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Horses have been bred for, I dunno, centuries? They've been bred for a lot of qualities, including gentleness (i.e., safety). You want that Mustang to be a well behaved pony and not Pinto on you, don't you?
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Again no independent reputable agency of any kind has found any substantiation for unintended acceleration in these reports. To me that speaks most loudly. All these reports have one vector. They come from the operators but no one can verify any of them.
The highest speed limit in the US (and Canada I think) is 80 mph on about 500 miles of I-10 and I-20 in west Texas and on 2 stretches of I-15 in Utah.
Why does any car in today's traffic need to go above 90 mph? If you say you need reserve power at 80 mph to get out of a jam, I'd find that hard to believe.
A friend of my wife's is big into horses. They have several including one that can trace its ancestry back to the big French warhorses in the middle ages that were bred for huge size. They had to be very big to hold not just the armored knight but the armor of the horses as well. This horse is enormous before it was even full grown, less then two years old it was already a good foot taller then me at the shoulder and is supposed to grow another foot or more. Only horses I have ever seen that were bigger are clydesdales and they weren't that much bigger.
Well, the other day, on a whim, I tried it on my 2000 Intrepid, on the way to work. On a back road, I stomped on it, and once I got up to around 50 mph I threw it into neutral, with my foot still on the gas. The revs had been climbing, and were around 4,000 rpm when I shifted to neutral. Once in neutral, it cut back a bit, to around 3800.
Also, I think most modern automatics are designed so that they're impossible to redline. FWIW, redline on my Intrepid is around 6500 rpm. If I stomp on it, usually it upshifts at around 6,000-6100 rpm. And even if you try to manually hold shift into the lower gears, it will upshift on its own. Plus, there isn't a place on the gearshift for 1st gear, so the lowest you can ever downshift to is second.
It's not just one company (Toyota) or two (counting Audi from the 80s). Here's a quote from the self-styled expert, Sean Kane, who runs Safety Research and Strategies, Inc.
Manufacturers may deny SUA [sudden unintended acceleration] exists, NHTSA may declare that it isn’t worth its time to thoroughly investigate these incidents, but consumers continue to lodge complaints about sudden unintended acceleration – and they can’t all be little old ladies in the first stages of dementia. The complaints data show clearly that some manufacturers and some vehicles are outliers, with significantly more complaints than their peers. In the last 10 years, the agency has collected some 24,000 consumer complaints (source: www.VSIRC.com). When these complaints are sorted by manufacturer and vehicle and charted, the vast majority of automakers flat-line at the bottom. The trendline of complaints for four manufacturers—Ford, GM, Chrysler, and Toyota, however, float above their peers with occasional spikes, leading one to conclude that either these manufacturers have a problem, or the most confused consumers gravitate to their vehicles.
Could the 4 cited manufacturers "float above their peers" because they happened to sell the most vehicles in the US until very recently? Kane doesn't say anything about a complaint rate.
Full link here (caution: tiny white font on a black background -- get out your reading glasses).
My intent, which most on here probably understand, was to see how much the brakes fad at full throttle in a lower gear with some time to apply the brakes if vacuum assist was totally lost.
I still had braking fairly easily after using the brakes on and off for several seconds after the power assist was depleted from the reservoir. It would have stopped the car against the motor in 2nd on a downslope.
The officer's ride was not completely downslope; it was a downslope at the end if I recall correctly. Otherwise he would have been below sea level always traveling downhill.
I cannot believe someone panicking (as I would) over not being able to turn off the "missing key" nor to get the car in neutral wouldn't have stood on the brakes hard at the beginning. Long before driving 2-3 minutes heating up rotors. Long before heating of brake fluid. And I'm sure he was much stronger than I am since he was a working officer.
What about the emergency brake--it doesn't use hydraulic fluid. Wouldn't someone press the emergency brake?
Frankly, it just doesn't add up here. Sweeping the problem under the mat as the sole problem just doesn't pass the test. As Judge Judy says if it doesn't sound right then it's not the way it happened.
Where is the black box report?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
My owner's manual talks about setting the parking brake when starting the van or putting it in park. There's a whole chapter called "In Case of Emergency" and it just talks about overheating, flashers, the fuel inertia switch and flats. Nothing about the brakes.
