Toyota on the mend?

stever

Owners of Toyota Cars in Rebellion Over Series of Accidents Caused by Sudden Acceleration (ABC News)

"Refusing to accept the explanation of Toyota and the federal government, hundreds of Toyota owners are in rebellion after a series of accidents caused by what they call "runaway cars."

TheU.S. Department of Transportation released a statement Tuesday afternoon saying the matter "is not closed."

corvette

That kind of contradicts Toyota's official statement yesterday to the effect that NHTSA had cleared them of all responsibility other than the floormats.

imidazol97

"Toyota officials refused to talk with ABC News about the incidents, but posted a statement from executive Bob Daly on its website last night that said: "Some news reports suggest there may be other causes of unintended acceleration, speculating about electronic engine control systems, braking performance or electro-magnetic interference among other theories. There is no evidence to support these theories.""

quote from http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/RunawayToyotas/sudden-acceleration-toyota-cars-own- ers-rebel-accidents/story?id=8980479

Toyota doesn't want to admit there may once again be something real in the problems they're experiencing.

Finally a major news network is going to be investgative... on something.

kdhspyder

ABC seems to be utilizing more than a little hyperbole. In what form did this 'rebellion' take place? Did 100 or 200 owners convene in Denver of Seattle or Torrance and stage a protest?

With the variety of locations and vehicles involved it seems somewhat farfetched that no one at any accident site has been able to pinpoint any malfunction other than the AWMs or possibly driver error.

There may be something else beside driver error or malplaced AWMs but if there is it's certainly hidden itself in the bushes very well. 'Rebellion?' Where?

stever

on something

Something like sweeps week or Charlie had this big story in the works but had his thunder stolen by the Toyota press release? :shades:

gagrice

I think Toyota kind of jumped the gun hoping to get this whole mess behind them. NHTSA says it is not done with Toyota on runaway acceleration.

The U.S. Department of Transportation released a statement Tuesday afternoon saying the matter "is not closed."

The full statement read: "Toyota has announced a safety recall involving 3.8 million vehicles in which the accelerator pedal may become stuck at high vehicle speeds due to interference by the driver's side floor mat, which is obviously a very dangerous situation. Toyota has written to vehicle owners stating that it has decided that a safety defect exists in their vehicles and asking owners to remove all floor mats while the company is developing a remedy. We believe consumers should follow Toyota's recommendation to address the most immediate safety risk. However, removal of the mats is simply an interim measure, not a remedy of the underlying defect in the vehicles. NHTSA is discussing with Toyota what the appropriate vehicle remedy or remedies will be. This matter is not closed until Toyota has effectively addressed the vehicle defect by providing a suitable remedy."

imidazol97

One only needs to read the public comments after the article to find several credible comments re unexpected acceleration. They don't all sound like idiots or publicity seekers by the verbage they're using. They are credible. But a universal theme seems to be that they were brushed off--like a chunk of engine sludge, I mean engine gel.

deltheking

Folks trying to bash the # 1 company. Purely picking on #1. Goes with the territory I guess. Well the sales figures of Toyota will show how damaging these incidents are . NHTSA has cleared Toyota I presume. So why all this hullaboo? In the same link there is a video by CR which shows how to stop the car in an emergency. :sick:

4 lives were lost.Yes,very tragic. But negligence and stupidity was a big part here,both by the dealer and the driver. Tending to blame everyone except self is becoming the fashion nowadays.
Doesn`t matter if the vehicle involved was a Toyota,Honda,Ford,Chevy,Dodge-- the same rule applies. It was an unfortunate accident due to negligence,stupidity and panic with loss of clear thinking..Sad,very sad but true.

corvette

The issue with the design of the pedal is not if something is loose and rolling around inside it's that if too many things are stacked too high the pedal is fixed to the armature.

I stand corrected. Some of the news reports made it sound like there was a pivot underneath the pedal which could pull the pedal downward.

