Not many commuter cars of ANY ilk are on the road "running good with no major out of pocket costs" after 20 years, if they are actually driven.
No kidding, I've got 60k on my 07 Expedition and i seriously doubt it will still be on the road in 20 years, that equal 400-600k miles. No way that's happen w/o a complete overhaul.
As for Toyota, I see as of 2008 they spent more on R & D than any other company in the world, almost $9 billion. GM was around $8 billion and Ford just over $7billion. With that kind of money being spent I'd expect more competitive products in the pipeline. I'm curious how much R&D spending has changed this year for the auto industry.
No kidding, I've got 60k on my 07 Expedition and i seriously doubt it will still be on the road in 20 years, that equal 400-600k miles. No way that's happen w/o a complete overhaul.
I think the only way you're going to see 20 years out of a car without any major repairs is if it's a car you don't drive everyday, or maybe a car that you do a lot of gentle highway driving AND take good care of it.
My Intrepid had made it to 10 years and 150,000 miles without anything too horrible happening to it, up until it got totaled. It probably could have gone another 10 years. However, in recent years, it's only averaged maybe 5-6,000 miles per year, not driven every day, as I'd rotate cars, and it's not like it's had a rough life, except for that first year delivering pizzas, and a few parking lot brawls here and there, the last one of which, sadly, it lost.
However, I'm sure if I didn't quit delivering pizzas a year after I bought the car, I'm sure it would've been done in awhile ago. I think I put 30,000 miles on it in 11 months, so if I'd kept that rate up, I'd be up to around 330,000 miles by now!
Yeah, in my experience once a car gets around 200k they are just shot, whether than run good or not. My dad put 230k on a 92 CrownVic over 9 years. It held up well until about 180k. Then he nursed it for two years w/o a/c, oil burning, and shot suspension. Had to cut off the rear stabilizer bar as the brackets broke off the frame and the check engine light was on for the last 50k two as the repairs to fix it were expensive.
He replaced that with a '00 Taurus which he put 180k on it. The last 20k were pretty expensive with it needed a new radiator and several check engine lights from sensor issues. He traded in in on an 09 Accord Ex-l v6 which he almost has 30k on already w/o any issues so far.
I've never kept a car much more than 100k, by then they just start to feel old to me, with squeaks, and annoying little problems etc.
11/24/2009: Toyota and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration have announced that Toyota will recall approximately 110,000 Tundra pickup trucks from the 2000 to 2003 model years in 20 cold-weather states and the District of Columbia to fix a frame rust and corrosion problem that could cause the spare tire to fall away from the truck.
By your post, GM has way more big trucks than Toyota; yet GM's average fuel economy is not far behind Toyota. That means GM is more fuel efficient in the similar sized vehicles.
In face, if you compare the same type of vehicles (like compact car to compact car, mid size to mid size), GM is more fuel efficient than Toyota in many categories.
That means GM is more fuel efficient in the similar sized vehicles.
And the way they achieve it drives me crazy. Excessively tall gearing and transmissions that hate to downshift. When I owned a Suburban, I nearly had to floor it anytime I need to accelerate so it would down shift. It's not any better IMO with GM's new 6speed. The models I've driven still feel sluggish because you have push pedal nearly to the floor to down shift. No thanks, I'll give up 1 mpg or so to drive something that is more responsive and doesn't drive me nuts.
Despite all that, sound like I'd have a lot of life left in my Grand Marquis barring any major accidents.
I'd think so. The few people I've know to drive Crown Vics/Town Cars all got lots of miles out of them relatively trouble free. They are a great big city car. They probably can handle pot holes better than most wanna be crossovers.
Its the right thing to do. Not sure how they will reshape the floor pan on an existing vehicle. I guess a ball peen hammer will do it. :sick: The smart pedal over ride is the most significant addition.
1. The shape of the accelerator pedal will be reconfigured to address the risk of floor mat entrapment, even when an older-design all-weather floor mat or other inappropriate floor mat is improperly attached, or is placed on top of another floor mat. For the ES350, Camry, and Avalon models involved, the shape of the floor surface underneath will also be reconfigured to increase the space between the accelerator pedal and the floor. 2. Vehicles with any genuine Toyota or Lexus accessory all-weather floor mat will be provided with newly-designed replacement driver- and front passenger-side all-weather floor mats.
In addition, as a separate measure independent of the vehicle-based remedy, Toyota will install a brake override system onto the involved Camry, Avalon, and Lexus ES350, IS350 and IS250 models as an extra measure of confidence. This system cuts engine power in case of simultaneous application of both the accelerator and brake pedals.
Toyota is in the process of completing development of these actions and for the ES350, Camry, and Avalon will start notifying owners of the involved vehicles via first-class mail by the end of this year. The remedy process regarding the other five models will occur on a rolling schedule during 2010.
Hacking off part of the gas pedal sounds like redneck engineering to me, but the other fixes seem to be well thought out.
