"The first 10's are being loaded on vessels as we speak to arrive here mid to late May. The pricing was announced on the 21st, last week."
well that pretty well kills any chance of 2009 hotcakes selling doesn't it? I don't expect we will see people taking out car loans in the 20 to 30K bracket as long as the economy is on the ropes. If GM goes under as well the unemployment rate we now have will look good compared to the jobs that will fold after that happens.
I just have my doubts if gas will hit $4.00 in 09 if it even does in 10. And if it does who will pay more for a left over 09 than they would for a new 10? Nippon once commented that entry level cars will more than likely be the first ones to show signs of recovery and the 09 prius will not be entry level.
Like I said if the economy does recover then $4.00 gas would seem like a small price to pay. But it doesn't look like the economy is going to recover and I doubt if Toyota Finance can carry the whole burden on their own. I wonder if they will offer a buy back program like Hyundai? Something the "experts" said a car manufacturer could never do and yet Hyundai is doing it.
By the way have you seen some of the default rates the credit unions are faced with? It seems if people are willing to give up their car before they lose their home.
I wonder if they will offer a buy back program like Hyundai? Something the "experts" said a car manufacturer could never do and yet Hyundai is doing it.
In many ways the "we'll make your payments for 9 months if you lose your job" schemes are better from the consumer's point of view because you often need a car to get a job. Of course if it takes longer than 9 months to get a job, well the only thing you can say is that you are 9 months closer to not being upside down if you do eventually need to liquidate the car.
Nippon once commented that entry level cars will more than likely be the first ones to show signs of recovery and the 09 prius will not be entry level.
Well you can get a 40 mpg stick shift Yaris with all the bells and whistles except keyless and cruise for $14K....or you can spend $6-8K more and get a new Prius that makes 50 mpg. That's a big gap in price. I know my choice would be Yaris, and I think if we see any recovery at all this year, it will be in the smaller cheaper cars. Someone on the boards here just replaced his Echo with a Yaris this month. Prius was never in consideration, but then, we Echo owners are a fiercely loyal bunch! :-P
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
well I know if I had to replace my 4 banger, and I pray I don't have to at this time, the Koreans, or Aveo or something under 15k would be what I was looking at. I sure wouldn't invest in something at 20+k with the economy heading south. But I have never been the over extend kind. If worse came to worse I always wanted to be able to sell off the excess to hold on to just what I needed. I absolutely wouldn't get a 09 prius if the 10 will be less expensive. In fact I might not have coffee with someone that did because I might be afraid their logic would infect me. Still I would wait till I had no choice before I decided to get a new car in this economy.
GM improves, Toyota slips as industry decline eases
Ford, Honda and General Motors posted their smallest sales declines of the year in April, while Nissan and Toyota had their largest, as the industry improved from depressed levels of February and March.
Drops of 33 percent at Ford Motor Co. and GM were in line with analysts' forecasts, as was American Honda's 25.3 percent slide. Nissan North America's 37.8 percent fall and Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A.'s 41.9 percent tumble were steeper than forecasts.
....Ford Motor outsold Toyota for the first time since March 2008.
And in the "oh for shame!" category: The Honda Accord was the best-selling vehicle in the United States, unseating Ford's F-series pickup.
Note there's no mention of the Camry there. :-P
For the first time, Toyota is now declining faster than the overall market for the YTD, and significantly faster than Honda is. That is during a period when Honda is continuing business as usual and Toyota is piling on the cash rebates. THAT can't be good!
Toyota had announced internally that they had pulled the plug on exports from Japan until further notice. This primarily affects the Yaris, Scions, 4Runner, Highlander ( for a while ) and many Lexus'. The 2010 Prius is not included in this but I don't see there being a huge number of them coming forth.
Since they are not going to ship as much here and since they had the Tundra/Sequoia products shut down for 90+ days there simply are fewer vehicles being made available....thus few sales.
In essence Toyota is shrinking itself intentionally.
Yes it's an amazing concept. In tough times with basic demand down 35% ...ship less to match supply with demand. In times when currency issues put imports at a disadvantage ... make more in NA. Gosh what a unique concept.
These are two key reason that of the largest vehicle makers Toyota has by far the stongest financials .... thus nowhere near BK court.
Any company which has a realistic 50-year plan (as well as shorter term plans) as Toyota does is well able to deal with a short term glitch such as we are now experiencing. The problems start when you can't see beyond next quarter's SUV / pickup sales.
but if you have a Union like the UAW that is really not fully on board with the Company they're working for, things go down the potter really quickly. Unionites not autoworkers, that's what they are in relation to Ford, Chrysler and GM.
Those that are more interested in sucking down profits and keeping legacy costs high, that would be the UAW. Putting bigger tariffs on imports is not the answer, either, because the backlash caused by the larger charges for a product the U.S. wants to buy from Japan would only anger and frustrate consumers further. And that is what the U.S. has found out historically with the trade "imbalance" issues, it's a tradeoff enacted for the better good of trade overall. The bottom line is: Is what you are building what the people want? Or not?
Toyota and their "just in time" parts philosophy and actual car supplying philosophy is a lot more in tune with reality than the domestics seem to be. Hopefully the Big 3 will learn some supply and demand ratios during this manufacturing downtime.
Mitsubishi is cutting back employees and manufacturing as needed as well, and their focus is to build real good small cars, cars that are fun to look at and fun to drive. Which includes their all-electric powertrain vehicle the i-MiEV. We're about a year off still until that car comes here, and there is now talk about building the i-MiEV in Mitsubishi's Normal, IL plant.
