen several posts here where people have leased/purchased S2000s at invoice..or barely over it..and there was NO dealer cash. if all of a sudden Honda is kicking in more money to move the cars, that should simplyb e money in OUR pocket...and the bottom line will adjust down by exactly how much cash Honda is adding to the pot.

    i emailed one local dealer and got a BS email that the "lease special" doesn't apply to California.. yeah sure... what jerks.

    walk into a car dealer and ask how much and they will lie, cheat, steal and jerk you around as far as they can.

    negotiate hard, only deal via email/phone/fax... and NEVER set foot on their stinkin' lot until you have hard copy printouts from 2-3 dealers...and can really play them off one another. once they sense you are SERIOSU and will pull the trigger..and they know you have other go buy the car will quickly find otu what the REAL bottom line is...

  • dwynnedwynne Posts: 4,018
    i am cross shopping the RX8 and S2000....i like the S MORE as i know it has more performance and i really want a convertible... but the RX8 has been a cheaper car...some were selling at the 27k price range... and so the S wa always more money...and this is going to be a toy car....totally every cent i can save might make it more likely to convince the wifey to pull the trigger on it.

    I have both, actually on my 2nd S2000 so what do you want to know?

    The 8 backseat is usuable by small folks and tighter for anyone larger - the seat behind the driver is not usable at all if the drive has the seat well back. The trunk is a bit larger, but the small, oddly shaped opening limits access. The rotary is SMOOTH and gladly revs to redline, but drinks oil (by design) and drinks LOTS of premium gas. With a VooDoo knob the 6 speed tranny is just sweet - actually BETTER than the S2000 with the same knob installed. Looks "richer" inside than the S. Resale value seriously hurls (hey, they can't sell them NEW so you know used ones are worth little). Reliability is a serious concern - there is even a recall that may replace the entire engine. The stereo is not much, even with the Bose in my GT. Odd set up means no easy/cheap way to upgrade.

    The S2000 is just two seats, decent trunk room, little cabin storage space and more of a "raw" sports car. Needs premium too, but sips in comparison. Mostly Honda reliable - much more so that the 8. Resale value was super strong, now just above average (I would say). The best part - the top goes down. Standard DIN stereo is not much, but can be easily upgraded (high powered Pio MP3 deck and Polk components in the doors = nice sound). I have have a Modifry control gizmo so the dash stereo controls work the Pio deck.

    I get 14-15 mpg commuting in the RX-8, around 19-20mpg on a trip (fill up, drive Interstate, fill up).

    I get 23-24 mph commuting in the S2000, around 27-28 on a trip (all with the top down).

    My commute is about 25 miles round trip and about 1/2 stop and go and 1/2 freeway. The 394hp M5 I used to have got around 13-15mpg on the same commute - the 8 is not NEARLY as large or powerful but slurps the gas at the same rate.

    Trade on an 05 S with 10k miles is around $23,625. An 05 8 with GT pack and Navi (like mine) with 10k miles has a trade in of around $17,925. The original price on both was about the same.

    If you go to and check out a lease, they use ALG (industry standard) residuals. A 3 year lease on a new 2007 RX-8 GT shows a residual of 48%. The same lease term on a new 2007 S2000 shows 55%. This is a large difference - the leasing industry has a LOT more faith in the S retaining value than the RX-8.

    In another example, my captive (Mazda Credit) lease residual is LESS on a 24 month lease than the current captive (Honda Credit) lease on a 36 month lease! Honda thinks their car will be worth more in 36/36k than Mazda does in 24/24k!

    All that said, Mazda is desperate to get rid of the 8s so you can get a deep discount on them. But Honda is pretty hot to rid themselves of S2000s as well, but not has hard-pressed as Mazda is (and has been for several years).

    If I had to pick one, no question I keep the S2000. I love mine. I like the 8 as well and I am thinking of buying mine at lease end - IF I can talk MAC down on the buyout price. Current trade is a good bit less than the buyout so it is not a "good deal" at the stated price.

