Toyota on the mend?

kdhspyder

These are 'reports'. They might be accurate or they might not be. Do you have any facts; actual evidence verified by the NHTSA or some other neutral agency? These could have been written by you.

When you can bring actual evidence from an impartial agency or company showing data confirming such instances then I'll believe them. Data and facts are the only arbiters. To balance out these 'reports' let me make the following 25,000 'reports'...seriously.

In the 10 yrs working here we've handled at least 25,000 new vehicles. Neither I nor anyone at this location has ever run into an unintended acceleration issue. Not only that but neither has our Chevy store, our Honda store nor our Hyundai store ever run into any such issue.

Based on this experience I'm calling BS on the other reports. Show me I'm wrong with factual evidence.

kdhspyder

He drove it for the afternoon and of course it wouldn't act up.

This is a surprise? I believe that the poster was complaining about the throttle / gearing logic not unintended acceleration.

explorerx4

so you are expanding from complaining about chryslers?

kdhspyder

I can't believe that you'd actually post this trash. It's an ambulance-chaser's website like Consumer Affairs. Posting this is intellectually bankrupt. And you took the time to quote it.

The 'data' that they list is a paraphrasing of the NHTSA information but it falsely states the problem as sudden acceleration. The ambulance chasers can put anything they want on their website.....and you took it hook, line and sinker.

The problem is 'unintended acceleration' .... as probably caused by mats.

gagrice

Here is the facts from Toyota and the NHTSA. Toyota tried pulling a fast one and got caught.

Toyota said in a statement on Monday that NHTSA had confirmed "that no defect exists in vehicles in which the driver's floor mat is compatible with the vehicle and properly secured."

But NHTSA said that was inaccurate and the government was investigating possible causes of the acceleration problem. Removing the floor mats was "simply an interim measure" and "does not correct the underlying defect in the vehicles involving the potential for entrapment of the accelerator by floor mats, which is related to accelerator and floor pan design."

"The matter is not closed until Toyota has effectively addressed the defect by providing a suitable vehicle based solution," NHTSA said in the statement, which the department said was issued to correct "inaccurate and misleading information" from the automaker.

Toyota spokesman John Hanson said "it was never our intention to mislead or provide inaccurate information. Toyota agrees with NHTSA's position that the removal of the floor mats is an interim measure and that further action is required. We continue to discuss an appropriate vehicle remedy or remedies."

http://www.bellinghamherald.com/bizwire/story/1144264.html

Toyota knows they have a bigger problem than mere floor mats. So why would anyone trust a car salesman more than an attorney? I have heard them both denigrated equally. Though I would cut a car salesman a bit more slack.

gagrice

Show me I'm wrong with factual evidence.

I am not sure you would believe a fact if you were confronted with it face to face. How about "Dead Cops Don't Lie". We have for a fact 5 fatal accidents in Toyota built vehicles, all attributed to runaway acceleration. Toyota claims it is the floor mats which it very well may be. However Toyota designed both the accelerator and the floor mats that are involved. So who is to blame?

As far as no runaways of the 25,000 vehicles your agency has sold. Just lucky I guess. That does not negate the fact that there have been runaway ToyLex vehicles.

210delray

I have to side with kdhspyder on this one. Quoting from an injury lawyers' website is almost as lame as saying Charlene Blake is credible. Maybe they aren't ambulance chasers, but the "tone" as you would say of their writing seems to indicate as much.

210delray

All 3 of those reports raise skepticism in my mind. The first one sounds like the classic pedal misapplication -- he had trouble starting, then the car "lurched" forward 25 feet into a garage. He received minor knee scratches -- why would one need the airbags to deploy if that was the only injury?

The second says the accelerator stuck continuously, but the engine stalled. That doesn't make sense to me.

The 3rd one sounds like a very typical crash situation -- "Officer, I applied the brakes hard, enough that the ABS activated, but I couldn't stop until I hit the tree!" Explain to me how ABS can kick in, but the car not stop -- maybe the road was icy, OR more likely, he STARTED braking way too late to avoid the crash.:

Yes, as kdh says, we need more information here.

I'm sure I could pick a car, any popular car, and find reports like these. I've seen some before -- they can be hilarious.

210delray

I've said this before, but this is a war over semantics.

NHTSA did deny a petition by an individual for a formal defect investigation of sudden acceleration in certain Toyota and Lexus cars.