That's the Mitsu plant whose UAW workers voted on whether to strike last August but kept the vote secret. They got a new contract in September, '08, and I don't know if anyone knows how the vote went. (Manufacturing.net)
Coming close to calling a strike (their last one was in 2001) doesn't seem to be all that fully "on board."
Trying to shape Toyota's shrinkage as part of some intentional grand plan reminds me of how some people think foreign cars need maintenance while Detroit iron needs repairs. :P
perception thing. It's a powerful sales force that shapes people's viewpoints on the value of a car brand.
For years Kia and Hyundai have fought this, and it's improving and has been for the past 7 years. But there's still many that think they're looking at buying one of Malcom Bricklin's original Subie's when they look at Hyun/Kia's. Not really truth be that.
And yes, I agree, the UAW could have a detrimental effect on Mitsu's Normal, IL, plant by striking. I'll have to do some more reading on the Normal situation and see if the droves are content or "up in arms."
Hope they've remembered to apply their deodorant to those underarms, and also that they've avoided anti-perspirant in the mix, as it can cause inflamed underarms. :surprise: Look that one up if you're so inclined. Apparently the ingredients in anti-perspirant can have a "potentially" caustic affect on a person's body pH. Or lymph nodes. Hugh Lorrie, ya out there?
Be sure and take all of that last nugget of information with a grain of sea salt.
Trying to shape Toyota's shrinkage as part of some intentional grand plan reminds me of how some people think foreign cars need maintenance while Detroit iron needs repairs.
Toyota didn't plan for a downturn and consequent shrinkage, but they did plan so that if a downturn occurred they could react effectively to it.
How the stock holders react to Toyota planning to shrink enough to report its first loss in years? Now that we know such reduction in sales is intentional. Not reactive at all. Like intentionally asking for 2 billion dollars from the Japanese government? Great plan when you are intentionally reducing your production. It doesn't sound a bit like spin. How did they miss the 38.4 percent sales loss so far this year? :confuse:
It's intentional because the overall worldwide demand has fallen by 35%. They are reacting to market trends. It's very reactive.
How did they miss the sales loss? What does this mean?
If you mean 'How did they not see it?' No one saw it. Not a single company in the entire world in any field saw this economic disaster occuring within 12 months. Did you somehow have the impression that Toyota was omnicient? It's a human organization run by humans.
If you mean 'How are they dealing with the the 38% downturn?' Like every other asset-intensive company in this field and steel and aluminum they are going to take losses because the assets that they must have in place to do business are not being used to full capacity. This means that they have too many fixed assets sitting idle until the market picks up again. So the company tries to cut costs and hold down unnecessary production in order to maintain the value of the product.
If you mean 'How are they going to handle the financial losses of a sudden loss of 35% of it's sales revenue?' Then that's where Toyota has done much much better than any other maker because it's financial strength is the best of any ot them. It will take billions in losses which it can handle without bankrupting the company the when the market recovers it will begin to make billions in profits again.
Trying to shape Toyota's shrinkage as part of some intentional grand plan reminds me of how some people think foreign cars need maintenance while Detroit iron needs repairs
It also makes you wonder why Honda didn't feel the need to shrink so much, eh?! To the tune of 15% less shrinkage, with the result that Accord is back on the top of the sales heap last month?! ;-)
Traded out of my '07 Toyota this weekend, bought a new Subaru. After a quarter of a century of buying Toyotas, I think I have bought my last new one.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Toyota boosts incentives to counter 41% April drop
May 2, 2009 - 12:24 am ET
LOS ANGELES -- Toyota Division will respond to a 41.1 percent April slide in U.S. sales by pushing more leases, reducing interest rates and offering more consumer cash.
This month the company also will begin to boost production of its best-selling car, the Camry, as well as the RAV4 SUV.
The division lost 1.5 percentage points of market share for April, falling behind Ford Division and Chevrolet as the top-selling makes in the United States. Toyota's share stands at 13.7 percent after four months, down from 13.9 at the start of the year.
"We're confident we will grow market share through 2009," Bob Carter, division general manager, said on a conference call to discuss April results.
.....Carter said the promotion will focus primarily on leases in the East and interest rates as low as 0 percent in areas including the West and Midwest.
Carter said there will be an "enhanced package" of incentives compared with what Toyota currently offers. He didn't elaborate.
.....Combined sales of Toyota, Scion and Lexus models fell 41.9 percent in April, the steepest drop for Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A. Inc. this year. Industry sales dropped 34.3 percent for the year's smallest decline.
On the plus side, Toyota doesn't have a ton of excess standing inventory:
He said stocks for all Toyota models have been reduced to a 58-day supply and supplies of some have gotten too tight.
And apparently dealers are asking for increased Camry and RAV4 production, which Toyota has promised to do. I can't remember if the RAV4 is still sourced from Japan, or if it comes from North America now.
So look for even better deals on a new Toyota as they try to slow the decline.....
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Toyota has done much much better than any other maker because it's financial strength is the best of any ot them.
I would say the best of them is VW. They are not down as much in sales. In fact last I read they passed Toyota in World Wide sales first quarter 2009. They also showed a profit last year making them more financially sound than a company that lost money last year. Toyota suffered more than twice the percentage loss last year to VW in the USA. Partially due to the fact that VW has not spent a lot on the US market. They know where the big fish are in the Pond. It ain't the USA. Toyota expanded into big trucks when they should have offered their great small diesel trucks. Big Mistake IMO. How long will they keep their employees mowing the lawns and changing light bulbs?
In comparison to Honda and Hyundai more of Toyota's business in the past several years came from BOF vehicles which are bearing the brunt of this retraction in NA. It makes sense then that its business would be off more than Honda's. For this the ex-CEO Watanabe was canned.