  • Ok guys, I just called my local dealer (where I leased my '05 S2K, which I dont have anymore) and my salesman didnt even know the S2K lease special started today, funny huh. So I told him to work some numbers, and give me the best, final price he can, knowing that I am a returning customer. I also told him I want the price of the car reduced, and I want a quote for a 3yr and 4yr lease with 0 down, and super preferred tier. He said I should have an answer within an hour or two...I'll keep you guys posted.
  • dwynnedwynne Posts: 4,018
    I used LeaseIt! on my Palm Pilot and also an online calculator on a web page of mine.

    I don't know OTD from nothing. I always ask for quotes that include the car, destination, and any dealer doc/prep fees. I can figure the rest for myself.

    Keep in mind for a lease your OTD does not mean anything anyway, since for most of us that taxes on leases are not the same on a purchase.

    Invoice shows as $31,604 - $2,000 = $29,604. If you plug that price into leasecompare you get a 36/36k lease for $440+tax with just $440+tax due at signing (buy default they roll the lease acq fee and $99 doc fee into the lease). With an extra $3,600 due at signing ($3931 total due at signing, to make it like the Honda deal) the payments would be $331 per month plus tax.

    It is that easy, I have leased with them a few times when the numbers said it was a better deal and had a great experience. I have also sold a couple of off-lease cars through them to avoid the double tax problem - again with nice results.

    If you plug your price into the Honda deal, I come up with $416.09 payment + tax with nothing due at signing other than first payment. This is VS the $440 from leasecompare, if I did the numbers right. If you put down an extra $3,600 the payments would drop to $306.19 + tax (VS $331). That higher residual more than offsets the slightly lower MF.

    If you were going to do the deal NOW, I would do it at $2k under invoice and use the Honda MF and residual. If for some reason you can't, then you could do the deal via leasecompare and still come out OK.

    In contrast, lets say they had a 1.9% deal but not $2k, if you lease at invoice and 1.9% your payment would be $376 per month + tax with just $376 + tax due at signing. If you put another $3,600 down (to make it like the other deals) it would drop to $274 per month. The old special called for less down and a payment of $299 per month + tax.

    So paying $2k more and getting a cheaper lease MF would net a better deal - IF they bring that deal back.

  • dwynnedwynne Posts: 4,018
    As I have shown, there is no "lease special" - it is the same old high money factor that have been running for a while. It is a PUBLISHED deal and does factor in the dealer taking money off MSRP without you haggling AND factors in the (it seems) $2,000 in factory to dealer money.

    Others have state they were offered the car for invoice less the $2k - and we know what the lease numbers are now. Will that be what your folks give you? We will see.

  • acceleratoraccelerator Posts: 136
    You just provided me with confidence in my lease calc (and I'll need to download that app for my palm). I ran the same scenario (MF vs. $2000 incentive) and came to the same conclusion.
  • 23109vc23109vc Posts: 218

    which one is faster? i get the impression that both cornering, and in a straight line, the S2000 is quite a bit quicker. the 0-60 times are close, but if you look at 0-100 or quarter mile, it looks like once you hit third gear the S2000 will walk away from the rX8.

    which one is more PURE FUN to just get in and blast around in? you think the S2000 is better or the RX8 smoothness is better?

    the RX8 is probably a softer ride, perhaps better for a daily driver...while the S2000 is the one to get if you want a car to just have FUN.

    i have two #3 coming. we have a large SUV as the main family car...and our second car (which I drive now) is a large sedan that could fit the whole family + stuff if we needed it to. i like having two cars that will haul the whole family. i am tempted to sell/trade the second car (only wroth maybe $5k) to fund the next car. only problem is..given my family size...even though we have one good/new/large SUV...having a two seater as our second car would be kind of stupid. i'd never be able to take anyone anywhere..... the RX8 *might* wouldn't fit 3 kids..but it would fit one or two it would have somewhat more practicaly than the S2000 but not a lot.