I can't help but wonder whether or when the American appetite for a good scandal will overpower the American appetite for Toyota's cars.

stever

Purely picking on #1

So, if you're GM what do you do?

"Hi, this is Onstar. I see you're going 120 mph in a 45 zone. Shall I turn off your engine for you?"

gagrice

Folks trying to bash the # 1 company. Purely picking on #1.

It is all the Toyota owners that were blown off by Toyota over the last 6 years when they claimed their cars unexpectedly accelerated. It was four lives in the most recent runaway wreck. There are at least 5 fatal accidents and 100s of non fatal accidents.

NHTSA has cleared Toyota I presume.

NO, they have not. Read the latest news report that Steve just posted. The Feds expect Toyota to come up with remedies not just rhetoric. At the very least they need to develop an over ride when the brakes are applied with WOT. That is something VW, Audi, BMW and MB have had for close to a decade.

kdhspyder

Do you or I know for a fact that the persons making the comments at the end of the article are real Toyota owners or not? No we don't. You want to believe that they are but until now the only facts known are those gathered by the NHTSA in its various investigations.

Facts are the only aribitor. Everything else is opinion ( yours/mine ) or hearsay ( the commentors ). Without real facts and data nothing can be said definitively.

kdhspyder

Keep it accurate.

In the cases investigated the cause has always been the AWMs or probable driver error. That's all that can be said factually.

Yes the 'Smart Pedal' solution is the likely solution IMO....as it will be for every other vehicle maker here as well. This is good for all of us in the long run.

gagrice

While it may be driver error. No one likes to be told that. So when it is opened up to National scrutiny all those folks that felt blown off by Toyota will surface. You can expect a level of scrutiny to be at least as much as the Ford Firestone fiasco. Remember this is a much stronger consumer climate than existed a couple years ago. This Congress is not as Big Business friendly as the last. This could cost Toyota some serious money to resolve.

stever

I find it hard to believe the black box from the accident hasn't been analyzed already.

Here's a good summary on what the "black box" could reveal:

Engine speed
Whether the brake pedal was applied or not
Vehicle speed
To what extent the accelerator pedal was depressed
Position of the transmission selector lever
Whether the driver and front passenger wore the seat belts or not
Driver's seat position
Front passenger's occupant classification
SRS airbag deployment data

bertha06, "Toyota Sienna Uncontrolled Acceleration" #60, 30 Jun 2009 3:51 pm

There could be more, from the VSC system etc.

And btw, that uncontrolled acceleration discussion started three years ago this month.

gagrice

How did the Sienna escape the recall with all the cases of runaway acceleration they have had? Did Toyota just forget them?

imidazol97

>You want to believe that they are

You want to believe they aren't because Toyota uber alles is the goal. Even if it means people dying. :mad: It's hard to brush off all those people commenting on ABC.com as just liars: it didn't happen, they just made it up, to get to post on an ABC news story. Sure.

I am really anxious to hear what the black box has to say was going on in the way of inputs or at least sensors and reactions.

210delray

I'd say the Sienna must have something different in its design. For that matter, what about my 2004 and 2005 Camrys? They have drive-by-wire also, but the accelerator pedal bottom edge is about an inch higher above the floor than in the 2010 model.

210delray

And nothing would make your day like seeing the mighty Toyota brought down to its knees, you have to admit it.

Charlene Blake, that woman's a real FLAKE! I think every car she'd owned up to her allegedly sludged Toyota was a lemon, according to her. And her previous cars weren't Toyotas; one was a Chrysler minivan as I recall. She has ZERO credibility.

I'm always skeptical of testimony in and of itself. What really happened? No one knows without a dispassionate investigation. That's one reason these "black boxes" will come in handy.

