Ten years is nothing when it comes to holding a grudge against a manufacturer. I still bad mouth Toyota for the POC 1964 Toyota Land Cruiser they sold me. And even worse the POC 1978 Honda Accord I bought. It is unlikely that I would ever buy another Honda. I will say that Toyota had a good run in the 90s and early days of the 21st Century. Having just spent 2 weeks driving a POC 2010 Honda Accord, I would say they have managed to pull the wool over the eyes of a nation for decades. If Budget would have had a different car available they would have had the Accord back the second day.
I know they are out there but it is rare. Honda only fields about 2% fleets compared to cars like the Rentabu at 30+% or the Impala which hovers around 60%!
>POC 1978 Honda Accord I bought. It is unlikely that I would ever buy another Honda.
But "it's a Honda, the only thing that won't last is this sale we're advertising!"
In your case, the memory of the problems lasted?
>1964 Land Cruiser
I still won't buy a Ford because of the 1973 Torino and the low quality there. Traded it for a 77 Cutlass the night I picked it up after having to have the timing chain replaced at 70,000 miles. I swore I'd never own another Ford. But I did have to change my words in a Clintonesque manner and say I'd never _buy_ another Ford: I won a Mustang in a contest. So I owned a Ford. Pretty good other than rear suspension bolts not torqued to spec at factory, wires on motor not proper length so it broke primary ignition wires when accelerated hard after a corner, front strut was defective and noisy, and some other things. I might actually look at a Fusion under proper circumstances now. So I guess I'm actually a very open-minded guy.
Budget Rental in Evansville Indiana uses Accord and Altima as their "Large cars". Did not have any SUVs or decent large cars like Town Car or preferably Explorer size SUV. Price was right and the people were excellent to deal with. It was the only off airport rental with airport PU.
Funny thing is he picked us up in a real nice Altima. When he went to put it through their system, it came back as sold. So we got stuck with an Accord. It was so noisy, I don't know how anyone would want one. It only had 22k miles on it.
>So we got stuck with an Accord. It was so noisy, I don't know how anyone would want one. It only had 22k miles on it.
Was it a 6-cylinder with the VCM that cycles in and out so badly that it's felt by the driver as cylinders cut in and out? That's getting lots of discussion here in a another thread.
having to have the timing chain replaced at 70,000 miles.
That is dang good service. The Land Cruiser went through 3 timing gears before 50k miles. And burnt valves twice. Toyota fixed the first timing gear and valve job. It was an exact copy of the Chevy 6 cylinder using Lucky Lager beer cans to build it. Pure junk. I sold it at 3 years and 50k miles. I wish I had the body and frame today with a nice V8 engine. It was the small window version only sold in 1964 here.
I did not pop the hood. I would say it was a four banger. It averaged 28 MPG for the 1500+ miles we had it. It was not engine noise. It was road noise transmitted throughout the body. Poor design.
Yes it did have hubcaps. And the worst key fob ever sold. The Budget guy told me that was their biggest complaint with the Accords. You had to be in just the right place to even unlock the doors. Same when you went to lock them. I walked around the car twice the first time I tried getting the doors unlocked. I know this is not a Honda thread. But just looking at the consumer reviews, I find I am not alone in my opinion of the Accord. It is not getting good reviews. Here is a typical review that mirrored my long two weeks driving one.
Run as fast as you can from this jalopy! This is the 2nd Accord I bought and hated both of them and both dealers. Build quality is garbage! Sold this junker after 1 month because of shaking in front end transmission jerking, wind/road noise, dashboard does not even touch windshield (check any of them) this car is another joke from a company milking past quality!
Why this guy bought a second Accord is a mystery. Unless his first was like me back in the 1970s.
Now I will return you to bashing Toyota. I can see where Ford, Nissan, Hyundai, GM and even Chrysler will gain buyers with Toyota and Honda cutting quality.
The poster could have been talking toyota with that line.
Actually the average reviewer of the 2010 Camry is even less thrilled with their cars than Accord owners.
