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Hyundai Azera vs Toyota Avalon vs Ford Taurus vs Chevrolet Impala
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OK, I'll compare the two you mentioned. Let's just add a couple of features missing on the Avalon Touring model:
Adjustable pedals...oops, can't get those on the Avalon
Digital door-mounted keyless entry...no, can't get that either
Split-fold rear seat...nope
18" rims...ah, no Avalon Touring has 16's
Memory seats...no, not those either
Six-Speed tranny...how about a five-speed, it's almost as good
Rear parking sensors...well, no
How about 6-disc cd changer, compass, overhead console, Mp3 player, heated driver and passenger mirrors, Auto-dimming rearview mirror, wood trim - all no,no,no,no,no,no,no,no
Oh, that's right, you did say similar features to similar features. What I see is a bunch of features not available or optional (more cost) on the Avalon.
I believe Edmunds had the original comparison right comparing Limited to Limited and a $7,000 price difference. Also, many of the features listed are not available on the Avalon Limited either like adjustable pedals, digital door-mounted keyless entry, 18" rims, split-fold rear seat, MP3 player.
alpha, I'm not trying to convince you to buy a Five Hundred over an Avalon, which I don't think you would, I'm just trying to make sure that others who may be tuning in get the correct information.
As far as the Ford Dealer was concerned, all they had even close to an Avalon was a Five Hundred, so sure they'll show what they've got.
Obviously, the horsepower is lagging when you look at all of the horsepower ratings. Not everyone will buy based on that. Some will buy on safety features and roominess if that's what you are looking for. I don't need major horsepower in a family sedan. And, just because it doesn't have major horses, doesn't make it an inferior vehicle.
Yup, since the Five Hundred is the only sedan Ford has to compete with the Avalon, I'm sure that's what they will show the customer every time. And with a peppier engine, the Five Hundred would even be a viable competitor performance-wise.
I actually don't shop based solely on HP ratings myself. It just surprised both my wife and I how much less powerful and responsive the Five Hundred felt compared to the Avalon and the Maxima.
And even though we've already made our purchasing decision, I am going to take an Azera for a test drive to see if I should kick myself in the butt for not waiting for it to arrive.
In my comparison, I added the JBL 6 disc in dash CD changer to the price of the Avalon Touring. The Avalon Touring wears 17 in. tires, not 16, and those provide more adhesion according to C/D than do the 18s worn on the Five Hundred. The Ford's 6 speed auto has been WIDELY criticized in the Five Hundred, where as the 5sp in the Avalon has not, so I fail to see how its an advantage (espcially since the Avalon provides better MPG). I did not included Rear Parking Sensors in the price of the Limited I spec-ed out. Finally, the adjustable pedals strike me as a wash, b/c all Avalons come with a steering wheel that telescopes (along with providing redundant audio AND climate control). Which trim level of Five Hundred has the telescopic steering wheel? I dont know...
The Limited has many features available at 38K which the Five Hundred fails to offer and they're a bit more major than "digital door mounted keyless entry". Things like Remote Start, Dynamic Laser Cruise Control, Vehicle Stability Control (oh, but who wants a 35% reduction in single vehicle fatalities anyway?)
~alpha
- the standard 17", 215/55 Michelins
- the standard real engine
- genuine plastic aluminum trim instead of genuine plastic wood
- 6 CD in dash JBL option
- auto dim mirror w/homelink option
- directional flashers in side mirrors option
- standard leather, overhead console
- moonroof option
as bad as that 6 speed is, would rather have my 5 (or ly even that CVT) and what would you want digital keyless entry for - haven't used anything other than a key fob to get into my 2 cars trunks in years. The car stickered at $31K - and I was lucky to get a whole $1500.00 off of it last April. With those rebates and incentives, you should be able to buy two 500's for the same price or you are getting ripped off. But you are right about one thing - the two cars are not comparable!
Destination Charge on Avalon Limited is $120 less than Five Hundred Limited FWD.
The Curb Weight (Automatic Trans.) on the Avalon Limited is 43 Pounds Less than on the Five Hundred Limited FWD.
The Powertrain Warranty on the Avalon Limited is 60 months while on the Five Hundred Limited FWD it is 36 months.
The Powertrain Warranty on the Avalon Limited is 60000 miles while on the Five Hundred Limited FWD it is 36000 miles.
Avalon Limited has 65 more Horsepower than Five Hundred Limited FWD.
Avalon Limited has 41 more Torque Foot Pounds than Five Hundred Limited FWD.
The EPA Fuel Economy (City) of the Avalon Limited is 22 while it is 21 on the Five Hundred Limited FWD.