Meanwhile, here's my favorite comment from the web version of ABC's "news" story:

Some of these complaints are exactly like the AUDI runaway vehicles of the 80s. We're seeing the same allegations of demonic cars with minds of their own and drivers claiming total innocence as then. The ultimate finding in the Audi's was 100 percent operator error. Fact: the brakes on modern cars are in all cases STRONGER than the engine. Period. If you are pushing down on the brake, the car will slow regardless of what the engine is doing. Fact: if you slip a car's transmission into neutral, zero power will be going to your wheels. Period.

Prediction: This will be ABC's "Dateline" moment. You probably remember, back in the early 90s when that NBC program used small rockets to help make the Chevy/GMC full-size pickup truck explode in a ball of flames when the truck's side-saddle gas tank was rammed by a Chevy Citation! And of course, CBS was the one who "proved" that the Audi 5000 was dangerous. Three of a kind, I guess!

stever

think every car she'd owned up to her allegedly sludged Toyota was lemon, according to her. And her previous cars weren't Toyotas; one was a Chrysler minivan as I recall. She has ZERO credibility.

Was she posting in the comments at ABC or something? As I recall, she also was unhappy with her Hoover in the early days before she latched onto car problems.

210delray

To my knowledge, she hasn't surfaced on the ABC story or comments, but you have a better memory than me on her going bonkers over vacuum cleaners!

imidazol97

>This will be ABC's "Dateline" moment. You probably remember, back in the early 90s when that NBC program used small rockets to help make the Chevy/GMC full-size pickup truck explode in a ball of flames when the truck's side-saddle gas tank was rammed by a Chevy Citation!

But that was okay because it was a GM pickup that they were trying to show had a potential to catch fire, wasn't it?

> If you are pushing down on the brake, the car will slow regardless of what the engine is doing

That's the part I can't understand about the whole thing. Brakes are usually much stronger than the motor, even on a car with high revolution high output and a transmission with 6 speeds so that it can be in an optimum gear at 100 mph for max acceleration. Even without boost, I would think a stong man could use both legs to brake without the power assist.

>And nothing would make your day like seeing the mighty Toyota brought down to its knees

Wrong. There are a few people, present company excepted, who have had an arrogance about the image and reality of their car company and were especially critical of US companies including GM. They need to be down a few notches. Looks like this and the sludge, which many people know about but don't understand, may add up. The transmission lag in shifting for acceleration in certain, unique conditions doesn't seem to have concern many people who weren't experiencing it. I think a factor here is that many people remember the Audi acceleration problems where the brake and accelerator are too similar in position and height and people hit the accelerator thinking it was the brake. They understand acceleration that's uncontrolled and unexpected.

210delray

But that was okay because it was a GM pickup that they were trying to show had a potential to catch fire, wasn't it?

No, it wasn't okay. "Dateline" faked it and had to publicly apologize for sensationalizing the problem. They only earned back their reputation by covering crash tests by the respected Insurance Institute for Highway Safety.

Of course, now they're back in the gutter again with "Predator" series and the like. The crash tests got too boring as the cars got better.

Even without boost, I would think a strong man could use both legs to brake without the power assist. That's what I think also. Maybe he panicked to the point that he didn't KEEP his feet firmly on the brakes.

I defend Toyota because they've done fine by me with 3 cars (4 if I include the Corolla my wife brought into the marriage). I grew up on GM iron, so I don't really have a bone to pick with them, except I disagreed with the bailout. I remember their glory days (60s) and wish they could get some of that mojo back, but realistically, they'll never be what they once were.

houdini1

This will end up just like the Audi fiasco. A bunch of hysterical people swearing they were hitting the brake when they were hitting the gas. After a while they even believed it themselves. Some people will say or do anything to keep from admitting that they made a mistake.

The "smart" gas pedal makes sense, but that probably won't end the unintended acceleration fairy tale. Those same folks will still insist that the darn thing must have malfunctioned when they drove thru the garage doors, over a cliff, or whatever.

210delray

You're right about the smart gas pedal not solving the problem of stepping on the gas when they really want to brake.

