The world's largest automaker had smaller discounts on 2010 model year vehicles compared with its competitors, said Ivan Drury, an Edmunds.com analyst.
“If you go into a dealership expecting a huge discount on 2010s versus 2011s and there really isn't that much of an incentive difference, you might look toward another automaker that does provide that huge gap in incentives,” Drury said. “Toyota has one of the smallest gaps of the Big 6.”
The volume sellers for Toyota are all low margin vehicles, so i don't find that too surprising. Also, many of the other manufacturers have upgraded their lineups for 2011, so they want to get rid of the 2010's.
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Good point. Toyota seems to lower the quality each year, making the older model more desirable. I know that is why I bought the 2007 Sequoia in its last year. I hated what they did to the 2008 Sequoia.
Sounds like more excuses for lousy October sales figures. An unsold vehicle is just that. Taking up space on a lot instead of money in the bank.
I kind of agree on that one. I haven't liked the Camry since the 2001 model year. I have two friends who have a 2001 and a 2000, they have been super reliable, no rattles in the interior, still run great, and the quality for that time was pretty good.
I was just at my local Toyota dealer the other day looking at Camry's and Rav 4's. I could not believe the difference between that 2011 and the 2001/2000 I was in not too long ago. Misaligned cheap plastic all over the center console, dash, doors, etc. Two pieces in the center console were still loose and detachable and the material quality was just not there anymore. I really hope Toyota gets the message and redoes the Camry good next year for the next generation b/c its in bad need of improvements across the board in my opinion.
And if I really meet such a cute polar bear like that hugging me, I'll invite him into my home and become my permanent pet. That big size sure will discourage thieves !
But why would the American carmakers want to do that ? Shoot their own backyard customers with crap versions ? Do they ENJOY losing sales to other brands here in the big US car market ?
>Toyota seems to lower the quality each year, making the older model more desirable.
I think of your 2007 purchase every time I see toyota's advertisement about someone, somewhere judged their 2007 camry as better quality than two other 2010 cars.
Take a look at the top 20 selling vehicles in Oct:
Rank Model 2010 Oct % change 1 Ford F - Series PU 49,041 24.2 2 Chevrolet Silverado PU 34,283 8.0 3 Toyota Camry / Solara 25,014 -17.0 4 Honda Accord 21,451 -7.6 5 Nissan Altima 18,978 28.5 6 Toyota Corolla / Matrix 18,636 -27.5 7 Honda CR-V 18,040 15.1 8 Hyundai Sonata 17,505 124.7 9 Ford Fusion 17,362 29.1 10 Dodge Ram PU 17,316 41.2 11 Honda Civic 17,121 7.9 12 Toyota RAV4 14,694 5.2 13 Ford Escape 14,578 16.9 14 GMC Sierra PU 12,983 9.2 15 Chevrolet Equinox 12,773 62.3 16 Jeep Grand Cherokee 12,721 290.7 17 Ford Focus 12,396 22.5 18 Chevrolet Impala 12,389 -2.6 19 Chevrolet Malibu 12,353 2.2 20 Volkswagen Jetta 11,958 31.8
The Toyota and Honda top models are the biggest losers. This is while Toyota throws in 2-year free maintenance, lower lease cost than 10 years ago, and the highest incentives of their 2011 models in the industry (see my previous post).
They had 2 years' free maintenance on Toyotas, but not Lexus models, and that just wasn't matching up with competitor offers
True BMW is the biggest competitor of Lexus, and they give 4 years, 50,000 mile total maintenance. It was the super high cost of maintenance at El Cajon Lexus that first turned me off on Lexus. Then building vehicles that were not attractive to my wife and myself sealed their fate in our case. Lexus was a good idea when they started. Too bad they did not keep up the good work.
The fact that Toyota/Lexus is offering give away leases and 0% financing is a pretty big clue that the game has changed for them. Their product lineup is day old bread.
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Only problem is, your indirectly paying for that free 4 yr/50k maintenance with BMW through their higher price premium's for similarly equipped features compared to Lexus, Infiniti, and Acura.
If anything Mercedes is the biggest competitor to Lexus in regards to driving focus and comfort luxury philosphy. If anything, Infiniti and Audi are bigger competitors to BMW since they have more of a luxury sport oriented mission.
It does look ridiculous though for Toyota to offer the 2 yr/20k free maintenance and not Lexus :confuse:
HANS GREIMEL How Toyota tripped in China November 4, 2010 - 2:34 pm ET
TOKYO -- It’s bad enough that Toyota’s sales slid 4 percent in the United States last month while the overall market jumped 13 percent.But more damning still is the Japanese carmaker’s 6 percent drop in sales in China.
If the world’s biggest automaker can’t ride the ever-building wave of sales growth in the world’s biggest auto market, the company must be suffering some serious engine knock.
But indeed, Toyota’s sales slumped to 61,600 units in China in October for their first year-on-year decline since April 2009. The retreat underlined Toyota’s tough slog in China.
Toyota is playing catch-up to China’s market leaders: General Motors, Volkswagen and Hyundai. But this year’s recall troubles, combined with political tensions between Beijing and Tokyo, may be tripping up a company that, to many Chinese, has come to symbolize Japan Inc.
China’s total industry sales in October aren’t out yet. Overall demand may have actually contracted. But that seems unlikely. The country’s insatiable appetite for wheels drove passenger-car sales 41 percent higher to 8.53 million through September.
Including October’s results, Toyota’s sales in China were still up 17 percent for the year. But why they lagged the market and then slid into reverse is the worrying question.
Toyota didn’t offer any explanations. But some possible theories seem clear.
First, Toyota is still hurting from this year’s recall crisis. In China, Toyota can’t lean on a long history of customer loyalty because many customers are first-time buyers. If a brand gets a black eye in China, customers are more apt to pass it by and look at the competition.
Second, the recent outbreak of anti-Japanese nationalism in China is likely hitting a company many see as the archetypal Japanese corporate entity. The diplomatic tensions, over disputed islets in the East China Sea, are spurring calls to boycott Japanese goods in China.
No matter the reasons, October’s stumble hasn’t discouraged Toyota. Its 2010 China sales target of 800,000 vehicles remains intact -- representing a 5.3 percent increase over last year.