No kidding, I'd just go w/o the floor mat before I'd let them hack off part of the gas pedal. The brake interlock that cut's the throttle makes the most sense. VW's have had that for years.
I discovered that by accident with my '00 Jetta. I had driven through some deep water and I applied the brakes while my foot was on the gas to dry them, and the throttle was cut immediately, the engine would just cut out anytime the brake was pressed. I wonder if that goes all the way back to the Audi fiasco.
Consumer reports website has an interesting video on the unintended acceleration issue. They take a few different cars and floor them to 70mph or so and try to stop them. They would slow down if you didn't pump the brakes, if you pumped them more than once, you lost most of the braking power due to brake assist being from vacuum and gas engines don't produce vacuum at wide open throttle, thus no brakes. They used a Toyota Veracruz and after the 2 pump of the brakes with the gas pedal to the floor, no brakes and brake malfunction light came on. They did the same thing with a VW and as soon as the brakes where hit the engine cut out and the car stopped. So I can see how if the throttle is stuck WOT and you panic that bad thing can happen. CU advised to immediately put the car in neutral then stop and turn the engine off. Probably good advice. You certainly don't want to turn the key off and accidentally lock the steering column at 50+ mph, plus the cars with start/stop buttons don't immediately turn the engine off while driving.
Still no word on the estimated cost, but it will add to the pricetag that they will make replacement "reshaped" pedals available in the spring and all affected owners will be eligible to have a replacement pedal installed to replace the one that will be getting sawed off in the next few months.
It must be a comfort to owners to know that they will get a software reprogram that will give priority to the brake pedal in situations where both pedals are pressed at the same time. Let's hope the design of THAT one is well thought out though.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
She went and picked it up and I noticed 2 holes in floor mat drivers side and told her she was missing the post that hold the mats down. months later she got a recall notice ,but she figured 2 wait until her 5k oil change. Finally, she got her oil changed and they put 2 clips on mats and told her it wasn't the mats causing the problem.It could be the driver,or like the Audi deal they had years ago Wife thinks it's the computer who knows.She's happy I'm happy.
They would slow down if you didn't pump the brakes, if you pumped them more than once, you lost most of the braking power due to brake assist being from vacuum and gas engines don't produce vacuum at wide open throttle, thus no brakes.
Pumping brakes is intuitive with lots of people - just look at how many people don't understand ABS brakes (hey, wait a minute, they pump "more than once").
Think the NHTSA will be working on requiring automakers to "fix" this issue as well?
Pumping brakes is intuitive with lots of people - just look at how many people don't understand ABS brakes.
Yeah, no one is trained on what to do if your car decides to panic out of control.
As for the floor mats, I know it's possible. My brother had it happen to hip on a '05 or so Nissan Sentra Spec V. He was getting on the gas hard let off to shift and the engine just kept bumping off the rev limiter. He noticed the pedal was still on the floor after he stopped and the floor mat was laying over top holding it down. Having a manual trans makes things much easier to control I'd think.
Yes agreed..a temporary redneck engineering solution to satisfy the DC people.
Since I can see very well what the risks might or might not be....I'm doing nothing. The OEM driverside mat is due to be replaced anyway after 135,000 miles, it's very ratty. I'll take a new one thank you very much. Other than that nada.
No kidding, I'd just go w/o the floor mat before I'd let them hack off part of the gas pedal. The brake interlock that cut's the throttle makes the most sense. VW's have had that for years.
Why don't you just use only one correct floor mat and secure it with the hooks - that's all you need to do, that's all you have ever needed to do. - I am not getting any of these "modifications" done - no need to, and I am still using my original Toyota All-Weather mats. The only reason for all this is to totally idiot-proof the car so that you can not secure the mats, use cheap mats, and use 2, 3, 6, whatever number of mats you want, even though common sense and the instructions tell you otherwise. The next thing will be completely computer-controlled and driven cars to take the "idiot" completely out of the picture.
The haters - do your favorite brands have a brake override system? I bet most don't, which means they must be poorly engineered and total crap! Sorry, just a sarcastic remark, had to say it, I don't really think that.
I also noticed someone else that had a different brand that had mat interference with the pedals, just like the Ford and Mazda experiences I had over a decade ago. I went out and bought aftermarket floor mat clips right away to stop the mats from moving, because the cars did not have hooks for the mats. Fortunately, I did not get into an accident, but it scared me. I guess I should have gotten a lawyer and screamed about it on the internet.
The haters - do your favorite brands have a brake override system? I bet most don't, which means they must be poorly engineered and total crap! Sorry, just a sarcastic remark, had to say it, I don't really think that.
I think VW is the only one that does, probably due to Audi almost being completely done in the US after their debacle over unintended acceleration. I don't know if other german makes have the brake interlock system or not. Certainly not something I'd be worried about.
so VW does have one because of the Audi problems of yore. Maybe it's contraptions like this that lead to some of VW's famously known electrical snafu's.