NHTSA however did not close the books on the inquiry, and Toyota earlier stated that they would provide owners with an INTERIM letter recommending removal of the driver's floormats on 3.8 million vehicles. Toyota also stated it fully intended to send out another letter (including a recall notice) once a better solution to the problem could be found.

210delray

And here is what I found: The instructions state that the pushbutton start (optional) has 3 modes -- Off, Accessory, and On and explains how to toggle between the 3 modes. Notably, ON can't be activated unless your foot is on the brake pedal (good idea of course). To start the engine, you push ON and then release the button once the starter begins to crank. Cranking will continue for several seconds (with your finger off the button) until the engine fires up.

However, there isn't a single word about what it takes to turn the engine off if the car is in motion. Do you press the button twice, hold it down for x seconds, or something else? No mention. The instructions appear to always assume the car is stopped whenever you touch the button.

I also noticed GM removed the rather lengthy chapter about defensive driving that they had provided in recent years. Maybe they figured that no one really reads the manual anyway, so why waste space with something that doesn't pertain directly to the car itself? A pity, because it was actually well written IMO.

gagrice

It sounds to me like several of the manufacturers had a rush to market on the keyless start system. I personally would not like it. I am just not that lazy. I want to put a key in the ignition lock and twist. Though Toyota did warn against trying to stop the engine under runaway conditions. Steering and braking will be further degraded.

gagrice

The premise of my post was in response to our salesman friend acting like there is no problem with the Toyota drive by wire system. With 100s of claims to the contrary, I disagree. I am as sure as you, that many of the claims are bogus. I don't believe the case of the CHP and his family being killed is bogus. That car was out of control and the BRAKES would not stop it over several miles of highway. That is a defect that Toyota HAS to remedy. I am sure the system VW/Audi uses was incorporated when Audi was the focus of the same situation. If Toyota was watching they would have incorporated a similar fail safe system and 5 fatal accidents would have likely been avoided.

iluvmysephia1

Toyota is not going to be able to just cover this one up. We are hot on this case and we demand true answers to what happened. This has me feeling good that I didn't buy that 2006 Scion xA in Polar White that I test drove. That was a 5-speed, though. Perhaps it would be easier to stop a runaway Toyota if it's a manual tranny, huh?

This is a tragedy that is under investigation that needs to be solved. And Toyota needs to step up, admit they did people wrong and fix each and every bit of it.

I can't help wondering that these automatic transmissions and the ECU's controlling everything are too "automated" overall. If they fail you may really be screwed as to stopping them in an emergency.

andres3

So who is to blame?

How about we blame the driver/operator of the vehicle. The owner/driver is responsible to make sure his equipment is installed and operating
properly.

xlu

U.S. criticizes Toyota statement on floor mats

‘Very dangerous problem’ still under review by federal safety regulators
Associated Press, Wed., Nov . 4, 2009

WASHINGTON - Toyota Motor Corp. released misleading information about an investigation into problems with stuck gas pedals that led to a massive Toyota recall, the U.S. government said Wednesday, stressing the issue is still under review by federal safety regulators.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said it was still investigating the case and meeting with Toyota to hear about the company's plan to redesign the vehicles and fix "this very dangerous problem."

Toyota recalled 3.8 million vehicles in the U.S. last month over problems with gas pedals that got stuck on floor mats and told owners to remove driver's side floor mats and not replace them until the automaker had determined a fix to the problem.

Toyota said in a statement on Monday that NHTSA had confirmed "that no defect exists in vehicles in which the driver's floor mat is compatible with the vehicle and properly secured."

But NHTSA said that was inaccurate and the government was investigating possible causes of the acceleration problem. Removing the floor mats was "simply an interim measure" and "does not correct the underlying defect in the vehicles involving the potential for entrapment of the accelerator by floor mats, which is related to accelerator and floor pan design."

"The matter is not closed until Toyota has effectively addressed the defect by providing a suitable vehicle based solution," NHTSA said in the statement, which the department said was issued to correct "inaccurate and misleading information" from the automaker.

Toyota spokesman John Hanson said "it was never our intention to mislead or provide inaccurate information. Toyota agrees with NHTSA's position that the removal of the floor mats is an interim measure and that further action is required. We continue to discuss an appropriate vehicle remedy or remedies."