OTOH for the last 15 yrs as Toyota grew its BOF vehicle business it made far more profit than Honda or Nissan did because the BOF vehicles were far more profitable than Camry's and Corolla's or Accords and Civics. All those profitable years may have given it a larger umbrella in order to weather this storm. We will see.
Most RAVs if not all of them are now made in Woodstock ON.
Yes they weren't very agressive in pricing for the last two months, it looks like that's about to change even though certain models may be in very short supply soon. Yaris', Scions, 4Runners, FJ's, Solara's and Sequoias will likley be tough to impossible to find as we go into summer.
The World’s largest car company has run out of storage lots in Northerrn Europe
NA has plenty of land available if such storage were needed.. This subject herein is about Toyota NA. We are short in several products as I noted above with the warning that the situation will not improve during the summer. However this does not apply to NA-made products where we will have all the supply we might need.
I know that, but the discussions we've been having in this thread concern NA?
OK, Northern Europe has a lack of land for empty vehicle storage, granted. Your response was to a post indicating a tightning of supply in N America. Is there a logical connection?
Well, I hear you kdh, but it doesn't seem like good inventory practices to have a shortage of your only convertible going into the summer months. And all the BOF talk has nothing to do with the reason why, despite $1500 in cash AND special financing, Camry doesn't sell as well as Accord any more. Now, is tight inventory the reason? But there should be no reason for tight inventory in a North American built vehicle, when that would clearly represent a production slowdown. If it sells they need to be cranking them out right now.
I was waiting for the hammer to drop on Yarises, and then I heard from you that the yen exchange rate had improved a lot, which makes it seem really dumb to be low on supplies of their least expensive car (what with being in the middle of a recession and all).
Thanks for the confirmation on RAV4 being built in Woodstock. I had a feeling that was the case now. So the two models they plan to build more of in the months to come are both North American built - that's good as supply can come on-line quickly.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The currency has rebounded back to just under the 100:1 range.
From your earlier post I think that we'll see an entirely different attitude this month on the Camry and Corolla. We also have a Honda store we own. They had great incentives last month that the Camry didn't have. Buying an Accord at invoice was unheard of in our area. Last month the stores were pushing them out the door at invoice and happy to do it. From Edmunds here...
$1000 Cash to Dealer start: 03/18/2009 end: 05/04/2009 Get Dealer Pricing Restrictions Dealer Cash is combinable with Special APR. Comments Dealer participation may vary. Incentives and Rebates are provided subject to the terms of our Visitor Agreement.
Toyota missed a step here in reacting to Honda's agression.
It is surprising to me also that the Yaris' and Scions are going to be demoted somewhat except that there is little or no margin in either vehicle. Neither can sustain much of a foreign exchange loss without being priced far too high for the segment each is in.
I don't know this for certain but while the Lexus' are more expensive they also have greater margins so each could conceivably absorb a 5% foreign exchange loss and still remain profitable - somewhat. Plus the very valuable Lexus network of dealers should not be starved of product.
From your earlier post I think that we'll see an entirely different attitude this month on the Camry and Corolla. We also have a Honda store we own. They had great incentives last month that the Camry didn't have. Buying an Accord at invoice was unheard of in our area. Last month the stores were pushing them out the door at invoice and happy to do it. From Edmunds here...
Besides that, ONE month doesn't mean a whole lot. I could go back years and the Camry would be the overall winner in sales, if that's how you want to compare them. Remember when the new Accord came out, the Camry still beat it? I'm not bashing Honda, just saying one month doesn't mean anything. Man, now that Toyota is #1, they sure are a target!!!
Personally, I wish them both well. Both great companies with a slightly different focus.
it looks like that's about to change even though certain models may be in very short supply soon. Yaris', Scions, 4Runners, FJ's, Solara's and Sequoias will likley be tough to impossible to find as we go into summer.
That may be good news for me. I would really like to sell my pristine 2007 Sequoia Limited 4X4 with only 9000 tender miles always garaged. Leather stills smells new. DVD player and wireless headsets never used. That is if I find a diesel SUV I like better.
That would be nice. I did buy it for $10,000 under MSRP, $5000 under invoice, so I have some room to deal. I would be happy to break even. That is unlikely, this is not a VW diesel I am selling. What I have going for me is patience. It took a year to get rid of that GMC Hybrid PU truck at MY PRICE. I would NEVER trade in a vehicle unless I can find a clunker and make a couple grand on a tax credit. :shades:
Not in today's market. Check Edmunds for trade-in and retail sales values.
Order of magnitude. In the past we normally carried 10-20 Sequoia's. Today we have one. When we had one previously it was a demo that when it was sold we then went 3-4 weeks without any. No one missed them. There is no demand for big V8 SUVs.
We were the largest retailer of 4Runners in 6 states selling 20-25 per week. Today we have 4.
We were and are the largest Toyota truck retailer in 6 states ( our store outsells the entire city of Pittsburgh ). Today we have 10 Tundra's and maybe 20 Tacoma's.
The market is going through a huge catharsis as the makers realign themselves to the new reality of fewer buyers and less buying power ( smaller vehicles ).
Toyota forecasts $8.6B loss, says 1 million sales will vanish
May 8, 2009 - 2:31 am ET UPDATED: 5/8/09 8:25 a.m. ET
TOKYO (Reuters) -- Toyota Motor Corp., the world's biggest automaker, forecast a much bigger-than-expected $8.6 billion loss for its current fiscal year and said it would sell about 1 million fewer vehicles as it scrambles to cut costs amid a severe market downturn.
.....In the January-March fourth quarter, Toyota booked a $6.9 billion loss, in line with consensus estimates, and cut its annual dividend nearly 30 percent -- the first cut since at least 1994, when it changed its reporting period.
