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Toyota on the mend?

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  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    edited August 2012
    sucked, and so did its sales.

    Maybe if they brought something to market with the flair and originality of the first Matrix, they could get back on the right foot with that model.

    One thing is for sure, wagons and hatchbacks are on the rise in sales again. How ironic that Subaru and Volvo just cancelled their wagons, and that Toyota has no wagons except the Prius V...unless you include the very weird Venza, which I don't.

    That new Auris looks nice, they should bring that here. But is it hybrid-only in Europe? If they sold it here with a regular small gas motor, I think it would sell pretty well.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited August 2012
    I wasn't a fan, either. The side window behind the C-pillar was ridiculously small, so visibility was awful. I liked the Corolla Fielder (a true wagon) much better.

    Scion xB and xD didn't have windows behind the C-pillar at all. All 3 were poor redesigns.

    The trend has been towards 5 door hatches vs longer wagons, but I'd like to see the latter make a come back, sure.

    Auris is not hybrid only. I think it comes in gas and even diesel.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    For a lot of entry luxury cars, including the IS and ES:

    http://www.autoblog.com/2012/08/14/iihs-launching-first-new-frontal-crash-test-s- ince-1995-w-video/

    They scored Poor as did the C class and A4.

    This sort of proves the theory that cars had been designed to do well in specific crash tests.

    Video here:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=mp0TWp-4Z28
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Japan’s Automakers Continue Rebound, Toyota Unstoppable

    Tracking the race for world’s largest automaker, there is little change from last month. January through July, Toyota is half a million units ahead of number two which is some 400,000 units ahead of Volkswagen. This trend has been unchanged throughout the year . It most likely won’t change by year’s end – unless something drastic happens.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,877
    Toyota Unstoppable

    So I've heard. :)
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Good one.

    Hey, at least you're bustin' on them in a Toyota thread now. :P
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    A spy photo indicates no more rear tire hanging off the back and no more rear door opening the wrong way on the upcoming 2013 RAV4.

    2013 Toyota RAV4 Spotted in Southern California (Straightline)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Finally.

    Only took them, what, 18 model years to correct that?

    Wonder how the schnoz will look on this one. It definitely looks better on the taller Auris vs, say, the Avalon.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Toyota came out with the fewest reported problems of any brand

    http://www.autoblog.com/2012/08/30/volkswagen-again-named-tops-in-total-quality-- survey-by-strategic/

    They didn't win any single category, however.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    When the RAV4 debuted, it was this quirky little car-based jeeplet, and I think back then it was kinda cool for it to have a side-swinging rear door with a spare tire mounted on it. Made it different from the crowd.

    But when they revised it into the large boring mainstream crossover it became for the 2006 MY, it was really a mistake not to make the back end conventional at that point.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I wonder what size they'll go with?

    The outgoing one offered a (ridiculously small) 3rd row.

    I really don't think it needs that.

    Europe got a SWB variant, ours was stretched. Compare the rear doors and you can really tell.

    I wonder if they'll downsize slightly this time.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Today's press release:

    Average True Cost of Incentives for Toyota is down 24% vs. August 2011. Good chart at the link.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Surprising.

    You'd think incentives would be up given they have more inventory now.

    They just have newer models.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Supposedly, the next one is going to spawn a small Lexus crossover to compete with the Audi Q3 and upcoming Volvo XC40 (will probably end up being compared to the BMW X1 which is silly IMO), so I bet this new one will be a bit shortened and more "toned up".
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    If they do make two wheelbases, it would make sense to use the short one for Lexus and add more content.

    The RX is smaller than the Highlander, and they sell about a billion of them.

    Much to some people's dismay. :D
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    I saw some more speculation today that the third row is history after the revise, and possibly the V-6 too. Could RAV4 get the first small turbo in the Toyota lineup as a replacement for the V-6? More likely the Camry's hybrid setup, I would say....

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I remember reading the RAV4 V6 FWD was the quickest vehicle in their lineup, but that probably is overkill for a compact crossover. How many have you seen towing a trailer or with the 3rd row in use?

    Not sure I've ever seen either.

    CR-V outsells the RAV4 and that's with only one engine choice.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Volume up 46% per Automotive News.

    $4 gas ain't hurting hybrid sales, tell you that.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    I wonder if they'll downsize slightly this time.

    It'll be withing millimeters of the CRV.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    http://pressroom.toyota.com/releases/august+2012+sales+chart.htm

    Scion and Lexus both did well. For the month Lexus led in lux sales but we're 2/3rds done for the year and they won't have time to catch up to M-B. BMW took a plunge.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,431
    "Lexus Captivates Audiences with the 2013 ES Marketing Campaign"

    God I hate marketing suits. Captivates? Seriously?

    Was the GS listed, or did I miss it?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    ES sales nearly doubled. I know it doesn't appeal to you (or me) but it's selling.

    The re-do wasn't even dramatic. Carry-over powertrain.

    GS volume is up 421%. :surprise:

    Wow, GS actually outsold the BMW 5, though both are still well behind the E class.