Here is from the most recent 2010 Camry review:
I feel like such an idiot for getting this car, even after reading reviews about the transmission issues, during the long test drive I didn't hear/feel the lackluster trans. I could have gotten a 2011 Sonata for 5K cheaper then is (26K, but the only reason I picked the Camry was due to the "Strong" V6, but this damn transmission doesn't let it deliver the power right away, feels like there is a 3-4 second gap. I just had a close call on the freeway where I needed to "gun it" and I had no instant response which forced me off onto the side of the FW. If I knew Hyundai was going to offer a turbo Sonata I would have waited, in fact I'm planning on waiting for it. Be safe Camry owners!
Did you work for big 3, laid off by Toyota, or whatever that made you on a mission? They only made cars... knowing Japanese culture, I will trust their integrity much more than any American Corporations. Not attached to any brand, just may the good ones win.
There is no need to hold a grudge buddy, some self discovery would go a long way...
WOODCLIFF LAKE, N.J., Nov. 2, 2010 /PRNewswire/ --The BMW Group in the U.S. (BMW and MINI combined) reported October sales of 23,222 vehicles, an increase of 12.6 percent from the 20,619 vehicles sold in October 2009. Year-to-date, the BMW Group also reported a sales volume of 215,274 vehicles, up 7.7 percent from the 199,838 units sold through October 2009.
We have a difference here. According to MB on clubLexus:
Impressive gains continued in both the Mercedes-Benz passenger car and light-truck categories. The strongest performer for the month was the 9th generation E-Class with sales of 5,568, bringing the year-to-date total to 50,298 (up 53.3%). The popular and sporty C-Class followed with sales of 3,771 and the versatile M-Class SUV rounded out the top three volume performers with sales of 2,826 for the month. Sales at the high end continued strong with sales of the flagship S-Class up 60.4%. Also showing strong gains for the month were the CLS coupe up 47.5% and the spacious R-Class crossover up 52%. The company also sold 59 of the newly launched supercar - the SLS AMG - bringing its year-to-date sales to 415. On a year-to-date basis, the company sold 184,431 new vehicles, an increase of 20.1 % over last year.
And here's the link to the Wall Street Journal: WSJ
The online article of the LA Times is slightly different from the printed article on the actual newspaper I received. The printed version listed the YTD MB sales of 184438, exactly matches the WSJ number. The online version rounded it up to 184000.
About the time the GS, ES & IS are luxury cars. Face it the only real luxury car in the Lexus lineup is the LS. Rest are wannabes. Same would go for BMW and MB and their entry level luxury vehicles.
The truth is the S class MB is kicking Lexus butt with their LS models. And in the Luxury utes the Cadillac is tops in sales. The Escalade sells over 5 to 1 on the LX570. We can shift around the models and get the spin to go our way. Bottom line is Toyota is steadily losing market share. Cheapening their vehicles to keep the Family in Japan happy will not gain them much in the long haul.
We call this ‘smart.’ We agreed that smart premium is what we should be targeting with Acura, not the upper-segment vehicles such as Lexus or Mercedes-Benz.
This has really become a Honda and Toyota bashing site. Can you believe how stupid all those American are for buying such large numbers of absolute junk like Camrys/Corollas and Accords/Civics month after month? Incidentally, I am one of these "stupid Americans", an extremely satisfied owner of a 2004 EX V6 Accord and a 2008 LXP I4 Accord, two rock solid vehicles with no problems at all.
Don't take it personally, this is all in good fun...
Plus we have posters who have never owned either of them so their opinions are merely just that... opinions. Opinions only based on by what they read on these very boards even.
As a 7 time Honda owner, I share the same opinion about them as you do. They're still good cars with a solid reputation (even if some will say it's all phoney). Yup, I've got hundreds of thousands of miles of experience to back up my claims.
Never owned a Toyota tho so I can't speak for them tho.
Also keep in mind to that there is a couple of "failures" out there that are struggling for their lives, even with 60 billion in tax money to brush their blundering under the rugs...
So it is up to those "anti-everything that doesn't wear an "American nameplate" (yeah right, what's that)"" guys to keep the anti-everything that doesn't..." bashing going. As if internet forums might actually make a difference in peoples buying choices...
