Probably nothig wrong with the transmission. i've noticed with the new transmissions having so many gears, you get more "hunting" at city speeds esp. if you have any small hills or inclines. I've noticed this is all makes of vehicles.
could sue the driver for having a "negligent" driver error while transporting them.
By the way, I did know about the "hold the power button for a few seconds hard power shut down for computers."
If going into neutral and turning off the ignition doesn't cut power going to the wheels, that indeed would be a nightmare scenario. First, I'd try will force to get it into Reverse and thereby kill the tranny/engine (this is known to stop the car from running as a built-in safety system (I did this on a friend's Geo Prism once with an automatic going about 45 in the forward direction and the engine killed itself when shifted to R but the tranny was fine/saved. I was able to restart once I came to a stop and everything was fine (thank goodness) If all else fails I'd opt to rearend a big rig/semi-truck, tractor trailer, or big SUV/minivan before my speed got completely crazy.... I figure you rearend a big truck going 70 while your going 100 and it'll be OK and their brakes should be able to brake both of you to a stop since you are lighter than they are hopefully.
This brings up a good question: if your airbags go off, does the acceleration get cut off as a safety feature for driver's who aren't paying attention (which is usually how airbags are set off). I've never had airbags go off on me, so I have no experience here.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
The trick on those struts is to pump the hatch up and down a few times to heat the oil. It won't work in severe weather well below freezing but will work in cool weather and just around freezing.
When my Dad had his 1972 Ford LTD, he got a decal from Ford to place on the dashboard warning about the car's tendency to slip out of "Park" and to engage the emergency brake.
Airbags going off will not stop the car from accelerating in most cars. Fords do have the fuel pump shutoff for even relatively minor impacts (even if the airbags don't fire).
But generally speaking, if you're in a crash severe enough to set off the airbags, the car won't be able to move under its own power anymore.
As for ramming a truck at a speed differential of 30 mph, I wouldn't recommend it. If all else failed, I'd try scraping against the guardrail or Jersey barrier. If there were a muddy field right beside the road with no dropoff, I'd try that.
I've noticed the semi-trucks in CA have big steel bars that go down and then attach to a big square steel bumper. It's basically a hollow tube square or rectangle made out of steel. I think it's low enough that you woudn't decapitate the top of your car.
Aren't the offset crashes you see videos of done at 45 MPH? Seems to me a 30 MPH NON Offset crash wouldn't be too serious in a modern day car. I mean... it would be serious, but not in a way where your likely to end up significantly injured.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
I've noticed the semi-trucks in CA have big steel bars that go down and then attach to a big square steel bumper. It's basically a hollow tube square or rectangle made out of steel. I think it's low enough that you woudn't decapitate the top of your car.
I don't know if this is the case anymore, but back in the old days, there were what was called "East Coast" trailers and "West Coast" trailers. The West Coast trailers had the wheels almost at the rear of the trailer, so if you rear-ended one, you couldn't go very far under. The East Coast trailers had the wheels further forward, to allow for tighter turns. However, if you rear-ended an East Coast trailer, you'd go under it. I guess the most famous example of this is Jayne Mansfield, who was riding in a 1966 Electra that went under the back of a Semi in Mississippi that had slowed down because of mosquito fogging ahead. The roof of that car was sheared back almost to the C-pillar, while the front was severely caved in, and the car was even bent a bit above the rear axle, so I'd imagine it was traveling at a pretty high speed.
Here's a pic of one of those protective bumpers, commonly called the "Mansfield Bumper" doing its job...
TOYOTA CITY, Japan -- Toyota Motor Corp. senior executives say the automaker is moving aggressively to improve quality after a recent rash of problems saddled the company with lawsuits, its largest-ever U.S. recall and allegations of deadly defects.
Toyota faces a series of cases involving rollovers, faulty steering rods and unintended acceleration. The latest blow came last month, when the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said it would investigate complaints of rusted-out frames on Tundra pickups. That case involves an estimated 218,000 vehicles.
Separately, Toyota plans to recall 3.8 million vehicles for issues related to floor mats, accelerator pedals and unintended acceleration.
"We have to be more aggressive in terms of looking into the quality aspects of our operations," Yukitoshi Funo, an executive vice president, told Automotive News at the carmaker's headquarters. The former head of North American operations now oversees emerging markets.
Atsushi Niimi, executive vice president for North America and global manufacturing, said in a separate interview that Toyota is trying to improve the quality of both manufacturing and design. In part, that means re-engineering vehicles to withstand aging problems such as corrosion as customers hold on to cars longer.
Engineers also are trying to build more backup safety into designs. They are rethinking technology so that when breakdowns happen, dire consequences are less likely.
One item under review is the electronic start-stop button used in some Toyota and Lexus models in place of a key-operated ignition. The push-button ignition was cited in a recent NHTSA memo about an Aug. 28 accident involving a runaway Lexus ES 350 in San Diego that killed four people.