The recall includes 2007-2010 model year Toyota Camry, 2005-2010 Toyota Avalon, 2004-2009 Toyota Prius, 2005-2010 Tacoma, 2007-2010 Toyota Tundra, 2007-2010 Lexus ES350 and 2006-2010 Lexus IS250/IS350.

imidazol97

Did you find an online copy?

imidazol97

>Maybe they aren't ambulance chasers,

The group doesn't come across as ambulance chasers. Indeed if there's a wrong done to me or my family, I could think of noone better at finding the little facts hidden away about what really happened than a crack group of attorneys used to delving into the hidden corners of a company's secrets. I'd want Stan Chesley, Cincinnati, as a class action suit leader in that kind of case. A friend who suffered as a result of either doctor, hospital, or staple gun manufacturer error has one of the best attorneys checking on his case.

At least the posting got our Toyota salesman's notice!

Do the Toyota sales people really, really believe that people will buy the theory that the reported cases of unintended acceleration are due to floor mats OR due to being made up?

gagrice

How about we blame the driver/operator of the vehicle. The owner/driver is responsible to make sure his equipment is installed and operating

And when it fails by no fault of the owner? The Brakes just burn up trying to stop the car. That is what happened. The brakes were inadequate on that ES350 to stop the car at high speed. They were according to eye witnesses ON FIRE. So is that the drivers fault? I don't believe that it is. Toyota has a history of denial until they are routed out by shear numbers of complaints. I have not forgotten the 100s of Prius stalling for no good reason other than poorly written code in their ECU. The accidents caused by that Toyota failure had nothing to do with the driver's making sure his equipment was in good condition.

imidazol97

As a test of brakes' ability to stop the car WITHOUT the vacuum boost due to a wide open throttle, I used the upslope in the area to use WOT on my car and see if the vacuum assist completely disappeared and if I could still slow that car against the motor. It did lose all vacuum assist that I could sense. I could still slow the car by a forceful application of my brake pedal against the motor in a low gear due to WOT.

Why didn't the Toyota Camry involved do the same?

kdhspyder

No your interpretation is inaccurate. You're reading more into it than is there.

Yes the dope(s) who jumped the gun at Toyota should be flogged and lashed for stupidity. However the NHTSA doesn't say anything that hasn't been stated already. It only slaps down the dummies at Toyota for bad PR.

You highlighted the relevant section.
and "does not correct the underlying defect in the vehicles involving the potential for entrapment of the accelerator by floor mats, which is related to accelerator and floor pan design."

This is about entrapment of the accelerator by the floor mats. NOTHING else.

Avoiding this is what is being studied by both Toyota and the Feds. All your other scary goblins are just fog and smoke. Stick to these facts.

Having looked at a bunch of vehicles including your Sequoia there is no way for the OEM carpetted mats to block the accelerator. This has never even been a question at NHTSA. But they have to do something for their own PR. They have to seem like they're taking charge so that they don't get excoriated in the press like they were after their hands-off actions with Ford/Firestone.

They will 'force' Toyota to redesign it's pedal to raise it up a half inch or so that is it even farther away from the floor. They will 'force' Toyota to install smart pedals on all new vehicles ( prolly in the works anyway ). And then they'll declare victory!!!

The smart pedals are the key to solving this. Every maker will have them soon IMO.

gagrice

They will 'force' Toyota to install smart pedals on all new vehicles ( prolly in the works anyway ). And then they'll declare victory!!!

I would think they would be required to upgrade the 3.8 Million being recalled as well. At least for the people that feel vulnerable. Many poster's here like living on the ragged edge. So they can keep their cars as is.

kdhspyder

This is why I'm very very skeptical about all the alleged reports.

I'll grant that reports have been circulating for some time. However it's the direction of the vector of these reports that indicate to me that they are questionable. To wit..

We have reports of UIA from drivers who may or may not have been involved in crashes.
However other than All Weather mats there are no verifications of anything else occuring of these reports. There's nothing from...
..the NHTSA
..any insurance company
..any crash scene investigator
..any current or former Service Mgr
..any current or former sales person.

IMO if there were a more systemic problem that someone, anyone would be going public with some verifiable data.

Now I know the feelings of some hereabouts about governmental lackeys. However the real pitbulls from which I've seen nothing are ... the insurance companies. These are the ones that have real solid financial vested interests in finding the root cause here. These are the ones that lose money every time a crash occurs. These would be the ones most interested in eliminating systemic errors.

There's nothing from them.

All the vectors point AWAY from the operators. 'Nope I didn't do anything wrong Officer the car just took off on its own'. Hmmmm.

kdhspyder

All vehicles here in the US except the ones with smart pedals are going to have the brakes burn out if they are put in the same situation as the SD driver. That's what the point of the Consumer Reports test was. They took a Venza and an HHR and tried it.