I find that distinction an interesting one. Overly vigorous application could cause both rears to lock up on my cars which would lead to a twist sideways or spin if the brakes weren't released to maintain some traction. But I found it easy to make a stop.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I have done such testing for brake drag and testing rear rotors/drums for runout. And always with no cars around, well there was mine... :P
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Definitely downhill on the exit ramp at the end, but it's hard to tell from Google Street View how much the road sloped uphill or downhill in the mile or two preceding the ramp. Perhaps Gary can enlighten us.
I still don't understand why the officer:
1. Did not put the car in neutral.
2. Didn't use the guardrails along the median to try to scrub off speed.
3. Took the exit ramp instead of staying on the freeway, despite the sharp left coming up ahead. Even if traffic were backed up there in the through lanes, couldn't he have used the shoulder?
At that point, with 4 peoples' lives in danger and the car not even your own, who cares about damaging the car?
She said that she would have jammed the gearshifter into Park if she were driving and suddenly realized that the brakes weren't working and that she was going faster and faster.
Or put it in neutral? IS that one of the pushbutton models. I don't think they used electrical connections for the buttons so it would have worked and gone into neutral.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
you get to decide if you want to use it.
it's called Mykey.
I still don't understand why the officer:
1. Did not put the car in neutral.
That is the biggest question in my mind. It would be the first thing I would do, long before the car got to 120 MPH. I was expecting the NHTSA or CR or somebody to test that aspect. What happens if you try shifting out of gear at 100 MPH+ in an ES350 with the throttle stuck wide open? The CR tests were worthless in duplicating this situation and the NHTSA only took pictures and identified the floor mat as being the wrong one. They also said the brakes were burnt up from trying to stop.
I don't remember any guard rails. Only a gravel ditch on either side that would probably cause you to roll at that speed. Exiting onto 52 would get you into even heavier traffic. I believe he was trying his best to avoid other vehicles.
I believe we are being kept in the dark on the black box. Is it a bombshell for Lexus? I cannot imagine that it takes over 2 months to decipher what it holds. Will this go down like the other fatal accidents in Toyota built vehicles?
Basically says that the NHTSA still has found NO evidence of unintended acceleration except for when the floor mats were unsecured or incorrect. So, it still is a floor mat issue.
Regulators slam Toyota over 'no defect' claim
U.S. auto safety agency rebukes an assertion that it found nothing wrong in vehicles involved in a massive recall over incidents of unintended acceleration.
Federal safety regulators have sharply rebuked Toyota Motor Corp. for issuing "inaccurate and misleading" statements asserting that no defect exists in the 3.8 million vehicles it recalled after a Lexus sedan accelerated out of control in San Diego County, killing four people.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration issued a statement Wednesday that the recalled Toyota and Lexus vehicles do have an "underlying defect" that involves the design of the accelerator pedal and the driver's foot well.
In response to the NHTSA statement, Toyota said it was "never our intention to mislead or provide inaccurate information." The statement added that it was still developing "vehicle-based" remedies to prevent unintended acceleration events, in which motorists say their vehicles suddenly speed out of control.
Toyota spokesman Brian Lyons suggested last month that these remedies might include changes in the placement of the pedals, or a change to the engine control software in the vehicles' onboard computers. On Wednesday, however, Lyons declined to comment on any specific fixes.
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-toyota-recall5-2009nov05,0,7645994.story?t- rack=rss
100 posts a day and nothing new has been said for days.
Hey gagrice, this has been the "cover-up decade" at Toyota. Toyota IS the new GM (which leaves me unsure what the "new GM" is...). I think that might be what you want to hear, and I think it's a safe statement. But it would be neat to talk about other Toyota news as well...
In a way, it's kind of fascinating to watch these two mega-corporations gradually get themselves in more and more trouble as cost-cutting increases to the max and beyond (which was news this week at Toyota: they are projecting much smaller than expected losses this year now, due to a VERY successful, VERY aggressive cost-cutting program initiated 12 months ago; you have to wonder what costs they had left to cut after the devasatation they wreaked across the line in the 90s) while quality and design fall to the lowest common denominator in a misguided quest to remain the biggest...