    Dennis - do you have kids? do you think the RX8 really is all that more practical than a two seater..or do you find the rear seats/trunk are basically as useless as the S2000? am i mistaken for thinking an RX8 woulc be capable as a "second" car for a person with kids?

    part of me thinks the RX8 migth be more usable...but then again...i tried to fit a carseat in teh back seat and it would only fit if the seat was all the way forward..which mean i could fit it on the passenger side..with NO front passenger...but no way i could fit wife, and two kids in the back if one was in a big car seat/carrier thing...

    so i'm ultimately thinking that i'll probably wind up keeping my $5k beater as the to/from work car, spare vehicle...and whatever i wind up buying will be a third car/fun car for me...and if that's teh real case..then it's an S2000 all the long as the cost to lease/buy is similar to the RX8.

    one reason i had looked at the 8 was that tey were a lot cheaper. you coudl get a loaded up model for $26-27k...and the S was at least 30k.... if i sold my $5k car..that would make the RX8 really like a 20-21k car... in net dollars...but that's only if i made the 8 the second "family" car and the more i read about it the less i think it would really be able to serve that purpose...

    both of them are really toy cars..very little practicality...and if i get somethign for pure fun, no doubts the S2000 is better suited for that.

    thanks for all that info!!
  • acceleratoraccelerator Posts: 136
    the $5k car would actually net more since you could drop the insurance, maintenance cost, etc. Depending on your age of kids though, the $5k car might make a good first car of your oldest kid. Especially being a large sedan from a safety standpoint, let along with the price of gas today, they wont be driving too far! :)
  • 23109vc23109vc Posts: 218
    you mean quit paying maintenance/insurance on the $5k car...effectively making having THREE cars MORe expensive due to having to pay for THREE ot two? :) i know.

    that's why i've toyed with the idea of dumping my sedan and getting an RX8. it's not as fun/fast as an S2000..but i *might* be able to make it work for my needs.

    my oldest is no need to save a car for him yet...

    i don't take the kids to school, and they aren't in daycare. wife is stay at home mom. so i only need wheels to/from work. i don't really *need* a second car to haul the family..we have a brand new MDX for would just be nice to have a second car that had SOME practicality...

    but honstly...if I did just say F'it...and sold my sedan..and got an S2000 as the second's not like we would have problems... daddy drives his fun to to work/back.. mommy has a new MDX to haul the kids which we all drive in together after work and on weekends.

    i'd just be in trouble if teh SUV had a dead battery and the wife was in a rush to take the kids somewhere...unlikely scenario...but could happen.

    plus...i don't really need 3 cars. it's more to maintain, insure, etc. and while i make good money...i am not made of it and having a third "toy" car would mean less money for other things that really are more urgent...i could really rationalize a new second maintenance, no repair bills.... just a car payment.... but a third car is a harder sell..not just on the wife but on me.. don't really need it.

    thanks for the info on S vs. RX Dennis. i think i'd much rather have an S2000...but i was looking at the 8 as it would be sort of a compromise. small, nice handling, fun to drive, high revving..a lot lie the S in some respects...only no top down :( but has back seats that would make it somewhat opposed to a totally impractical two seater roadster... hmmm...
  • dwynnedwynne Posts: 4,018
    Here is a link to Lease-It!

    Free trial demo, $10 to buy and WELL worth it. You should see the F&I guy's eyes pop when I pull out my Palm device (currently a Palm+cell phone) and run the numbers while they watch. So can save a whole bunch of schenarios and call them up to compare. "don't lease without it" as they say.

    The formula is not hard, but doing it in a hurry and not forgetting anything and punching in the right numbers is the hard part. You should always check it yourself, I or anyone else could post a bad number and lead you astray.

  • Heres what they said so far: With the 2k incentive, the price of the car is $30,787.16

    0 down, 36 month lease, 12k miles $470 month + tax
    0 down, 48 month lease, 12k miles $430 month + tax

    I told him to tell me what the residuals and money factors are, and also to see if he can do any better on the monthly payment, so I am waiting for a call back....

    Meanwhile, I would greatly appreciate any input on this deal, is it worth going for?
  • dwynnedwynne Posts: 4,018
    It is hard to say. I think under track conditions the S bests the 8 and the 350z both from tests I have read. Neither the S or the 8 has any torque to speak of so you have to pay attention and drive it and keep the revs up.