The memo noted that the button needs to be depressed for three seconds to turn off the engine, and that this instruction was not indicated on the car's instrument panel. A key-type ignition would have been able to stop the engine more quickly. Toyota is still trying to determine the cause of that accident.
Said Niimi: "We will also look into possibilities of incorporating designs that have more fail-safe functions and are more robust to try and prevent these kinds of tragic accidents in the future."
Takeshi Uchiyamada, executive vice president in charge of r&d, said during the Tokyo Motor Show that he believes some of Toyota's quality problems stem from the company's too-rapid expansion over the last decade.
"For many years, Toyota was trusted as a company for its quality," Uchiyamada said. "We must really work not to impair that trust."
I believe it already may be impaired....it certainly is with me, and I am a 25 year fan. As such, I am really tired of the constant apologies followed by new and bigger screw-ups, even as the product gets dull and uninteresting. If they continue to stumble for any more years, we will look back at the '00s as the decade Toyota lost its way and its rep.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Toyota is still trying to determine the cause of that accident.
Really? It's been covered pretty well by the handful of news outlets that have picked it up, so I'll give them the Cliff's Notes. Primary cause: Dealer installing improper floormat into car, which slipped over the accelerator pedal, causing the car to accelerate to over 100 MPH before crashing. Secondary causes: Start/stop ignition key, poor accelerator pedal design, overheating of brake system, no failsafe in the event of simultaneous accelerator and brake input.
...and that this instruction was not indicated on the car's instrument panel.
There you have it, folks. The "fix" for this problem will be to place an ugly-assed sticker on the dashboard, in addition to all the other ugly warning stickers cars now have (airbag warnings on the visors and "press brake to shift from park" on some transmissions).
How about parts supply? It is going on a week since they ordered a new Denso NAV unit for my 2007 Sequoia. I stopped by the service center and the fellow told me they had to order it from the factory in New Delhi. Meanwhile my NAV door is stuck open and nothing but talk radio on AM works. Hopefully the new one is better than the old one. Maybe it will come with a more recent Map DVD. The one I have is 2004 sold in a 2007 model Sequoia. I think it is all part of the deterioration of Toyota in their mad attempt to beat GM in the numbers game.
"Toyota Motor Corp. said Monday its vehicles are not at risk of accelerating out of control unless the driver's side floor mat is improperly installed or is not meant for that vehicle.
It said the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has reviewed allegations of unintended acceleration in Toyota vehicles six times, clearing the automaker each time."
"...other than the risk from an unsecured or incompatible driver's floor mat..."
Well, I'm glad to hear that Toyota has unilaterally declared that their keyless ignition, pedal design, and overheating brakes that were cited in the NHTSA investigation are now perfectly safe. I would have no reservations whatsoever about buying one of the affected cars and driving around with loved ones and prized small mammals.
I think it's time for NHTSA or the media outlets to show Toyota who's really in the driver's seat.
I think the NHTSA was closed when this press release came out from Toyota. It'll be curious to see if they put their own press release out tomorrow.
Bloomberg says they put something in the Federal Register today about not investigating another case (cases?) of unintended acceleration in Lexus cars.
If you have enough money you can shuffle most anything under the rug. The NHTSA rules for C4C helped propel Toyota sales. Why not protect them from being sued for their poorly designed cars?
If you have enough money you can shuffle most anything under the rug. The NHTSA rules for C4C helped propel Toyota sales. Why not protect them from being sued for their poorly designed cars?
Kind of a stretch, don't you think?
I would expect that the most logical answer is that there was simply nothing there to shuffle under the rug.
You apparently misunderstand the NHTSA report on the accident, with pictures.
The keyless ignition is a concern if the driver is not aware of how it's supposed to be used and/or disabled. But consider that this is one single instance, albeit a very prominent one, of a user not understanding the use of the system. Since there are over a million of these on the roads right now just from Toyota ( with Buick and others adding more daily ) blaming the system for what is literally a 1 in a million occurance is over-reacting. It's blaming the clutch for the error of the driver who's never driven a manual transmission.
The pedal design has nothing to do with the issue unless one or mats are stacked on top of one another. If one uses the OEM carpetted mats and secures them properly then the pedal can in no way come in contact with the mat. Even if the carpetted mat was laid on top of the pedal artificially it still doesn't have enough weight to hold the pedal down. This is a non-issue except for speculators.
The overheating brakes are an issue that comes from trying to slow the vehicle at speeds of 100-120 miles an hour...slow the vehicle, not stop it. If the brakes are applied to try to slow the vehicle down at these speeds at WOT they will overheat and the vacuum boost from the engine will be dissapated. But this is true on any vehicle. No one should try it unless they have a test track to try it on but if one could...hold the pedal all the way to the floor with one foot then try to slow down ( not stop ) with the other foot on the brake... then this is apparently what the NHTSA found in its report. The brakes will overheat and lose stopping power. But this has to be done at WOT at 100+ mph and not jamming the brakes to the floor at first.
But the NHTSA says that the final determination won't be known until the 'black box' data is studied. It was still intact and in the possession of the local sheriff's office in SD county.