I believe that BMW also has this 'brake override' in their vehicles, MB also? If I'm not mistaken Toyota was in the process of installing it in upcoming vehicles anyway. This will just accelerate ( yuck ) the process.
Watch though. There will absolutely some claims from a certain group of people that states that A) they had unintended acceleration due to unknown causes, not the mats they hit the brakes repeatedly C) the electronic brake override did not work D).1) they didn't think of shifting out of D into N ....2) they tried to shift to N but couldn't find it ....3) they did shift to N but it failed to disconnect the throttle from the wheels
After 2000 incidents, 16 death and 243 injuries, Toyota still insisted nothing wrong with their cars other than the people putting the floor mat wrong as recent as 11/4/09. A lot of consumers including myself wrote a lot of protest messages in every media available; US government stepped in strongly calling Toyota lying early this month. Finally Toyota gives in, issues a complete modification to the floor mat, gas pedal and the computer software to give braking overriding power over acceleration (something has been in many other cars for years).
This is a major win for the American consumers and major lesson to the arrogant Toyota which has been very successful in building a cult like followings. In the 1st half of their fiscal year, Toyota world wide sales declined 31%; lost 1.5 billion dollars; produced 3.1 million cars yet recalled 6 million cars; lost No.1 auto maker title only 1 year after claiming that title from GM. Toyota has always been known for boring style, poor handling and high price. But these shortcomings have been successfully over compensated by the perceived reliability. Now with this so called reliability myth busted, consumer will take a second look before buying a Toyota.
Here's the news outlines:
By KEN THOMAS, Associated Press Writer – 8 mins ago WASHINGTON – Toyota Motor Corp. said Wednesday it will replace accelerator pedals on about 4 million recalled vehicles in the United States because the pedals can get stuck in the floor mats, another blow to the reputation of the world's largest automaker.
Toyota said dealers will offer to shorten the length of the gas pedals by about 3/4 inch beginning in January, as a stopgap measure while the company develops replacement pedals for their vehicles. New pedals will be installed by dealers on a rolling basis beginning in April, and some vehicles will have brake override systems installed as a precaution.
Toyota declined to provide a cost estimate for the fix, but analysts said it would be extremely expensive because of the extensive repairs involved and the manufacturing of new pedals. Toyota also said it would provide newly designed replacement floor mats for the driver and front-passenger side.
In a separate action, Toyota announced Tuesday that it would recall 110,000 Tundra trucks from the 2000-03 model years to address excessive rust on the vehicle's frame.
A Massachusetts-based safety consultant who has investigated the Toyota cases, however, has found more than 2,000 incidents involving 16 deaths and 243 injuries potentially tied to the Toyota gas pedals.
In November, Toyota issued a statement saying NHTSA had confirmed "that no defect exists in vehicles in which the driver's floor mat is compatible with the vehicle and properly secured." But in a rare rebuke, NHTSA accused Toyota of releasing misleading information about the recall, saying removing the mats did not "correct the underlying defect." Toyota said it was not the company's intention to mislead anyone.
A lot of consumers including myself wrote a lot of protest messages in every media available; US government stepped in strongly calling Toyota lying early this month. Finally Toyota gives in, issues a complete modification to the floor mat, gas pedal and the computer software to give braking overriding power over acceleration (something has been in many other cars for years).
I'm glad you wrote in and got the Feds to fix....the mats and the gas pedals. Congrats.
The computer software addition, the 'smart pedals', had been in process for a while but it's good that your intervention got them to speed up the process. Nice work.
> the 'smart pedals', had been in process for a while
Since there is nothing wrong with the cars other than customers using the wrong mats (their fault), why would Toyo have been working on smart pedals all along.
Oddly this wasn't even mentioned at the beginning of the discussion when people discussed the possibility of runaway electronic control or problems with shifting to neutral...
Now all of a sudden, it's "been in the works" all along. Sounds like more smug alert material:
""Toyota spokesman Irv Miller said the company was "very, very confident that we have addressed this issue" with the new fix. Toyota has found "no reason to believe that there is a problem with the electronic control systems," he said."
However in the same AP article Toyota admits:
"Toyota also plans to install a brake override system on the Camry, Avalon and Lexus ES350, IS350 and IS250 models, Toyota and NHTSA said. The brake override system will ensure the vehicle will stop if the brake and the accelerator pedals are applied at the same time.
"In November, Toyota issued a statement saying NHTSA had confirmed "that no defect exists in vehicles in which the driver's floor mat is compatible with the vehicle and properly secured." But in a rare rebuke, NHTSA accused Toyota of releasing misleading information about the recall, saying removing the mats did not "correct the underlying defect." Toyota said it was not the company's intention to mislead anyone." --AP, Columbus Dispatch
houdini1 wrote: WOW !! With all this going against them they must really build a great car to have so many loyal followers. My hat is off to them !!