The EPA Fuel Economy (Highway) of the Avalon Limited is 31 while it is 29 on the Five Hundred Limited FWD.
The Combined Fuel Economy of the Avalon Limited is 25 while it is 24 on the Five Hundred Limited FWD.
The Cruising Range of the Avalon Limited is 463 while it is 456 on the Five Hundred Limited FWD.
Electronic Brake Assistance is Optional on the Avalon Limited while Not Available on the Five Hundred Limited FWD.
Vehicle Stability Control System is Optional on the Avalon Limited while Not Available on the Five Hundred Limited FWD.
Tow Hitch Receiver is Optional on the Avalon Limited while Not Available on the Five Hundred Limited FWD.
A Cassette Player is Standard on the Avalon Limited while Not Available on the Five Hundred Limited FWD.
A Radio Data System or Radio Display System is Standard on the Avalon Limited while Not Available on the Five Hundred Limited FWD.
A Diversity Radio Antenna is Standard on the Avalon Limited while Not Available on the Five Hundred Limited FWD.
An In Glass Radio Antenna is Standard on the Avalon Limited while Not Available on the Five Hundred Limited FWD.
Rear Seat Climate Controls are Standard on the Avalon Limited while Not Available on the Five Hundred Limited FWD.
Sunroof/Moonroof is Standard on the Avalon Limited while Optional on the Five Hundred Limited FWD.
Power Sunroof/Moonroof is Standard on the Avalon Limited while Optional on the Five Hundred Limited FWD.
Front Cooled Seat is Standard on the Avalon Limited while Not Available on the Five Hundred Limited FWD.
Second Row Reclining Seat is Standard on the Avalon Limited while Not Available on the Five Hundred Limited FWD.
Second Row Fold-Down Armrest is Standard on the Avalon Limited while Not Available on the Five Hundred Limited FWD.
Telescopic Steering Column is Standard on the Avalon Limited while Not Available on the Five Hundred Limited FWD.
Front Side Airbag is Standard on the Avalon Limited while Optional on the Five Hundred Limited FWD.
Side Head Curtain Airbags are Standard on the Avalon Limited while Optional on the Five Hundred Limited FWD.
Universal Garage Door Opener is Standard on the Avalon Limited while Optional on the Five Hundred Limited FWD.
Remote Ignition is Optional on the Avalon Limited while Not Available on the Five Hundred Limited FWD.
Remote Fuel Door Release is Standard on the Avalon Limited while Not Available on the Five Hundred Limited FWD.
Intelligent Cruise Control is Optional on the Avalon Limited while Not Available on the Five Hundred Limited FWD.
Service or Maintenance Interval Indicator is Standard on the Avalon Limited while Not Available on the Five Hundred Limited FWD.
The Avalon Limited is 3.0 inch(es) Shorter than the Five Hundred Limited FWD.
Full Size Spare Tire is Standard on the Avalon Limited while Not Available on the Five Hundred Limited FWD.
High Intensity Discharge Headlights are Standard on the Avalon Limited while Not Available on the Five Hundred Limited FWD.
Rain Sensing Wipers are Standard on the Avalon Limited while Not Available on the Five Hundred Limited FWD.
Rear Spoiler is Optional on the Avalon Limited while Not Available on the Five Hundred Limited FWD.
F-150 blows the doors off of the Tundra
Fusion is "comparable" to Camry
Freestyle is "comparable" to Highlander
So there!
F150 sucks
Fusion is still behind the imports
Freestyle blows compare to the Highlander
F-150 blows the doors off of the Tundra
Fusion is "comparable" to Camry
Freestyle is "comparable" to Highlander
So there!
Uhhh?!!
Car and Driver picked the Fusion over the Camry. But, who are they?
Freestyle versus Highlander, my opinion.
Actually, the Five Hundred LTD does have RDS on the radio. A lot of people don't know about it, because you have to read the manual to know how to access it. Basically, you have to press and HOLD the Menu button on the radio. THEN (and only then) can you turn on the RDS system.
"Remote Ignition is Optional on the Avalon Limited while Not Available on the Five Hundred Limited FWD."
This is available as a dealer add-on.
"Service or Maintenance Interval Indicator is Standard on the Avalon Limited while Not Available on the Five Hundred Limited FWD. "
I'm not sure what that involves, exactly. However, the Five Hundred LTD does have an "oil life indicator", which is nothing more than a warning that comes on every 3,000 miles or 3 months (I think I have the mileage and time correct, but I may be off) to tell you that the oil should be changed. You have to reset it at each oil change. And you can check it, too . . it will indicate a % left of the oil life (again, based on the simple model of x miles and y months).