Don't read into it too much. There are a good group of guys here that keep some great discussions going. Cheers! :shades:
That's a supposed "green model" meant to hit mindless EU targets and appeal to rich eco-weenies. It will be a 4cyl diesel, with a 0-60 of 8 secs, which is commendable for something so small in such a boat....while also hitting 40mpg. It's really what the current S hybrid should have used for an engine.
And it will still blow away the LS in image and sales, especially in the global market.
One thing you missed was that those are top 3 sellers for each brand. The top 2 sellers for Mercedes start 10k higher than the top 2 for Lexus. This is only comparing base MSRP.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
S-class certainly should outsell the LS, the LS only uses a V8 (and a hybrid variant also with the V8). The Benz has all sorts of power, too many to list.
Even when you account for the 10-20% higher price tags, the incentives are more than 100% higher. Benz is using much higher incentives, even proportionally to the prices.
People are critical that Toy/Lex is using incentives, but their competitors are using much higher incentives. The market is simply much more competitive than it was a decade ago.
BMW's incentives are 50% higher and yet they got beat by Lexus, MB's incentives are 100% higher and yet they got beat by Lexus, and Cadillac has incentives that are 150% higher and they weren't even close.
Similarly, Toyota has the lowest incentives of the Big 6.
A 4-cylinder S-Class? I guess that's for folks who miss the "performance" of early 1980s Cadillac Fleetwoods and DeVilles equipped with either the diesel or HT4100. That tank is going.......to........be......s......l......o......w.
That 4 cylinder must rev to 16K RPMs or something. I'd expect that engine to burn itself out pretty quickly trying to propel a boat like an S-Class to that speed that fast.
Mercedes offered “crazy” lease deals on some models last month, said Jesse Toprak, vice president of industry trends for TrueCar. Leases on the C-Class sedan cost about $300 a month, comparable to deals on Honda Motor Co.'s Accord, he said.
I wonder how much money they lose on a $300 lease of a C-class.
Do they still make a C240 4Matic wagon? I may have to get me one of those if they are giving them away like that.
Any how, Audi's would appeal more to me because the aluminum A8 is lighter. The small engine may not be as overwhelmed.
This will surely help their CAFE numbers. I guess it's better to green-up your big cars versus giving away your smaller, more economical ones. The $300 lease on the C-class is insanity.
Similarly, Toyota has the lowest incentives of the Big 6.
That would be advertised incentives. What happens when you go in and work them over on an individual basis? When I bought my 07 Sequoia, I sent out emails to all 11 dealers in San Diego at the time. The prices varied from MSRP to $10k off MSRP. You know which I picked. And that was October 2007, before the economy took a real nose dive.
I was not real interested in paying over New MSRP for a slightly used Mercedes GL320 CDI at the time. MB dealer was not interested in selling their vehicle, so I went for the Toyota. I would have saved about $1500 in fuel costs to date. Not hardly worth the $30k more for the Mercedes.
Toyota will offer big incentives if you have a heart for dealing.
Comments
lol, talk about holding a grudge...
Yup. Long memory. I tried to get the user name here on Edmunds of
"anythingbuttoyota" but they said I couldn't change.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Keep the faith
Ten years is nothing when it comes to holding a grudge against a manufacturer. I still bad mouth Toyota for the POC 1964 Toyota Land Cruiser they sold me. And even worse the POC 1978 Honda Accord I bought. It is unlikely that I would ever buy another Honda. I will say that Toyota had a good run in the 90s and early days of the 21st Century. Having just spent 2 weeks driving a POC 2010 Honda Accord, I would say they have managed to pull the wool over the eyes of a nation for decades. If Budget would have had a different car available they would have had the Accord back the second day.
I know they are out there but it is rare. Honda only fields about 2% fleets compared to cars like the Rentabu at 30+% or the Impala which hovers around 60%!
Did it have hubcaps?
But "it's a Honda, the only thing that won't last is this sale we're advertising!"
In your case, the memory of the problems lasted?
