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Comments
I find quotes like that HIGHLY suspicious. RTFs are heavy, and like it or don't, weight is not the friend of good handling. Show me a car with good suspension and RFTs and I'll show you a car with a great suspension and GFTs.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Did you replace your RFTs with regular tires using the OEM rims? I thought the rims were designed for RFTs and not all tire shops have the equipment to mount. Also, how did that the affect the tire pressure monitoring system if any? I can't stand driving the car with BS EL42s!!
FWIW, there are MANY folks who've mounted regular tires (dubbed Gets Flat Tires or simply GFTs) on E90 BMWs, and so far at least, the reports have been nothing but positive. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
Best regards,
TB
Shipo re weight, I understand your argument. The complaint in the post I read about switching to GFTs centered around vagueness and squishiness to the handling. This rings true as the springs have presumably been softened to compensate for the hardness of the tires. I can sense from my own car that a lot of the precision around center is related to that hardness and stiffness in the sidewall -- the spring rates with ZSP don't feel that firm. The work has shifted from the tire to the suspension.
One other thought -- C/D, Edmunds, CAR, etc., all raved about E90s they had tested with RFTs, presumably mostly RE050As.
Regards, NK
"Shipo re weight, I understand your argument. The complaint in the post I read about switching to GFTs centered around vagueness and squishiness to the handling. This rings true as the springs have presumably been softened to compensate for the hardness of the tires. I can sense from my own car that a lot of the precision around center is related to that hardness and stiffness in the sidewall -- the spring rates with ZSP don't feel that firm. The work has shifted from the tire to the suspension."
Something about the above assumptions don't feel quite right.
1) If anything, I would assume that the spring rate on cars meant to have factory RFTs would be increased over what it would have been if GFTs were intended for factory fitment.
2) In an effort to dampen out some of the hardness of the tires, I would assume that the shocks and struts would have increased capabilities as well.
3) ZSP equipped BMWs have never felt all that firm compared to "Sport Suspension" equipped competitors. BMW seems to be the master of dialing in great handling without sacrificing suspension compliance. Why? Don't know for sure, however, I've always taken it for granted that this was because of the rough cobble stone roads (thinking Paris at the moment) that these cars need to negotiate fairly near to home.
4) Regarding vagueness and squishiness, IIRC, our intrepid member blueguydotcom has commented that his new GFTs have increased the precision of his 330i SP. That corresponds nicely with how I would think the conversion would work.
"One other thought -- C/D, Edmunds, CAR, etc., all raved about E90s they had tested with RFTs, presumably mostly RE050As."
Yeah, true, however, my bet is that if they had the same cars shod with GFTs they would have raved even more. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
As for fixing a problem by getting a VW product...uh, weird logic. Out of the pan...
I have been researching into in tire valves and putting gunk in is going to destroy the sensor - that will be another $100 then. Harsh ride sucks given that rarely can you use the performance fully anyway.
What I do not understand is here in Europe its pretty damm dense with people and garages so RFT's is no big problem but I sure as hell would not like to driving around most of the US with the wide open spaces and RFT's a rarity.
Motor Tire Dealer recently published an interesting 8 page piece on the problems of TPMS for tire shops following a November conference on Intelligent Tires. Well worth reading - note that Goodyear are working to perfect putting batteryless sensors in car tires alongside the RFID. Once they crack that life will be good for everyone. I think they are the same sensors as Honeywell sell to Michelin for its new truck tire system.
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http://www.moderntiredealer.com/t_inside.cfm?action=art_det&storyid=1356&pgNum=2-
“When combined with the inevitable delays in availability and the dependence on the OEM dealer supply chain, he projects that customer dissatisfaction will begin to rise within the next four to six years. I personally think it's already on the rise and could become a political hot potato by then.”
“If the government gets enough pressure from voters because the systems are impossible to maintain and ridiculously expensive, the TPMS requirement could be repealed.”
Anyone know of a good brand of run-flats? I hear Continentals are pretty good. I doubt I will ever get another BMW because the dealer wasn't very honest about the tires. I have been reading about so many other owners who are having the same problems.
Regards, NK
I guess that is relative because my four year old Audi A4 was bulletproof and our 325 has been in the shop 4 times in 13 months... plus there is the whole tire thing.
BMW will do whatever they want, because they are BMW and people will keep buying cars from them. Personally, I recently chose a new Audi over a BMW specifically due to my distaste for the runflats on our 325 and the dealer associated experience. My feeling is that BMW could care less that they lost my business, but I feel better about the decision.
Dealer service is decent but my dealer always puts me in cruddy rental cars and rarely in BMWs.
I considered dumping my 330i expressly because of the horrible ride and handling with RFTs. Switching to normal tires made the car livable but still boring.
We have the same problems over the ‘pond’. I’m in Scotland and I’m running a 330d touring (station wagon) on stock (non sport) suspension and 17” wheels. 225/45 R17’s tyres all round.