Your Sequoia, my Prius, your next Tahoe, a Milan, a Ram all of them are going to lose braking capability at WOT when the brakes are applied unless the throttle is cancelled somehow via smart pedals. This is not particular to one maker or another. It doesn't matter which vehicle the SD driver was using. If it happened in a Ford then he'd have been in the same danger, ditto GM, ditto Honda.

kdhspyder

I used the upslope in the area to use WOT on my car and see if the vacuum assist completely disappeared and if I could still slow that car against the motor.

In the SD crash on Rte 125 the crash occurred after a long downhill exit from the highway...not an upslope. Another complication, gravity entered to work against that family.

Apparently he had been trying to stop for some time as well. If the 911 call took 50 sec then he probably realized that he was in danger well before that. All auto testers recognize brake fade after multiple braking attempts. Now combine brake fade with no boost due to the throttle being at WOT.

Try your test again down that slope while braking over a period of 2-3 min at WOT......you'll probably want to eject.

british_rover

Brake fluid begins to boil at about 400 degrees. Well at least regular DOT3 fluid does and the higher spec DOT 4 lasts just a little longer. I am not sure how the other to DOT specs work out.

It doesn't take long for a caliper to reach 400 degrees under long braking from 100 mph going downhill.

Normally that wouldn't matter because the rotor and caliper can shed enough heat to keep the brake fluid from boiling up the line but if the throttle is wide open they aren't going to be able to shed heat fast enough.

Maybe if the brakes were applied hard so that the brake assist kicked in and full force was being applied it would make a difference. But if the brakes were applied slowly at first then brake assist wouldn't kick in but heat would still build up in the system.

This was in Socal in the summer too right? It was probably already close to a 100 degrees ambient that day.

Every car built for the last probably 20 years has brakes powerful enough to overpower the engine.

Inside Line's own test of a E350 VS. a new Lacrosse have the 60-0 stopping within a few feet of each other.

The brakes aren't underpowered for their class.

The FWD TL has similar stopping distance from 60.

The problem is once the brake fluid boils at a little over 400 degrees you are done for. No more brakes at all then.

kdhspyder

Good data. Thanks.

surrfurtom

Most any piece of machinery has a kill button/switch. It immediately (not 3 long seconds later) shuts down the power in an emergency. For many years the key switch on cars has provided that function. For 99% of drivers that is the intuitive method of shutting off the engine. Turn the key to off and the engine shuts down. This is a major design/safety flaw when Toyota didn't provide such an obvious kill switch, easily accessible to both driver and passenger, when they went to the new push button. Had that been provided, the brake and floor mat issue wouldn't be nearly as relevant.

kdhspyder

True it should be more intuitive. The START/STOP button is new -relatively - but there are millions of them on the road now and millions of drivers do understand how to use them.

But actually there's an easier and safer method. When you kill power to the vhehicle, any vehicle, you lose all power assists. It's not impossible to control it but it's a lot harder to do so.

Shifting to Neutral is much better. Doing this disconnects the wheels from the throttle and all power assists are still available.

grandtotal

Your Sequoia, my Prius, your next Tahoe, a Milan, a Ram all of them are going to lose braking capability at WOT when the brakes are applied unless the throttle is cancelled somehow via smart pedals.

Your Prius will not lose braking assistance at WOT. The vacuum is provided by an electrically driven pump.

kdhspyder

I didn't know that. Good info to add to the file, tks.

explorerx4

you are so willing to jump on anything someone posts that 'could' support you.
what is the capacity of this electric driven pump?
considering the Prius is all about efficiency, it probably isn't designed for over capacity.
look at it this way, do you think a Prius a/c compressor could work in a Sequoia?

corvette

Right, and if you let up on the brake pedal because the car wasn't slowing down fast enough, it would cause even more heat to build up in the system.

corvette

Your Prius will not lose braking assistance at WOT. The vacuum is provided by an electrically driven pump.

I'm even more surprised the hybrids don't have a smart pedal, since left-foot braking is detrimental to fuel efficiency. I'm guessing that, on a hybrid, the first bit of brake pedal travel only activates the regenerative braking system and not the disc brakes.

grandtotal

do you think a Prius a/c compressor could work in a Sequoia?

Would it work? Yes. Would a compressor designed for a midsize car be adequate for a fullsize SUV? No.

What's your point?

explorerx4

my point is a piece of equipment designed for normal operation, may not work as expected under extreme circumstances.
just because it is electric does not mean much.

210delray

No, my company bought a 2010 LaCrosse and I looked at the hard copy. Haven't had a chance to drive it, though.