While the entire industry is caught in the slump and seeking to offload cars piled up in stockyards, Toyota has been especially vulnerable due to its exposure to the United States and Japan, where sales have plunged to multi-decade lows.
Even in China, Toyota has bucked the market's rise with a fall so far this year.
.....For the year to next March, the maker of the Prius hybrid forecast an operating loss of 850 billion yen, more than double the average forecast in a survey of 20 analysts by Thomson Reuters. It sees an annual net loss of 550 billion yen based on the dollar and euro averaging 95 yen and 125 yen.
The bleak forecasts prompted ratings agency Standard & Poor's to downgrade Toyota's long-term debt ratings to AA from AA+, with a negative outlook.
And we thought GM's latest news was bad! In fact, Toyota's was worse by close to $1 billion. That's for a single quarter.
Maybe Toyota should have diversified into motorcycles:
Domestic rival Honda Motor Co. last week forecast a small profit for this year thanks to its relatively healthy motorcycle business.
"Compared with Honda, (Toyota) has a lot of larger models and a lot of excess capacity globally," said Koichi Ogawa, chief portfolio manager at Daiwa SB Investments
While Toyota did a pretty good job of cutting production enough when the recession hit the auto industry, it didn't do it quite fast enough apparently, and for that its president (Katsuaki Watanabe) apologized at a news conference yesterday.
And while they are now producing vehicles at a rate appropriate for current demand, they do have a GM-style problem due to their rapid expansion in the early part of the decade: lots and lots of plants that are only being half-used, while they wait for demand to pick back up.
Watanabe did also say that while expansion plans are on hold (no kidding!) they are not permanently abandoning any of them. Interesting, given that many folks who watch this industry say it could be many years before we reach 2007 demand levels again.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Yep it's a bit of 'live by the sword die by the sword'. When BOF vehicles were booming in the 90s and early this decade Toyota made much more money than say Honda. Honda didn't have these money makers.
But now Toyota has the semi-empty plants that were making the dinosaurs and Honda doesn't.
So the question is how quickly can Toyota react? How nimble can it be to avoid the D3 problem of too much weight bearing down on the remaining products?
Well if it's really solely the BOFs causing this calamitous loss, then we have to ask the same question everyone is asking/accusing of GM and Ford right now - why did you allow yourself to become so dependent on them, and then to STAY so dependent on them??
But the Tundra sales were expected to be 250,000 annually, the Sequoia sales less than half that. Toyota is substantially down across the board, and the 350K represented by the large BOFs isn't close to the reduction of 1 million they are talking about here. Even if you throw in 4Runner and Tacoma, which haven't been as badly hit, you wouldn't be at half a million.
I wonder how Nissan is doing.....they have a much more similar lineup to Toyota's than Honda does.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Nissan was down 35.8 percent in US sales YTD. They were off 40 percent on trucks. Suzuki is getting hammered and even Subaru is finally slipping into the negative. - .8 percent YTD and -6.7 percent April to April. Hyundai, Kia, and Subaru seem to be holding one with their smaller market share but it looks like Hyundai is starting to turn around a bit.
Before the Altima Nissan was in deep trouble and now with this downturn we will have to see just how much Renault is willing to prop them up. The Titan didn't reach projection nor did the Armanda. My guess is Nissan will report a pretty big loss this year.
Well the San Antonio plant was and is going to a 'long term' investment to be kind. It's going to have to live a good 10+ yrs to recoup its costs instead of the normal 5 yrs.
Yes Toyota was much more involved in the BOF vehicles much like the detroiters but it's product portfolio was in much better balance. Whereas the other 3 were 60-75% dependent on these products Toyota's BOF sales here were more in the range of 30-35% of total. That 30-35%, or about 600K vehicles, is in the crapper now.
But Toyota also had to account for currency losses for the last 6 months on a large part of it's sales, almost 50% which were imported, including a bunch of BOF vehicles. There was a double whammy there.
So ... they've cut back on the exports from Japan and they've cut WAY back on the BOF vehicle production. But the weight of the producing plants remains.
"and purchasing a VW would to me be in the same category as purchasing a Fiat."
There is no choice but to point out the obvious here. But anyone that would take a chance on a Kia after they went BK and were picked up by Hyundai has very little room to complain about anyone let alone Fiat. :P But you have a right to your opinion. I never liked the sales and service of VW but the new VWs almost tempted me.
Its weird, but Kia and Hyundai seem like totally different level cars to me. The Kia reeks cheapness, but the Hyundai's aren't bad even though its the same company now.
It isn't on topic so we shouldn't go too far with it but if you research the kia BK you will see Hyundai was almost forced to take Kia by the Government. They have decided to use the company as an entry level car company to get people interested in their better cars by Hyundai. Much like Toyota did with Scion. You will notice they have more quality issues with scion than Toyota and they are the same company.
But if you look at how things are right now entry level cars are doing better than just about anyone.
The low-volume Scion xB is 'middle of the pack' according to JD Power.
Your characterisations are at best unintentionally erroneous due to lack of knowledge or .... intentionally misleading. Since these ratings are so widely published and available in numerous places all over the internet you should at least check a few sources before typing.
You make it too easy. Toyota makes the scion yet Toyota's dependability is higher, or am I mis quoting something? In 2008 Toyota was rated near the top in dependability. Right below Caddy, Mercury and Lexus. Scion was below Hummer? Could that be something you missed? Maybe it doesn't fit your spin?