>1964 Land Cruiser
I still won't buy a Ford because of the 1973 Torino and the low quality there. Traded it for a 77 Cutlass the night I picked it up after having to have the timing chain replaced at 70,000 miles. I swore I'd never own another Ford. But I did have to change my words in a Clintonesque manner and say I'd never _buy_ another Ford: I won a Mustang in a contest. So I owned a Ford. Pretty good other than rear suspension bolts not torqued to spec at factory, wires on motor not proper length so it broke primary ignition wires when accelerated hard after a corner, front strut was defective and noisy, and some other things. I might actually look at a Fusion under proper circumstances now. So I guess I'm actually a very open-minded guy.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Funny thing is he picked us up in a real nice Altima. When he went to put it through their system, it came back as sold. So we got stuck with an Accord. It was so noisy, I don't know how anyone would want one. It only had 22k miles on it.
Was it a 6-cylinder with the VCM that cycles in and out so badly that it's felt by the driver as cylinders cut in and out? That's getting lots of discussion here in a another thread.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
That is dang good service. The Land Cruiser went through 3 timing gears before 50k miles. And burnt valves twice. Toyota fixed the first timing gear and valve job. It was an exact copy of the Chevy 6 cylinder using Lucky Lager beer cans to build it. Pure junk. I sold it at 3 years and 50k miles. I wish I had the body and frame today with a nice V8 engine. It was the small window version only sold in 1964 here.
Yes it did have hubcaps. And the worst key fob ever sold. The Budget guy told me that was their biggest complaint with the Accords. You had to be in just the right place to even unlock the doors. Same when you went to lock them. I walked around the car twice the first time I tried getting the doors unlocked. I know this is not a Honda thread. But just looking at the consumer reviews, I find I am not alone in my opinion of the Accord. It is not getting good reviews. Here is a typical review that mirrored my long two weeks driving one.
Run as fast as you can from this jalopy! This is the 2nd Accord I bought and hated both of them and both dealers. Build quality is garbage! Sold this junker after 1 month because of shaking in front end transmission jerking, wind/road noise, dashboard does not even touch windshield (check any of them) this car is another joke from a company milking past quality!
Why this guy bought a second Accord is a mystery. Unless his first was like me back in the 1970s.
Now I will return you to bashing Toyota. I can see where Ford, Nissan, Hyundai, GM and even Chrysler will gain buyers with Toyota and Honda cutting quality.
Another slow learner?
>Unless his first was ... back in the 1970s.
He said he hated both cars AND both dealers.
Why would I try the same thing again?
>this car is another joke from a company milking past quality!
This is right on point. People believe the past quality lines perpetuated by CR and others. The poster could have been talking toyota with that line.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Actually the average reviewer of the 2010 Camry is even less thrilled with their cars than Accord owners.
Here is from the most recent 2010 Camry review:
I feel like such an idiot for getting this car, even after reading reviews about the transmission issues, during the long test drive I didn't hear/feel the lackluster trans. I could have gotten a 2011 Sonata for 5K cheaper then is (26K, but the only reason I picked the Camry was due to the "Strong" V6, but this damn transmission doesn't let it deliver the power right away, feels like there is a 3-4 second gap. I just had a close call on the freeway where I needed to "gun it" and I had no instant response which forced me off onto the side of the FW. If I knew Hyundai was going to offer a turbo Sonata I would have waited, in fact I'm planning on waiting for it. Be safe Camry owners!
There is no need to hold a grudge buddy, some self discovery would go a long way...
Then the ES and IS sandwich the C class.
Conversely, the ML and the new GLK sandwich the Lexus RX.
So your price comparisons don't really apply. Mercedes' discounts are much steeper than Lexus', period.
Tell us, who are these "posters" you keep referring to?
These so-called "fanboys"? AKA "devotees".
Link at least? I certainly never said that.
I trust Automotive News over the LA Times any day.
http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20101105/RETAIL01/101109885/1- 448
Wouldn't surprise me if LA Times did something stupid like include Smart ForTwo sales in with Mercedes.
2010 YTD numbers are:
Mercedes 184438 [NOT!]
Lexus 183529
LOL!
LA Times is totally wrong.
Straight from Mercedes itself:
http://www.emercedesbenz.com/autos/mercedes-benz/corporate-news/mercedes-benz-ca- - - - rs-worldwide-sales-increase-14-percent-in-october-2010/
U.S. 18,400 +0.9 178,100 +15.9
Mercedes rounds to the nearest 100, so it's a match to Automotive News.