That "over the cliff" into the Pacific story has the hallmarks of this. Now, I'm no spring chicken myself anymore, but when it said that couple had been married for 46 years, that's starting to get up there, and mistakes like that aren't unusual for *some* older people.

corvette

At high engine revs, there won't be a lot of power assist on the brakes. FWIW, I tested my Epsilon-platform GM vehicle this morning at about 30 MPH (don't try this at home, etc.), and it appears it does not have a "smart pedal," but the gas pedal is far enough off the floorboard that it would be difficult for a floormat to bunch up over it.

gagrice

but you have a better memory than me on her going bonkers over vacuum cleaners!

My complaint is with Kirby. I never got the free Fly-in Hunting trip the salesman promised. That was about 1972. What a sucker I was paying $1200 for a stinking vacuum cleaner. No wonder I am such a cynic today.

210delray

LOL! For a few hundred more, you could have bought a VW Beetle or Toyota Corolla back then!

gagrice

I had just bought a new 71 Nissan PU for $2000. Great little truck. Kirby was over rated.

andre1969

But that was okay because it was a GM pickup that they were trying to show had a potential to catch fire, wasn't it?

It better not be okay...I drove to work in one of those today! :surprise: IIRC, the accident that started that particular scandal involved a saddle-tank GM truck getting t-boned at 73 mph. I'm guessing the driver would have been killed even if the truck hadn't caught on fire. And I have a feeling that anything that gets hit at 73 mph in close proximity to its fuel tank has a fairly good chance of leaking fuel.

kdhspyder

While it may be driver error. No one likes to be told that. So when it is opened up to National scrutiny all those folks that felt blown off by Toyota will surface. You can expect a level of scrutiny to be at least as much as the Ford Firestone fiasco. Remember this is a much stronger consumer climate than existed a couple years ago. This Congress is not as Big Business friendly as the last. This could cost Toyota some serious money to resolve.

The highlighted text clealy indicates that this is simply your opinion. Your opinion may prove to be right or it may not prove to be right. Thus far no other facts are known so nothing else can be determined until more are known.

lemko

Yeah, and with a whole bunch of model rocket engines taped to the tank as well!

imidazol97

>Yeah, and with a whole bunch of model rocket engines

The talking heads for the report were Stone Phillips and ?????, who was the lady?

Like much of the news it's the people writing the stories in the background that get their personal politics or opinions out front with the power of the pen. But I never liked Stone Phillips after that.

imidazol97

>Your opinion may prove to be right

Thank you for admitting that those tenets may prove to be right. That's all that's needed. Obviously no one knows that they are WRONG. It's over.

People are allowed to have ideas that aren't proven. They don't have to wait for proof before suggesting hypotheses as such. Especially with the idea that the side opposing that opinion can pose their view _without_ its have been proved correct in advance like the original opinion is being required to proved in advance. .

explorerx4

the NHTSA report posted earlier, pointed to the design of the pedal locking due to the mat sliding underneath.
that in and of itself, is sub par engineering. to expect someone unfamiliar with the car to figure out how to unlock it at elevated speeds in traffic when the pedal has it held in place is pretty unlikely, also.
in my vehicles, i might be able to jam the gas pedal from underneath it with a paver sized brick, but not a floor mat.
it was also speculated earlier that mat interfered with the braking, but the mat shows no evidence of any contact with the brakes pedal.
it's probably like the game mousetrap. the floor mat installation was the trigger in an unlikely sequence of events.
i still would like to know that sequence of events was and how repeatable it is.

explorerx4

did you look at the post of the NHTSA report which included observations about the conditions of the brakes?

kdhspyder

This is what the discussion of the brakes indicated. The report indicated that due to constant pressure on the brake that the power boost from the engine was lost and that the brakes showed marks of overheating.

1)..Imagine yourself in the position of going down a highway suddenly realizing that you were going very fast. You'd normally let your foot off the pedal and slow down. But what if not only did you not slow down you actually were still gaining speed ( gaspedal trapped in the full forward position by the mat ), then you'd likely put some pressure on the brake pedal to try to slow down. But how much pressure? This is the data that the black box has.