By the way, they are still #1. Turns out VW was padding their #s by including autos where VW was just a minority owner !!
People's perception trails the reality by about 10 years. The poor quality Toyota is making now will catch up on the consumers several years later.
VW and Porche signed agreement on 8/13/2009 to create a merged VW-Porshe group led by VW. So the new VW-Porshe is the new No. 1 auto maker. It's a null point to argue who's the majority or minority owner of the new VW-Porshe group. As a matter of fact, Porshe now holds 35% of VW; while VW holds 49.9% of Porshe. VW is the majority owner of the new company.
Times news: Tuesday, Nov. 10, 2009 VW overtakes Toyota as No. 1
Volkswagen has surpassed Toyota as the world's largest car manufacturer, according to figures in The Guardian newspaper.
Citing estimates by IHS Global Insight, VW has produced 4.4 million vehicles in the first nine months of the year. That's more than the 4 million made by Toyota, the newspaper said.
Ford was in third place with a total of 3.7 million units and General Motors dropped to fourth with a total of 3.6 million.
Wikipedia: On 13 August, Volkswagen Aktiengesellschaft’s Supervisory Board signed the agreement to create an integrated automotive group with Porsche led by Volkswagen AG. Volkswagen will initially take a 49.9 percent stake in Porsche AG by the end of 2009, and it will also see the family shareholders selling the automobile trading business of Porsche Holding Salzburg to Volkswagen.[24]
Yes, I will take a portion of the credit here, though probably very small portion. Thanks.
This is a free country and I experienced time and again that people's voice is heard. We all should appreciate that. Being shot at by the my own Chinese government on 6/4/1989 at Tiananmen Square, I can appreciate it even more.
The inclusion of 'smart interface' between the gas and the brake pedal is just good business and good auto design. It's a good redundant safety addition IMO. Watch every auto maker will soon have 'smart pedals' in their vehicles in the near future.
Why? Well if the Germans and Toyota have it - but GM and Ford and Honda don't have it - that leaves the latter open to being the new objects of all these claimants of unintended acceleration. Welcome to the United States of Litigation.
Sorry but you're just going to have to deal with dealing with Toyota well into the future. No matter how much you love to put it down there is a huge welspring of good experiences over the last 3 decades that continues to feed new sales.
What these issues do is reinforce the haters' attitudes. There are tens of millions of drivers on the roads with none of these experiences, myself included. Alleged isolated claims do nothing to contravene actual personal experiences. But you can keep hoping for a miracle. Carry on...
That is all old news and I stand by my statement that Toyota is still #1 for the reasons stated. VW threw in everything including Subaru and the kitchen sink...not just Porsche. It is well documented, but I am sure you know that.
By the way, how do they compare in the biggest market in the world and the one that most of us are interested in...the good 'ol U.S.A.?
Wow. I did not know you where at Tiananmen Square in 1989. I visited Tiananmen back in 2004. I saw quite a few GM cars and Volkswagens in Beiging back then. I am just curious to know why you dislike toyota so much? Do you work for a competing automaker? I have had a very positive experience with a 1990 Toyota Celica that I bought new and plan to keep for a long time unless it is stolen or totalled. My next car will be a 2010 Toyota Yaris. Granted I have no experience with a modern day Toyota. But 50 to 60 percent of my co-workers drive Toyotas and the only problems I know of was a check engine light on a 2009 Camry.
Well, if your main auto interests are in China, I assume you live there. If I lived there I would be interested too. But I live in the U.S. so I don't have that much interest in the China automobile market.
The only people who can afford cars here now must work for the government, so I would not be surprised if the U.S. falls way down on the scale in the future. See, not all "change" is good.
VW-Porshe is a real company and it's not VW who counts the Porshe sales; all the industry and press do that too. By their count, Toyota is No. 2.
US is not the biggest auto market anymore. It trails China by a wide margin this year. China is expected to sell 13 million cars this year; 15 million next. US is struggling with 9 million. In China, GM is No. 1 followed by VW. Toyota is almost non-existent and has a reputation of cheap and unsafe.
I don't hate Toyota. I'm a neutral car guy and I test drive every model of every make in the market before I choose my cars. Some how Toyota was never selected. I have no bias against Toyota. I respect their recent achievements in gaining market share. I just can not stand a company covering up their bad design. 10 year ago I saw the Sony service bulletin about the known problem of Sony DVD players not reading dual layer discs and clearly stated that do not give free repair unless customer complained heavily. That made me upset as well.
BTW, I think Toyota's reliability is good but not bullet proof. Take a look the reviews for Toyota Camry in the Yahoo Auto you'll see many of complaints about the transmission and other problems.
I don't trust Consumer Reports because it survey's its own subscribers. Imaging a Republican magazine survey their readers about which party is better; of course you know the result would be Republican. I trust JD Power's study more. Buick has been No. 1 in their dependability study for 2 years. Toyota is up there but not on top.
