Toyota on the mend?

nippononly

AND Yaris? (and Scion xD?)

stever

(and Scion xD?)

Hmmm, Tupelo could come out with an Elvis Blue special edition to join the Electric Wasabi xD.

Suede seats naturally.

nortsr1

I recently read that Toyota is switching the COROLLA production to a plant (they already have) in Canada.

kdhspyder

That plant is well-situated for Corolla shipments to the E Coast of N America but it's limited in volume. I don't think that it can supply the 400,000+ unit volume that the Corolla will grow to in these next few years.

It's also a LONG way to the huge markets on the West Coast. I expect that these markets will be served from Japan.

nippononly

They're not switching anything, they already made Corollas at Cambridge. And I always had the impression that they were pretty much maxed out for production capacity up there. So they are going to send more than 300K Corollas per year from Japan to the States? The more I think about that, the more super-stupid it seems. They must have short-term plans to start Corolla production at a different underutilized plant. Maybe they will now go ahead and open Mississippi?

kdhspyder

My thinking as well. Corolla and Prius in Miss. Interesting to speculate.

iluvmysephia1

and patent infringement? Say it's not so.

http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1034920_toyota-hybrids-blocked-from-u-s-due-- to-patent-issues

explorerx4

i think that first judgement is costing about $25 per relevant vehicle.

kdhspyder

It's the PSD that's under contention. Long discussion about it over at PC>
It'll be resolved.

gagrice

Will it raise the price of hybrids to an extent they are not able to make money. I thought they were taking that case into the Germany to speed up the process. First I had heard about it for years.

kdhspyder

At $25 per vehicle right now it has no effect. The plaintiff just wants more money. I have no idea what will come of this except that the patent will expire in a year or two. As to pricing I see two effects.... little and none.

nippononly

Word is the NUMMI employees are extremely disgruntled. Apparently Toyota has told them that when they are let go next March, their severance pay will be $25,000. I guess that isn't enough for them (even though it is a lot more than most people getting the boot in the last 12 months), and they are up in arms.

I wouldn't want a Corolla or Tacoma coming out of that plant for the remainder of the time it is open......

colloquor

Severance pay of $25,000... and, I'm sure the UAW workers will cry over that amount.

I wish they would realize how good they've had it over the years, and how good of a severance package they're receiving.

My wife, along with several thousand others, lost her job last year after 35 years of excellent employment history and dedicated service with one of the largest regional banks in the USA. The bank was heavily vested in sub-prime mortgage loans, but she didn't even work in the mortgage area.

Her severance pay - $0

imidazol97

Toyota announces largest US recall ever, 3,800,000 vehicles.

Recall

stever

I wonder if this will hurt WeatherTech and the rest of the aftermarket floor mat businesses out there.

I just double-checked my factory mats in the van last week to make sure the floor hook was through the grommet on the mat.

larsb

Wow. I'm speechless.

lemko

...if the sudden acceleration problem is linked to the floor mats, the recall will amount to a blurb added to the owner's manual "Properly secure floor mats" or "Ensure driver's well floor mat does not interfere with accelerator pedal" or something like that.

imidazol97

It's just an owner problem. Nothing there about position of the accelerator pedal close to the floor.

andre1969

Is that an accelerator pedal or a toenail clipping? :P

mcdawgg

This picture should be expanded out to show you that the floor mat here is NOT in the clips that hold it in position. If you use the clips and don't put it on top of another mat, there is no problem at all.

stever

Looks to me like the pedal is too close to the lip of the mat and that it'd be easy to mash on the accelerator and get it stuck under the mat lip.

fezo

When was it they stopped having the gas pedal attached to the floor itself? I certainly remember cars built like that.

stever

We had this conversation the other day around here somewhere - someone reminded me that my old 70's Bugs had pedals attached to the floor, but I don't remember that.

Even in that scenario, you could drop something behind the brake and prevent it from operating properly.

andre1969

When was it they stopped having the gas pedal attached to the floor itself? I certainly remember cars built like that.

Not sure, but my '57 DeSoto and '67 Catalina both have the gas pedal attached to the floor. My '68 Dart was suspended, though. For some reason, I'm thinking my grandmother's '85 LeSabre still had a floor-mounted pedal. Or, if it was suspended, maybe it was just mounted really close to the floor? Lemko could verify, since his '89 Brougham would have the same pedal arrangement.

I also remember the floor mat in Grandmom's LeSabre causing some kind of problem, but can't put my finger on what, exactly. I think it might have had a tendency to bunch up under the brake pedal.

lemko

Yes, my Brougham has the bottom of the pedal attached to the floor.

fezo

That's what I wondering.

I remember the old 56 Buick I had as a toy years ago had it attached to the floor but I was fuzzy on the 60s and beyond cars.

berri

Don't forget those always hard to find dimmer switches on the floor!

andre1969

Don't forget those always hard to find dimmer switches on the floor!

I wonder what the first domestic car was to have the dimmer on the turn signal stalk? I'm pretty sure that when GM downsized all their big cars for 1977, it was on the stalk, and I think the same held true for the midsized cars in 1978.

