Toyota on the mend?

houdini1

For example from 2010 to 2011 ...
..all pickups were suddenly wiped off the TOP PICK list
..all large SUVs were suddenly wiped off the list
..80% of all the midsized SUVs were suddenly wiped off the list.
None of these vehicles changed.

This just tells me what I suspected all along. Most of these ratings are meaningless so why use them as a buying criteria. The cars make changes to meet the criteria but this does not always make them safer because they might skimp somewhere else.

There used to be a test where they backed cars into a steel post to test for damage. The post always hit squarely in the center of the rear bumper. Then they figured out that the cars doing well on the test had all put a big block of some type of dense foam under the bumper cover and squarely in the center of the rear bumper.

So it is kind of like when that ol' genie gives you three wishes...there is always a GOTCHA !!

210delray

I disagree. It's fair to raise the bar, and you'll get safer vehicles faster than by the slow-moving regulatory apparatus of the government. Besides this is the first year the bar has been raised since the 2007 model year. The goal isn't to just get good ratings in the tests, but also improve safety in the real world.

Yes, manufacturers got around the old 5 mph pole test by adding protection right in the center. The IIHS countered with testing the rear bumpers off-center if such a band-aid was used. IIHS then dispensed altogther with the pole test because real-world claims data showed that this isn't a common crash scenario.

210delray

It's right here, and not from a cheerleader source.

Despite allegedly falling quality, magical accelerator pedals, Hyundai snapping at their heels, depressed stock price, management musical chairs and Volkswagen taking their “world’s biggest car maker” by volume title you’d think Toyota would have little to smile about, but they do. Reuters reports that even in this creaky economy Toyota managed to post a 5% increase on global sales. Sales in the United States may have fell 3.5%, but sales increased in Japan by 15% and sales in China rose a whopping 45%. The future also looks good. Executives at Toyota believe that there’s a good chance that sales will rise in the United States. Finally, the boys at Toyota City have something to be pleased about. Now if only they could sort out their cheapening interiors, lack of sales in Europe, bland styling and letting the competition catch them up, they may be pleased enough to break out the sake.

houdini1

I agree that there is some value...but if I liked a car, not having the highest ratings on all these tests would not be a deal breaker for me. I prefer the old "butt in the seat" ratings that I assign.

kdhspyder

I'm not against the IIHS doing this. I think it's good for us the buying public. The fact that the IIHS moves its criteria regularly - as opposed to the political body that is the Federal Government - makes us much more secure while driving or riding in a vehicle.

I too don't put an extreme weight of value on these rankings because I feel that I understand from whence they came. Nothing in the pickups or Camrys or Fusions have changed to make them any less safe...it's just that right now a few models have tested to be more safe. I'd feel perfectly safe in any of the above in normal circumstances.

Soon every maker will follow suit so that they don't appear to be laggards. Life continues onward.

The next 'safety feature' that I can see being added is a really really really controversial one, but one that will save thousands of lives. Ready????

To get the next TOP PICK a vehicle must be outfitted with an in-vehicle breathalyzer device like chronic DUI offenders now have. This takes hordes of loaded guns out from behind the wheel. I'm certain that the insurance companies would be all over this idea.

andre1969

To get the next TOP PICK a vehicle must be outfitted with an in-vehicle breathalyzer device like chronic DUI offenders now have. This takes hordes of loaded guns out from behind the wheel. I'm certain that the insurance companies would be all over this idea.

Well, I have heard that something like 50% of all traffic accidents involve alcohol in some way or another. However, if you've had a couple beers, come to a complete stop at a red light, and get rear-ended by some bozo yakking on the cell phone, I think they still count that as "alcohol related".

210delray

Well, I have heard that something like 50% of all traffic accidents involve alcohol in some way or another. However, if you've had a couple beers, come to a complete stop at a red light, and get rear-ended by some bozo yakking on the cell phone, I think they still count that as "alcohol related".

Thankfully, the percentage has declined in recent decades to about 35 or 40%, at the same time as the total number of fatal crashes has declined. I'm not sure of the definition of "alcohol-related," because in your scenario where you're clearly not at fault, I think the likelihood of you being breath-tested is minimal.

What we'd really want to know is how much alcohol was in the bozo's system.

andres3

It was a Bozo that made Honda gain more business by totalling her 2005 Civic EX by rear-ending it and so she got a 2007 Civic EX.