210delray

The ignition key is the tried and true method, but pushbutton ignition switches have become common in higher end cars and in hybrids like the Prius.

Even if you have a separate kill switch (off button), it has to be designed so that it can't be accidentally hit while driving. I would imagine some kind of recessed design would help, AND you might have to hold down the button for 1/2 to 1 second.

As far as I know, only Audi has separate on and off buttons; does anyone out there know how the off button functions while the car is in motion?

surrfurtom

I thought I had posted this reply but don't see it.

If I had a situation of unanticipated WOT, I agree that shifting to neutral is an option, albeit a very expensive one that we all know will self destruct the engine in short order. It would cost thousands of dollars. It would be something that many would delay doing until it might be too late and that would lead to a bad outcome. Secondly the self destruction of the engine would also lead to loss of of all power assists so we are back to square one. I've driven cars that unexpectedly lost power and it does require concentration and effort to steer and apply brakes but it is still feasible.

Under no circumstances should either a familiar or unfamiliar driver be put in a position where they do not know how to shut down the engine immediately.

Toyota somehow missed the boat to provide a commonsensical solution to this problem that would save dollars and lives and that is the need for an obvious labeled kill switch that is accessible to drivers and passengers.

We can discuss the need for powerful brakes and in place floor mats but the obvious first need to any unforeseen circumstance is the ability to shut down the car.

corvette

...we all know will self destruct the engine in short order.

Not sure where you got your info, but modern cars have rev limiters. You can put your foot to the floor in Park or Neutral and they won't go much over the redline. Some cars won't exceed 4,000 rpm when the transmission is in Park or Neutral.

surrfurtom

Interesting and I don't doubt your knowledge on this, but I'll let someone else actually test the rev limiting functionality. When I want to shut down my engine for any reason, I want that ability right now....not delayed for 3 seconds. It doesn't seem to be an unreasonable request for drivers to have such capability, does it?

explorerx4

some of us think the smart gas pedal is a better solution.

explorerx4

btw, for some reason, i happened upon the flash point of transmission fluid, 421 degrees fahrenheit. *cough* can't shift transmission *cough* .

surrfurtom

That smart gas pedal might be a very adequate solution for stuck gas pedals but it only works when the car is in motion. It tells the signal to the brake to override the throttle control.

There might be a time though when the engine is running wild after an accident, and is pumping fuel through a broken fuel line etc even though vehicle motion is stopped. The obvious solution anytime you are involved in an accident is to shut off the engine immediately and that can be done only by directly opening the ignition circuit in gasoline internal combustion engines. If it is diesel then shut off fuel.

I still can't get hung up on the floor mats as being the root cause of these accidents. I've had cars for years that had floor mats that moved around sufficiently to sometimes get in the way of full brake and throttle action. I ended up securing them to the floor using velcro or cable ties to a floor post and that was the end of the problem. In the end I knew I could always shut down the engine by turning off the key. I used that the one time that the mat caused the accelerator pedal to become stuck in my driveway.

kdhspyder

My comment had nothing to do with this subject. It was simply a thanks for alerting me to something I didn't know before. No motive other than to be gracious.

explorerx4

you really need to review the NHTSA report about this incident.
it would help you make more informed posts.
also, have you ever heard of an inertia switch?
these have been around at least since the early 80's when fuel injection became mainstream.
shutting off the engine cuts off the power assist to the steering and brakes.
smart pedal retains them.
i like that better.

kdhspyder

Over on Prius Chat they have been doing exactly this. As corvette noted there is no chance of grenading your engine if you have a more modern one. The rev limiter works as explained.

At 80 mph the engine slows to idle and the vehicle slows down.

explorerx4

something you didn't know, but is it real?

210delray

There might be a time though when the engine is running wild after an accident, and is pumping fuel through a broken fuel line etc even though vehicle motion is stopped.

As has been noted, this is generally not true for today's cars. Many will shut down the fuel pump, turn on the hazard flashers and interior dome light, and unlock the doors. Some, such as GM cars with OnStar, will automatically call 911 if the impact is severe enough.

lemko

Hmmm! I'll have to look at the manual for my Cadillac DTS Performance and see if it has a chapter on defensive driving. The thing's already as thick as a Microsoft manual and comes with a smaller quick reference manual which itself is thicker than the entire owner's manual that came with my 1968 Buick Special Deluxe.

lemko

The fact that the CHP officer didn't get killed or kill somebody else a lot quicker in the incident attests to his driving skills.