Though anti Japanese may play a part, I don't think its the main factor, after all, you don't get reports of Nissan and Honda also slipping. Nissan in fact has become the biggest Japanese brand in China, though still behind GM, VW and Hyundai.
So you see folks, the Chinese have awaken to the fact that toyota's so called superb quality is a myth. They realized that GM, VW, Hyundai and Nissan's quality is better.
Time for Americans to wake up too ! Forget about jd power and CR !
TOKYO—Powered by a fierce hunger for cars in China, Nissan Motor Co. posted a nearly fourfold increase in net profit in the fiscal second quarter and said it expects to sell a record number of vehicles world-wide this fiscal year.
Nissan, which also lifted its full-year outlook, joins fellow Japanese auto makers Honda Motor Co. and Mazda Motor Corp. in reporting solid July-September earnings and higher forecasts.
But the optimistic appraisals so far have been tempered by warnings from Nissan and others that the yen's recent strength might dent their profit margins in the second half of the fiscal year through March. Industry leader Toyota Motor Corp. is report its interim results on Friday.
Nissan, Japan's second-largest car manufacturer by volume, said its net profit rose to 101.7 billion yen ($1.25 billion) in the three months ended Sept. 30 from 25.5 billion yen a year earlier. Revenue rose 21% to 2.269 trillion yen.
The strong performance prompted Nissan to raise its full-year net-profit forecast to 270 billion yen from 150 billion yen. It also boosted its full-year outlook for global vehicle sales to 4.1 million vehicles. The new forecast is up from an initial projection of 3.8 million vehicles and the most since fiscal 2007, when Nissan sold 3.77 million autos.
"Looking forward to the second half of this fiscal year, we recognize headwinds in the macro environment that are beyond our control, including risks associated with the appreciation of the yen," Nissan Chief Operating Officer Toshiyuki Shiga said at a news conference.
Nissan's sales were strongest in Asia during the most recent quarter, and rose in most of the markets the auto maker targets. Asia outside of Japan posted the sharpest rise as sales increased 40% to 327,000 vehicles. China made up the bulk of those sales, with a 39% gain to 260,000 vehicles thanks to demand for Nissan's compact Sylphy and midsize Teana sedans.
In Japan, sales rose 13% to 191,000 vehicles. By comparison, sales in Europe and the U.S. rose at a more modest pace, with European sales up 5.3% to 136,000 vehicles and North American sales up 2.9% to 302,000.
Reflecting its continuing concern about the Japanese currency's recent surge toward 80 yen to the dollar, Nissan said it expects net profit in the second half to account for only 23% of its revised annual-net-profit forecast of 270 billion yen. That caution echoed similarly conservative estimates from Honda, Mazda and Suzuki Motor Corp.
A stronger yen tends to erode income earned overseas when translated into yen, and can make vehicles built in Japan less price-competitive outside Japan. However, the yen's surge over the past six months didn't prove to be an insurmountable hurdle in the fiscal first half. And despite Nissan's warnings about the yen, analysts said the company isn't likely to have much difficulty beating its full-year profit number.
"Margins are bound to be under pressure in the second half," said Kurt Sanger, an analyst at Deutsche Securities in Tokyo. "But Nissan should be able to easily beat its forecast of a 3.4% [operating-profit] margin [in the October-March period]." Mr. Sanger pointed to Nissan's revenue gain in the most recent quarter as a particularly good omen because it signaled that sales-growth momentum remains strong.
Nissan's operating profit doubled to 167 billion yen from 83.3 billion yen.
For the current fiscal year through March, Nissan boosted its forecast for operating profit to 485 billion yen from 350 billion yen, and revenue to 8.77 trillion yen from 8.2 trillion yen. That outlook is based on an assumption that the dollar will average 80 yen and the euro 110 yen for the second half. The company bases its earnings on Japanese accounting standards.
So folks, whoever said toyota sales slowed in China (like in the US), is because of anti-Japanese sentiment, look again. Why is it that Nissan's car sales in China increased 39% !! While toyota dropped in the same period ?
Its because Chinese consumers realized that Nissan is a much more trustworthy car maker than toyota, and that Nissan's quality is far better than toyota, despite what jd and CR says. And look at the numbers, it turns out that Nissan is actually BIGGER than Honda worldwide totalled.
Then why is it that in the US, Nissan appears to be so looked down upon and treated as a mediocre quality brand ? Is it because again, like VW, so big in China and worldwide, Jd power puts Nissan, VW, below toyota and honda in the rankings chart ?
Even in Japan, Nissan and Honda are at about the same strength in terms of sales. Now it seems Nissan has overtaken Honda to take the no.2 Japanese carmaker spot worldwide.
Hyundai also did very very well in China, growing so big that they are now bigger than Nissan, Honda, and toyota. Hyundai IS getting SCARY, for the competition.
Toyota Canada Inc. saw a steep 22.7 per cent decline in its October sales across its three brands compared with a year ago as the automaker continues to struggle in the aftermath of a series of recalls.
Toyota vehicles, separate from Lexus and Scion brands, fell nearly 25 per cent compared with a year ago, and its Acura sales (this could be a typo, Acura is Honda's brand right ?) fell more than 16 per cent during the month.
The sales declines come despite the introduction of the Scion brand at 46 dealerships in Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal. In total, Toyota sold just 247 Scions in its first full month of sales. The manufacturer plans to expand its store-within-a-store Scion dealership network by next spring by 40.
Toyota Canada's sales are down 12.4 per cent to 150,119 vehicles year to date, from 171,295 units it had sold by the same point in 2009.
The troubles at Toyota stand in stark contrast to most of its main competitors, which saw sales increase during October compared with a year ago.
Ford Motor Company of Canada Ltd., for example, said its October sales increased eight per cent compared with the same period last year -- its best showing for the month in 11 years.
Meanwhile, General Motors Canada's sales on its four core brands improved more than 11 per cent in October to 17,912 units, from 16,126 a year ago.
Year-to-date, GM Canada's sales on its continuing brands are up nearly 22 per cent compared with the same period in 2009.
Could the tide be turning ? But obviously people like Katsuaki Watanabe is still enjoying his big pay check at toyota's board of directors till now. Wonder why nobody bothered to boot this guy out ?