Your hatred of Toyota is showing again. The NHTSA report from 2007 as well as this one and all the other instances clearly indicate the All Weather Mats to be the problem. Not only that but improperly installed All Weather Mats. Not only that but All Weather Mats improperly installed by a Lexus dealer using the wrong mats from a completely different vehicle. Not only that but after the 2007 recall on the same subject all Toyota and Lexus stores as well as all clients were given notification not to do exactly what that dealer did.
That Lexus dealer in San Diego couldn't have screwed up more if he wanted to....unless he didn't tell the driver how to operate the ignition system and how to stop the vehicle in an emergency.
If the brakes are applied to try to slow the vehicle down at these speeds at WOT they will overheat and the vacuum boost from the engine will be dissapated. But this is true on any vehicle.
It is NOT true of any vehicle. The Germans have an over ride if you press on the brakes at high speed it tells the engine to ignore the WOT. Making it fail safe. VW/Audi have used this in their drive by wire cars since 2001. Toyota needs to get their drive by wire into the 21st century. BMW and MB have similar systems. 5 fatal accidents with ToyLex runaways is too many.
Not hatred, just disappointment. I have bought 3 new Toyota vehicles over a 43 year span. They all were less than I would have expected from a company people worship as the greatest. After 2 years telling the dealer my NAV audio system is faulty it locked up with a CD and they have to get a replacement from New Delhi, India. How is that for stocking parts?
That Lexus dealer in San Diego couldn't have screwed up more if he wanted to.
No love lost there. That is the dealer that overcharged my wife for service for 15 years. $900 oil change and inspections. We have every record in a file. We would have dumped the car 5 years ago if I had not found a very good Lexus independent mechanic. 20 years old and still runs good.
The dealer has been very quiet during this whole incident. So was it the yard kid or the parts man that will get nailed? Rubber floor mats in San Diego is crazy to start with.
The pedal design is defective from an engineering standpoint if something which rolls under or is wedged under the pedal can engage the accelerator. Apparently this is true of the pivot design Toyota uses. In which case, it's not simply a problem with floormats, but with any object which might slide, slip, or roll around on the floor in the vehicle.
Yes, but what is more basic about safe driving than not allowing things to move around the floor in the driver's footwell?
How far are we asking automakers to go to compensate for the ignorance of American drivers? Because it's already further than they are asked to go in other countries/continents. And if they slap a sticker on the dash of every button-start Toyota and Lexus model telling people the emergency stop procedure, they will have gone further than I think common sense dictates.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Not really. That is how our government operates. Toyota I am sure has a big budget for lobbying Congress. All it takes is the right amount to the right legislator and voila' no more investigation by a government agency. They have dropped their investigations on the same problem in the past. Runaway acceleration just keeps popping up with Toyota. Seems they would fix the problems. They know they have them.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration last Wednesday denied a petition by a Tacoma owner who said his truck suffered two instances of sudden acceleration in January and noted 32 similar complaints to NHTSA. Toyota Motor Corp. told the agency earlier this year that 431 customers had complained of such events, including 51 crashes and 12 injuries.
But Toyota also had argued that many of the complaints were "inspired by publicity," and no flaws had been found in the truck. NHTSA's investigation covered 775,000 Tacomas built between the 2004 and 2008 model year.
Ah, the old conspiracy theory rears its ugly head. "Autospies.com," give me a break!
We went through this same thing with the Audi 5000 in the late 80s. Once CBS broadcast their infamous 60 Minutes story, everyone with an Audi was alleging the same problem.
Just because someone says its so (like that Tacoma owner) doesn't make it so. You have to investigate each incident in detail. I read NHTSA's report on the ES/Camry cases, and in my opinion, this was investigated thoroughly and seriously.
One of the posts in response to the article linked in "Makes Me Wonder" said this:
Sudden Unintended Acceleration! OH What A Feeling! I Didn't Ask For It But I Got It! Just sold my 2007 Tacoma 4cyl automatic at auction for a $3000. loss after hearing NHTSA closed its investigation - so this truck won't kill me next time it happens unless the next owner impacts me in an uncontrolled acceleration. These full-throttle unintended accelerations happened to me five times since I bought the truck 17 months ago. None of the occurrences were related to floor mats or accidentally stepping on the gas instead of the brake. My experience was that it always happened while the air conditioner was running AND as I released the gas pedal just after accelerating, and not as the brake pedal was pressed as many others have reported. My conclusion was that the air condioner compressor solenoid was causing an electrical surge in the gas pedal electronic throttle control circuit as the air conditioner cycled back on after being switched off for the acceleration. I understand that the Tacoma air conditioner drops out during accelerations, as most auto air conditioners do, to permit more engine power to be applied to the wheels. Not surprised then that no engine codes were ever generated. Toyota ignored my complaint of this serious fatal manufacturer defect. Toyota treated me as if I had reported seeing a UFO and as a result has lost my loyalty forever! Toyota Motors CEO should do the honorable thing regarding this ongoing threat to life and property and immediately impale himself on a sword. What shame this forever places on Toyota. Juan"
Sounds well thought through to me. I wonder why Toyo treated him with disdain? Seems to be a pattern of "dumb customer caused sludge, poor shifting, and runaway motors." While I thoroughly understand some customers caused their own sludge with poor no service of their cars and some shift lag is just a result of the conditions, I still have to think how this runaway acceleration would have been handled if the cars involved weren't Camrys and clones but were to have been GMs or Fords. I can hear the drumbeat of daily mentions in the media.