That 2005 would have lasted flawlessly for 500,000 miles. Darn bozos!

sellaturcica

Why is it always the Subaru Impreza (except the WRX). Does Subaru weaken the side impact and roof beams on the WRX or something? Highly unlikely.

corvette

Huh

Lol wut

Umm, VTEC just kicked in yo? :P

corvette

The thicker roof pillars are partly because of that fad and partly because of trying to stuff fairly thick side curtain airbags into them.

My 2002 Altima had curtain airbags, but you could actually see around the A-pillars to make a left turn. This isn't true of a lot of newer cars--I think Edmunds' test noted that the new Buick LaCrosse's A-pillars were 8.5" wide!

mcdawgg

Here's some more bad news for those who hate Toyota:

I cannot link you to it, but go to autoguide.com and the article is "Contrary to Reports, Toyota Still Worlds Largest Automaker"

stever

Fun with numbers. Here's the link.

gagrice

Did Toyota find 400,000 missing vehicles? Not sure of your source. There are at least half dozen sources claim that Toyota no longer resides on the top of the heap. Except for recalls this year. They have recalled more than they produced this year. The criteria is still who builds the most vehicles.

VW-Porsche has overtaken Toyota as the world's largest automaker, at least through the first nine months of 2009, having produced 4.4 million cars to Toyota's 4.0 million.

http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/daily-news/091110-Volkswagen-St- eals-Toyota-s-Crown-as-World-s-Largest-Automaker/

http://www.leftlanenews.com/vw-overtakes-toyota-as-worlds-largest-automaker.html-

http://autos.yahoo.com/articles/autos_content_landing_pages/1161/volkswagen-stea- ls-toyotas-crown-as-worlds-largest-automaker/

http://blogs.thecarconnection.com/marty-blog/1038086_volkswagen-trumps-toyota-to- -become-worlds-largest-automaker

http://www.nowpublic.com/sports/volkswagen-steals-toyotas-crown-worlds-largest-a- utomaker

http://www.inautonews.com/volkswagen-is-the-world%E2%80%99s-largest-automaker

gagrice

Does that mean if Toyota owns a hundred shares of Hyundai they get to count them? A very ambiguous stretch wouldn't you say? I own Ford stock so I get to count all the vehicles they sell. If I buy some shares of Toyota (which is unlikely) then I can be the number one car company owner. The most important number should be net profit for the year. By the time Toyota gets done with their recalls they may be broke.

nippononly

has announced that the 2011 Sonata will have direct injection. The world's "largest automaker" STILL doesn't have DI in the Camry, or any of its Toyota-branded cars to my knowledge, despite the emissions and fuel economy benefits that accrue from using it.

Those who regularly EXCEED the safety standards set by the IIHS will always remain COMPLIANT the next time the standards go up. Those who do just enough to meet the standard will always be playing catch-up.

stever

I own Ford stock

52 week high was hit this morning - should have sold some.

International sales of GM should include Holden Vauxhall shouldn't they? (lost my scorecard for a second there). So VW should get to count Porsche, Audi, Škoda, SEAT, etc.

And Toyota should count Lexus and Scion. Throwing in 16.5% of Subaru would be a stretch though even though Toyota is a Fuji Heavy Industries partner with that percentage of ownership.

Or you could just put Ford up against Chevy against Lexus against Kia (ignoring their parent, Hyundai).

More fun with numbers. How about some fun with yen and dollars?

"Now that a weak dollar and strong yen are hammering Toyota's profits, Toyoda said in a recent speech, the exchange rates and economic weakness could force Toyota's "capitulation to irrelevance or death."

Business Week

xlu

The IIHS (Insurance Institute just Highway Safety) just announced 27 winners of 2010 vehicle TOP SAFETY PICK award. Ford have 6 winners, Volkswagen 5, Subaru 5, Chrysler 4, GM 2, Honda 2, ......and Toyota 0!

2009 is a watershed year for Toyota:

Toyota's worldwide sales (revenue) of the 1st half of the fiscal year dropped 31%.

Toyota lost 1.5 billion dollars in the 1st half of the fiscal year.

Toyota lost the No. 1 automaker title to VW in 2009, after claiming that position only for one year (2008).

Toyota produced 3.1 million cars world wide in the 1st half of the fiscal year; yet it recalled a total of 6 million cars.

People usually associate these numbers with GM when it was the No. 1 auto maker. There must be a curse to anyone in that position.

paul3637

Now I see why Toyota didn't call its recall a recall in the case of the VVT-i rubber oil line that leaks or ruptures ..... leading to potential engine failure.. Instead they called it a "campaign."