Could it be because toyota thinks what Katsuaki Watanabe has done is NOT enough ? And that MORE cost cutting needs to be done, even chop the bone to pieces ? Thats why he is retained as a toyota director ?
Could this be a sign that finally, more Americans are throwing away their JD Power and CR magazines into the dustbin and buying from the honorable car makers ? I have in the past stated Nissan, Hyundai and Honda are much more trustworthy than toyota. Now, Folks, read this pls :
Hyundai, Honda Lead Asian Automakers' U.S. October Sales Gains
By Alan Ohnsman - Nov 4, 2010 6:26 AM GMT+0700
Hyundai Motor Co., Honda Motor Co. and Nissan Motor Co. led U.S. sales gains for Asian carmakers as higher retail demand made October the best month for deliveries in more than a year. Toyota Motor Corp. reported a decline.
Honda and Nissan both had 16 percent increases for the month, while Seoul-based Hyundai reported a 38 percent gain. Toyota’s sales fell 4.4 percent as demand shifted to light trucks from cars, such as its Camry and Corolla models, said Bob Carter, the company’s U.S. group vice president.
“Consumers who have a job are feeling a little bit better and not fearing every Friday anymore,” said Rebecca Lindland, an analyst at researcher IHS Automotive in Lexington, Massachusetts. “They feel like the worst is over and they’re starting to trickle back into showrooms.”
Industrywide light-vehicle sales rose to a 12.3 million annual rate in October, researcher Autodata Corp. said yesterday. That’s the fastest since the U.S. government’s “cash for clunkers” incentive program lifted the pace to 14.2 million in August 2009. The average of nine analysts’ estimates compiled by Bloomberg was for the rate to reach 11.9 million last month.
Japanese and South Korean brands raised sales a combined 12 percent, less than the industry’s 13 percent increase, according to Woodcliff Lake, New Jersey-based Autodata. Sales to individual retail buyers, rather than business and commercial fleets, were notably stronger last month, Toyota’s Carter said.
“Most of the industry growth has been on the fleet side of the business,” Carter said on a conference call yesterday. “This is the first month that we’ve seen retail perform better than fleet.”
Fleet Sales
Sales to fleets were at least 21 percent of U.S. volume through September, according to industry forecaster J.D. Power & Associates. J.D. Power hasn’t yet calculated the fleet sales rate through October, said John Tews, a company spokesman.
U.S. automakers General Motors Co., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler Group LLC have been the main beneficiaries of fleet demand this year. GM’s sales last month rose 3.5 percent, Ford’s grew 15 percent and Chrysler had a 37 percent increase.
Toyota, the world’s largest automaker, sold 145,474 Toyota, Lexus and Scion brand vehicles last month, down from 152,165 a year earlier. Gains were strongest for models including Highlander, 4Runner and FJ Cruiser sport-utility vehicles, while Yaris, Camry and Corolla cars and Prius hybrids all posted declines.
Luxury Autos
Lexus expanded its lead in U.S. luxury auto sales over Daimler AG’s Mercedes-Benz and Bayerische Motoren Werke AG’s BMW brand. Lexus sales grew 8.1 percent to 21,091 vehicles, aided by increased incentives.
Toyota City, Japan-based Toyota’s market share dropped 2.9 percentage points from a year ago to 15.3 percent, according to Autodata.
Honda, based in Tokyo, boosted deliveries of Honda and Acura brand autos to 98,811 units from 85,502. Gains came from the new Odyssey minivan, sales of which rose 47 percent from a year ago. The company is also being helped by increased use of low-cost leases, said Jesse Toprak, vice president of industry trends for Santa Monica, California-based TrueCar.com.
“Honda’s got a good lineup for current market conditions and has some very attractive lease deals,” Toprak said. “They have also been more aggressive on overall incentives.”
Improved retail demand may have benefited Honda more than competitors because it’s among the least reliant on fleet sales in the U.S. This year, only about 3 percent of Honda’s volume went to fleets, spokesman Jon Fitzsimmons said.
Resale Values
“On a retail basis, our sales are on par with or exceed the best of the competition,” said Kurt Antonius, a spokesman for Honda’s U.S. unit. “Fleet sales are simply not part of our sales strategy because it can undermine resale values.”
Honda’s market share was 10.4 percent last month, up 0.2 percentage point from a year ago, according to Autodata.
Nissan said it sold 69,773 Nissan and Infiniti vehicles, up from 60,115 a year ago. The Yokohama, Japan-based company boosted sales of Altima sedans 28 percent and benefited from the addition of the compact Juke crossover vehicle.
Industry sales will likely end up at about 12 million units this year, lower than Nissan’s initial expectation of about 12.2 million, Al Castignetti, vice president of North American sales for Nissan, said in an interview.
“We’re probably going to stay at the same pace, unless Congress does something to ease the minds of the consumer” in the year’s final months, Castignetti said.
Hyundai, South Korea’s largest automaker, reported on Nov. 2 a 38 percent sales increase, and its affiliate Kia Motors Corp. had a 39 percent gain.
Japan’s Mazda Motor Corp. reported a 20 percent increase and sales for Subaru, the auto brand of Toyota affiliate Fuji Heavy Industries Ltd., grew 25 percent. Mitsubishi Motors Corp.’s sales rose 32 percent and Suzuki Motor Corp.’s grew 17 percent.
If this goes on, I will be very glad that finally, the good guys are getting what they deserve, and the monkey keepers as well stop selling cars and play with their monkeys everyday !!!
Is the same true of all their competitors' products, who have had these incentives all along?
Let's face it, the market is still way down, it's a buyer's market, good for consumers. Terrible for automakers.
I quoted Automotive News above, who said Toyota had the lowest incentives of the Big 6.
I guess their bread is the least stale. :P
Your usual "low margin" argument won't apply at all here because 0% financing is proportional to the cost of the vehicle, and remember some are giving 6 years, Toyota likely only 5.
>It’s bad enough that Toyota’s sales slid 4 percent
Imagine how bad it would have been in the US if toyota hadn't been calling to try to get people with leases on toyotas that were coming up on expiration to trade their old toyota in early by offering supposed good deals. They probably were contacting recent purchasers to try to get them to trade earlier also, to increase the sales numbers.