We're only seeing one side of the story here. EVERY major automaker will have complaints lodged against it -- just check the NHTSA files. And you'll see the same pattern of the complainer saying the manufacturer brushed he or she off.
Geez, you could say the same about dumb GM customers using Dex-Cool, causing their plastic intake manifolds to leak. How about those dumb Ford customers not turning off their engines when exiting the car, which allowed the transmissions to self-shift from Park to Reverse?
Toyota claims 431 complaints and 51 crashes attributed to runaway acceleration. I don't call that insignificant. Do you really think the NHTSA investigated each of the 431 complaints or even the 51 crashes? The only reason they bothered with the ES350 runaway crash is all the publicity surrounding it. A veteran CHP officer and his family killed by a defective Lexus. The brakes did not stop the car. That is the bottom line the ToyLex fans would like to shuffle under the rug.
>In reality, he was killed by ignorance of how to shut the car off. Or to put in into neutral. Terrible tragedy, just terrible. But the driver is partly at fault.
Blame the driver for sludge. Possible. Blame the driver for shift lag in transmission software. Possible pattern expecting rapid acceleration after slowdown and downshift demand.
But blame the driver for not putting the car in neutral? Blame the driver for not shutting the car off?
The car should have had an intuitive shutdown procedure most likely a key or keylike switch that initiated shutdown without playing PC games.
Incidentally, the idea that some pose that PC like shutdown of holding the Start button for 5 seconds may lead to software maldesign that some are trying to shut down talk about. This morning my HP laptop didn't show a screen on startup and wouldn't react to any inputs such as cmd-alt-del. The hard drive just didn't access.
Also I couldn't shut down by holding the Start button for 5 seconds like usual. I looked on the back to see if it said "Toyota" anywhere... since it wouldn't shut down.
His death has put a lot of people in a better situation.
Now, if anyone else who has followed this story at all is ever in that same, unfortunate situation ( and if you are blaming Toyota design, there are hundreds of thousands of these cars on the road with potentially this problem ) they might survive it, or at least stop the car before it ends in a fatal crash.
Myself, that would have never happened to me. I know that any time a car would have tried to "accelerate wildly" that putting the car into neutral is the first option.
It's automatic in my mind. A no-brainer.
Very sad that the CHP did not do this. But the case might save other lives, so although completely unfortunate for the family, it might save future lives, if there is indeed an "uncontrolled acceleration" problem which has yet to be diagnosed.
The car should have had an intuitive shutdown procedure most likely a key or keylike switch that initiated shutdown without playing PC games.
Well, what do you do when the proverbial horse has left the barn? I think all manufacturers use pushbutton starts in at least their highline models. I also believe all use a single button, except ironically for Audi, which has separate stop and start buttons.
I like the feature in my son's Prius; no fumbling with keys.
I don't know... seems that Toyota has always had some issues as have all manufacturers... but is this now a crack in reliability that is taking more scrutinity given that there are others (not just Honda) creeping up in the reliability department?
Well, if there are other issues, like a computer failure, someone on here said the "drive by wire" technology MIGHT prevent the car from being successfully put into neutral.
Don't know how true or untrue that assertion might be.
But if true, that is a truly scary scenario.
Option "B" would be to hold down the power button for three seconds to turn the car off, then deal with the aftermath of that decision after the car is actually slowing down.
A given in the logic for some here defending that mats are the only problem is that they are assuming the driver to be too dumb to try to get the car into neutral, reverse, park, something else. They assume the driver is too dumb to get the ignition switch to turn off. The driver is too dumb to hit the brakes hard enough to slow and stop the car; this assumes the brakes as engineered are capable of stopping the Camry they're on, which they should have been but some source pose the idea they can't at 100 mph with a full throttle engine.
If anyone here believes state trooper who likely has been in many high speed chases or driven at high speeds couldn't try for neutral no matter what obstacle the shift pattern was or didn't try to push the start button or didn't try to brake, they are assuming something not in evidence. Unless he was trying to kill himself and had gone beserk? In that case why didn't he just aim the car for the first overpass support or down the first ramp?
Well, it's likely he was not trying to kill his wife, daughter, brother-in-law, and himself, which was the tragic result.
And I have previously posted here that unless he just COMPLETELY panicked, it could NOT have been JUST the floormat which was the problem.
Thinking clearly, he could have easily said, "Honey, take the wheel, I'm crawling down onto the floor and using both hands to dislodge the floormat from the accelerator !!"
Thinking clearly, there is little doubt that a grown man, using both hands, could have accomplished that task fairly easily. I can't imagine that it would have been impossible.