Oddly, on my '76 Grand LeMans, the dimmer is on the turn signal stalk, something they made a big deal out of in the sales brochure. If you bought a base LeMans though, it was still on the floor.

Honestly, on that car I think I'd prefer it on the floor, because every time I try to flick the high-beams on with that car, the stalk feels like it's about to break off!

My guess is the Grand LeMans had that feature because the Grand Prix most likely did. And neither of those is exactly the most cutting edge in 1970's trends, so my guess is someone came out with it before that.

I think Chrysler was actually the first to come out with the multi-function stalk where they put the windshield wiper controls and cruise control on the turn signal stalk. And I think they got sued because they offered interval wipers without paying a royalty to the guy who invented them?

210delray

I always thought GM was the first of the domestics on the downsized large cars in 1977 for the dimmer switch on the turn signal stalk. I never knew about the earlier Pontiacs though. My mother's '73 Monte Carlo definitely had the dimmer on the floor (but I liked the then-new blue indicator for high beams).

fezo

Oddly, on my '76 Grand LeMans, the dimmer is on the turn signal stalk, something they made a big deal out of in the sales brochure. If you bought a base LeMans though, it was still on the floor.

I wonder how much THAT cost them to tool for two different LeManses (?). No wonder they can't control costs.

dprincipe

Purchased my 2nd Runner in Aug. At speeds of Zero to 40mph the gears shift back and forth continually. If I am driving at 35mph they drive me nuts shifting. Went to dealer and basically was told to live with it that nothing is wrong that it is normal..Also the typical "If there was anything wrong a red light would appear on the dash". I wonder if anyone else having same problem.

berri

And I think they got sued because they offered interval wipers without paying a royalty to the guy who invented them?

I think that lawsuit was against Ford. I seem to recall a book or movie about that awhile ago. Chrsyler may have settled with the guy, but Ford went to court and I think they lost.

kplacer

My '64 Skylark had the pedal attached to the floor. My '68 Cutlass has a suspended accelerator pedal.

mcdawgg

As I said before, IF you don't use the clips, this could happen. If you use the clips like the directions have always said, this can't happen. My accelerator is nowhere near the floor mat IF it is being held by the clips.

stever

And when was the last time any of us checked their clips?

210delray

I check mine quite often. They have never come loose on their own though (both in my Toyotas and my '98 Frontier).

maple2

This picture should be expanded out to show you that the floor mat here is NOT in the clips that hold it in position. If you use the clips and don't put it on top of another mat, there is no problem at all.

If this were true, why does it seem like it only affects toyotas? do only toyota owners not know how to use floor mats, everybody else can figure it out? :sick:

fezo

And when was the last time any of us checked their clips?

You should have kown someone would bite right away.

It's like the old Odd Couple episode where Felix stops a guy in te building carrying a TV set assuming it's being stolen. He asks the guy for teh serial number. The guys says "who knows the serial number on their TV?" at which point Felix rattles his off the top of his head.

Not that I'm saying 210delray is....

210delray

The problem isn't limited to Toyota. Sudden, unintended acceleration has been a reputed problem for at least a couple of decades in just about every make of vehicle. It's just that the spotlight is on Toyota because of a particularly horrible crash that killed 4 people. Remember how Audi almost went out of business in the US because of this issue back in the 80s?

As mcdawgg has stated, the hook/grommet attachment system works quite well -- I've not had a single problem in my former or current Nissans and Toyotas with this system.

210delray

Funny you should mention it, but I have memorized most of the VINs of the cars I've owned (not that I can still rattle them off from 30 years ago, though)!

I just use mnemonics, like the somewhat now politically incorrect saying to remember star temperature classes in the proper order: OBAFGKM -- Oh be a fine girl, kiss me!

mcdawgg

I've had Toyotas with floormat clips or hooks, whatever you want to call them, for the past 10 years. Everytime I take out the floormat to clean them (about 6 times per year), I have noted that the clips are perfect, and the floormat is in the proper position. I keep my cars for a long time 10 years or so.

So I check about 6 times per year, and never had a problem, even really old cars. These mats are NOT coming off the hooks, and the hooks are not breaking.

mcdawgg

Yes, I agree with 210delray. Toyota is getting screwed here, and so will the rest of us, because of a REALLY dumb, inexcusable error by a dealership.

stever

"Federal investigators said of the 102 accidents caused by stuck gas pedals on Toyota vehicles, there are four possible causes involving the floor mats: The mats are too long or too thick, they weren't properly secured, the gas pedal design is flawed or the floor geometry is defective.

The wide array of causes presents a challenge to Toyota engineers who are trying to come up with a way to fix the problem that is leading to a recall of 3.8 million vehicles, including the Camry, the top-selling car in the U.S."

Gas pedal, floor design at issue in Toyota recall (AP)

stever

"This is not a floor-mat recall,” said Brian Lyons, a Toyota spokesman. “We want to put in an on-vehicle countermeasure."