    Told ya BMW softened up the 5 too much. You drive it and it doesn't draw you in like previous ones did. If you want sporty you get a 3 series and if you want luxury I guess you get something else.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,431
    But people being "captivated" by the ad campaign?

    Old ES was really old, no doubt some were simply holding off waiting for the even number new one. Yes it sells, affluent people who can barely fog a mirror need cars too ;)

    I wonder if the next Lexus Christmas ads will feature a big wheel - loving kid who ends up with an ES?

    So they sold 421 GS?

    I've read some less than glowing reports about the 5er from people who have rented them - they are apparently in the National and Avis fleets now. If you want luxury, you buy the MB...
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    It's marketing ... all sizzle no steak.

    Wonder if BMW will make adjustments with the mid-model makeover?
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    I'd also consider the A-6 over the 5er, and possibly over the E-Class. Only going by what I've read and seen, since I haven't driven any of them. Also, the '14 CTS, due next year, may finally be competitive. GM seems to be serious about restoring Cadillac to its old glory.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I've driven the 5er and the E, then a 5 GT with the V8.

    The 6 turbo isn't responsive the way it used to feel when normally aspirated and especially in the lighter 3 series. There's some throttle lag there. Plus it didn't feel particularly sporty. I think they figured it's a big sedan and the 1 and 3 can serve that target.

    The GT with the V8 was a lot more responsive but just looking at the price made my eyes bleed.

    The E350 felt good, between the two Bimmer engines. Better repsonse, even if it's ultimately not as fast. The DI helps. You feel substance, not sporty, and that's fine, even intentional.

    The 4 banger turbos from both M-B and BMW have the same throttle lag issue, but we should get used to it because that's the future. :sick:

    Wonder if the IS will keep the big V6, or go forced induction? CAFE rules are tough, but maybe Lexus can offset with give-away Scion leases.

    I'm torn on the small engine/forced induction trend. I get why they do it, you get V6 performance with 4 banger economy, but responsiveness is inevitably lost. At least lag isn't as bad as it used to be.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,431
    It's captivating. The new ES!

    Maybe BMW still has the dies for the E39 and can remake it.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited September 2012
    Jaguar used to appeal to emotions ... it's a fickle market place.

    Resale values eventually catch up to owners who choose like that.

    Looks like BMW had supply issues, per Ward's they only had 15 days' supply on hand. Probably cleared 'em out last month with lease give-aways, so this was the hangover.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    1. ES - 7,557
    2. C-Class - 6,519
    3. G - 6,261
    4. 3-Series - 6,202
    5. CTS - 5,136
    6. A4/5 - 4,864
    7. MKZ - 3,327
    8. TL - 3,201
    9. IS - 2,369
    10. TSX - 2,103
    11. S60 - 2,038

    I wonder if they make the IS better, would that hurt the ES?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    courtesy of TSX69:

    Verano 5,200
    ILX 1,733; hybrid 136
    CT 1,472 -32.1%

    CT feeling the new competitor pressure.

    IS 2,369 -20.4%
    TSX 2,103 -10.5%; wagon 270 +34.5%
    Regal 2,072 -45.8%
    A3 715 -6.4%
    1series 477 -25.6%

    IS not doing bad if you look at entry models.

    ES 7,557 +87.2%
    Cclass 6,519 +37.9%
    3series 6,206 -29.3%
    LaCrosse 5,593 +3.2%
    CTS 5,136 -11.2%
    G 5,123 +20.1%; coupe 1,138 -11.2%
    MKZ 3,327 +42.4%
    TL 3,201 +33.2%
    A4 3,187 +21.5%

    ES is brand new but looks like a hit.

    Eclass 4,515 -19.8%
    XTS 2,158
    GS 1,831 +371.9%
    5series 1,688
    A6 1,569 +58.6%
    MKS 1,019 -32%
    M 666 -37.9%
    RL 41 0%

    BMW is the big loser here, but could be lack of supply?

    Sclass 927 -5.5%
    LS 786 -7.2%
    A8 470 +.4%
    7series 339 -56.3%
    TownCar 78 -93.5%

    Ouch BMW.

    RX 8,628 +27.7%
    RDX 2,926 +156.9%
    GLK 2,775 +43.6%
    X3 2,829 +18.8%
    Q5 2,007 -12.8%
    EX 216 -58.1%

    This guy put RX sales vs compacts, but IMHO it's a mid-sizer so I'd move it to the chart below. Either way it leads sales. RDX is a hit. Told ya the EX was too small.

    MDX 5,549 +77.5%
    SRX 5,203 +12.4%
    Enclave 5,125 -4.9%
    X5 3,568 +21.2%
    MKX 2,518 +27.8%
    JX 2,378
    Mclass 2,243 +2.4%
    GX 1,071 +7.7%
    Q7 951 +32.1%
    FX 608 -17.9%

    Thought the M class would be doing better since it's fresh. Bionic Cheetah faded once the JX came out.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,431
    edited September 2012
    Odd comparison there, IS and ES both same category? I look at ES as Camry/Avalon step-up more than real entry lux.