This whole incident is fishier than a grizzly's mouth during salmon season.
This is true as I understand that BMW has it. This is the solution that every vehicle maker including Toyota will probably be implementing soon.
This IMO is the smartest, simplest and most effective solution to these U-IA issues. There's really no need for the GO pedal to be giving the throttle any inputs if the operator is applying the brakes.
Sorry this is wrong. The issue with the design of the pedal is not if something is loose and rolling around inside it's that if too many things are stacked too high the pedal is fixed to the armature. If too many things - like several layers of floor mats - are stacked in front of the pedal then the pedal gets stuck then the whole armature is stuck too. The pressure can't be released unless the floor mat is pulled away.
Over at PriusChat owners are discussing this very same subject obviously because the Power ON/OFF button was first popularized with the Gen 2 Prius in Oct 2003. Every Gen 2 and Gen 3 Prius has it. Every top of the line Toyota has is as well now. That's atleast a million or more such vehicles.
The owners of the Gen 2 and Gen 3 Prius' are checking what happens right now as a result of the tragedy. It appears that since the hybrids including the TCH and HH are all electronic the simplest way to disengage the wheels from the power input is to put the vehicle into PARK. This doesn't damage anything because everything is electronic. Actually the vehicles go into NEUTRAL.
Hitting the PARK button or shifting into PARK is the solution for the hybrids.
For the non-hybrids with the ON/OFF button, shifting to NEUTRAL seems to be the most effective solution ( still to be verified ). UNtil the black box is investigated in the SD tragedy it's not known whether the driver tried to do this or not.
I find it hard to believe the black box from the accident hasn't been analyzed already.
I wonder if the sheriff's office is being very careful to maintain control of the box and the testing and keep the box in their hands rather than in Toyota's. That might explain why no information is coming out. If Toyota had it and the evidence were exculpatory or could be spun thusly, we would have heard it by now.
Comments
By the way, I did know about the "hold the power button for a few seconds hard power shut down for computers."
If going into neutral and turning off the ignition doesn't cut power going to the wheels, that indeed would be a nightmare scenario. First, I'd try will force to get it into Reverse and thereby kill the tranny/engine (this is known to stop the car from running as a built-in safety system (I did this on a friend's Geo Prism once with an automatic going about 45 in the forward direction and the engine killed itself when shifted to R but the tranny was fine/saved. I was able to restart once I came to a stop and everything was fine (thank goodness) If all else fails I'd opt to rearend a big rig/semi-truck, tractor trailer, or big SUV/minivan before my speed got completely crazy.... I figure you rearend a big truck going 70 while your going 100 and it'll be OK and their brakes should be able to brake both of you to a stop since you are lighter than they are hopefully.
This brings up a good question: if your airbags go off, does the acceleration get cut off as a safety feature for driver's who aren't paying attention (which is usually how airbags are set off). I've never had airbags go off on me, so I have no experience here.
Isn't there usually an emergency fuel shutoff that would kick on in an accident?
Now you tell me - just 25 years late. :P
I wonder, did he affix the decal? How many people do you think tossed it the trash instead? Ford got off easy on that one.
But generally speaking, if you're in a crash severe enough to set off the airbags, the car won't be able to move under its own power anymore.
As for ramming a truck at a speed differential of 30 mph, I wouldn't recommend it. If all else failed, I'd try scraping against the guardrail or Jersey barrier. If there were a muddy field right beside the road with no dropoff, I'd try that.
Aren't the offset crashes you see videos of done at 45 MPH? Seems to me a 30 MPH NON Offset crash wouldn't be too serious in a modern day car. I mean... it would be serious, but not in a way where your likely to end up significantly injured.
I don't know if this is the case anymore, but back in the old days, there were what was called "East Coast" trailers and "West Coast" trailers. The West Coast trailers had the wheels almost at the rear of the trailer, so if you rear-ended one, you couldn't go very far under. The East Coast trailers had the wheels further forward, to allow for tighter turns. However, if you rear-ended an East Coast trailer, you'd go under it. I guess the most famous example of this is Jayne Mansfield, who was riding in a 1966 Electra that went under the back of a Semi in Mississippi that had slowed down because of mosquito fogging ahead. The roof of that car was sheared back almost to the C-pillar, while the front was severely caved in, and the car was even bent a bit above the rear axle, so I'd imagine it was traveling at a pretty high speed.
Here's a pic of one of those protective bumpers, commonly called the "Mansfield Bumper" doing its job...
Toyota promises to improve quality
November 2, 2009 - 12:01 am ET
TOYOTA CITY, Japan -- Toyota Motor Corp. senior executives say the automaker is moving aggressively to improve quality after a recent rash of problems saddled the company with lawsuits, its largest-ever U.S. recall and allegations of deadly defects.
Toyota faces a series of cases involving rollovers, faulty steering rods and unintended acceleration. The latest blow came last month, when the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said it would investigate complaints of rusted-out frames on Tundra pickups. That case involves an estimated 218,000 vehicles.