You should know better than to trust LA Times over Automotive News, that was naive at best.
link title
What a tool. :sick:
WOODCLIFF LAKE, N.J., Nov. 2, 2010 /PRNewswire/ --The BMW Group in the U.S. (BMW and MINI combined) reported October sales of 23,222 vehicles, an increase of 12.6 percent from the 20,619 vehicles sold in October 2009. Year-to-date, the BMW Group also reported a sales volume of 215,274 vehicles, up 7.7 percent from the 199,838 units sold through October 2009.
We have a difference here. According to MB on clubLexus:
Impressive gains continued in both the Mercedes-Benz passenger car and light-truck categories. The strongest performer for the month was the 9th generation E-Class with sales of 5,568, bringing the year-to-date total to 50,298 (up 53.3%). The popular and sporty C-Class followed with sales of 3,771 and the versatile M-Class SUV rounded out the top three volume performers with sales of 2,826 for the month.
Sales at the high end continued strong with sales of the flagship S-Class up 60.4%. Also showing strong gains for the month were the CLS coupe up 47.5% and the spacious R-Class crossover up 52%. The company also sold 59 of the newly launched supercar - the SLS AMG - bringing its year-to-date sales to 415.
On a year-to-date basis, the company sold 184,431 new vehicles, an increase of 20.1 % over last year.
http://www.clublexus.com/forums/car-chat/533588-october-2010-auto-sales-thread-2- .html
And here's the link to the Wall Street Journal: WSJ
The online article of the LA Times is slightly different from the printed article on the actual newspaper I received. The printed version listed the YTD MB sales of 184438, exactly matches the WSJ number. The online version rounded it up to 184000.
YTD Market Share
GM =19.3%
F = 16.6%
TM = 15.3%
Far from it.
Plus if you include MINI, you'd have to include Toyota and Scion, and BMW would get crushed.
Face the facts - Lexus is the #1 luxury brand in the USA, even in their worst year ever (undisputable), even using half the incentives of #2.
I'm sure they are including Smart sales or something like that, or maybe they included Canada and meant North American sales.
I showed Mercedes' own numbers ... each person can decide what they want to believe (I can lead a horse to water, but I can't make him drink!).
Link again to Mercedes' own site:
http://www.emercedesbenz.com/autos/mercedes-benz/corporate-news/mercedes-benz-ca- - rs-worldwide-sales-increase-14-percent-in-october-2010/
I'm pretty sure the Germans know how to count.
Who knows what numbers WSJ is using. Maybe just like the LA times they're using North American sales for some, USA only for other makes.
I'm not saying they're wrong, but I'd check Automotive News for an accurate count.
Sprint is not a luxury car (far from it), so Automotive News and Mercedes do not include them in their totals.
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2010/11/mercedes-benz-and-smart-usa-sales.html
Including the Sprinter takes Mercedes-Benz's total to 19,076
So LA Times was quoting total for the Mercedes brand, not luxury car sales.
That distorts the growth, too, because Sprinter used to be badged as a Dodge.
About the time the GS, ES & IS are luxury cars. Face it the only real luxury car in the Lexus lineup is the LS. Rest are wannabes. Same would go for BMW and MB and their entry level luxury vehicles.
The truth is the S class MB is kicking Lexus butt with their LS models. And in the Luxury utes the Cadillac is tops in sales. The Escalade sells over 5 to 1 on the LX570. We can shift around the models and get the spin to go our way. Bottom line is Toyota is steadily losing market share. Cheapening their vehicles to keep the Family in Japan happy will not gain them much in the long haul.
And Lexus has not lost any share at all, despite the ancient IS and GS models due to be replaced soon.
Spin all you want, Lexus is still the #1 luxury brand in the USA.
http://www.egmcartech.com/2010/11/08/honda-ceo-acuras-direction-will-be-smart-pr- emium-not-top-tier/
Honda Motor CEO Takanobu Ito:
We call this ‘smart.’ We agreed that smart premium is what we should be targeting with Acura, not the upper-segment vehicles such as Lexus or Mercedes-Benz.
AN called it "The most disappointing new vehicle of the year". Ouch.
Read more: http://www.autonews.com/article/20101105/BLOG06/101109865/-1#ixzz14p0CqUlx
You know it's bad when people fondly remember "pre-beak Acuras".