"Vehicle Stability Control System is Optional on the Avalon Limited while Not Available on the Five Hundred Limited FWD. "
Well, you can always get the AWD, instead. Which (IMO) is better than(or certainly as good as) VSC or ESP or whatever the various manufacturers call it.
"A Cassette Player is Standard on the Avalon Limited while Not Available on the Five Hundred Limited FWD. "
Almost as useful as an 8-track player.
I actually looked at the Highlander (and the Lexus RX330), and the Freestyle made a lot more sense, IMO.
I was also considering the Dodge Magnum (with the Hemi), but decided against it. But I would've bought that before the Highlander.
FWIW, I have driven a Magnum with the 3.5L in it, and I could tell it was more powerful (slightly) than the Five Hundred or Freestyle. But I never used that extra power for anything.
As a caveat to my stand that the Five Hundred (and Freestyle) are NOT underpowered, I would certainly agree that they are underpowered IF you intend to tow with your vehicle. At best, they are barely adequate for that (depending on your towin load . . must be under 2,000 pounds).
Curious, isnt it?
But, the Five Hundred does have that trunk space and those great head restraints!
Personally, the Azera is what Ford should worry about; the Avalon already kills the Five Hundred from the high end folks. Now, theres competition at the low end- with better power and more standard safety features with a lower price tag and similar room.
My rankings, (admittedly, I havent driven the Azera or the Impalas, but was duly unimpressed with the dogged Fives)
Avalon Touring
Azera
Avalon XL, XLS, Limited
Impala 3.9L
Impala 3.5L
Five Hundred
~alpha
My brother has a Freestyle. Calls it his mistake.
F150 is a winner tho.
So, the Azera effectively answers that. It's an incredible value, with more standard safety features than either the Avalon or most certainly the Five Hundred.
What are the convincing reasons why anyone should buy the Five Hundred over the Azera? I certainly cant think of any... better power, similar room, more features, standard side curtains, electronic stability control, better MPG, longer warranty with the Azera.
I say, good for Hyundai.
When's that 3.5L going to be ready for the Five Hundred? Oh, right.... not soon enough.
~alpha
I tend to think it's because Toyota owners aren't all that bright.
Suffice it to say that whenever I've bought a new vehicle, I've considered the Japanese counterparts (and once a Subaru, and once a Dodge or two), but I've always found that I preferred the Ford product.
On top of that, my brothers have always driven Toyotas and Hondas, with similar vehicles, and I just haven't seen any personal evidence of them being any better vehicles than the Fords.
I'd have to say that Ford products have improved tremendously since the early 80's and late 70's, while Japanese vehicles have come down in quality (though by not all THAT much). That can probably be mainly attributed to the fact that the newer Japanese vehicles are simply more complex than the econo-boxes of two decades ago, though some would argue it's because they're now put together in the US.
I will say, though, that I didn't really comparison shop against anything when I got the Ford Five Hundred . . but there's a reason for that. I had already done comparison shopping when I got the Freestyle earlie this year. And I was so impressed with the Freestyle (and the later employee pricing by Ford didn't hurt, either) that I decided to sell my Taurus and get the sedan equivalent of the Freestyle, which was the Five Hundred.
Prior to these two vehicles, I had owned a combination of a Taurus sedan and Taurus wagon for 10 years . . . and I liked having both cars be so similar to each other. Made for easy switching back and forth.
I wanted that same thing when I got my Freestyle. It was so different than the Taurus that I had a hard time switching between them.
That's one other thing to say about the Five Hundred vs. the other vehicles in this thread: the seat height is further off the ground. Not as high as a mini-van, but definitely higher than a typical sedan. I don't have to step up into it, nor do I have to "sit down" into it. I just sorts "slide on over" into it.
That's something I really like . . though it makes the sedan a bit less "sporty" . . . which is fine with me.
Somebody mentioned that the Five Hundred felt like driving a "boat". I wouldn't put it in this category at all. It's nothing like driving a Town Car, for example. There's still ample "road feel" IMO in the Five Hundred, something that was completely lacking in the Town Car . . at least the last time I drove one, which was about 20 years ago. LOL. I have, however, RIDDEN in one since then, and it still seems to lack any road feel. OK for passengers, but I prefer more road feel as the driver.
Ample road feel? Time to do the reversal.
I tend to think it's because Ford owners have skinny butt.