Separately, Toyota plans to recall 3.8 million vehicles for issues related to floor mats, accelerator pedals and unintended acceleration.
"We have to be more aggressive in terms of looking into the quality aspects of our operations," Yukitoshi Funo, an executive vice president, told Automotive News at the carmaker's headquarters. The former head of North American operations now oversees emerging markets.
Atsushi Niimi, executive vice president for North America and global manufacturing, said in a separate interview that Toyota is trying to improve the quality of both manufacturing and design. In part, that means re-engineering vehicles to withstand aging problems such as corrosion as customers hold on to cars longer.
Engineers also are trying to build more backup safety into designs. They are rethinking technology so that when breakdowns happen, dire consequences are less likely.
One item under review is the electronic start-stop button used in some Toyota and Lexus models in place of a key-operated ignition. The push-button ignition was cited in a recent NHTSA memo about an Aug. 28 accident involving a runaway Lexus ES 350 in San Diego that killed four people.
The memo noted that the button needs to be depressed for three seconds to turn off the engine, and that this instruction was not indicated on the car's instrument panel. A key-type ignition would have been able to stop the engine more quickly. Toyota is still trying to determine the cause of that accident.
Said Niimi: "We will also look into possibilities of incorporating designs that have more fail-safe functions and are more robust to try and prevent these kinds of tragic accidents in the future."
Takeshi Uchiyamada, executive vice president in charge of r&d, said during the Tokyo Motor Show that he believes some of Toyota's quality problems stem from the company's too-rapid expansion over the last decade.
"For many years, Toyota was trusted as a company for its quality," Uchiyamada said. "We must really work not to impair that trust."
http://www.autonews.com/article/20091102/ANA03/311029972/1316/mobile&template=ar- t4
I believe it already may be impaired....it certainly is with me, and I am a 25 year fan. As such, I am really tired of the constant apologies followed by new and bigger screw-ups, even as the product gets dull and uninteresting. If they continue to stumble for any more years, we will look back at the '00s as the decade Toyota lost its way and its rep.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Really? It's been covered pretty well by the handful of news outlets that have picked it up, so I'll give them the Cliff's Notes. Primary cause: Dealer installing improper floormat into car, which slipped over the accelerator pedal, causing the car to accelerate to over 100 MPH before crashing. Secondary causes: Start/stop ignition key, poor accelerator pedal design, overheating of brake system, no failsafe in the event of simultaneous accelerator and brake input.
...and that this instruction was not indicated on the car's instrument panel.
There you have it, folks. The "fix" for this problem will be to place an ugly-assed sticker on the dashboard, in addition to all the other ugly warning stickers cars now have (airbag warnings on the visors and "press brake to shift from park" on some transmissions).
How about parts supply? It is going on a week since they ordered a new Denso NAV unit for my 2007 Sequoia. I stopped by the service center and the fellow told me they had to order it from the factory in New Delhi. Meanwhile my NAV door is stuck open and nothing but talk radio on AM works. Hopefully the new one is better than the old one. Maybe it will come with a more recent Map DVD. The one I have is 2004 sold in a 2007 model Sequoia. I think it is all part of the deterioration of Toyota in their mad attempt to beat GM in the numbers game.
It said the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has reviewed allegations of unintended acceleration in Toyota vehicles six times, clearing the automaker each time."
Toyota says it’s been cleared in floor mat cases (MSNBC)
Letter to owners is linked in this Straightline story:
Toyota Sends Out Floor Mat Warning Letters, Reassures Customers on YouTube
Well, I'm glad to hear that Toyota has unilaterally declared that their keyless ignition, pedal design, and overheating brakes that were cited in the NHTSA investigation are now perfectly safe. I would have no reservations whatsoever about buying one of the affected cars and driving around with loved ones and prized small mammals.
I think it's time for NHTSA or the media outlets to show Toyota who's really in the driver's seat.
Bloomberg says they put something in the Federal Register today about not investigating another case (cases?) of unintended acceleration in Lexus cars.
Kind of a stretch, don't you think?
I would expect that the most logical answer is that there was simply nothing there to shuffle under the rug.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
The keyless ignition is a concern if the driver is not aware of how it's supposed to be used and/or disabled. But consider that this is one single instance, albeit a very prominent one, of a user not understanding the use of the system. Since there are over a million of these on the roads right now just from Toyota ( with Buick and others adding more daily ) blaming the system for what is literally a 1 in a million occurance is over-reacting. It's blaming the clutch for the error of the driver who's never driven a manual transmission.
The pedal design has nothing to do with the issue unless one or mats are stacked on top of one another. If one uses the OEM carpetted mats and secures them properly then the pedal can in no way come in contact with the mat. Even if the carpetted mat was laid on top of the pedal artificially it still doesn't have enough weight to hold the pedal down. This is a non-issue except for speculators.