Well said, kdhspyder. I just don't get the hate - not good for you or anyone. I could go and post everything negative about someone's favorite make, but why?? Maybe I should - nah, not worth it. What goes around, comes around.
Most makes do not have the smart interface - you are 100%, soon they ALL will, and if they don't, they will be open to huge lawsuits and government forcing them to do it. And this will be at the expense of everyone (that's part of the what goes around comes around thing ).
And I could post articles after Nov. 10 saying that VW is NOT #1. Who cares, though, until someone figures out what #1 in sales really means, it is all just speculation.
Let's be thankful for our families, friends, country, etc. and be positive this Thanksgiving.
Watch every auto maker will soon have 'smart pedals' in their vehicles in the near future.
And they should. Especially if they feel the clearance between the accelerator and floor mat has to be a fraction of an inch. If I remember correctly, back when the accident that got the ball rolling on this recall, I suggested that Toyota should do exactly what they are now doing. Most of the Rah Rah crowd said it would never happen.
I wonder how adamant Toyota will be on upgrading the recalled vehicles. Will the owners have to sign a release if they choose not to have the changes made?
And this will be at the expense of everyone (that's part of the what goes around comes around thing
I have to pay for side airbag, ABS, ESC, tire monitors and a lot of other crap. What is one more device? If I had a choice of safety features, the smart peddle would be ahead of all the above that I am forced to buy.
Holy smoke, I've been saying the same thing for years about Consumer Reports. That's like asking the people at MacWorld magazine what they think of Microsoft.
Looks like your typical illegal immigrant family (per Bart Simpson) admiring their Chinese melamine plates that will soon be topped with turkey and corn.
Cargill Turkey Products received payments totaling $17,593,150 from 1995 through 2006. (link). Corn subsidies in United States totaled $56.2 billion from 1995-2006. (link)
Makes a few million accelerator pedal upgrades seem like small potatoes.
>accelerator pedal upgrades seem like small potatoes.
But there aren't any potatoes on the table. I was impressed with the turkey and corn facts, but I was let down with the divergent potato comment.
And by whom and where were the clothes made? Subsidy? Child labor?
The table is sans silverware. They need to stop by the omnipresent Walmart and pick up eating utensils and knives, unless they've already been banned by the government.
Comments
That is exactly right. See we agree once in a while.
No kidding, I've got 60k on my 07 Expedition and i seriously doubt it will still be on the road in 20 years, that equal 400-600k miles. No way that's happen w/o a complete overhaul.
As for Toyota, I see as of 2008 they spent more on R & D than any other company in the world, almost $9 billion. GM was around $8 billion and Ford just over $7billion. With that kind of money being spent I'd expect more competitive products in the pipeline. I'm curious how much R&D spending has changed this year for the auto industry.
I think the only way you're going to see 20 years out of a car without any major repairs is if it's a car you don't drive everyday, or maybe a car that you do a lot of gentle highway driving AND take good care of it.
My Intrepid had made it to 10 years and 150,000 miles without anything too horrible happening to it, up until it got totaled. It probably could have gone another 10 years. However, in recent years, it's only averaged maybe 5-6,000 miles per year, not driven every day, as I'd rotate cars, and it's not like it's had a rough life, except for that first year delivering pizzas, and a few parking lot brawls here and there, the last one of which, sadly, it lost.
However, I'm sure if I didn't quit delivering pizzas a year after I bought the car, I'm sure it would've been done in awhile ago. I think I put 30,000 miles on it in 11 months, so if I'd kept that rate up, I'd be up to around 330,000 miles by now!
He replaced that with a '00 Taurus which he put 180k on it. The last 20k were pretty expensive with it needed a new radiator and several check engine lights from sensor issues. He traded in in on an 09 Accord Ex-l v6 which he almost has 30k on already w/o any issues so far.
I've never kept a car much more than 100k, by then they just start to feel old to me, with squeaks, and annoying little problems etc.
In face, if you compare the same type of vehicles (like compact car to compact car, mid size to mid size), GM is more fuel efficient than Toyota in many categories.
And the way they achieve it drives me crazy. Excessively tall gearing and transmissions that hate to downshift. When I owned a Suburban, I nearly had to floor it anytime I need to accelerate so it would down shift. It's not any better IMO with GM's new 6speed. The models I've driven still feel sluggish because you have push pedal nearly to the floor to down shift. No thanks, I'll give up 1 mpg or so to drive something that is more responsive and doesn't drive me nuts.
IMO, nearly all cars do that now.
I'd think so. The few people I've know to drive Crown Vics/Town Cars all got lots of miles out of them relatively trouble free. They are a great big city car. They probably can handle pot holes better than most wanna be crossovers.
Bill
They plan to "reshape" the accelerator pedals and floor surface, replace the factory and accessory floormats, and retrofit a "smart pedal" system.
Hacking off part of the gas pedal sounds like redneck engineering to me, but the other fixes seem to be well thought out.