It is conceivable we could develop software so that if the gas pedal and brake pedal were hit at the same time, the brake pedal wins,” he said. “We have several ideas in mind."

Toyota Seeks Solution to Floor-Mat Issue (NY Times)

Oh, and this part about the on/off button may shed some light on the recent Lexus crash:

"Meanwhile, Toyota’s advice for handling a stuck accelerator includes how to shut off the engine in a vehicle with a starter button. When the vehicle is moving, a quick push of the button won’t do it. The button must be held down for three seconds. Mr. Lyons said that was a safety feature to prevent the engine from being shut off accidentally if the button were brushed."

larsb

I don't understand this part:

The safety advisory was prompted by an accident last month killing four people near San Diego. In that incident, a floor mat trapped the gas pedal on a 2009 Lexus ES 350, causing it to accelerate out of control, strike an SUV, launch off an embankment, and burst into flames.

No car can out-accelerate it's brakes. You floor a gas pedal in ANY car, while holding the brake down, and the car WILL NOT MOVE.

How did this accident manage to happen? Why could the guy not just STAND on the brake and stop the car?

I don't understand how it was possible.

OK, I found a more detailed explanation of the crash:

SANTEE, Calif. — Four people aboard a runaway car told each other to hold on and pray moments before their 911 call ended in screams and a fiery crash in San Diego County.

The police recording of the call details the disturbing last seconds of the Aug. 28 crash that killed a California Highway Patrol officer and three family members.

On the 50-second recording released Thursday, passenger Chris Lastrella tells the dispatcher that the accelerator is stuck. The dispatcher asks if they can turn the car off.

"We're in trouble. There's no brake," Lastrella said.

Someone tells the others in the car to hold on and pray, then woman screams and the call ends.

Witnesses said the weaving Lexus topped speeds of 120 mph before launching off an embankment and crashed and burst into flames in Santee.

Officer Mark Saylor, the driver, his wife Cleofe, their daughter Mahala, 13, and Lastrella were killed. Lastrella was Cleofe Saylor's brother.

A preliminary investigation indicated the accelerator may have become entrapped by a rubber floor mat, sheriff's Sgt. Scott Hill said.

Hill did not know if Saylor tried to shift the vehicle into neutral or turn it off, which might have been impossible if the car was experiencing a malfunction.

The car was a loaner from Bob Baker Lexus El Cajon. Company vice president Dave Ezratty refrained from commenting until the investigation is completed.

National Highway Safety Transportation Administration investigators looked at the vehicle because of a 2007 recall involving after-market "all-weather" floor mats which could slip and catch on the gas pedal, agency spokesman Ray Tyson said, adding the probe will determine whether there may be another safety defect.

So why did the brakes not stop the car? That is the big question for me.

One other story said witnesses said "the tires were on fire" and that could have been from friction of him trying to stop the car with the brake pedal.

Very puzzling.

But after an accident like this, Toyota had NO CHOICE but to issue a recall.

andre1969

No car can out-accelerate it's brakes. You floor a gas pedal in ANY car, while holding the brake down, and the car WILL NOT MOVE.

From a dead stop, yes, but what happens at speed? For instance, let's say you're goofing off in an ES350, say to your buddies, "hey, let's find out what this baby can do", get it up to around 90, find out it's still at WOT even when you let off and it's still accelerating, and THEN try hitting the brakes? I wouldn't want to try re-creating this, but what would happen if, say, at 100 mph you put one foot on the gas pedal, flooring it, and then another on the brakes?

larsb

I've just read about 10 different news reports about this story.

I don't think it was caused by a stuck accelerator from a floor mat. I mean, why would a smart guy, a cop who is trained for handling emergency situations, just not say, "Honey, hold the wheel I'm going down there to rip the floor mat off the pedal !!"

I think something went badly wrong with a critical system in the car.

Good to know the "hold the power button down three seconds" trick though, since I drive a 2007 Camry Hybrid.

nippononly

Toyota is launching a new hybrid in Japan, called the Sai. Although it uses the HS250's powertrain, it is not a Lexus. The HS250 is also sold there.

The Toyota brand is getting another hybrid sedan in the Japanese market, a sister model to the Lexus HS 250h that will sport a more powerful engine than the Prius hatchback.

The car, to be named the Toyota Sai, will go on sale in Japan on Oct. 20, Toyota Motor Corp. said today. The Sai will be the second model marketed as a hybrid-only offering under the Toyota badge, after the Prius.

Toyota did not say whether the Sai will go on sale in the United States. Spokespeople in Tokyo declined to give additional details on the model.

http://www.autoweek.com/article/20090930/CARNEWS/909309991

Seems to go against Toyota's stated plans to turn the Prius name into a whole hybrid brand...

lemko

No car can out-accelerate it's brakes. You floor a gas pedal in ANY car, while holding the brake down, and the car WILL NOT MOVE.

Isn't this how they do burnout contests?

larsb

Yep. And the car/truck sits right there in place. Tires spin, but car sits in place.

(confused)