The overheating brakes are an issue that comes from trying to slow the vehicle at speeds of 100-120 miles an hour...slow the vehicle, not stop it. If the brakes are applied to try to slow the vehicle down at these speeds at WOT they will overheat and the vacuum boost from the engine will be dissapated. But this is true on any vehicle. No one should try it unless they have a test track to try it on but if one could...hold the pedal all the way to the floor with one foot then try to slow down ( not stop ) with the other foot on the brake... then this is apparently what the NHTSA found in its report. The brakes will overheat and lose stopping power. But this has to be done at WOT at 100+ mph and not jamming the brakes to the floor at first.
But the NHTSA says that the final determination won't be known until the 'black box' data is studied. It was still intact and in the possession of the local sheriff's office in SD county.
That Lexus dealer in San Diego couldn't have screwed up more if he wanted to....unless he didn't tell the driver how to operate the ignition system and how to stop the vehicle in an emergency.
It's very easy to verify ( done it on several vehicles already ) if this U-IA is even possible with the OEM carpetted mats and pedals. It isn't.
It is NOT true of any vehicle. The Germans have an over ride if you press on the brakes at high speed it tells the engine to ignore the WOT. Making it fail safe. VW/Audi have used this in their drive by wire cars since 2001. Toyota needs to get their drive by wire into the 21st century. BMW and MB have similar systems. 5 fatal accidents with ToyLex runaways is too many.
Not hatred, just disappointment. I have bought 3 new Toyota vehicles over a 43 year span. They all were less than I would have expected from a company people worship as the greatest. After 2 years telling the dealer my NAV audio system is faulty it locked up with a CD and they have to get a replacement from New Delhi, India. How is that for stocking parts?
That Lexus dealer in San Diego couldn't have screwed up more if he wanted to.
No love lost there. That is the dealer that overcharged my wife for service for 15 years. $900 oil change and inspections. We have every record in a file. We would have dumped the car 5 years ago if I had not found a very good Lexus independent mechanic. 20 years old and still runs good.
The dealer has been very quiet during this whole incident. So was it the yard kid or the parts man that will get nailed? Rubber floor mats in San Diego is crazy to start with.
How far are we asking automakers to go to compensate for the ignorance of American drivers? Because it's already further than they are asked to go in other countries/continents. And if they slap a sticker on the dash of every button-start Toyota and Lexus model telling people the emergency stop procedure, they will have gone further than I think common sense dictates.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Not really. That is how our government operates. Toyota I am sure has a big budget for lobbying Congress. All it takes is the right amount to the right legislator and voila' no more investigation by a government agency. They have dropped their investigations on the same problem in the past. Runaway acceleration just keeps popping up with Toyota. Seems they would fix the problems. They know they have them.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration last Wednesday denied a petition by a Tacoma owner who said his truck suffered two instances of sudden acceleration in January and noted 32 similar complaints to NHTSA. Toyota Motor Corp. told the agency earlier this year that 431 customers had complained of such events, including 51 crashes and 12 injuries.
But Toyota also had argued that many of the complaints were "inspired by publicity," and no flaws had been found in the truck. NHTSA's investigation covered 775,000 Tacomas built between the 2004 and 2008 model year.
Makes me wonder
Ah, the old conspiracy theory rears its ugly head. "Autospies.com," give me a break!
We went through this same thing with the Audi 5000 in the late 80s. Once CBS broadcast their infamous 60 Minutes story, everyone with an Audi was alleging the same problem.
Just because someone says its so (like that Tacoma owner) doesn't make it so. You have to investigate each incident in detail. I read NHTSA's report on the ES/Camry cases, and in my opinion, this was investigated thoroughly and seriously.
Sudden Unintended Acceleration! OH What A Feeling! I Didn't Ask For It But I Got It! Just sold my 2007 Tacoma 4cyl automatic at auction for a $3000. loss after hearing NHTSA closed its investigation - so this truck won't kill me next time it happens unless the next owner impacts me in an uncontrolled acceleration. These full-throttle unintended accelerations happened to me five times since I bought the truck 17 months ago. None of the occurrences were related to floor mats or accidentally stepping on the gas instead of the brake. My experience was that it always happened while the air conditioner was running AND as I released the gas pedal just after accelerating, and not as the brake pedal was pressed as many others have reported. My conclusion was that the air condioner compressor solenoid was causing an electrical surge in the gas pedal electronic throttle control circuit as the air conditioner cycled back on after being switched off for the acceleration. I understand that the Tacoma air conditioner drops out during accelerations, as most auto air conditioners do, to permit more engine power to be applied to the wheels. Not surprised then that no engine codes were ever generated. Toyota ignored my complaint of this serious fatal manufacturer defect. Toyota treated me as if I had reported seeing a UFO and as a result has lost my loyalty forever! Toyota Motors CEO should do the honorable thing regarding this ongoing threat to life and property and immediately impale himself on a sword. What shame this forever places on Toyota. Juan"
Sounds well thought through to me. I wonder why Toyo treated him with disdain? Seems to be a pattern of "dumb customer caused sludge, poor shifting, and runaway motors." While I thoroughly understand some customers caused their own sludge with
poorno service of their cars and some shift lag is just a result of the conditions, I still have to think how this runaway acceleration would have been handled if the cars involved weren't Camrys and clones but were to have been GMs or Fords. I can hear the drumbeat of daily mentions in the media.2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Geez, you could say the same about dumb GM customers using Dex-Cool, causing their plastic intake manifolds to leak. How about those dumb Ford customers not turning off their engines when exiting the car, which allowed the transmissions to self-shift from Park to Reverse?