Not wanting to trust my memory I looked up the 2009 JD powers dependability study, posted as you say for everyone to see and two things were easy to see. Toyota still was near thee top as a whole and Scion was still below Hummer, Jeep and even Kia. Explain that if they are putting as much effort into quality as their main brand. Now look at Hyundai in the very same graph. Here is the site so everyone else can see for themselves, since you brought it up. http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2009043
Now explain how Hyundai who owns Kia can be above average and Kia well below if they are putting the same effort into both brands. And I have the very same question for Toyota quality if Scion gets such a low rating? :confuse:
I know it is tempting to cherry pick models and forget brands. There are good VW models as well but as a company? I bet there is even a good Suzuki but where are they rated? We often talk about company reputation when talking about domestics but retreat to a good model when talking about foreign cars. doubble standard? :P
Previous Toyotas: Corolla sold at 8 years, repair total $3.48 Corolla sold at 6.5 years, repair total $0
Current Toyotas: Corolla at 6 years, will keep until 8 years unless it needs repairs, repairs so far $0 Prius at 1.5 years, will keep until 8 years unless it needs repairs, repairs so far $0
Good for you but what does that have to do with the difference between Toyota and Scion dependability? I didn't say they weren't dependable I said they were more dependable than Scion. I think I only I have ever had one yota, a Small Sr-5 pickup. Rented a few Camry and liked it well enough.
But I did once consider a T-100 when they were first going to come out as a full sized truck. Didn't turn out to be a real work truck so I passed and got a Ram.
But thanks for the information even if I have no clue what it was for. :confuse:
I note with interest that neither Corolla nor Camry are on that list, but then they probably shouldn't feel bad, Honda only got one hit total, out of 18 categories....
And I guess Prius and Sienna are still satisfying their owners to the max. ;-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Yes but did scion move up on the dependability list? You can be satisfied or even reccommended but does that equate with the results of the study? Doesn't seem to when you consider it is done from "owners" responding.
A study is simply a guideline. I have one I like as well.
I would guess most people are satisfied with the looks of the tC. It is a cool looking little car. It is below VW on overall quality according to JD Powers. It is Toyota just throwing out good looking cars that do not hold up so well.
No it is not a different issue it is the issue of your attempt to dismiss my opinion of the differences between Hyundai overall dependability and Kia and Toyota’s over all dependability and Scion’s. You indicated I had no basis for that opinion and I proved there was one. As far as recommending a vehicle if I wanted to recommend a vehicle for the expedition race across Kenya I might recommend a Land Rover. Doesn’t mean in the context of these discussion they are dependable only that it is the car most race teams are using in this particular example.
In overall rating Toyota is either putting in more effort in their main brand or Scion owners are more discerning. I don’t believe the latter any more than I do that Kia owners are more discerning than Hyundai owners. Yet the “fact” remains the very study you indicated I didn’t read shows Scion and Kia much lower than Toyota and Hyundai. And I posted the site to prove it. So I read the whole thing and you attempted to spin it to say I was misleading. Same ship same topic and you are wrong. :P
Comments
well that pretty well kills any chance of 2009 hotcakes selling doesn't it? I don't expect we will see people taking out car loans in the 20 to 30K bracket as long as the economy is on the ropes. If GM goes under as well the unemployment rate we now have will look good compared to the jobs that will fold after that happens.
I just have my doubts if gas will hit $4.00 in 09 if it even does in 10. And if it does who will pay more for a left over 09 than they would for a new 10? Nippon once commented that entry level cars will more than likely be the first ones to show signs of recovery and the 09 prius will not be entry level.
Like I said if the economy does recover then $4.00 gas would seem like a small price to pay. But it doesn't look like the economy is going to recover and I doubt if Toyota Finance can carry the whole burden on their own. I wonder if they will offer a buy back program like Hyundai? Something the "experts" said a car manufacturer could never do and yet Hyundai is doing it.
By the way have you seen some of the default rates the credit unions are faced with? It seems if people are willing to give up their car before they lose their home.
In many ways the "we'll make your payments for 9 months if you lose your job" schemes are better from the consumer's point of view because you often need a car to get a job. Of course if it takes longer than 9 months to get a job, well the only thing you can say is that you are 9 months closer to not being upside down if you do eventually need to liquidate the car.
Well you can get a 40 mpg stick shift Yaris with all the bells and whistles except keyless and cruise for $14K....or you can spend $6-8K more and get a new Prius that makes 50 mpg. That's a big gap in price. I know my choice would be Yaris, and I think if we see any recovery at all this year, it will be in the smaller cheaper cars. Someone on the boards here just replaced his Echo with a Yaris this month. Prius was never in consideration, but then, we Echo owners are a fiercely loyal bunch! :-P
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Ford, Honda and General Motors posted their smallest sales declines of the year in April, while Nissan and Toyota had their largest, as the industry improved from depressed levels of February and March.
Drops of 33 percent at Ford Motor Co. and GM were in line with analysts' forecasts, as was American Honda's 25.3 percent slide. Nissan North America's 37.8 percent fall and Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A.'s 41.9 percent tumble were steeper than forecasts.
....Ford Motor outsold Toyota for the first time since March 2008.
And in the "oh for shame!" category:
The Honda Accord was the best-selling vehicle in the United States, unseating Ford's F-series pickup.
Note there's no mention of the Camry there. :-P
For the first time, Toyota is now declining faster than the overall market for the YTD, and significantly faster than Honda is. That is during a period when Honda is continuing business as usual and Toyota is piling on the cash rebates. THAT can't be good!
http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090501/ANA05/905019986/1078-
(registration link)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Since they are not going to ship as much here and since they had the Tundra/Sequoia products shut down for 90+ days there simply are fewer vehicles being made available....thus few sales.
In essence Toyota is shrinking itself intentionally.
I wonder what they called such a sales loss now I know. Intentional.
These are two key reason that of the largest vehicle makers Toyota has by far the stongest financials .... thus nowhere near BK court.