1. The shape of the accelerator pedal will be reconfigured to address the risk of floor mat entrapment, even when an older-design all-weather floor mat or other inappropriate floor mat is improperly attached, or is placed on top of another floor mat. For the ES350, Camry, and Avalon models involved, the shape of the floor surface underneath will also be reconfigured to increase the space between the accelerator pedal and the floor.
2. Vehicles with any genuine Toyota or Lexus accessory all-weather floor mat will be provided with newly-designed replacement driver- and front passenger-side all-weather floor mats.
In addition, as a separate measure independent of the vehicle-based remedy, Toyota will install a brake override system onto the involved Camry, Avalon, and Lexus ES350, IS350 and IS250 models as an extra measure of confidence. This system cuts engine power in case of simultaneous application of both the accelerator and brake pedals.
Toyota is in the process of completing development of these actions and for the ES350, Camry, and Avalon will start notifying owners of the involved vehicles via first-class mail by the end of this year. The remedy process regarding the other five models will occur on a rolling schedule during 2010.
No kidding, I'd just go w/o the floor mat before I'd let them hack off part of the gas pedal. The brake interlock that cut's the throttle makes the most sense. VW's have had that for years.
I discovered that by accident with my '00 Jetta. I had driven through some deep water and I applied the brakes while my foot was on the gas to dry them, and the throttle was cut immediately, the engine would just cut out anytime the brake was pressed. I wonder if that goes all the way back to the Audi fiasco.
Consumer reports website has an interesting video on the unintended acceleration issue. They take a few different cars and floor them to 70mph or so and try to stop them. They would slow down if you didn't pump the brakes, if you pumped them more than once, you lost most of the braking power due to brake assist being from vacuum and gas engines don't produce vacuum at wide open throttle, thus no brakes. They used a Toyota Veracruz and after the 2 pump of the brakes with the gas pedal to the floor, no brakes and brake malfunction light came on. They did the same thing with a VW and as soon as the brakes where hit the engine cut out and the car stopped. So I can see how if the throttle is stuck WOT and you panic that bad thing can happen. CU advised to immediately put the car in neutral then stop and turn the engine off. Probably good advice. You certainly don't want to turn the key off and accidentally lock the steering column at 50+ mph, plus the cars with start/stop buttons don't immediately turn the engine off while driving.
It must be a comfort to owners to know that they will get a software reprogram that will give priority to the brake pedal in situations where both pedals are pressed at the same time. Let's hope the design of THAT one is well thought out though.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Finally, she got her oil changed and they put 2 clips on mats and
told her it wasn't the mats causing the problem.It could be the driver,or like the Audi deal they had years ago Wife thinks it's the computer who knows.She's happy I'm happy.
Pumping brakes is intuitive with lots of people - just look at how many people don't understand ABS brakes (hey, wait a minute, they pump "more than once").
Think the NHTSA will be working on requiring automakers to "fix" this issue as well?
Yeah, no one is trained on what to do if your car decides to panic out of control.
As for the floor mats, I know it's possible. My brother had it happen to hip on a '05 or so Nissan Sentra Spec V. He was getting on the gas hard let off to shift and the engine just kept bumping off the rev limiter. He noticed the pedal was still on the floor after he stopped and the floor mat was laying over top holding it down. Having a manual trans makes things much easier to control I'd think.
The more correct statement is that GM has a few isolated trim levels that are more fuel efficient than Toyota in the car lineup.
Since I can see very well what the risks might or might not be....I'm doing nothing. The OEM driverside mat is due to be replaced anyway after 135,000 miles, it's very ratty. I'll take a new one thank you very much. Other than that nada.
No chance of a mat getting stuck under this one. The round portion mounts to the floor.
Why don't you just use only one correct floor mat and secure it with the hooks - that's all you need to do, that's all you have ever needed to do. - I am not getting any of these "modifications" done - no need to, and I am still using my original Toyota All-Weather mats. The only reason for all this is to totally idiot-proof the car so that you can not secure the mats, use cheap mats, and use 2, 3, 6, whatever number of mats you want, even though common sense and the instructions tell you otherwise. The next thing will be completely computer-controlled and driven cars to take the "idiot" completely out of the picture.
The haters - do your favorite brands have a brake override system? I bet most don't, which means they must be poorly engineered and total crap!
I also noticed someone else that had a different brand that had mat interference with the pedals, just like the Ford and Mazda experiences I had over a decade ago. I went out and bought aftermarket floor mat clips right away to stop the mats from moving, because the cars did not have hooks for the mats. Fortunately, I did not get into an accident, but it scared me. I guess I should have gotten a lawyer and screamed about it on the internet.
I think VW is the only one that does, probably due to Audi almost being completely done in the US after their debacle over unintended acceleration. I don't know if other german makes have the brake interlock system or not. Certainly not something I'd be worried about.
told her it wasn't the mats causing the problem.It could be the driver,
There is the "blame the driver" again. Audi did it. Now Toyota will do it just like on the sludge fiasco.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
You must be some sort of kook. Why would anyone take personal responsibility for their own safety ?