I still think Toyota designs great vehicles but their bureaucracy is something like a cross between GM and the post office. They are more and more out of touch with the customers and it's like Toyota headquarters doesn't have Internet access on their computers so they can stop little problems before big ones arise. It's dealer network does not give consistent advice.

It took Toyota 3 years to fix a design defect on the assembly line after they discovered the problem and 4 years for the "recall." Lexus engineers apparently don't talk to the Toyota brand engineers since they made the design change two years before Toyota vehicles made the same change. Toyota USA sends a letter to customers saying one thing and Toyota Canada sends out a letter to affected vehicle owners that is polar opposite. Then to top it off, they do a "band aid" fix which delays the problem rather than fixes is permanently.

See Toyota V6 Oil Line Scandal at

http://sites.google.com/site/toyotav6oillinescandal/

mcdawgg

Depends on the source as to who is the biggest as far as sales goes - I say "who cares!"

I notice certain people did not respond to post #3352 - I can't wait to see your responses. It is fun to see the hate! I could post a bunch of negatives, scandals, etc. about any automaker, but why bother? :confuse:

houdini1

No, it means that this is what VW did. Didn't you read the article ???

imidazol97

Post 3367 by xlu says it all.

Add that to #3368 about oil line campaigns instead of recalls..., pretty much says it.

doggrandma

LOL! I guess that goes to show there really is nothing new under the sun.

If this design is just a fad, I hope it goes away soon. Ugh.

No offense meant to the venerable Gremlin, of course. Whoever thought of naming a car after a fictional creature that mysteriously messed up engines and mechanical parts?

For that matter, I don't understand the name of the Kia Borrego. Does that mean something? It reminds me of the word "borborygmi", which is the scientific term for stomach noises.

lemko

Geeze, Andre! I'm surprised you forgot this one!

bumpy

I don't understand the name of the Kia Borrego. Does that mean something?

http://www.goodtime.net/mvi/lomvi050.htm

The Borrego is the successor to the old Hyundai Terracan, which was basically a Korean Land Cruiser.

gagrice

it means that this is what VW did.

I did read that. However we don't know if they own a share or controlling interest as they now do with Porsche. The difference being, control and just a chunk of stock as Toyota owns of Subaru should be the deciding factor on who claims the vehicle sales. If that really makes any difference. I still look at the net profit as the most important. With customer satisfaction very close behind. Toyota has lost money and customers during 2009.

PS
Hopefully the Toyota shares in Subaru do not ruin that brand. I would buy an Outback with a diesel engine.

iluvmysephia1

to me in all of the entire automotive world is the fact that VW sells more cars than any other automaker. This, to me, is the same as saying that Dennis Rodman has never had a single tattoo on his body, anywhere, at any time in his life.

Who would spend large cash on a VW? Fuh-get-a-bout-it! They're electronically buzz-traps.

I respect Toyota more than VW, even if they have at least one crappy dealer in San Diego.

210delray

The latest I read about this is that VW was "pulling a GM," that is, counting car sales from companies in which it owns less than a 50% share.

Here's the latest for all you haters out there:

Here and here.

What's especially ironic are the GM fans making fun of Toyota when it's not at all certain if GM will survive without further taxpayer handouts.

sanjaysdca

For that matter, I don't understand the name of the Kia Borrego. Does that mean something? It reminds me of the word "borborygmi", which is the scientific term for stomach noises

Believe Borrego is place name...as in Anza Borrego. Very rugged area in Southern California.
http://www.parks.ca.gov/?page_id=638

Borrego is sometimes used as a name for bighorn mountain sheep living in Anza Borrego. A very good NAME for a traditional SUV.....I am not saying Kia Borrego is a good (or bad) SUV...but the name is apt for a good REAL SUV

mcdawgg

Well, not everything there is accurate, and I still don't see anyone addressing the positives.

If I wanted to waste my time, I could dig up tons of negatives about ANY automaker, your favorites included. :confuse: :sick: I could post how much debt Ford has, about all their recalls, scandals, etc.

I cannot believe I see some people hoping for the worst - I don't get it. Maybe someone can explain this?

Toyota is the automaker that has taught the other makers how to be successful, and many other manufactures in non-automotive industries study Toyota also as the benchmark of great manufacturing. I am sure you will debate it, but the vast majority agree with this. 2009 has not been the best year for Toyota, but you can be sure that 2010 + will be better as a result. The best learn from mistakes, and they have admitted many errors already and made plans to improve.