:sick:
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
In ~7 weeks this discussion will be past its sell by date.
Right, it's pushbutton, and uses mechanical connections. However, it does have some safety features built in. If you press reverse going at a forward speed of more than 10 mph, it'll just go into neutral. And if you try to press 1st or 2nd at too fast of a speed (I think 50 and 75 mph, respectively, or somewhere close) it won't downshift. That's to keep from over-revving the engine, but in an emergency situation where you need to slow the thing down, I guess that would work against you.
However, you can throw it into neutral at whatever speed you want. And if you had to kill the power, it wouldn't be too hard to haul it down from a high speed. Power steering assist is negligible at highway speeds in most cars...you really only need it in tight, slow, cornering situations, parking, etc. And while you'd probably use up your vacuum reserve pretty quickly, it has beefy 12" drum brakes at all four wheels that will more than do the job. If you lose power, you're actually better off with all-drum brakes, because they require much less pedal effort from the driver.
As for the parking brake, it does clamp down on the driveshaft. However, I do know, from experience, that the engine can over-ride the brake. Years ago, I drove my grandmother to the grocery store in the car. I hadn't had the car very long, wasn't quite used to its idiosyncracies, and forgot to release the parking brake. Drove it about 2 miles to the store with it on. Back in those days, you had to pay extra if you wanted a warning light to remind you that the parking brake was on, and whoever bought originally bought this car didn't spring for that!
I don't think I did any permanent damage, though. That was 19 years ago, and the parking brake still works fine today (even if the real brakes don't! :surprise: )
Did they actually find a jammed floor mat in the crashed car? The LA Times article points to a rather potentially large number of unintended acceleration incidents on Toyota and Lexus. Seems kind of high for people just ignoring their floor mats or hitting the wrong pedal? Cars are getting very electronic, so isn't it possible there can be faults in a vehicle design? I mean it appears aircraft faults brought down the Air France Airbus. In the past two decades there have been previously undiscovered rudder faults on B737 and tail control faults on MD-80's, and aircraft are subject to much tighter design controls and maintenance and inspection than cars. Ford had incidents of cruise control igniting their vehicles into flames. At first it was poo-pooed, then it was supposed to be a minor number of vehicles and eventually it turned out to be a whole slew of vehicles potentially had the problem. What makes Toyota any less likely to have a hidden fault? So I guess I take a different perspective and remain a bit skeptical until Toyota factually proves otherwise. Its their product and they need to prove it isn't the problem and that their cars are safe! Besides, its not like Toyota is the only good vehicles out there, so why take a chance with your family until the matter is clearly resolved?
Read the stories about 1/4 of way down the page to the box titled Lexus Sudden Acceleration. Notice the statements. Most don't sound up or making excuses for driver carelessness to me!
Listen to the audio and fit it to the pieces the mechanic is described as earlier saying. then all of a sudden it's Mats, Mats, Mats.
Odd that some think it's the cruise control taking over.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
It was melted onto the gas pedal by the heat of the fire.
To answer the other point this was probably why the idiot at Toyota issued the ill-advised press release. He/she was immediately smacked down by the NHTSA and Toyota execs. STFU, stupid....or something to that effect.
As to the other reports of Unintended Acceleration there are many reports and they've been investigated all through this decade. The NHTSA has never been able to find anything other than All Weather floor mats as the cause...except driver error or outright lying ( fictitious report ). Neither has any crash scene investigator nor has any insurance company or any other indpendent impartial organization found any cause other than the occasional improperly placed All Weather mat.
What does that tell you?
See the two prior posts. Not only were they able to identify that the All Weather mats were there but they also could identify the Part No of the mats. The mats belonged in the hybrid SUV not the ES350.
This dealer is in a world of hurts from just about everybody on the planet. He might as well have rolled a bowling ball into the driver's footwell.
Did they find the car's OEM mat under the hybrid SUV mat, too?
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
The rev limiter will protect the engine.
I tried it today in two different vehicles, an 08 Highlander 4WD at 65 mph in traffic and an 07 Prius at 55 mph in traffic. Shifting to N is immediate and immediately disconnects the wheels from the throttle input.