Those that are more interested in sucking down profits and keeping legacy costs high, that would be the UAW. Putting bigger tariffs on imports is not the answer, either, because the backlash caused by the larger charges for a product the U.S. wants to buy from Japan would only anger and frustrate consumers further. And that is what the U.S. has found out historically with the trade "imbalance" issues, it's a tradeoff enacted for the better good of trade overall. The bottom line is: Is what you are building what the people want? Or not?
Toyota and their "just in time" parts philosophy and actual car supplying philosophy is a lot more in tune with reality than the domestics seem to be. Hopefully the Big 3 will learn some supply and demand ratios during this manufacturing downtime.
Mitsubishi is cutting back employees and manufacturing as needed as well, and their focus is to build real good small cars, cars that are fun to look at and fun to drive. Which includes their all-electric powertrain vehicle the i-MiEV. We're about a year off still until that car comes here, and there is now talk about building the i-MiEV in Mitsubishi's Normal, IL plant.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Coming close to calling a strike (their last one was in 2001) doesn't seem to be all that fully "on board."
Trying to shape Toyota's shrinkage as part of some intentional grand plan reminds me of how some people think foreign cars need maintenance while Detroit iron needs repairs. :P
For years Kia and Hyundai have fought this, and it's improving and has been for the past 7 years. But there's still many that think they're looking at buying one of Malcom Bricklin's original Subie's when they look at Hyun/Kia's. Not really truth be that.
And yes, I agree, the UAW could have a detrimental effect on Mitsu's Normal, IL, plant by striking. I'll have to do some more reading on the Normal situation and see if the droves are content or "up in arms."
Hope they've remembered to apply their deodorant to those underarms, and also that they've avoided anti-perspirant in the mix, as it can cause inflamed underarms. :surprise: Look that one up if you're so inclined. Apparently the ingredients in anti-perspirant can have a "potentially" caustic affect on a person's body pH. Or lymph nodes. Hugh Lorrie, ya out there?
Be sure and take all of that last nugget of information with a grain of sea salt.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Toyota didn't plan for a downturn and consequent shrinkage, but they did plan so that if a downturn occurred they could react effectively to it.
http://en.ce.cn/World/Asia-Pacific/200903/04/t20090304_18386147.shtml
That about nails it - same car, different market, entirely different "common wisdom" about how good or bad the car or company is.
How did they miss the sales loss? What does this mean?
If you mean 'How did they not see it?' No one saw it. Not a single company in the entire world in any field saw this economic disaster occuring within 12 months. Did you somehow have the impression that Toyota was omnicient? It's a human organization run by humans.
If you mean 'How are they dealing with the the 38% downturn?' Like every other asset-intensive company in this field and steel and aluminum they are going to take losses because the assets that they must have in place to do business are not being used to full capacity. This means that they have too many fixed assets sitting idle until the market picks up again. So the company tries to cut costs and hold down unnecessary production in order to maintain the value of the product.
If you mean 'How are they going to handle the financial losses of a sudden loss of 35% of it's sales revenue?' Then that's where Toyota has done much much better than any other maker because it's financial strength is the best of any ot them. It will take billions in losses which it can handle without bankrupting the company the when the market recovers it will begin to make billions in profits again.
Life goes on.
It also makes you wonder why Honda didn't feel the need to shrink so much, eh?! To the tune of 15% less shrinkage, with the result that Accord is back on the top of the sales heap last month?! ;-)
Traded out of my '07 Toyota this weekend, bought a new Subaru. After a quarter of a century of buying Toyotas, I think I have bought my last new one.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Toyota boosts incentives to counter 41% April drop
May 2, 2009 - 12:24 am ET
LOS ANGELES -- Toyota Division will respond to a 41.1 percent April slide in U.S. sales by pushing more leases, reducing interest rates and offering more consumer cash.
This month the company also will begin to boost production of its best-selling car, the Camry, as well as the RAV4 SUV.
The division lost 1.5 percentage points of market share for April, falling behind Ford Division and Chevrolet as the top-selling makes in the United States. Toyota's share stands at 13.7 percent after four months, down from 13.9 at the start of the year.
"We're confident we will grow market share through 2009," Bob Carter, division general manager, said on a conference call to discuss April results.
.....Carter said the promotion will focus primarily on leases in the East and interest rates as low as 0 percent in areas including the West and Midwest.
Carter said there will be an "enhanced package" of incentives compared with what Toyota currently offers. He didn't elaborate.
.....Combined sales of Toyota, Scion and Lexus models fell 41.9 percent in April, the steepest drop for Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A. Inc. this year. Industry sales dropped 34.3 percent for the year's smallest decline.
On the plus side, Toyota doesn't have a ton of excess standing inventory:
He said stocks for all Toyota models have been reduced to a 58-day supply and supplies of some have gotten too tight.
And apparently dealers are asking for increased Camry and RAV4 production, which Toyota has promised to do. I can't remember if the RAV4 is still sourced from Japan, or if it comes from North America now.
So look for even better deals on a new Toyota as they try to slow the decline.....
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I would say the best of them is VW. They are not down as much in sales. In fact last I read they passed Toyota in World Wide sales first quarter 2009. They also showed a profit last year making them more financially sound than a company that lost money last year. Toyota suffered more than twice the percentage loss last year to VW in the USA. Partially due to the fact that VW has not spent a lot on the US market. They know where the big fish are in the Pond. It ain't the USA. Toyota expanded into big trucks when they should have offered their great small diesel trucks. Big Mistake IMO. How long will they keep their employees mowing the lawns and changing light bulbs?