2)..If you put some pressure on the pedal expecting to slow down just as you've done thousands of times previously you'd be very shocked because not only were you not slowing but the trapped pedal was making you go faster ( 90 - 100 mph now? ).

3)..So you put more pressure on the pedal, a lot of pressure. This doesn't work either as the vehicle reaches 100 mph in full WOT.

4)..So now you try jamming the brake pedal to the floor. But the prior efforts at braking and braking strongly have dissapated the power boost from the engine. Now you only have pure mechanical and physical strength...and the vehicle is reaching 120 mph - with no power assist.

The Brake Assist feature in all Toyota and Lexus vehicles ( and all other vehicles as well ) works depending on how the driver hits the pedal. In a normal stopping/slowing situation when you press the brake pedal the computer determines that this is a normal stop and puts normal pressure on the brakes. In a panic situation by jamming the foot to the pedal the computer puts the full force of the brakes in play right away. It's the way you hit the pedal.

I'm guessing from what I read in the NHTSA report that at the beginning of this tragedy that the driver thought that putting normal pressure would stop the vehicle. Brake Assist was never activated until the engine power boost was dissapated. That's what caused the overheating and loss of braking power.

But the black box will have much more info.

kdhspyder

the NHTSA report posted earlier, pointed to the design of the pedal locking due to the mat sliding underneath. that in and of itself, is sub par engineering.

This isn't accurate. The mat doesn't slide underneath. It does the opposite. the unsecured mat slides forward and when the pedal is pressed forward the mat edge slides on top of the lower edge of the pedal trapping the pedal all the way forward.


to expect someone unfamiliar with the car to figure out how to unlock it at elevated speeds in traffic when the pedal has it held in place is pretty unlikely, also.
in my vehicles, i might be able to jam the gas pedal from underneath it with a paver sized brick, but not a floor mat.
it was also speculated earlier that mat interfered with the braking, but the mat shows no evidence of any contact with the brakes pedal.
it's probably like the game mousetrap. the floor mat installation was the trigger in an unlikely sequence of events.
i still would like to know that sequence of events was and how repeatable it is.

What you're missing here is that the mat that was in the vehicle was not supposed to be there at all. It was an All Weather mat from a different vehicle and it was stacked on top of the OEM carpetted mat and it was not secured in place to avoid it from sliding forward and the dealers have been specifically warned by Toyota and the NHTSA not to stack mats in this manner. It was a cluster from jump street.

\) [.... All Weather Mat blocking the Gas Pedal...]
.......{....carpetted OEM mat........................................}

If the very thick All Weather mats are not in the vehicle to trap the gas pedal then this tragedy doesn't occur. None of the OEM carpetted mats are thick enough to come anywhere near the gas pedal. In addition none are heavy enough to hold the gas pedal all the way in the forward position. In addition they are secured to the floor by two hooks so that they are nowhere near the gas pedal. How do I know? I've tried to cause such a situation on a wide variety of vehicles using only the OEM carpetted mats.

mcdawgg

Completely agree. I think I am going to get a good lawyer and sue Ford and Mazda for the cars I had about 15 years ago that actually had mats that did interfere with the accelerator because they did not have hooks and they slid around like crazy. Fortunately, I was able to reach down and pull the mats back both times it happened to me. I wouldn't be surprised if they did cause accidents. I then bought aftermarket floor mat clips and checked them frequently. But they caused me to suffer mental anguish, etc. etc. so I will be contacting my lawyer soon, and ABC, and....

210delray

Very well stated about the brake situation, thanks! I don't have Brake Assist in my prior-generation Camrys, just ABS. I believe almost everyone uses it now in conjunction with ABS. I have never seen any complaints about "unintended braking," so it must work fine on the road. Wasn't Mercedes the first with this?

explorerx4

my take on it is 'brake assist' did not get the right signal. the car was not slowing, so brake assist did not come into play. you are assuming it takes effect only by brake pedal pressure. CR did not mention anything out 'brake assist' in their lower level simulation.
you really have no clue how brake assist works, you just think you do.
i have no clue how it actually works either, but i am now willing say it can't be tricked.
the black box is the best hope to determine what was going on

kdhspyder

I know exactly how Brake Assist works. It's entirely dependent on the manner in which you strike the pedal.