Several months ago on a Sunday morning, I happened to catch "Autoline Detroit", an industry insider show on the Speed Channel(Thank God something other than NASCAR). The special guest of the show was a female (sorry I don't recall her name) who was in charge of the entire Ford 500 program. When the automotive journalists on the panel grilled her, my jaw nearly hit the floor. The journalists had realistic concerns about the new 500, mainly the insufficient powerplant and the front wheel drive platform. All she could say in response was "It will have command, theater seating, and a really big trunk!" The same mantra was repeated over and over. For the sake of my family members, I new Ford was in deep trouble. This lady had no clue about what a "driver's" car is, and until Ford gets some real car people in charge of this program, it will continue to lag behind the competion.
My Lincoln LS in 2000 was an awesome car, but I now get the same package/performance with much better fuel economy in my BMW. I will continue to support Ford trucks, but until they give the LS a 6speed manual or make a rear drive platform performance sedan, my Mark LT will share the garage with BMW.
Ford of Europe has some exciting products, but they evidently feel Americans aren't sophisticated enough for them.....
I would describe the Five Hundred's ride and handling the same as I would the Avalon Limited; "buoyant". A soft, but not too soft, ride and noticable body lean when pushed through curves. Not bad, but certainly not inspiring.
Toyota sure heard the 'music', the engine in the Avalon being the first high performance V6 Toyota has done - it changed the entire character of a car. They are now putting this engine in the Camry so it should blow away the V6 Altimas and Accords, not to mention already using the same engine in the Lexus IS (at 300+ hp) to blow away the BMWs. Chrysler, in the meanwhile, is producing better engines (300 3.5) maybe with a little help from MB, and GM is beginning to at least tinker with that DOHC 3.6 liter in the LaCrosse. Even 'little' Hyundai can develop drivetrains, that are certainly competitive. Ford must be deaf!
Unless you have driven all on the list, don't waste the post.
Have I driven all on the list, except the Azera and my ranking looks a little different than yours.
Was actually on my way to start negotiations on a $36k G35, stopped by Toyota on a lark. Am a real car nut and I am ashamed to say that I had no idea what Toyota had done to the Avalon 2 months earlier. I was absolutely floored with the test drive and probably would have paid over sticker for the $31k Touring I ended up with had the dealer wanted it. The other trims also wonderful, just softer and more luxurious, and I wasn't willing to give up all of that 'sports feel'.
8 months and 17k miles later, the Touring is easily the best car I've ever owned, that engine is something that might be worth killing for, and it is one of the few cars I've ever had that I look forward to driving every day!
Fair enough, but it seems there are plenty here who echo the general sentiment, based on the responses recently.
"Have I driven all on the list, except the Azera and my ranking looks a little different than yours."
I dont know, have you driven all on the list?
~alpha
And yes, "I have" driven all on the list, except Azera. (That's what I get for working and chatting at the same time.)
That's probably because it is such a glaring deficiency.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Would you actually tell someone they made a stupid purchase decision after they bought a particular vehicle? To each his own.
If people are going to participate in open debate and challenge the opinions of others, they should probably have some thick skin, too.
I don't think anyone has said that the Five Hundred is not a fine family car. Perhaps that is the problem. Most cars it is being shopped against are not mere family cars.
Not I.
It will be interesting, though, to see if sales of the Five Hundred really do increase much when the 3.5L is introduced in that vehicle in MY2008.
I actually think that larger engines are going to be LESS desireable in the somewhat near future, if only because of energy prices.
And, yes, I know that the 3.5L's actually get similar gas mileage (and somewhat higher in some cases) than the 3.0L's . . but that's only under EPA tests. If one actually USES all that extra power in the engine, the actual mpg will be less than that of a smaller engine.
I also think that the idea of a "driver's car" in a family sedan is a bit silly. The longer I've thought about it (over the years), the more silly I think it is.
I'm not against having "more than adequate power" (which I think the 500 has) . . but the idea of having "muscle car power" in a family sedan, while an interesting idea at first blush, just doesn't REALLY seem to make much sense to me.
To me, it's more of a marketing tool . . and it may very well be effective . . . at least for a while. I almost got suckered into it when I was looking at the Dodge Magnum RT.
Probably one of the more honest assesments I've seen in a review with regards to the "underpowered 500" is here:
http://www.familycar.com/RoadTests/FordFiveHundred/
"On the down side, power was notably lacking with only one engine being offered, the old standby Ford Duratec 3.0 liter V6 packing a measly 203 horsepower. Oh, the engine was smooth and responsive at light and medium throttle, but it lacked the oomph that we have grown to expect from cars in this class. Please remember that automotive journalists always want more power, but for the average person who would be interested in this type of car, the power output of this engine is more than adequate for any type of driving they might do. Since most of the competition for the Five Hundred has available engines with more power and torque than this engine possesses, I expect that Ford will remedy this shortcoming in the next year or two."