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Watch though. There will absolutely some claims from a certain group of people that states that
A) they had unintended acceleration due to unknown causes, not the mats
C) the electronic brake override did not work
D).1) they didn't think of shifting out of D into N
....2) they tried to shift to N but couldn't find it
....3) they did shift to N but it failed to disconnect the throttle from the wheels
It's anyone's fault but mine.
This is a major win for the American consumers and major lesson to the arrogant Toyota which has been very successful in building a cult like followings. In the 1st half of their fiscal year, Toyota world wide sales declined 31%; lost 1.5 billion dollars; produced 3.1 million cars yet recalled 6 million cars; lost No.1 auto maker title only 1 year after claiming that title from GM. Toyota has always been known for boring style, poor handling and high price. But these shortcomings have been successfully over compensated by the perceived reliability. Now with this so called reliability myth busted, consumer will take a second look before buying a Toyota.
Here's the news outlines:
By KEN THOMAS, Associated Press Writer – 8 mins ago
WASHINGTON – Toyota Motor Corp. said Wednesday it will replace accelerator pedals on about 4 million recalled vehicles in the United States because the pedals can get stuck in the floor mats, another blow to the reputation of the world's largest automaker.
Toyota said dealers will offer to shorten the length of the gas pedals by about 3/4 inch beginning in January, as a stopgap measure while the company develops replacement pedals for their vehicles. New pedals will be installed by dealers on a rolling basis beginning in April, and some vehicles will have brake override systems installed as a precaution.
Toyota declined to provide a cost estimate for the fix, but analysts said it would be extremely expensive because of the extensive repairs involved and the manufacturing of new pedals. Toyota also said it would provide newly designed replacement floor mats for the driver and front-passenger side.
In a separate action, Toyota announced Tuesday that it would recall 110,000 Tundra trucks from the 2000-03 model years to address excessive rust on the vehicle's frame.
A Massachusetts-based safety consultant who has investigated the Toyota cases, however, has found more than 2,000 incidents involving 16 deaths and 243 injuries potentially tied to the Toyota gas pedals.
In November, Toyota issued a statement saying NHTSA had confirmed "that no defect exists in vehicles in which the driver's floor mat is compatible with the vehicle and properly secured." But in a rare rebuke, NHTSA accused Toyota of releasing misleading information about the recall, saying removing the mats did not "correct the underlying defect." Toyota said it was not the company's intention to mislead anyone.
By the way, they are still #1. Turns out VW was padding their #s by including autos where VW was just a minority owner !!
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
VW's only #2! Whoo-hoo.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I'm glad you wrote in and got the Feds to fix....the mats and the gas pedals. Congrats.
The computer software addition, the 'smart pedals', had been in process for a while but it's good that your intervention got them to speed up the process. Nice work.
Since there is nothing wrong with the cars other than customers using the wrong mats (their fault), why would Toyo have been working on smart pedals all along.
Oddly this wasn't even mentioned at the beginning of the discussion when people discussed the possibility of runaway electronic control or problems with shifting to neutral...
Now all of a sudden, it's "been in the works" all along. Sounds like more smug alert material:
""Toyota spokesman Irv Miller said the company was "very, very confident that we have addressed this issue" with the new fix. Toyota has found "no reason to believe that there is a problem with the electronic control systems," he said."
However in the same AP article Toyota admits:
"Toyota also plans to install a brake override system on the Camry, Avalon and Lexus ES350, IS350 and IS250 models, Toyota and NHTSA said. The brake override system will ensure the vehicle will stop if the brake and the accelerator pedals are applied at the same time.
"In November, Toyota issued a statement saying NHTSA had confirmed "that no defect exists in vehicles in which the driver's floor mat is compatible with the vehicle and properly secured." But in a rare rebuke, NHTSA accused Toyota of releasing misleading information about the recall, saying removing the mats did not "correct the underlying defect." Toyota said it was not the company's intention to mislead anyone." --AP, Columbus Dispatch
Yeah, sure it wasn't their intent.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
WOW !! With all this going against them they must really build a great car to have so many loyal followers. My hat is off to them !!
By the way, they are still #1. Turns out VW was padding their #s by including autos where VW was just a minority owner !!
People's perception trails the reality by about 10 years. The poor quality Toyota is making now will catch up on the consumers several years later.
VW and Porche signed agreement on 8/13/2009 to create a merged VW-Porshe group led by VW. So the new VW-Porshe is the new No. 1 auto maker. It's a null point to argue who's the majority or minority owner of the new VW-Porshe group. As a matter of fact, Porshe now holds 35% of VW; while VW holds 49.9% of Porshe. VW is the majority owner of the new company.