Toyota claims 431 complaints and 51 crashes attributed to runaway acceleration. I don't call that insignificant. Do you really think the NHTSA investigated each of the 431 complaints or even the 51 crashes? The only reason they bothered with the ES350 runaway crash is all the publicity surrounding it. A veteran CHP officer and his family killed by a defective Lexus. The brakes did not stop the car. That is the bottom line the ToyLex fans would like to shuffle under the rug.
Or to put in into neutral.
Terrible tragedy, just terrible. But the driver is partly at fault. There is no doubt of that.
If this causes ToyoLex to fix an unknown, underlying problem that saves future lives, then all is well.
But the entirety of the blame is NOT on the car, or it's systems.
Blame the driver for sludge. Possible. Blame the driver for shift lag in transmission software. Possible pattern expecting rapid acceleration after slowdown and downshift demand.
But blame the driver for not putting the car in neutral?
Blame the driver for not shutting the car off?
The car should have had an intuitive shutdown procedure most likely a key or keylike switch that initiated shutdown without playing PC games.
Incidentally, the idea that some pose that PC like shutdown of holding the Start button for 5 seconds may lead to software maldesign that some are trying to shut down talk about. This morning my HP laptop didn't show a screen on startup and wouldn't react to any inputs such as cmd-alt-del. The hard drive just didn't access.
Also I couldn't shut down by holding the Start button for 5 seconds like usual. I looked on the back to see if it said "Toyota" anywhere... since it wouldn't shut down.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Now, if anyone else who has followed this story at all is ever in that same, unfortunate situation ( and if you are blaming Toyota design, there are hundreds of thousands of these cars on the road with potentially this problem ) they might survive it, or at least stop the car before it ends in a fatal crash.
Myself, that would have never happened to me. I know that any time a car would have tried to "accelerate wildly" that putting the car into neutral is the first option.
It's automatic in my mind. A no-brainer.
Very sad that the CHP did not do this. But the case might save other lives, so although completely unfortunate for the family, it might save future lives, if there is indeed an "uncontrolled acceleration" problem which has yet to be diagnosed.
Well, what do you do when the proverbial horse has left the barn? I think all manufacturers use pushbutton starts in at least their highline models. I also believe all use a single button, except ironically for Audi, which has separate stop and start buttons.
I like the feature in my son's Prius; no fumbling with keys.
You say this would be your first option. Are you saying that putting the car into neutral might not work? What would be your "plan B"?
Don't know how true or untrue that assertion might be.
But if true, that is a truly scary scenario.
Option "B" would be to hold down the power button for three seconds to turn the car off, then deal with the aftermath of that decision after the car is actually slowing down.
plan B is stick it in neutral.
Actually, if more people drove stick shifts (shameless plug here), just pushing in the clutch will do the trick.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
If anyone here believes state trooper who likely has been in many high speed chases or driven at high speeds couldn't try for neutral no matter what obstacle the shift pattern was or didn't try to push the start button or didn't try to brake, they are assuming something not in evidence. Unless he was trying to kill himself and had gone beserk? In that case why didn't he just aim the car for the first overpass support or down the first ramp?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
And I have previously posted here that unless he just COMPLETELY panicked, it could NOT have been JUST the floormat which was the problem.
Thinking clearly, he could have easily said, "Honey, take the wheel, I'm crawling down onto the floor and using both hands to dislodge the floormat from the accelerator !!"
Thinking clearly, there is little doubt that a grown man, using both hands, could have accomplished that task fairly easily. I can't imagine that it would have been impossible.
This whole incident is fishier than a grizzly's mouth during salmon season.
This IMO is the smartest, simplest and most effective solution to these U-IA issues. There's really no need for the GO pedal to be giving the throttle any inputs if the operator is applying the brakes.
The owners of the Gen 2 and Gen 3 Prius' are checking what happens right now as a result of the tragedy. It appears that since the hybrids including the TCH and HH are all electronic the simplest way to disengage the wheels from the power input is to put the vehicle into PARK. This doesn't damage anything because everything is electronic. Actually the vehicles go into NEUTRAL.
Hitting the PARK button or shifting into PARK is the solution for the hybrids.
For the non-hybrids with the ON/OFF button, shifting to NEUTRAL seems to be the most effective solution ( still to be verified ). UNtil the black box is investigated in the SD tragedy it's not known whether the driver tried to do this or not.
Hit the brake and the clutch and shift into Neutral.
I wonder if the sheriff's office is being very careful to maintain control of the box and the testing and keep the box in their hands rather than in Toyota's. That might explain why no information is coming out. If Toyota had it and the evidence were exculpatory or could be spun thusly, we would have heard it by now.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,