I said it above, Honda is their own worst enemy.
Plus we have posters who have never owned either of them so their opinions are merely just that... opinions. Opinions only based on by what they read on these very boards even.
As a 7 time Honda owner, I share the same opinion about them as you do. They're still good cars with a solid reputation (even if some will say it's all phoney). Yup, I've got hundreds of thousands of miles of experience to back up my claims.
Never owned a Toyota tho so I can't speak for them tho.
Also keep in mind to that there is a couple of "failures" out there that are struggling for their lives, even with 60 billion in tax money to brush their blundering under the rugs...
So it is up to those "anti-everything that doesn't wear an "American nameplate" (yeah right, what's that)"" guys to keep the anti-everything that doesn't..." bashing going. As if internet forums might actually make a difference in peoples buying choices...
Don't read into it too much. There are a good group of guys here that keep some great discussions going. Cheers! :shades:
So much for the "real luxury car" part. :P
And it will still blow away the LS in image and sales, especially in the global market.
The top 2 sellers for Mercedes start 10k higher than the top 2 for Lexus.
This is only comparing base MSRP.
Haha, since when you become an authority over LA Times and Wall Street Journal?
Toyota really owes you something. Their failure really makes you work extra hard to defend them, even be more denial and defensive than them.
Trouble is, neither you nor Toyota can change the facts and people's opinion.
Man that Genesis.....
S-class certainly should outsell the LS, the LS only uses a V8 (and a hybrid variant also with the V8). The Benz has all sorts of power, too many to list.
People are critical that Toy/Lex is using incentives, but their competitors are using much higher incentives. The market is simply much more competitive than it was a decade ago.
BMW's incentives are 50% higher and yet they got beat by Lexus, MB's incentives are 100% higher and yet they got beat by Lexus, and Cadillac has incentives that are 150% higher and they weren't even close.
Similarly, Toyota has the lowest incentives of the Big 6.
I never said I was the authority, I said Automotive News was the authority. You can't compare a mainstream newspaper to an industry weekly.
Not to mention, the real authority on Mercedes-Benz sales is ... drum roll please: Mercedes-Benz.
Hence the link I provided.
neither you nor Toyota can change the facts
Correct, and the fact is Lexus is the #1 luxury brand in the USA. End of argument.
That tank is going.......to........be......s......l......o......w.
Mercedes offered “crazy” lease deals on some models last month, said Jesse Toprak, vice president of industry trends for TrueCar. Leases on the C-Class sedan cost about $300 a month, comparable to deals on Honda Motor Co.'s Accord, he said.
I wonder how much money they lose on a $300 lease of a C-class.
Do they still make a C240 4Matic wagon? I may have to get me one of those if they are giving them away like that.
link title
Wouldn't be surprised if BMW doesn't follow suit.
Of course we could be looking at turbos or hybrid assist in these applications.
Having said that, I actually like that the hybrid S-class is the lowest-priced model. Not low priced, mind you, but still the most affordable.
I wonder how the diesel 4 banger will compare to the hybrid in price? I bet the diesel costs more.
Any how, Audi's would appeal more to me because the aluminum A8 is lighter. The small engine may not be as overwhelmed.
This will surely help their CAFE numbers. I guess it's better to green-up your big cars versus giving away your smaller, more economical ones. The $300 lease on the C-class is insanity.
That would be advertised incentives. What happens when you go in and work them over on an individual basis? When I bought my 07 Sequoia, I sent out emails to all 11 dealers in San Diego at the time. The prices varied from MSRP to $10k off MSRP. You know which I picked. And that was October 2007, before the economy took a real nose dive.
I was not real interested in paying over New MSRP for a slightly used Mercedes GL320 CDI at the time. MB dealer was not interested in selling their vehicle, so I went for the Toyota. I would have saved about $1500 in fuel costs to date. Not hardly worth the $30k more for the Mercedes.
Toyota will offer big incentives if you have a heart for dealing.
Toyota gets the invoice price minus incentives, no matter what.
The $300 C-class lease is subsidized by Mercedes. They pay the incentives. The dealer just delivers the car and gets their fee.
Let me look and see what sort of deals I can find today...I'll be back.