    My wife and I go "riding" in the S when the weather is nice, we don't do that in the 8. While it is a fun car, it is not "lets just go riding" fun to us.

    Our kids are mostly all grown now (26, 18, 16) and all way too tall to sit behind me in the 8 and just BARELY able to sit one behind the other in the 8. If you are short(er) you could kit a kid behind you in the 8 - for sure in a car seat. There is no airbag cut off in either car (keep in mind I have 05s, so it may be different now) so you would not want to take small child in the front of either - and no car seats up there. You could fit two kids (of the right sizes) fore and aft in the passenger side with ease.

    I was driving a sedan, then started getting a nice day convertible as a second car (Miata M, c5 'vette, 01 S, 05 S). Once the gets got older and were getting cars of their own and since my wide has a new Accord, I settled on the 8 as my "sedan". Mostly just me, but room for more in a pinch. I was also keeping a snow day/bad weather car - a Scooby-Doo Legacy AWD wagon (hey, I had a c5 'vette convertible and an M5 - which would YOU drive in the snow?) but I got rid of it and got a Scion xB. I loved the design and they dropped it and re-did it (not nearly as cute). So that and 4 snows = snow day car, and a spare car for the rest of the family (I got the auto so anyone could drive it) and I have lots of room to carry folks and stuff if I need to. Hey, I even have a 14 year old T-100 pickup for trips to the dump and hauling stuff. The right tool for the job, that is my motto :D

    The 8 is a softer ride, but still gobs of road feel. The S even more feel but even rougher ride - but it rarely bothers me as the car is "tight" but I can see where it would put some off. What I did was to find a well used, broken in example of each and "test drive" the heck out of them before I purchased. You don't want to drive a new car that hard and it may not feel the same after some miles either. I decided I could live with both.

    With the weak reliability, poor mileage, and poor resale value it would be hard for me to recommend someone get a new 8. If you could get a left-over 06 for WAY under invoice or pick up a lightly used one (like mine) for cheap then it would be OK. The S is just more fun, super mileage for the performance, top down, better resale, better reliability and something I can recommend. But I don't have to drive yours or pay for it, you do :D

  • acceleratoraccelerator Posts: 136
    My wife wants me to keep the truck for runs to Home Depot but I want the S (we cant have kids). My idea of compromise would be to get a small utility trailer which could be towed by her car or dare I say it, the S. Home Depot is 1.6 miles and all we ever get from there are 4x8 plywood or shrubs, mulch, that kind of stuff. The 4x8's would fit in her suv and mulch could be put in the S's trunk in a pinch (OR we can alway rent the truck from HD).

    I drive over 60 miles a day so the improvement in gas mileage alone offsets the increase in insurance not to mention better for the environment... yeah, she isn't buying it either. :)
  • acceleratoraccelerator Posts: 136
    Awesome, thanks!
  • dwynnedwynne Posts: 4,018
    The dealer can't change the residual, it is fixed by the lease bank (either Honda or ALG) so I would bet you get the same for the 36 month lease as is stated in this thread and on the Honda web page. If you don't, then they are quoting you a non-Honda lease (which may not may not be better).

    Invoice less $2k is $29,604, so your price is $1,183.16 higher. If that is just the price for the car and destination, that is WAY too high.

    You need to know the amount due at signing and how that is broken down. If $470 a month is "sign and drive" it is a lot better deal than $4k down with that payment.

  • dwynnedwynne Posts: 4,018
    My boss got sick of the break downs and high gas costs of his Ford SUV so he sold it and got a new Accord I4.

    We talked about him buying a trailer for those Lowe's/HomeDepot trips but in the end he found a local place that rents pickups for $20 or so a day. So if he needs something that is too big to fit, he just rents a truck and goes and gets it. No trailer to store, no 2nd (or 3rd) vehicle to buy and insure, but the extra hassle of having to go do the rent. He is happy with the arrangement, though.