In the meantime, I'll start praying that your favorites really screw-up - nah, I got better things to do! I need to stop wasting my time on this.

british_rover

Different seats in the WRX vs the rest of the imprezas so probably no active headrests so probably doesn't do well in the rear impact test.

imidazol97

One of the two posts has this quote, "Sales in the United States may have fell 3.5%..." Can we trust a source that has poor grammar? It should be "have fallen."
I guess we can.

Interesting two links.

>especially ironic are the GM fans making fun of Toyota

Oh how the mighty fall. It was okay for Toyota fans to continually ridicule GM--er, that should be it is okay for ....

That's half the fun around here.

vrm

Toyota has never been a leader in the safety arena - they have always followed the lead of their competitors.

When Honda made all the safety features "standard", Toyota was forced to do the same. Until then Toyota would sell side airbags and Electronic stability control in the form of optional packages.

The latest IIHS tests show that safety is still not a priority for Toyota. The Toyota 'Star' safety system is just marketing slogan which does not include any new safety features.

stever

Talk about Schadenfreude - the review linked in this post over in the Venza discussion should be called for unnecessary roughness!

vrm, "2010 Toyota Venza" #28, 19 Nov 2009 10:15 am

Direct MSN link.

kdhspyder

When Honda made all the safety features "standard", Toyota was forced to do the same. Until then Toyota would sell side airbags and Electronic stability control in the form of optional packages.

The latest IIHS tests show that safety is still not a priority for Toyota. The Toyota 'Star' safety system is just marketing slogan which does not include any new safety features.

That's not true in the least. You have to have a wider perspective to see the whole picture. Yes it may be true that Honda made some features standard earlier than Toyota did but there was a very specific reason for that.

Toyota fixes the designs of its vehicle for an entire generation. The current Gen 6 Camry is an example. It debuted in Mar 06 as a 2007 model. It was designed in '04-'05. At that time active headrest restraints were not required by any maker, they still aren't. They are only 'required' in order to get a TopPick rating from the IIHS. However the IIHS didn't require this until 2007. The Gen 6 Camry was already being sold for 18 months by that time.

The Gen 6 Camry did make VSC/Trac optional/standard and 7 airbags standard in all the models because that's the way it was designed from the start. Active headrest restraints were not designed in at that time. The next Gen 7 Camry in about 18 months will almost assuredly have AHRs designed into it then. At that time the one non-GOOD ranking will become GOOD and the Camry will become a TOP PICK.

Given stated your view just above what is your take on the fact that the Accord did not pass the IIHS's roof crush test while the Camry did? Is Honda trailing the field - as usual - in this new safety criterium?

**************IMPORTANT****************************
You have to check your facts before opening yourself up to being slapped around on the internet. Somebody :shades: is going to check your statements for factual accuracy. Let's see just for kicks what Edmunds has to say here about a safety-conscious shopper looking at Accords and Camrys in Mar/Apr 2006.

2006 Accord LX
Stability Control...Not Available....NOT AVAILABLE????????
Traction Control...Not Available....NOT AVAILABLE????????
6 Airbags ...........Standard..........WHY ONLY 6??????

2007 Camry LE
Stability Control...Optional....OOPS
Traction Control...Optional....OOPS
7 Airbags............Standard....OOPS

So why was Honda so late in offering SC/Trac on it's highest volume model and trim? Hmmm? And today why does the Accord roof crush so easily that it won't get a top grade on the IIHS rollover test? The Camry does. Ouch...

corvette

Different seats in the WRX vs the rest of the imprezas...

That probably explains why the Civic Si isn't on the list.

grandtotal

Kdhspyder,

I am getting sick and tired of you introducing facts into every discussion. Don't you realise that what some people want here is misinformation, opinion and doubtful statistics?

Seriously, I'm glad you have the strength to bother with this because I don't. Keep up the good work.

kdhspyder

No problem, thanks :shades: .. It's just too easy in some cases like this....heck we're on a site that has all this information withing two minutes and still people persist in stating non-factual facts. A pet peeve.

corvette

Hyundai actually made ESC standard on the Sonata in 2006, which was before Toyota or Honda or even Volvo included it as standard on their mid-size cars. Honda made VSA standard on V6-equipped Accords from 2006 forward.