Or, one of these:
Opel Ampura
It's GM's European Volt. Not to seque too far away from your guys' important beeswax.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
OTOH for the last 15 yrs as Toyota grew its BOF vehicle business it made far more profit than Honda or Nissan did because the BOF vehicles were far more profitable than Camry's and Corolla's or Accords and Civics. All those profitable years may have given it a larger umbrella in order to weather this storm. We will see.
Most RAVs if not all of them are now made in Woodstock ON.
Yes they weren't very agressive in pricing for the last two months, it looks like that's about to change even though certain models may be in very short supply soon. Yaris', Scions, 4Runners, FJ's, Solara's and Sequoias will likley be tough to impossible to find as we go into summer.
link title
link title
google
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The World’s largest car company has run out of storage lots in Northerrn Europe
NA has plenty of land available if such storage were needed.. This subject herein is about Toyota NA. We are short in several products as I noted above with the warning that the situation will not improve during the summer. However this does not apply to NA-made products where we will have all the supply we might need.
The title says "Toyota." It doesn't eliminate Toyota in Europe.
You are saying Toyota doesn't have the lots shown on TV in past weeks loaded up with unsold vehicles?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
OK, Northern Europe has a lack of land for empty vehicle storage, granted. Your response was to a post indicating a tightning of supply in N America. Is there a logical connection?
I was waiting for the hammer to drop on Yarises, and then I heard from you that the yen exchange rate had improved a lot, which makes it seem really dumb to be low on supplies of their least expensive car (what with being in the middle of a recession and all).
Thanks for the confirmation on RAV4 being built in Woodstock. I had a feeling that was the case now. So the two models they plan to build more of in the months to come are both North American built - that's good as supply can come on-line quickly.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
From your earlier post I think that we'll see an entirely different attitude this month on the Camry and Corolla. We also have a Honda store we own. They had great incentives last month that the Camry didn't have. Buying an Accord at invoice was unheard of in our area. Last month the stores were pushing them out the door at invoice and happy to do it. From Edmunds here...
$1000 Cash to Dealer start: 03/18/2009 end: 05/04/2009 Get Dealer Pricing
Restrictions Dealer Cash is combinable with Special APR.
Comments Dealer participation may vary. Incentives and Rebates are provided subject to the terms of our Visitor Agreement.
Toyota missed a step here in reacting to Honda's agression.
It is surprising to me also that the Yaris' and Scions are going to be demoted somewhat except that there is little or no margin in either vehicle. Neither can sustain much of a foreign exchange loss without being priced far too high for the segment each is in.
I don't know this for certain but while the Lexus' are more expensive they also have greater margins so each could conceivably absorb a 5% foreign exchange loss and still remain profitable - somewhat. Plus the very valuable Lexus network of dealers should not be starved of product.
Besides that, ONE month doesn't mean a whole lot. I could go back years and the Camry would be the overall winner in sales, if that's how you want to compare them. Remember when the new Accord came out, the Camry still beat it? I'm not bashing Honda, just saying one month doesn't mean anything. Man, now that Toyota is #1, they sure are a target!!!
Personally, I wish them both well. Both great companies with a slightly different focus.
That may be good news for me. I would really like to sell my pristine 2007 Sequoia Limited 4X4 with only 9000 tender miles always garaged. Leather stills smells new. DVD player and wireless headsets never used. That is if I find a diesel SUV I like better.
Sounds like you'll get above MSRP for it with all the shortages they'll be so hard to get.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Order of magnitude. In the past we normally carried 10-20 Sequoia's. Today we have one. When we had one previously it was a demo that when it was sold we then went 3-4 weeks without any. No one missed them. There is no demand for big V8 SUVs.
We were the largest retailer of 4Runners in 6 states selling 20-25 per week. Today we have 4.
We were and are the largest Toyota truck retailer in 6 states ( our store outsells the entire city of Pittsburgh ). Today we have 10 Tundra's and maybe 20 Tacoma's.
The market is going through a huge catharsis as the makers realign themselves to the new reality of fewer buyers and less buying power ( smaller vehicles ).
May 8, 2009 - 2:31 am ET
UPDATED: 5/8/09 8:25 a.m. ET
TOKYO (Reuters) -- Toyota Motor Corp., the world's biggest automaker, forecast a much bigger-than-expected $8.6 billion loss for its current fiscal year and said it would sell about 1 million fewer vehicles as it scrambles to cut costs amid a severe market downturn.
.....In the January-March fourth quarter, Toyota booked a $6.9 billion loss, in line with consensus estimates, and cut its annual dividend nearly 30 percent -- the first cut since at least 1994, when it changed its reporting period.
While the entire industry is caught in the slump and seeking to offload cars piled up in stockyards, Toyota has been especially vulnerable due to its exposure to the United States and Japan, where sales have plunged to multi-decade lows.
Even in China, Toyota has bucked the market's rise with a fall so far this year.
.....For the year to next March, the maker of the Prius hybrid forecast an operating loss of 850 billion yen, more than double the average forecast in a survey of 20 analysts by Thomson Reuters. It sees an annual net loss of 550 billion yen based on the dollar and euro averaging 95 yen and 125 yen.
The bleak forecasts prompted ratings agency Standard & Poor's to downgrade Toyota's long-term debt ratings to AA from AA+, with a negative outlook.
And we thought GM's latest news was bad! In fact, Toyota's was worse by close to $1 billion. That's for a single quarter.
Maybe Toyota should have diversified into motorcycles:
Domestic rival Honda Motor Co. last week forecast a small profit for this year thanks to its relatively healthy motorcycle business.