I could agree with that assessment. Though it does seem to have less body lean than my Tauri did. However, it's noticebly smoother and quieter than the Tauri, too. But there's still enough road feel so that I don't feel like I'm driving on a sheet of ice all the time (like I felt when I drove a Town Car).
I don't think the car needs more power to do what it's supposed to do, but I do believe you will see an increase in sales when the 3.5L is introduced.
but the only true price of any car is its cash price.
Wrong, wrong, and I say again wrong. The true price of any car is what the cash flow out is. The true price is a combination of cash price plus down payment plus interest on the difference and the term of the loan. The only time the cash price is the true price of a car is when you pay fully in cash. And even then you have opportunity costs (but we wont get into that).
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Basically true . . when I got the Freestyle, in addition to Employee Pricing less $500 rebate, I also got 3 years financing at 0% interest. I could've paid cash for the vehicle. Instead, I put the money into a CD that had a pretty good yield on it.
If nothing else, the auto journalists will love it more.
Though I suspect they'll manage to find something ELSE to complain about on it. LOL
I really don't think the Five Hundred was meant to compete "head to head" with cars that are more "sports sedans". I would think somebody who truly wanted a "sport sedan" would be put-off by the higher CG and seat height of the Five Hundred, for example.
I'd probably opt for the larger engine, IF it wasn't too expensive. But I'd have to weigh the practical benefits (primarily higher towing capability) against things like NOT having the CVT. The current CVT can't handle the torque of a 3.5L. I also believe that the AWD would have to be redesigned to handle the larger engine.
I think it's safe to say that those shopping for the Five Hundred aren't really looking for a "sports sedan". Or at least not the sportiest sports sedan.
Maybe I'm just getting lazy, but I don't like having to crawl UP out of other sedans any more. I like just sliding out of my current vehicles.
I know this car isn't on the list, but a friend of mine has the Acura TL. Nice car, but it's tough getting out of the back seat.
The British are probably laughing at all of us, anyway. We should be driving SMALL cars with MANUAL transmissions if we want "driver's cars". At least that's what they tell ME. LOL
The cash price comment more because it is the only way I know of to eliminate the financial shenanigans and games the dealers and mfgrs. play. About the worst thing you can do is go into a dealer and tell him 'I can afford $600/month' 'I want that Avalon' and especially bad 'I also have this '00 Corolla that I still owe $2000.00 on for my trade'. Get that cash price first, and then work on trade values and financing arrangements later - otherwise you may never know what you really paid.
That all and said what you said makes sense but it still comes down to what the outward cash flow is, not what the sales contract says.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
We have leased or owned several vehicles over the last 20 years, and soon came to the realization that buying a car at lease end can be a smart move. Our Buick Regal had a residual price that far exceeded the current market value, GMAC would not negotiate, so the Regal was not purchased. Our Saab 9-3, on the other hand, was a good buy at several thousands below market price, and we have purchased it. A fairly superficial financial analysis leads us to believe that we have just about broken even versus if we had originally purchased the car new, but we were never saddled with the large down payment that goes with buying. In addition, after 4 years we know our car very well, and have a confidence in our vehicle that does not necessarily come with buying a used car of unknown history.
But, the effective APR on leases will always be higher than on a purchase especially with the mfgrs. buying down of interest rates (on purchases) and I do know a lot of people that have to limit their driving (even to the point of renting cars) because the overuse penalties are usually outrageous. I think a dealer would prefer to lease a car than sell it - more front end profit, more opportunity to manipulate rates and residuals, and they usually get a low mileage car back in good condition on which they can really make a killing. If you accept this last part as being true, why lease - if it is good for them to own the car during that lease, wouldn't also be good for you?
We got a real good up-front deal (no down payment, forgiveness of a couple of lease payments on the previous car) and probably paid for this when Saab set a fairly low value on the residual, meaning our monthly payments were higher. We carried a lease on an Avalon over the same time period, and the Avalon was a better monthly lease because of a higher residual. Will we buy the Avalon at lease end? With a high residual, possibly not.
But we are straying a little far afield here - agree that cars like the 500 and Impala will likely be good buys used (per mile basis) because of what I would guess to be a higher depreciation rate. The Avalon, of course, will be relatively expensive (as it is new); the Azera may be good enough to do what Korean cars have not generally been able to do - hold value.
I am going to ask for 3 yr or 39 months with 15k or 18k miles a year. Thanks.