    Your insurance mention reminds me, the S2000 is about 14% more for ME to insure than the RX-8. They used to be nearly the same cost, so I think the difference is the fact that the resale value of the 8 has eroded more. Also, as used S2000s get more plentiful and cheaper to buy, more "kids" can get into them and that means more claims. More claims means higher rates for all.

  • Here are the residual and money factors:

    36 month lease: 58% residual, MF .00290
    48 month lease: 50% residual, MF .00270

    The monthly payments for the 36/48 month lease is with 0 down, sign and drive. He told me there wasnt any more room to play with, at least thats what he said, maybe if I'm at the dealership, that could change.

    Still high? Should I check with another dealer or two? What do you think of the 48 month lease? Its about 40.00 a month less :)
  • 23109vc23109vc Posts: 218

    i think the loaded up 8s are selling at or near $27-29k...
    I have found loaded 06s..some have the special edition"shinka" 06...still on lots for 7-8k off mabye 26k for a car that had an msrp of 32-33k....

    if i were to sell my sedanbeater or trade it and net roughly $5k...and RX8 for 26-5k would mean i'm only actually taking on another 20-21k in debt...not bad for a much more fun car.

    the reliability of the 8 is a worry. i have heard a lot of stories about problems...and i assume the S2000 would be bullet proof by comparison...

    i think if i am looknig for a car that can fit the bill of daily driver, be fun to zip around in, and still have *some* degree of practicality - the 8 would be a great choice.

    for pure fun..with NO considerations of practicality the S would be better.

    Dennis - in terms of pure if you nail it away from a light and get the revs up...way up...and rip through the you feel that either the 8 or S is clearly "faster" or feels more powerful than the other..or do yout hink ti's a toss up?

    i test drove an 8 and i felt it was "quick" but not fast. no revved nie...but the real selling point was on the twisty set of roads the salesguy took me on..the thing just carved through turns with was one of those cars that you "connect" wtih the road in...and it was a blast to drive. i've driven high hp cars that jam you in the seat... i used to have a mega hp sports sedan (think Audi S4 type car)....and the 8 was TEN times more "fun" to drive..way less snap if you hammered it from a stop or from a roll...but if i just focused on how much "fun" i was having, the 8 won. i imagine an S2000 would be the same, only wtih the top down.whicho nt he rigth day is all that much MORE fun...

    in terms of speed, hadnling, and drviing enjoyment... is the 8 or S better by much? if i got one would be under warranty so any issues would get fixed on their dime... so just assume either was trouble free...

    for cruising around, revving the stink out o fit... taking corners fast and blasting on twisty back roads... (aside from teh top down element) you think the 8 or S is a ton more capable than the other or do you think they are neck and neck in terms of acceleration, cornering ability, shifter feel, and that "connectedness" feeling you get forma truly great handling fun sports car??
  • dwynnedwynne Posts: 4,018
    The MF sounds too high, when I worked it backwards I got 0.00280. What it could be is they added the 0.001 for the "no security deposit" option and that is where they got that number. The dealer has no room on the rate (except to mark it up) and no room on the residual, but do have on the price of the car.

    36 months is the sweet spot in most any lease deal, long enough to defer the initial loss of value but short enough to still be under full warranty the entire lease term.

    If you plug 0.00290 and invoice less $2,000 + $595 (lease acq fee) into the lease calc it solves to $423.66 per month + tax with $423.66 + tax due at signing.

    A sign and drive is a little harder to figure to the penny, so what I do is multiply the normal payment by the term then divide by 1 less than the term:

    $423.66 * 36 = $15251.76 / 35 = $435.77 + tax.

    They are quoting you $470 per month plus tax, so they are way off what would be the best price. Around $1,100 too high. I would get them to lower the price on the car, that is the only way to make the deal better.

    I leased my 05 at invoice (not under, like they offer now) but due to the better money factor my payment is $100 or more less than the one they quoted you INCLUDING 7% sales tax and I did first month due at signing, IIRC.