"Compared with Honda, (Toyota) has a lot of larger models and a lot of excess capacity globally," said Koichi Ogawa, chief portfolio manager at Daiwa SB Investments
http://www.autonews.com/article/20090508/COPY01/305089946/1078
(registration link)
While Toyota did a pretty good job of cutting production enough when the recession hit the auto industry, it didn't do it quite fast enough apparently, and for that its president (Katsuaki Watanabe) apologized at a news conference yesterday.
And while they are now producing vehicles at a rate appropriate for current demand, they do have a GM-style problem due to their rapid expansion in the early part of the decade: lots and lots of plants that are only being half-used, while they wait for demand to pick back up.
Watanabe did also say that while expansion plans are on hold (no kidding!) they are not permanently abandoning any of them. Interesting, given that many folks who watch this industry say it could be many years before we reach 2007 demand levels again.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
But now Toyota has the semi-empty plants that were making the dinosaurs and Honda doesn't.
So the question is how quickly can Toyota react? How nimble can it be to avoid the D3 problem of too much weight bearing down on the remaining products?
....'May you live in interesting times.'.....
But the Tundra sales were expected to be 250,000 annually, the Sequoia sales less than half that. Toyota is substantially down across the board, and the 350K represented by the large BOFs isn't close to the reduction of 1 million they are talking about here. Even if you throw in 4Runner and Tacoma, which haven't been as badly hit, you wouldn't be at half a million.
I wonder how Nissan is doing.....they have a much more similar lineup to Toyota's than Honda does.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Before the Altima Nissan was in deep trouble and now with this downturn we will have to see just how much Renault is willing to prop them up. The Titan didn't reach projection nor did the Armanda. My guess is Nissan will report a pretty big loss this year.
Yes Toyota was much more involved in the BOF vehicles much like the detroiters but it's product portfolio was in much better balance. Whereas the other 3 were 60-75% dependent on these products Toyota's BOF sales here were more in the range of 30-35% of total. That 30-35%, or about 600K vehicles, is in the crapper now.
But Toyota also had to account for currency losses for the last 6 months on a large part of it's sales, almost 50% which were imported, including a bunch of BOF vehicles. There was a double whammy there.
So ... they've cut back on the exports from Japan and they've cut WAY back on the BOF vehicle production. But the weight of the producing plants remains.
There is no choice but to point out the obvious here.
But if you look at how things are right now entry level cars are doing better than just about anyone.
Most reliable small car 2009 ( CR ) .. Scion xD.
http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/autos/0810/gallery.cr_most_reliable/3.html
Also very reilable sporty car 2009 ( CR ) ,, Scion tC
http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/autos/0810/gallery.cr_most_reliable/4.html
The low-volume Scion xB is 'middle of the pack' according to JD Power.
Your characterisations are at best unintentionally erroneous due to lack of knowledge or .... intentionally misleading. Since these ratings are so widely published and available in numerous places all over the internet you should at least check a few sources before typing.
Facts are your friends.
Not wanting to trust my memory I looked up the 2009 JD powers dependability study, posted as you say for everyone to see and two things were easy to see. Toyota still was near thee top as a whole and Scion was still below Hummer, Jeep and even Kia. Explain that if they are putting as much effort into quality as their main brand. Now look at Hyundai in the very same graph. Here is the site so everyone else can see for themselves, since you brought it up.
http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2009043
Now explain how Hyundai who owns Kia can be above average and Kia well below if they are putting the same effort into both brands. And I have the very same question for Toyota quality if Scion gets such a low rating? :confuse:
I know it is tempting to cherry pick models and forget brands. There are good VW models as well but as a company? I bet there is even a good Suzuki but where are they rated? We often talk about company reputation when talking about domestics but retreat to a good model when talking about foreign cars. doubble standard? :P
Corolla sold at 8 years, repair total $3.48
Corolla sold at 6.5 years, repair total $0
Current Toyotas:
Corolla at 6 years, will keep until 8 years unless it needs repairs, repairs so far $0
Prius at 1.5 years, will keep until 8 years unless it needs repairs, repairs so far $0
But I did once consider a T-100 when they were first going to come out as a full sized truck. Didn't turn out to be a real work truck so I passed and got a Ram.
But thanks for the information even if I have no clue what it was for. :confuse:
http://wot.motortrend.com/6540456/auto-news/cadillac-scores-top-brand-satisfacti- on-award-in-autopacific-survey/index.html
I note with interest that neither Corolla nor Camry are on that list, but then they probably shouldn't feel bad, Honda only got one hit total, out of 18 categories....
And I guess Prius and Sienna are still satisfying their owners to the max. ;-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
A study is simply a guideline. I have one I like as well.
http://allnurses.com/nursing-news/nurses-most-ethical-133495.html
It goes to a earlier post I made.
http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings/quality-ratings-by-brand/sortcolumn-0/ascen- ding/page-1#page-anchor
My links discuss the current 2009 models the xD and tC whereas your link discusses the overall survey of 2006 models.
This discussion is two ships passing in the night. Next.
No it is not a different issue it is the issue of your attempt to dismiss my opinion of the differences between Hyundai overall dependability and Kia and Toyota’s over all dependability and Scion’s. You indicated I had no basis for that opinion and I proved there was one. As far as recommending a vehicle if I wanted to recommend a vehicle for the expedition race across Kenya I might recommend a Land Rover. Doesn’t mean in the context of these discussion they are dependable only that it is the car most race teams are using in this particular example.
In overall rating Toyota is either putting in more effort in their main brand or Scion owners are more discerning. I don’t believe the latter any more than I do that Kia owners are more discerning than Hyundai owners. Yet the “fact” remains the very study you indicated I didn’t read shows Scion and Kia much lower than Toyota and Hyundai. And I posted the site to prove it. So I read the whole thing and you attempted to spin it to say I was misleading. Same ship same topic and you are wrong. :P