But just imagine what all those off-lease trades are doing to the used car values of toyotas.
My, oh how times have changed. I recall in 2001-2003 era when posters on the toyota fan discussions were quick to put down anyone with a criticism of the toyota they owned. They were drummed into submission by the proponents. There couldn't be any flaws in the perfect cars from toyota.
The same proponents claimed that those US companies used incentives because their cars were no good and they had to push them out to customers. On the other hand, toyotas (and Hondas) were so good that they were worth the higher charges the dealers imposed to allow buyers to purchase their product.
Honda and toyota didn't have to use incentives was the tenet.
Now we have early lease buyouts. "Free" required maintenance, little as it is, for two years. Discounts. Low interest rates on loans.
because 0% financing is proportional to the cost of the vehicle, and remember some are giving 6 years, Toyota likely only 5.
That is true. I would want to know how low they will go with a cash deal. That is IF ToyLex had anything I wanted to buy. Have I said how much I like my Nissan Frontier. The Lexus has 1800 miles this year to date and the Sequoia 3300 miles YTD. I have put 4700 miles on the Frontier since I bought it the end of April. Just more enjoyable to drive than the two products from Toyota.
I liked Lexus better when they were copying the last generation S-Class and offering it for a lot less than a Mercedes. They started going off in their own direction with the LS460 and the car became bland and generic.
I liked Lexus better when they were copying the last generation S-Class and offering it for a lot less than a Mercedes. They started going off in their own direction with the LS460 and the car became bland and generic.
I ALWAYS thought their cars were bland and generic. :P
tlong says, "I ALWAYS thought their cars were bland and generic."
That might be true, except for the original 1991 LS400.
That car was a great Mercedes copycat, but did a lot of things FAR better. If "near-perfect" = "bland" in your eyes, then I guess it could have been "bland" to you.
No one at Lexus needs to apologize for that car. It proved that Japan could make mass-market luxury autos just as well as anyone in the world.
Most car magazines writers hate Toyota, because the more people drive these type of cars, the less racy boys they got to sell a copy.
Most car magazine readers hate Toyota, because that's what the magazine is saying.
Most people in big 3 related business (Detroit/UAW/parts) hates Toyota, because these imports put them (almost) out of jobs and business, and Toyota is the most to blame for that.
Most people in car forums hate Toyota, because that's what everyone is saying.
Why would anyone still buy Toyota? Well, my next car might not be a Toyota/Lexus, but it had served me very well, ought to appreciate those that did that for me.
IMO, Infiniti is the most interesting Japanese luxury brand. The G37 gives the BMW 3-series a run for its money, while the M37 would be my pick if I ever decided to spend $45K+ on a premium-priced Japanese sedan.
It was better at being lower maintenance, but it did have problem areasm and I am not aware that it drove any better - and remember, it was copying a 10 year old design. Still, a very good car, dumped at first which was a brilliant move to lure people in. Well, it worked in NA, hasn't caught on so much elsewhere
As far as "drove any better": It got sterling marks for interior silence on the road, which to a lot of people is a huge plus for driving long distances.
I love driving cars which are super-insulated from road, tire, engine, and wind noise.
My wife went from a Mercedes to the LS400 in 1989. She had it back to the dealer several times until they put in a suspension she could live with. It was very mushy riding up until they came up with a fix. I think she said she had a 300SD prior to the Lexus.
It is a 1990 model sold in October 1989. We are still living with it. mainly takes up a lot of room in the garage. Just don't want to give it away. Maybe wait for the next C4C program. I have thought about selling it as a sort of classic as it is in great condition with just over 100,000 miles.
PS The price in 1989 was $41k cash. My wife still has the window sticker.
Well , when I say "drove", I mean handling, road feel...performance items. A Lexus likely was quieter than the old S-class, and a period Caddy likely was too. MB has never sought to be an iso-tank like Lexus.
Keep it. They are good old cars, yours is likely in excellent condition, and sadly, they are worth very little - you couldn't buy anything nearly as nice for what you'd get out of it. It'll never really be a classic, but it is a nice old car.
Some LS could be had for around 35K back then, but it would be no moonroof, cloth, base stereo...very few existed to such spec.
After 21 years it is a quieter better handling car than the 2010 Honda Accord I had for 2 weeks in Indiana. Yes this one is loaded leather moon roof. No CD player, just cassette. I don't think they existed in 1989.
I think the Nakamichi optional stereo in those cars had a CD player, likely a single disc unit. If your car is early production perhaps it wasn't offered.
A smooth small V8 with tight engineering and sound deadening would probably be like velvet compared to (likely a) 4 banger mass market hauler, even if it was 20 years old. My old 1989 S-class could put most modern cars to shame in driving comfort, even at 150K+++ miles.
That's why Lexus has been more or less a runaway hit on this continent, and probably why it has struggled in some other areas. Driving is usually pretty dull here, so many want to escape it altogether :shades:
Buddy, may I remind you that " The PAST is not a guide to the FUTURE ".
toyota has CHANGED. FACE IT. toyota today vs decades ago, under different management, are entirely different animals.
Like the US financial world, long admired by the world as models of good corporate governance. Who will have thought that some of the biggest US financial institutions are the triggers of the worldwide 2008 economic crisis ?
Names like AIG, Lehman Brothers, they too, like toyota of old, are once highly regarded as big well run corporations that know what they are doing.
Today, ask anyone, do these big boys know what they ARE doing ?
Once more, the past is NOT a guide to the future. Think AIG. the old time toyota of the financial industry.
If you look at the top 3 sellers for each and equate the IS to the C-class, it starts 3k less base MSRP. ES 10k less than E-class. RX 10k less then M-class. I am sure there is a lot of subsidized leasing going on for all 3 brands.
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The point was that toyota and Honda owners used to brag about how their cars were so good and in demand that the companies didn't have to have any incentives to customers.
>$2,152 per Lexus in October
So even lexus has to have incentives? Wow. It is worse than I thought.
>With less than HALF the incentives
But that's a lot more than the ZERO incentives (to customers) posters used to claim were needed to peddle camry and Accord because they were so in demand. :P
But that's a lot more than the ZERO incentives (to customers) posters used to claim were needed to peddle camry and Accord because they were so in demand.