  • Dennis,

    Thanks for the info. I will have to go to the dealership next week, and tell them they need to lower the price of the car. $470 per month plus tax would put it at 504.78 for 36 months, and theres no way I'm paying that.
  • dwynnedwynne Posts: 4,018
    The Shinka is in the ugly (to me) black cherry paint, or that would be the one to get. A factory loaded up car always retains more value than an optioned up car. When you check used value most places will ask Shinka or normal 8, then when you pick normal 8 it will let you add options. Everyone knows the options don't count for much - and you lose a lot more of the option value than you do car value. But I don't like the Shinka color outside, so it was not for me.

    If you want a red-light burner neither car is right for you, I would probably get a Mustang GT for that. Lots of red light speed and gobs of torque - just decent handling compared to the other 2 cars. You can get a v-8 GT premium coupe for just over $25k and a v-8 GT premium convertible for under $30k. More room than the S and "easier" to drive as well. Probably better reliability and resale than the 8 as well.

    When they do 0-60 times in the magazines they really abuse some of the cars. For sure those with weak torque like the S and 8. They rev to 7k or something and side-step the clutch. They get 0-60 numbers that rival 'vette numbers but this is NOT how you are I would treat out own car (while we could get close to magazine 'vette or 'stang numbers).

    The S is just more fun, but I only drive mine when I can put the top down. Both are true great handling sports cars, neither is a drag racer - the curves are where both shine.

    One of our customers was here for a meeting and saw my 8 in the parking lot so asked who owned it - as she was thinking of buying one. I talked to her about the pros and cons and mentioned she should look at the S2000. It was nice the next day so I drove that in, at lunch we went for a drive. Once she got behind the wheel and v-tec'd the motor and wound it up the smile would not leave her face :D . She had test driven the 8 before, but never driven the S. Maybe not as practical, but a lot more fun (to me and to her, I guess).

    Most folks drive 12k-15k per year. Premium here yesterday was around $2.80 per gallon. If I drove that much in the 8 commuting it would cost me $2,240 to $2,800 in gas for a year (assuming it gets no higher). The same miles in the S would be $1,460 to $1,826. Say you have it 5 years, the extra $780 in gas would end up at $3,900 over that time. That, is a lot of money.

    Like I said, find a nice used example of each and score some drive drives and see what you think. You have to live with and pay for whatever you choose, not me :D

  • dwynnedwynne Posts: 4,018
    Try other dealers too, my local dealers just will not deal on S2000s and usually will not honor the "lease special" on the Honda page (which is not that good of a deal) so I have to go out of town/state to get a good price. You might post where you live both here and in the S2000 price paid forum and see if someone can recommend a dealer to you that offers lower prices w/o a haggle and hassle ordeal.

  • Sounds good, I just got off the phone with another dealer and they can beat the deal I mentioned but only by about 10.00 a month. I mentioned to him the invoice - 2k + 595.00 at $423.66 per month + tax with 1st months payment at signing, and he couldnt believe it. He said if you can get that deal anywhere go get it.

    Anyway, I live in Colorado Springs, CO so if anyone can recommend a good dealership in or around Colorado, let me know, thanks...

    Thanks for the info Dennis.
  • dwynnedwynne Posts: 4,018
    You should break it into parts (in case my numbers are wrong).

    Deal the price down on the car, invoice less $2k or close to it. Then plug in the lease and see what that works out to. Compare that with leasecompare numbers for the same car and choose the one that works out the best.

    I heard back from one of my dealers and they will do $29,593 or $29,783 for the car with destination and dealer fee for me. The variance is due to a Honda price increase, some on their lot are invoiced higher and some lower. No where close to you, I am afraid. I probably can't get enough out of my 05 to do the upgrade at this point - but I am thinking on it :D

    It probably will not be warm enough for top down driving there for another month or two anyway :D - so you might wait to see if they have a better LEASE deal. Then you don't have to try to hammer the dealers down so low on price.