I’m on the latest Bridgestone Potenza RE050 A II. Was running 2.1/2.2 bar on the front, 2.6 rears. Increased the front to 2.3 bar, to eliminate the worst steering problems in colder temperatures.
To be totally honest, having lived with the RFT’s, I wish BMW hadn’t bothered. They spoil a good car. Bad when cold, constant ‘fidget’ on anything but a smooth surface, no straight line stability on some of our roads. The lack of stability almost feels as if you have a soft tyre. It is not like the ‘normal’ tram-lining, it is the strangest feeling, several times it has felt like ‘torque steer’ on a FWD high powered car. Very weird feeling. There’s the feeling you are on ice. There is a problem of crossing transverse ridges in the road. If you hit one in mid corner there is a definite unnerving ‘jump’ that normal rubber does not have.
The car is shaking/vibrating on anything but the best surfaces. The steering is unpredictable and the ride unnerving. As an example of the steering feel, hold the wheel in mid position and you can feel the wheels pulling left and right under you. It’s tugging on the wheel. Try and drive a smooth line through a bend and gently feed the steering, it can ‘suddenly’ take a bite and pull you in quite dramatically. Correct it and it can equally ‘snatch a bite’ the other way.
In wet weather it is worse, very unnerving.
Plus the strange and rapid tyre wear. The front tyres soon started to show a forward facing ‘saw tooth’ form on the outer tread block of both wheels. By 4,000-miles this was very pronounced, was also showing on the rear tyres as well. So I went to our local tyre shop for a visual inspection and comment. The guy reckoned as “all wheels” were showing a similar pattern it looked more like tyre wear, peculiar to the RFT’s, rather than an alignment problem.
Since then the outer tread block has become even more peculiar. Does look as if the tyres have been grossly under-inflated, but . from the outer groove there is now a ‘pronounced step’ to the outer tread blocks. From 7mm on the inner, continuous side of the groove, to 3.5 – 5mm on the open tread side of the groove. The insides are also wearing, but as there is an additional continuous band the pattern is different, but the ‘step’ is still there.
Have changed front wheels side to side, to reverse the wear pattern this has helped the noise levels, which were building up quite badly, but not changed anything else.
I’ve been on to BMW Customer Services UK, but to be honest a waste of time.
In the process of preparing to experiment with normal rubber. Putting on a set of Goodyear F1’s on another set of 17” rims.
Many guys in the UK are fitting GFT’s to 1/3/5-series, Z4, Mini, cars. Some with the support of the dealers.
BMW don’t want me to do it, but offer no other solution. I’ve asked for winter RFT’s (as the whole thing falls apart even more at lower ambient temperatures), but BMW UK do not support winter RFT’s in the UK!!!!! Bridgestone don’t even import their Blizzak to the UK. Sort of stuffed!
BMWland.co.uk forum members have changed to normal rubber with positive results. It’s a hot topic here as well.
IMO, BMW have messed up big time.
HighlandPete
I'm going with non-RFT's this time. The potential risk of having a flat (I haven't had one in year - knock on wood) doesn't outweight the fact that this car is no fun to drive with RFT's. I spend all my time thinking about the tires instead of driving the car!
With that said - any suggestions on non-RFT's for 330i non sport (225/45/R17)? I read the excellent article on the Kumho Ecsta ASX's and I am definitely leaning toward those. I'm also looking at the Michelin Pilot Sport A/S, Yokohama ADVAN S4, and the Sumitomo HTR+. Any suggestions from others who have gone to non-RFT's?
I think the RFT's will get better 'cause it can't get much worse than what has been reported so far internationally. Audi, Infinity and Lexus made a great tactical move by staying with the gft's.
Regards,
OW
I had occasion on a business trip to visit Lockerbie a year or so ago. Scotland is a place I wish to visit again, with more of my own time to spare.
I was getting 20k+ miles on 540i rear tyres, almost 30K miles on the fronts.
My RFT Bridgestones are awful, because the wear is knocking off the complete outer tread block. Not like 'normal' rubber wear.
HighlandPete
My dealer is in major discussions with BMW UK Technical Department tomorrow, at their garage, (Tuesday UK time).
There are 3 of us, unknown to each other, who are reporting almost identical driving scenarios. The issues of these 3 cars are being addressed for a solution. I hope to be able to report more, later this week, as to what BMW's 'solution' is proposed to be.
Meanwhile my GFT's should be fitted by Wednesday. Tyres are being mounted tomorrow and hopefully I'll be able to fit the wheels and try a decent bit of rubber again, Goodyear F1's.