I know that you know the demand in the market is much lower than 3 years ago. Even the most successful of brands found the market extremely weak over the past 2 years.
>I know that you know the demand in the market is much lower than 3 years ago.
But these best brands that "never" have to use incentives as spoken in 2000-2003 era postings by devotees would have zero, zero incentives (except for the hidden incentives they gave to dealers to push the iron that didn't get to customers who paid full tab and more).
>sarcastic.
Me? Never. I'm just recalling the days when supporters on the forums would drum out anyone posting about a problem with their Camry or Accord or Corolla or even Civic in those days. Anyone like myself commenting about a test drive or subjective rating of the product was soundly chastised and corrected with whips and chains and "troll" ratings.
Those same highly-in-demand products have fallen?
I recall in this forum where information about the SUA and the NHTSA coverups were first starting to appear was met with comments dismissing it as drivel and statements that there's nothing more to see--move on, trying to change the topic.
My how things have changed.
Of course, the cars are still adequate. They have regressed to the mean of quality for cars rather than being as viewed by proponents as being in the Top Tier.
Comments
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The target buyer will like those ads, though.
“If you go into a dealership expecting a huge discount on 2010s versus 2011s and there really isn't that much of an incentive difference, you might look toward another automaker that does provide that huge gap in incentives,” Drury said. “Toyota has one of the smallest gaps of the Big 6.”
Read more: http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20101102/RETAIL01/101109963/1- 448#ixzz14FevQxeQ
Also, many of the other manufacturers have upgraded their lineups for 2011, so they want to get rid of the 2010's.
Sounds like more excuses for lousy October sales figures. An unsold vehicle is just that. Taking up space on a lot instead of money in the bank.
I was just at my local Toyota dealer the other day looking at Camry's and Rav 4's. I could not believe the difference between that 2011 and the 2001/2000 I was in not too long ago. Misaligned cheap plastic all over the center console, dash, doors, etc. Two pieces in the center console were still loose and detachable and the material quality was just not there anymore. I really hope Toyota gets the message and redoes the Camry good next year for the next generation b/c its in bad need of improvements across the board in my opinion.
I really don't understand it.
I think of your 2007 purchase every time I see toyota's advertisement about someone, somewhere judged their 2007 camry as better quality than two other 2010 cars.
And their point?...
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Rank Model 2010 Oct % change
1 Ford F - Series PU 49,041 24.2
2 Chevrolet Silverado PU 34,283 8.0
3 Toyota Camry / Solara 25,014 -17.0
4 Honda Accord 21,451 -7.6
5 Nissan Altima 18,978 28.5
6 Toyota Corolla / Matrix 18,636 -27.5
7 Honda CR-V 18,040 15.1
8 Hyundai Sonata 17,505 124.7
9 Ford Fusion 17,362 29.1
10 Dodge Ram PU 17,316 41.2
11 Honda Civic 17,121 7.9
12 Toyota RAV4 14,694 5.2
13 Ford Escape 14,578 16.9
14 GMC Sierra PU 12,983 9.2
15 Chevrolet Equinox 12,773 62.3
16 Jeep Grand Cherokee 12,721 290.7
17 Ford Focus 12,396 22.5
18 Chevrolet Impala 12,389 -2.6
19 Chevrolet Malibu 12,353 2.2
20 Volkswagen Jetta 11,958 31.8
The Toyota and Honda top models are the biggest losers. This is while Toyota throws in 2-year free maintenance, lower lease cost than 10 years ago, and the highest incentives of their 2011 models in the industry (see my previous post).
Toyota is saying they will soon introduce finance incentives, though they'll probably cap them at 5 years, not 6.
They had 2 years' free maintenance on Toyotas, but not Lexus models, and that just wasn't matching up with competitor offers.
True BMW is the biggest competitor of Lexus, and they give 4 years, 50,000 mile total maintenance. It was the super high cost of maintenance at El Cajon Lexus that first turned me off on Lexus. Then building vehicles that were not attractive to my wife and myself sealed their fate in our case. Lexus was a good idea when they started. Too bad they did not keep up the good work.
Their product lineup is day old bread.
If anything Mercedes is the biggest competitor to Lexus in regards to driving focus and comfort luxury philosphy. If anything, Infiniti and Audi are bigger competitors to BMW since they have more of a luxury sport oriented mission.
It does look ridiculous though for Toyota to offer the 2 yr/20k free maintenance and not Lexus :confuse:
HANS GREIMEL
How Toyota tripped in China
November 4, 2010 - 2:34 pm ET
TOKYO -- It’s bad enough that Toyota’s sales slid 4 percent in the United States last month while the overall market jumped 13 percent.But more damning still is the Japanese carmaker’s 6 percent drop in sales in China.
If the world’s biggest automaker can’t ride the ever-building wave of sales growth in the world’s biggest auto market, the company must be suffering some serious engine knock.
But indeed, Toyota’s sales slumped to 61,600 units in China in October for their first year-on-year decline since April 2009. The retreat underlined Toyota’s tough slog in China.
Toyota is playing catch-up to China’s market leaders: General Motors, Volkswagen and Hyundai. But this year’s recall troubles, combined with political tensions between Beijing and Tokyo, may be tripping up a company that, to many Chinese, has come to symbolize Japan Inc.
China’s total industry sales in October aren’t out yet. Overall demand may have actually contracted. But that seems unlikely. The country’s insatiable appetite for wheels drove passenger-car sales 41 percent higher to 8.53 million through September.
Including October’s results, Toyota’s sales in China were still up 17 percent for the year. But why they lagged the market and then slid into reverse is the worrying question.
Toyota didn’t offer any explanations. But some possible theories seem clear.
First, Toyota is still hurting from this year’s recall crisis. In China, Toyota can’t lean on a long history of customer loyalty because many customers are first-time buyers. If a brand gets a black eye in China, customers are more apt to pass it by and look at the competition.
Second, the recent outbreak of anti-Japanese nationalism in China is likely hitting a company many see as the archetypal Japanese corporate entity. The diplomatic tensions, over disputed islets in the East China Sea, are spurring calls to boycott Japanese goods in China.