Times news:
Tuesday, Nov. 10, 2009
VW overtakes Toyota as No. 1
Volkswagen has surpassed Toyota as the world's largest car manufacturer, according to figures in The Guardian newspaper.
Citing estimates by IHS Global Insight, VW has produced 4.4 million vehicles in the first nine months of the year. That's more than the 4 million made by Toyota, the newspaper said.
Ford was in third place with a total of 3.7 million units and General Motors dropped to fourth with a total of 3.6 million.
Wikipedia:
On 13 August, Volkswagen Aktiengesellschaft’s Supervisory Board signed the agreement to create an integrated automotive group with Porsche led by Volkswagen AG. Volkswagen will initially take a 49.9 percent stake in Porsche AG by the end of 2009, and it will also see the family shareholders selling the automobile trading business of Porsche Holding Salzburg to Volkswagen.[24]
This is a free country and I experienced time and again that people's voice is heard. We all should appreciate that. Being shot at by the my own Chinese government on 6/4/1989 at Tiananmen Square, I can appreciate it even more.
Why? Well if the Germans and Toyota have it - but GM and Ford and Honda don't have it - that leaves the latter open to being the new objects of all these claimants of unintended acceleration. Welcome to the United States of Litigation.
Sorry but you're just going to have to deal with dealing with Toyota well into the future. No matter how much you love to put it down there is a huge welspring of good experiences over the last 3 decades that continues to feed new sales.
What these issues do is reinforce the haters' attitudes. There are tens of millions of drivers on the roads with none of these experiences, myself included. Alleged isolated claims do nothing to contravene actual personal experiences. But you can keep hoping for a miracle. Carry on...
By the way, how do they compare in the biggest market in the world and the one that most of us are interested in...the good 'ol U.S.A.?
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I thought I read somewhere that China is expecting to sell more cars in 2009 than in the good ol' U.S.A.
I am just curious to know why you dislike toyota so much? Do you work for a competing automaker?
I have had a very positive experience with a 1990 Toyota Celica that I bought new and plan to keep for a long time unless it is stolen or totalled. My next car will be a 2010 Toyota Yaris. Granted I have no experience with a modern day Toyota. But 50 to 60 percent of my co-workers drive Toyotas and the only problems I know of was a check engine light on a 2009 Camry.
The only people who can afford cars here now must work for the government, so I would not be surprised if the U.S. falls way down on the scale in the future. See, not all "change" is good.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Actually it's Toyota that has a ~17% share of Subaru.
US is not the biggest auto market anymore. It trails China by a wide margin this year. China is expected to sell 13 million cars this year; 15 million next. US is struggling with 9 million. In China, GM is No. 1 followed by VW. Toyota is almost non-existent and has a reputation of cheap and unsafe.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
BTW, I think Toyota's reliability is good but not bullet proof. Take a look the reviews for Toyota Camry in the Yahoo Auto you'll see many of complaints about the transmission and other problems.
I don't trust Consumer Reports because it survey's its own subscribers. Imaging a Republican magazine survey their readers about which party is better; of course you know the result would be Republican. I trust JD Power's study more. Buick has been No. 1 in their dependability study for 2 years. Toyota is up there but not on top.
Most makes do not have the smart interface - you are 100%, soon they ALL will, and if they don't, they will be open to huge lawsuits and government forcing them to do it. And this will be at the expense of everyone (that's part of the what goes around comes around thing
And I could post articles after Nov. 10 saying that VW is NOT #1. Who cares, though, until someone figures out what #1 in sales really means, it is all just speculation.
Let's be thankful for our families, friends, country, etc. and be positive this Thanksgiving.
And they should. Especially if they feel the clearance between the accelerator and floor mat has to be a fraction of an inch. If I remember correctly, back when the accident that got the ball rolling on this recall, I suggested that Toyota should do exactly what they are now doing. Most of the Rah Rah crowd said it would never happen.
I wonder how adamant Toyota will be on upgrading the recalled vehicles. Will the owners have to sign a release if they choose not to have the changes made?
I have to pay for side airbag, ABS, ESC, tire monitors and a lot of other crap. What is one more device? If I had a choice of safety features, the smart peddle would be ahead of all the above that I am forced to buy.
And a very Happy Thanksgiving to you as well.
Looks like your typical illegal immigrant family (per Bart Simpson) admiring their Chinese melamine plates that will soon be topped with turkey and corn.
Cargill Turkey Products received payments totaling $17,593,150 from 1995 through 2006. (link). Corn subsidies in United States totaled $56.2 billion from 1995-2006. (link)
Makes a few million accelerator pedal upgrades seem like small potatoes.
Have a good one!
But there aren't any potatoes on the table. I was impressed with the turkey and corn facts, but I was let down with the divergent potato comment.
And by whom and where were the clothes made? Subsidy? Child labor?
The table is sans silverware. They need to stop by the omnipresent Walmart and pick up eating utensils and knives, unless they've already been banned by the government.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,