    Keep in mind they make 3% of full MSRP as holdback, which on a $34.5k car is $1,035. So they could sell you a car near or at invoice less the $2,000 and still make a nice profit. It is possible some dealers have not heard about the $2k dealer money - it is not on Edmunds and was "just" announced I am told.
  • acceleratoraccelerator Posts: 136
    Is there a Honda dealer over in Motor City (Manitou Springs area)? I test drove an Acura Integra GS-R a few years back from the Acura dealership. During our test drive, he directed me to some of the mountain roads... What a blast. I can't imagine how much fun that would be in an S. I don't live in Black Forest anymore but I sure do miss it.
  • Yea we have some sweet mountain roads out here. Theres only one dealer in the Colorado Springs/Manitou area. So far I've talked to the Springs and Pueblo dealers, may have to try Denver area or like Dennis said, wait it out and see if theres something better in a couple months.

    Accelerator, where do you live now?
  • acceleratoraccelerator Posts: 136
    What is IIRC as you mentioned here:

    I leased my 05 at invoice (not under, like they offer now) but due to the better money factor my payment is $100 or more less than the one they quoted you INCLUDING 7% sales tax and I did first month due at signing, IIRC.
  • acceleratoraccelerator Posts: 136
    I'm in the Houston, TX area... boring, flat, smelly, did I mention flat? :sick:

    I too, think I am going to wait it out a little longer (I'm also a little upside down on my current car so I really need to be patient. :(
  • dwynnedwynne Posts: 4,018
    IIRC = If I remember correctly

    I don't have me lease contract and paperwork handy, but if I do remember right I only paid first month at signing, but may have done a sign a drive (since the rate was so low). With the much lower MF back then, even paying invoice for the car (compared to invoice - $2000) it ends up being cheaper than the current "deal".

    That said, getting the car so cheap even with a OK lease deal is not a bad deal - and you could always finance rather than lease.

    Only Honda knows what the future holds in deals, and they may not know since they will wait and see how the warmer weather or spring and the $2k dealer incentive improve sales. If they don't pick up, then you may see a cheap lease deal down the road.

    One thing to keep in mind - if they entice you to buy the car or 3rd party lease the car then they don't have to sell it again if you return it. If they have to make a cheap lease deal to move the cars, then they get a lot of them back in 3yrs and have to figure out how to sell them again. With the inflated residuals they use for the lease, they would likely have to discount them (or CPO them) to sell them. With the Accord cheap leases, no big deal since they retain value well and there is a STRONG used Accord market. The S2000 market is a lot smaller, not that it is not a great car, just not what a lot of folks want for the money.

  • dwynnedwynne Posts: 4,018
    In Texas the top down season comes early - and takes a break during the summer, doesn't it :D ? I can stand about 55 degrees with the top down, windows up, heat on and into the 90's top down, windows down, maybe A/C on. When it gets much colder or hotter I put the top up (or drive another car).

  • For all the people on here like myself that were waiting for a lease special, I have to agree with Dennis that the current lease ( I wont call it a special because its not) is not a good deal, and I have decided to wait it out some more. Whats interesting is if you look on Honda's website under current offers, you will see the other leases are called "special lease" while the S2000 lease offer is called "standard lease". That speaks volumes, I will wait for a "special lease" like they have had in the past and hope it comes around sometime this year. So for now, I'll continue to enjoy my '06 TL w/Navi. :)
  • acceleratoraccelerator Posts: 136
    I am so on the fence. I see the colors I want disappearing from the dealership lots so I'm nervous about waiting. :( On Magic 8 Ball, what do you see in my future? :)

    Magic 8 Ball's Response: "Ask Again Later"
  • dwynnedwynne Posts: 4,018
    It can be a tough call, but I would say be ready to go if (or when) the deal comes out - be the first one make a deal and get a deposit down on the color you want. This is supposed to be the last model year for the S, so I would assume production will end in the next few months and dealers will be getting in the last they will get in the weeks after that.

    If I had to choose between not having an S2000 and paying the normal lease price, I guess I would pay up. While there is still a chance they will offer a sweeter deal, I would wait. Note: easy for me to say as I have an S2000 to drive :D

This discussion has been closed.