No matter the reasons, October’s stumble hasn’t discouraged Toyota. Its 2010 China sales target of 800,000 vehicles remains intact -- representing a 5.3 percent increase over last year.
Though anti Japanese may play a part, I don't think its the main factor, after all, you don't get reports of Nissan and Honda also slipping. Nissan in fact has become the biggest Japanese brand in China, though still behind GM, VW and Hyundai.
So you see folks, the Chinese have awaken to the fact that toyota's so called superb quality is a myth. They realized that GM, VW, Hyundai and Nissan's quality is better.
Time for Americans to wake up too ! Forget about jd power and CR !
Nissan Posts Surge in Profit, Raises Outlook
By CHESTER DAWSON And YOSHIO TAKAHASHI
TOKYO—Powered by a fierce hunger for cars in China, Nissan Motor Co. posted a nearly fourfold increase in net profit in the fiscal second quarter and said it expects to sell a record number of vehicles world-wide this fiscal year.
Nissan, which also lifted its full-year outlook, joins fellow Japanese auto makers Honda Motor Co. and Mazda Motor Corp. in reporting solid July-September earnings and higher forecasts.
But the optimistic appraisals so far have been tempered by warnings from Nissan and others that the yen's recent strength might dent their profit margins in the second half of the fiscal year through March. Industry leader Toyota Motor Corp. is report its interim results on Friday.
Nissan, Japan's second-largest car manufacturer by volume, said its net profit rose to 101.7 billion yen ($1.25 billion) in the three months ended Sept. 30 from 25.5 billion yen a year earlier. Revenue rose 21% to 2.269 trillion yen.
The strong performance prompted Nissan to raise its full-year net-profit forecast to 270 billion yen from 150 billion yen. It also boosted its full-year outlook for global vehicle sales to 4.1 million vehicles. The new forecast is up from an initial projection of 3.8 million vehicles and the most since fiscal 2007, when Nissan sold 3.77 million autos.
"Looking forward to the second half of this fiscal year, we recognize headwinds in the macro environment that are beyond our control, including risks associated with the appreciation of the yen," Nissan Chief Operating Officer Toshiyuki Shiga said at a news conference.
Nissan's sales were strongest in Asia during the most recent quarter, and rose in most of the markets the auto maker targets. Asia outside of Japan posted the sharpest rise as sales increased 40% to 327,000 vehicles. China made up the bulk of those sales, with a 39% gain to 260,000 vehicles thanks to demand for Nissan's compact Sylphy and midsize Teana sedans.
In Japan, sales rose 13% to 191,000 vehicles. By comparison, sales in Europe and the U.S. rose at a more modest pace, with European sales up 5.3% to 136,000 vehicles and North American sales up 2.9% to 302,000.
Reflecting its continuing concern about the Japanese currency's recent surge toward 80 yen to the dollar, Nissan said it expects net profit in the second half to account for only 23% of its revised annual-net-profit forecast of 270 billion yen. That caution echoed similarly conservative estimates from Honda, Mazda and Suzuki Motor Corp.
A stronger yen tends to erode income earned overseas when translated into yen, and can make vehicles built in Japan less price-competitive outside Japan. However, the yen's surge over the past six months didn't prove to be an insurmountable hurdle in the fiscal first half. And despite Nissan's warnings about the yen, analysts said the company isn't likely to have much difficulty beating its full-year profit number.
"Margins are bound to be under pressure in the second half," said Kurt Sanger, an analyst at Deutsche Securities in Tokyo. "But Nissan should be able to easily beat its forecast of a 3.4% [operating-profit] margin [in the October-March period]." Mr. Sanger pointed to Nissan's revenue gain in the most recent quarter as a particularly good omen because it signaled that sales-growth momentum remains strong.
Nissan's operating profit doubled to 167 billion yen from 83.3 billion yen.
For the current fiscal year through March, Nissan boosted its forecast for operating profit to 485 billion yen from 350 billion yen, and revenue to 8.77 trillion yen from 8.2 trillion yen. That outlook is based on an assumption that the dollar will average 80 yen and the euro 110 yen for the second half. The company bases its earnings on Japanese accounting standards.
So folks, whoever said toyota sales slowed in China (like in the US), is because of anti-Japanese sentiment, look again. Why is it that Nissan's car sales in China increased 39% !! While toyota dropped in the same period ?
Its because Chinese consumers realized that Nissan is a much more trustworthy car maker than toyota, and that Nissan's quality is far better than toyota, despite what jd and CR says. And look at the numbers, it turns out that Nissan is actually BIGGER than Honda worldwide totalled.
Then why is it that in the US, Nissan appears to be so looked down upon and treated as a mediocre quality brand ? Is it because again, like VW, so big in China and worldwide, Jd power puts Nissan, VW, below toyota and honda in the rankings chart ?
Even in Japan, Nissan and Honda are at about the same strength in terms of sales. Now it seems Nissan has overtaken Honda to take the no.2 Japanese carmaker spot worldwide.
Hyundai also did very very well in China, growing so big that they are now bigger than Nissan, Honda, and toyota. Hyundai IS getting SCARY, for the competition.
http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/todays-paper/Toyota+Canada+sales+drop+nearly+O- - ctober/3768753/story.html
Toyota Canada sales drop nearly 23% in October
By Scott Deveau, Financial Post November 3, 2010
Toyota Canada Inc. saw a steep 22.7 per cent decline in its October sales across its three brands compared with a year ago as the automaker continues to struggle in the aftermath of a series of recalls.
Toyota vehicles, separate from Lexus and Scion brands, fell nearly 25 per cent compared with a year ago, and its Acura sales (this could be a typo, Acura is Honda's brand right ?) fell more than 16 per cent during the month.
The sales declines come despite the introduction of the Scion brand at 46 dealerships in Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal. In total, Toyota sold just 247 Scions in its first full month of sales. The manufacturer plans to expand its store-within-a-store Scion dealership network by next spring by 40.
Toyota Canada's sales are down 12.4 per cent to 150,119 vehicles year to date, from 171,295 units it had sold by the same point in 2009.
The troubles at Toyota stand in stark contrast to most of its main competitors, which saw sales increase during October compared with a year ago.