Normal pressure on the pedal in normal situations equals a normal pressure on the brakes.
Slamming pressure on the pedal activates the BA function via the ABS system to give you full force right away.
If a driver doesn't slam the pedal right away then he/she doesn't get the full stopping force of the BA function.

And yes BA probably did not get the right signal in this case as I noted because the driver probably ( my own guess ) thought initially that nothing was really wrong and thus didn't slam on the brakes initially. But this is all speculation and serves no purpose without specific data.

stever

"Toyota Motor Corp. released misleading information about an investigation into problems with stuck gas pedals that led to a massive Toyota recall, the U.S. government said Wednesday, stressing the issue is still under review by federal safety regulators.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said it was still investigating the case and meeting with Toyota to hear about the company's plan to redesign the vehicles and fix "this very dangerous problem."

U.S. criticizes Toyota statement on floor mats (MSNBC)

imidazol97

>Toyota Motor Corp. released misleading information about an investigation into problems with stuck gas pedals that led to a massive Toyota recall, the U.S. government said Wednesday,

No. Say it's not true. Toyota putting their own spin on something to save their public image? Naaah. Never could happen.

kdhspyder

Yes a stupid move by the one(s) who issued the previous statement. Let the facts determine the outcome. Nothing else matters.

explorerx4

you only think you know how Brake Assist works unless you tested it under similar circumstances as the vehicle that supposedly couldn't stop.
don't forget CR had almost no braking from 80 mph will maintaining throttle after doing the same test at 60 mph.
i am not willing to make assumptions about what should work based on what happens in normal situations.
systems can have unexpected reactions under stress.

andres3

Funny thing about Kirby. I had a few guys come to my house the other day to sell a brand new Kirby Vacuum Cleaner SYSTEM! LOL.

Starting price was about $2,300 with all the attachments, $2,000 for just the base unit. After a while of saying the price was way too high, they came down to like $1,650. After a lot of questions; humoring them, I said no, and they started to packup and get ready to leave.

JUST right before leaving, he said, how about you buy it at my cost, $1,327.... I thought about that price for a minute, because that's starting to enter the reasonable range (though really high still (but all attachments included). I said no, after they left, I looked in CR 2009 guide. Kirby is ranked #4 (that's good!) but the price listed is $1,350. So his supposed "cost" was the actual retail price/value! LOL. I'm glad I said no.

iluvmysephia1

is it just me or is that a ridiculously high price for a vacuum cleaner? $1,350?

I could buy me some really nice duplicate Lancer floor mats for that price. :P

You know, just to have 'em around!

andres3

I've never had any unintended acceleration in ANY vehicle by any manufacturer.

Unintended acceleration sounds like driver/operator error to me all the way.

And equipment malfunction in and of itself is no reason to cause an accident or injury. As many have said, the CHP is known by some in the loop to be incompetent in every way imaginable or listable, so it's no surprise to me that it was driver error in the Lexus in question.

There are many ways to slow down a vehicle, but it seems error, panick and ignorance got the best of some people out there.

andres3

It is a very high price, but it is a very nice vacuum and has excellent reliability rankings. Kirby is like the Lexus of Vacuum cleaners.

However, the salesmen cry when you call it just a vacuum, they want you to know it's a SYSTEM, not just a vacuum cleaner.

It would have come with all sorts of attachments and gizmos to clean anything you can think of, including a shampooer mechanism.

They should probably lower the price to $999.99. I think they'd sell a lot more that way. But I guess there's enough suckers out there that'll pay $2,000+ that it's more profitable to gouge.