HighlandPete
I just switched the OEM Bridgestone Turanze EL42s to Yokohama AVID H4S and bought the ContiComfortKit as a spare. So far, I've noticed much less tire noise and the impact harshness is much better. The tires are not nearly as heavy as the RFTs either. I got a note from Motor Week that the handling will suffer with GFTs because the car was tuned for RFTs but I haven't noticed any major difference and frankly, if you are not driving it at 9/10ths, it is a moot point. Good luck.
Reading the RFT thread, I am also considering change to GFT if I do get the 335i. My question is (1) would that affect warranty? (2) if I lease, am I required to return with RFT when lease is up? (3) what kind of mileage range can one expect from all-season GFT?
Any input will be greatly appreciated.
1 Normal tires will not impact warranty coverage at all.
2 You must return the car with RFTs
Best Regards,
Shipo
1) If anything, I would assume that the spring rate on cars meant to have factory RFTs would be increased over what it would have been if GFTs were intended for factory fitment.
2) In an effort to dampen out some of the hardness of the tires, I would assume that the shocks and struts would have increased capabilities as well.
I'm having a hard time finding any meaningful docs about what tuning for runflats means. The best I've managed is this:
The automakers have also started tuning their suspensions specifically for run-flats. One tweak is relaxing the “durometer,” or stiffness of the suspension bushings, to help cushion impacts that would better absorbed by a conventional tire.
at: Run-flat Link
Regards, NK
I've run across a few posts on other boards from folks who've been tracking their E90s, and in every case, those who've dumped the RFTs in favor of GFTs have, in every case, lowered their lap times. So much for negatively affecting the handling of the car. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
Best Regards,
Shipo
Undoubtedly why the Corvette Z06 and BMW M6 use GFTs. However, my car isn't likely to find its way to a track. For my more prosaic needs, the RE050As feel good, and I like the way the tires feel at the limit. I come back to the issues of practicality -- no spare, although I see issues with price and availability for now -- and pressure loss safety at higher speeds. I can't argue with your point about unsprung weight.
I absolutely agree, it's a trade-off with the E90 either way you look at it. I suppose the best of all worlds relative to security would be to have RFTs and a Spare Tire, while the best for those that drive at 10/10ths would be GFTs and a Spare Tire. Unfortunately neither of those options exist with the E90, and that is where the decision lies, does a person A) deal with the idiosyncrasies of the RFTs or, does he or she decide to dump the RFTs in favor of GFTs and a can of flat goo. I really don't think there is one correct answer for everyone, just individual choice. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
Sudden acceleration
First impressions I can steer again, without looking like an amateur.
Car is quieter, less tyre noise and generally less suspension intrusion. A strange sort of quiet I’m not used to in this car.
It wasn’t the best day to try a comparison, new tyres, sticky road and only 2 - 4°C, but enough to know with a bit of warmer weather, and tyres scuffed off a bit, should be pretty good. Although it bodes well, if it’s much better on summer tyres at 2°C.
I took it for about 25-miles on a road I’m driving several times a week. There were so many differences, I need to repeat it to take in all changes.
The crashing has gone, still a pretty firm ride, and steering so much more precise. No tram-lining, no taking its own line in corners, softening out the ridges, the vibration though the seat and car, gone as well. One or two places where it normally crashes badly, did sense it could be damped better, now the feeling is normal car stuff.
I need more time at the wheel to get a better feel for the dynamics. But I wouldn’t push it today with just a few miles on the tyres and the conditions not really what I wanted for the first try.
Update had the 'boss' with me this morning; she is amazed at the difference on familiar roads.
As passenger, she says it is the lack of noise that impresses first of all. That's what I found yesterday. She doesn't mean tyre noise, although that is so much better. It is the 'total noise', in the car, caused by the crashing/vibrations of the suspension, now 'felt' by its absence.
Now there is a smoothness and maturity the 330d NEVER had. So much more relaxed and peaceful 'and' planted on the road. The constant vibration through the car, felt through the seats and steering is totally gone, the steering wheel is now solid in feel. My wife says "it now feels safe". "No feelings of lurching about", believe this, "firmer on the road".
The Go-Kart sensation, of darting about, is thankfully gone. It steers with precision, flows and feeds through bends as this car has never done. It is clear the RFT's throw the car about, cause the feeling of an under damped/uncontrolled car. Then it is obvious really, the damping is at odds with the RF tyre behaviour.
I tried one of the worst bends we have near home, catches many out. It is an easy 60 -70mph bend in a decent BMW. The 330d would do it at 60mph (in the summertime, but unpredictable this time of year) in a sort of 'correct it mid bend' fashion. This morning it flowed through the bend with feel and a proper line, one I've not experienced in this car before.
Worth doing, you bet it is!!!
Shame there is no wheel well in the E90/1's. The biggest shout of complaint herein the UK there is no option!
Have mobility kit and jack,etc. will carry a spare when i'm out in the more remote Highlands. Not ideal but for a real BMW drive again it is worth it.
HighlandPete
Thanks.
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43594