Ford Motor Company of Canada Ltd., for example, said its October sales increased eight per cent compared with the same period last year -- its best showing for the month in 11 years.
Meanwhile, General Motors Canada's sales on its four core brands improved more than 11 per cent in October to 17,912 units, from 16,126 a year ago.
Year-to-date, GM Canada's sales on its continuing brands are up nearly 22 per cent compared with the same period in 2009.
Could the tide be turning ? But obviously people like Katsuaki Watanabe is still enjoying his big pay check at toyota's board of directors till now. Wonder why nobody bothered to boot this guy out ?
Could it be because toyota thinks what Katsuaki Watanabe has done is NOT enough ? And that MORE cost cutting needs to be done, even chop the bone to pieces ? Thats why he is retained as a toyota director ?
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-11-03/hyundai-honda-lead-asian-automakers-u-s- -sales-gains-as-buyers-return.html
Hyundai, Honda Lead Asian Automakers' U.S. October Sales Gains
By Alan Ohnsman - Nov 4, 2010 6:26 AM GMT+0700
Hyundai Motor Co., Honda Motor Co. and Nissan Motor Co. led U.S. sales gains for Asian carmakers as higher retail demand made October the best month for deliveries in more than a year. Toyota Motor Corp. reported a decline.
Honda and Nissan both had 16 percent increases for the month, while Seoul-based Hyundai reported a 38 percent gain. Toyota’s sales fell 4.4 percent as demand shifted to light trucks from cars, such as its Camry and Corolla models, said Bob Carter, the company’s U.S. group vice president.
“Consumers who have a job are feeling a little bit better and not fearing every Friday anymore,” said Rebecca Lindland, an analyst at researcher IHS Automotive in Lexington, Massachusetts. “They feel like the worst is over and they’re starting to trickle back into showrooms.”
Industrywide light-vehicle sales rose to a 12.3 million annual rate in October, researcher Autodata Corp. said yesterday. That’s the fastest since the U.S. government’s “cash for clunkers” incentive program lifted the pace to 14.2 million in August 2009. The average of nine analysts’ estimates compiled by Bloomberg was for the rate to reach 11.9 million last month.
Japanese and South Korean brands raised sales a combined 12 percent, less than the industry’s 13 percent increase, according to Woodcliff Lake, New Jersey-based Autodata. Sales to individual retail buyers, rather than business and commercial fleets, were notably stronger last month, Toyota’s Carter said.
“Most of the industry growth has been on the fleet side of the business,” Carter said on a conference call yesterday. “This is the first month that we’ve seen retail perform better than fleet.”
Fleet Sales
Sales to fleets were at least 21 percent of U.S. volume through September, according to industry forecaster J.D. Power & Associates. J.D. Power hasn’t yet calculated the fleet sales rate through October, said John Tews, a company spokesman.
U.S. automakers General Motors Co., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler Group LLC have been the main beneficiaries of fleet demand this year. GM’s sales last month rose 3.5 percent, Ford’s grew 15 percent and Chrysler had a 37 percent increase.
Toyota, the world’s largest automaker, sold 145,474 Toyota, Lexus and Scion brand vehicles last month, down from 152,165 a year earlier. Gains were strongest for models including Highlander, 4Runner and FJ Cruiser sport-utility vehicles, while Yaris, Camry and Corolla cars and Prius hybrids all posted declines.
Luxury Autos
Lexus expanded its lead in U.S. luxury auto sales over Daimler AG’s Mercedes-Benz and Bayerische Motoren Werke AG’s BMW brand. Lexus sales grew 8.1 percent to 21,091 vehicles, aided by increased incentives.
Toyota City, Japan-based Toyota’s market share dropped 2.9 percentage points from a year ago to 15.3 percent, according to Autodata.
Honda, based in Tokyo, boosted deliveries of Honda and Acura brand autos to 98,811 units from 85,502. Gains came from the new Odyssey minivan, sales of which rose 47 percent from a year ago. The company is also being helped by increased use of low-cost leases, said Jesse Toprak, vice president of industry trends for Santa Monica, California-based TrueCar.com.
“Honda’s got a good lineup for current market conditions and has some very attractive lease deals,” Toprak said. “They have also been more aggressive on overall incentives.”
Improved retail demand may have benefited Honda more than competitors because it’s among the least reliant on fleet sales in the U.S. This year, only about 3 percent of Honda’s volume went to fleets, spokesman Jon Fitzsimmons said.
Resale Values
“On a retail basis, our sales are on par with or exceed the best of the competition,” said Kurt Antonius, a spokesman for Honda’s U.S. unit. “Fleet sales are simply not part of our sales strategy because it can undermine resale values.”
Honda’s market share was 10.4 percent last month, up 0.2 percentage point from a year ago, according to Autodata.
Nissan said it sold 69,773 Nissan and Infiniti vehicles, up from 60,115 a year ago. The Yokohama, Japan-based company boosted sales of Altima sedans 28 percent and benefited from the addition of the compact Juke crossover vehicle.
Industry sales will likely end up at about 12 million units this year, lower than Nissan’s initial expectation of about 12.2 million, Al Castignetti, vice president of North American sales for Nissan, said in an interview.
“We’re probably going to stay at the same pace, unless Congress does something to ease the minds of the consumer” in the year’s final months, Castignetti said.
Hyundai, South Korea’s largest automaker, reported on Nov. 2 a 38 percent sales increase, and its affiliate Kia Motors Corp. had a 39 percent gain.
Japan’s Mazda Motor Corp. reported a 20 percent increase and sales for Subaru, the auto brand of Toyota affiliate Fuji Heavy Industries Ltd., grew 25 percent. Mitsubishi Motors Corp.’s sales rose 32 percent and Suzuki Motor Corp.’s grew 17 percent.
If this goes on, I will be very glad that finally, the good guys are getting what they deserve, and the monkey keepers as well stop selling cars and play with their monkeys everyday !!!
Bravo Nissan, Hyundai, Honda and the rest !!
Is the same true of all their competitors' products, who have had these incentives all along?
Let's face it, the market is still way down, it's a buyer's market, good for consumers. Terrible for automakers.
I quoted Automotive News above, who said Toyota had the lowest incentives of the Big 6.