Having stability control greatly reduces the risk of being involved in a single-vehicle rollover crash, which makes an excellent roof crush rating less important to me than stability control.

berri

I think when you get to the top people like to try and take you down. George W was a bum, now its Obama. GM sucks, now its Toyota. I do think Toyota may have hired too many American trained MBA's with their overly financial and quantitative approach that seems to inevitably take things down like Detroit or Wall Street's recent fiascos. Focus on short term greed over everything else. If you always put the quarterly shareholder return over your customers, does that really build a strong long term company anymore? I also think increasing use of US business school graduates has led to some of the arrogance and hubris typical of GM and Ford not that long ago moving over to Japan Inc. For example, it is simply inexcusable for a brand that is priced higher because of its reputation for quality like Toyota to bring out vehicles with poor quality OEM tires that are unique in size and cost the owner a fortune to replace all too soon, even if this blatant cost cutting enhances shareholder return short term. Longer term, moves like this can end up reducing revenues as customers get fed up. Honda's not clean either. Look at the CRV with those Bridgestone Duelers and Honda's current refusal to step up to apparent deficient AC.

However, let's all be honest. Just think of the crap and high prices we'd be stuck with if Ford and GM didn't get Japanese competition. Remember the 70's and 80's? Prices kept escalating while D3 quality kept sinking. Cheapness ruled. So I'm glad Toyota and Honda came here. I think they need to think about asserting stronger Japanese leadership and management again though. If that was the case I doubt we'd have these things like unique sized and shabby OEM rubber. I think Tokyo generally focuses better on long term results instead of quarterly profit maximization which must be our US B-school mantra these days. Sometimes I fear Wall Street will inevitably become America's achilles heel.

kdhspyder

Yep Hyundai has made it a point to be at the head of the pack in relation to all the other mass marketed vehicles.. That's served them very well and it's good for the driving public.

nippononly

Unnecessary roughness? Hardly, I have checked out the Venza, and in terms of its mission and cheapo interior (in a vehicle starting at the mid-$20Ks in price???!!!) it is spot-on as to the problems with the whole Toyota line now: cost-cutting has run rampant and destroyed a lot of the goodness of this company, and having a crossover or truck for every season and every reason without having any good cars is a formula for automaker failure.

I am surprised that only 43% of the Toyotas sold in North America are actually made here, when Nissan and Honda (both smaller companies) have a much higher percentage. No wonder the yen is killing them, and whose fault is that? They are about to close a plant in California, they never opened one that is completely built and sitting empty in Mississippi, San Antonio is running at half capacity.

210delray

Yes, but take a look at the IIHS' individual ratings (not just the overall ratings) for the Hyundai Sonata and their other cars (not their SUVs) and you get a very mixed picture. In many cases, the ratings fall short or the car wasn't correct out of the gate and had to be recalled to fix the safety deficiencies.

Sonata side test

Genesis side test

The smaller cars, Elantra, Accent, and Rio, do even worse. The Soul though did earn a Top Safety Pick.

210delray

I am surprised that only 43% of the Toyotas sold in North America are actually made here

I am too -- do you have a link? But it is plausible since the Prius and 4Runner plus most Lexii are built in Japan.

210delray

Good post -- kudos! But you don't need active head restraints to get a Good rating from the IIHS. Lots of cars earn a Good without having the active feature, but I do know Toyota is going this route now to better their ratings.

Also, Toyota tried to improve the Camry's rear rating for cars built after March 2007, and did make a running change (without the active feature), but the redo was unsuccessful in terms of getting an improved rating.

Use this link and scroll down to the Camry.

explorerx4

if you can find a link to the monthly sales totals, there is a domestically (usa) manufactured number.

kdhspyder

Nippononly my friend, Accuracy Please. The facts are two clicks away right on Toyota.com

http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/document/October_2009_Sales_Chart.pdf

Through 10-09
Tot Sales... 1,449,000 units sold
Dom Prod.....738,000 units.............50.9%

C'mon...no more non-factual facts.

explorerx4

the 43% number may have been from a different time period, although i don't know that.

gagrice

Through 10-09
Tot Sales... 1,449,000 units sold
Dom Prod.....738,000 units.............50.9%

C'mon...no more non-factual facts.

HMMMM, the link you posted says 888,075 domestic or 61.3% are NA made. Just checking the facts to make sure they are accurate. :shades:

mcdawgg

Yes, thanks for the help and the facts! I still am amazed at the some of the "stuff" I read here.