    I expect E-class sales to falter next year, 2014 is supposed to see a heavy facelift. Might be some sweetheart leases though. No shortage of 7ers at my local BMW dealer, who also has tons of 5ers. Recent fleet arrivals make me believe they just aren't selling.

    RX definitely belongs with the midsizers, its no Q5/GLK etc.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,431
    Jaguar can use sexy styling and heritage to do something many cant, especially anything related to Toyolex.

    I think the new 3er is finally starting to pick up steam.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Don't shoot the messenger, I named my source. ;)

    I don't exactly agree with the categorization either, but the info is all there to digest.

    BMW took a pretty big hit last month.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    edited September 2012
    I'm wondering whether BMW intended to evolve the 5er into a cruiser, or stretching to emphasize luxury just turned it into one. If it was intentional they should have made sure it was at least equal to the E-Class before releasing it. This market doesn't forgive "almost-as-good."

    As for the IS, it's too cramped, especially in the back seat, to be considered, in my opinion. Hopefully they'll fix this shortcoming in the next generation. The first gen IS was more competitive with the 3-Series than the current one, but it only came with an automatic in the U.S. Maybe Lexus will get it right on the third try.

    My wife and I are happy with our A4 2.0T. Sure, there's a slight turbo lag coming off of very low rpms, and it's not quite as smooth or quiet as a six, but we don't mind these things. Some might, and others will just get used to it and not even think about it after a while. Also, manufacturers will keep improving the fours.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    In Dynamic mode the last A4 I drove was an even match with the 3 series.

    Audi did well tuning that. In Comfort setting it felt like the Benz C or IS, and in Dynamic it felt like the 3 series.

    I drove the 3l V6, though.

    The Audi was the one that could sort of play both angles, though. No wonder their sales have improved.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    The first gen IS was more competitive with the 3-Series than the current one, but it only came with an automatic in the U.S.

    Uh uh, it was available with a stick too, in fact there are 3 for sale right now in my area with a stick.

    Too bad they don't make the IS350 with a stick.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The next IS will be pivotal for them...so crucial. If it's soft they'll never be taken seriously.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,431
    Current one isn't really "soft" though is it? Just bland and very long in the tooth now.

    IMO GS is just as important, as for the Germans who Lexus so dearly wants to emulate and be held alongside, the middle car is a huge seller and image setter.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I thought it felt very soft. Lots of body roll.

    Then again these were BMW and Audi hosted events, you never know if they sabotage competitors' cars. LOL

    BMW had an RX with bald tires running against its X5.

    IS should be the volume sports sedan. ES is soft so no excuses. They should make the IS appeal to the buyers with ... how can I put this in a way you'll understand... with a pulse. ;)
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,431
    I'm sure that's it, sabotage is what makes Lexus soft :shades:

    Right now, the IS seems to sell to those who would also consider an ES, but are too young for one. Make it too much of an actual car and some of those buyers might buy another model. But on the plus side, some new buyers might come from other brands. Probably a win for the isolating L.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'd like to see them get away from the IS being a stepping stone to the ES.

    They have the CT for entry buyers that want $299 leases.

    Let the IS take a different path.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,431
    But the CT is kind of dorky to many. The IS is something seen as sporty for people who are afraid to actually buy something interesting - kind of like a deluxe Scion in that mindset. Price it too high and buyers will remain with lease queen Germans, too.

    When is the new one FINALLY going to arrive, anyway?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The dork who buys a CT will buy an ES hybrid next.

    You mention Scion and I was thinking about it - it could be re-launched as the sporty division for Toyota. Sell an FR-S based sedan and roadster.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,431
    Or maybe the Camry hybrid driver will pick the ES. I see more than a few older people in the CT.

    An FR-S sedan isn't a bad idea at all.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    A guy in RWTIV is going from a Camry hyrid to a Wrangler Rubicon. :confuse:
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,431
    Divorce? Midlife crisis?
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    To do the "divorce/midlife crisis" thing right, one needs a bright red sportscar, a Hawaiian shirt open to the navel, sunglasses, several flashy pieces of bling, and a blonde gold-digging bimbo young enough to be one's daughter in the passenger seat! :P
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    No idea, but I'm gonna go trade in my roadster for a Unimog. :D
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Let's see how I do on your list....

    bright red sportscar - mine's blue
    Hawaiian shirt - on Fridays in the summer
    open to the navel - no, the ID and smart phone in my pocket would sag
    sunglasses - check
    bling - no, only a wedding band
    blonde gold-digging bimbo young enough to be one's daughter in the passenger sea - my puppy's kinda blonde

    LOL

    So about half of those.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Most of that criteria to me sounds like you should be driving a Vette! Get yourself a set of RayBans, a nice bright pink Members Only jacket and your all set!

    Well the Bling could be more of an Escalade driver but still... :shades:
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