I guess their bread is the least stale. :P
Your usual "low margin" argument won't apply at all here because 0% financing is proportional to the cost of the vehicle, and remember some are giving 6 years, Toyota likely only 5.
"Toyota raised its full year profit forecast"
Imagine if the currency had lost value.
Imagine how bad it would have been in the US if toyota hadn't been calling to try to get people with leases on toyotas that were coming up on expiration to trade their old toyota in early by offering supposed good deals. They probably were contacting recent purchasers to try to get them to trade earlier also, to increase the sales numbers.
But just imagine what all those off-lease trades are doing to the used car values of toyotas.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The same proponents claimed that those US companies used incentives because their cars were no good and they had to push them out to customers. On the other hand, toyotas (and Hondas) were so good that they were worth the higher charges the dealers imposed to allow buyers to purchase their product.
Honda and toyota didn't have to use incentives was the tenet.
Now we have early lease buyouts. "Free" required maintenance, little as it is, for two years. Discounts. Low interest rates on loans.
My how times have changed.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
That is true. I would want to know how low they will go with a cash deal. That is IF ToyLex had anything I wanted to buy. Have I said how much I like my Nissan Frontier. The Lexus has 1800 miles this year to date and the Sequoia 3300 miles YTD. I have put 4700 miles on the Frontier since I bought it the end of April. Just more enjoyable to drive than the two products from Toyota.
I ALWAYS thought their cars were bland and generic. :P
That might be true, except for the original 1991 LS400.
That car was a great Mercedes copycat, but did a lot of things FAR better. If "near-perfect" = "bland" in your eyes, then I guess it could have been "bland" to you.
No one at Lexus needs to apologize for that car. It proved that Japan could make mass-market luxury autos just as well as anyone in the world.
Most car magazine readers hate Toyota, because that's what the magazine is saying.
Most people in big 3 related business (Detroit/UAW/parts) hates Toyota, because these imports put them (almost) out of jobs and business, and Toyota is the most to blame for that.
Most people in car forums hate Toyota, because that's what everyone is saying.
Why would anyone still buy Toyota? Well, my next car might not be a Toyota/Lexus, but it had served me very well, ought to appreciate those that did that for me.
IMO, Infiniti is the most interesting Japanese luxury brand. The G37 gives the BMW 3-series a run for its money, while the M37 would be my pick if I ever decided to spend $45K+ on a premium-priced Japanese sedan.
As far as "drove any better": It got sterling marks for interior silence on the road, which to a lot of people is a huge plus for driving long distances.
I love driving cars which are super-insulated from road, tire, engine, and wind noise.
1989 was the first LS400. Thanks Gary.
The LS400 was indeed a mushy rider, but there was so much else so excellent about the car that most owners lived with it.
PS
The price in 1989 was $41k cash. My wife still has the window sticker.
Some LS could be had for around 35K back then, but it would be no moonroof, cloth, base stereo...very few existed to such spec.
I was Lexus' perfect customer in 1990. Just was about $40K short of being able to afford one. :shades: :shades: :lemon:
A smooth small V8 with tight engineering and sound deadening would probably be like velvet compared to (likely a) 4 banger mass market hauler, even if it was 20 years old. My old 1989 S-class could put most modern cars to shame in driving comfort, even at 150K+++ miles.
toyota has CHANGED. FACE IT. toyota today vs decades ago, under different management, are entirely different animals.
Like the US financial world, long admired by the world as models of good corporate governance. Who will have thought that some of the biggest US financial institutions are the triggers of the worldwide 2008 economic crisis ?
Names like AIG, Lehman Brothers, they too, like toyota of old, are once highly regarded as big well run corporations that know what they are doing.
Today, ask anyone, do these big boys know what they ARE doing ?
Once more, the past is NOT a guide to the future. Think AIG. the old time toyota of the financial industry.
Really?
Lexus won the luxury sales race in October, and hold the lead for YTD, too:
183,529 for Lexus
178,080 for Mercedes
176,736 for BMW
Honda and toyota didn't have to use incentives
Less then competitors, above Toyota was the lowest of the Big 6, and Lexus is much lower than #2 Mercedes by far:
$2,152 per Lexus in October, according to TrueCar.com
$4,389 for Mercedes
With less than HALF the incentives, they still hold the lead.
Question - if Mercedes has TRIPLE the incentives, can they beat Lexus? LOL
ES 10k less than E-class.
RX 10k less then M-class.
I am sure there is a lot of subsidized leasing going on for all 3 brands.
The point was that toyota and Honda owners used to brag about how their cars were so good and in demand that the companies didn't have to have any incentives to customers.
>$2,152 per Lexus in October
So even lexus has to have incentives? Wow. It is worse than I thought.
>With less than HALF the incentives
But that's a lot more than the ZERO incentives (to customers) posters used to claim were needed to peddle camry and Accord because they were so in demand. :P
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
But that's a lot more than the ZERO incentives (to customers) posters used to claim were needed to peddle camry and Accord because they were so in demand.
I know that you know the demand in the market is much lower than 3 years ago. Even the most successful of brands found the market extremely weak over the past 2 years.
I just KNOW that you are being sarcastic.
What are GM's incentives these days? :P
2010 YTD numbers are:
Mercedes 184438
Lexus 183529
2010 average incentives:
Mercedes $3900
Lexus $3300
But these best brands that "never" have to use incentives as spoken in 2000-2003 era postings by devotees would have zero, zero incentives (except for the hidden incentives they gave to dealers to push the iron that didn't get to customers who paid full tab and more).
>sarcastic.
Me? Never. I'm just recalling the days when supporters on the forums would drum out anyone posting about a problem with their Camry or Accord or Corolla or even Civic in those days. Anyone like myself commenting about a test drive or subjective rating of the product was soundly chastised and corrected with whips and chains and "troll" ratings.
Those same highly-in-demand products have fallen?
I recall in this forum where information about the SUA and the NHTSA coverups were first starting to appear was met with comments dismissing it as drivel and statements that there's nothing more to see--move on, trying to change the topic.
My how things have changed.
Of course, the cars are still adequate. They have regressed to the mean of quality for cars rather than being as viewed by proponents as being in the Top Tier.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,