Toyota on the mend?

210delray

Speaking of Tiger's Escalade, I just looked at the photos taken by TMZ. The damage is confined to the right front, outboard of the frame rail. The rail itself appears to be ramrod straight, but the bumper cover, headlight, and fender were pretty much destroyed, as well as at least part of the right front suspension. The hood was buckled somewhat on the right also. Probably very expensive to repair, but I can see why the airbags didn't inflate.

gagrice

Probably very expensive to repair, but I can see why the airbags didn't inflate.

It seems more excuses are made for non deploying air bags than should be. Hopefully by staying away from highly congested cities like NYC and LA I can avoid needing them. I don't think we spent more than 500 miles on the Interstate highway system in our 5700 mile trip to Indiana last month. We avoided all the large cities, Except Las Vegas Sunday afternoon. Never slowed below 65 MPH through LV on Interstate 15. There are a lot of beautiful empty state roads across America. They are the most pleasant to travel on. Most of the time we could tell where we were with the Sequoia NAV.

210delray

It's not an excuse. Tiger reportedly wasn't injured at all from the crash; therefore why would he need airbags? His wife apparently roughed him up before the crash.

I completely agree with taking the back roads. We mainly used US Routes 395, 6, 50, and 56 (with some loops off these highways on state routes) on our cross-country trip from LA to Virginia 4 years ago. Beautiful and in Nevada especially, nearly deserted.

gagrice

Tiger says no. I give him the benefit. And leave him alone. He never did anything to me but give pleasure watching him play a game I have never played.

Toyota on the other hand has given me plenty of ammunition over 45 years of ownership. I have a right to bad mouth them as an owner.

stever

I said just about the same thing to a friend about 30 minutes ago about Woods.

Not to mention, he wasn't even driving a Toyota.

gagrice

If GM had given me millions to advertise for them I would be driving an Escalade. It was very close when I ended up with this Sequoia. Heck if Toyota would just once do right by me I would quit bad mouthing them. Toyota comes close just not quite what I would consider a great vehicle.

stever

I haven't had much experience with Toyotas since '99 when I sold my '82 Tercel. It served me well. But I could see myself driving a Prius or Matrix or xD easily.

One more month and we can rename this discussion (or close it and start a new one), called "Toyota Up Again in 2010".

Guess it will need a question mark at the end.

gagrice

"Toyota Up Again in 2010".

Not a chance. They have to hit bottom before they realize what a mess they have made. I think the Smart Pedal will take a BIG chunk of the $4.9 billion they have set aside for warranty work. Does that mean when the engine blows on your new Prius they will not have any money to fix it? :shades:

gagrice

You have to go to a Pontiac thread to bash them. We are excoriating Toyota on this one. You might try this link. Though Pontiacs rarely have problems like Toyota.

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f1ccfba/0#MSG0

xlu

So, you include Mazda in Ford's numbers, 13% Ford owned, but you don't include Subaru in Toyota's number, 17% owned?

This is the direct quote from IIHS news release: "Subaru is the only manufacturer with a winner in all 4 vehicle classes in which it competes. This automaker earns 5 awards for 2010. Ford and subsidiary Volvo have 6 winners, and Volkswagen/Audi has 5. Chrysler earns 4 awards, continuing a recent trend of improving the crashworthiness of its vehicles."

First off, it's Volvo, not Mazda. Secondly it was IIHS who counted Ford and Volvo together, not me.

stever

That was a spammer from India you replied to. The gratuitous link to some home security site was the giveaway.

They tend to hit the more active discussions here once or twice before moving on to the next site.

gagrice

You were right on that. I just thought it was a newbie lost in the labyrinth. Maybe he works in the factory that built my Sequoia NAV.

iluvmysephia1

did you guys go through Phoenix on your last road trip? Because if you saw a sign in Casa Grande listing new houses for what was it, $99,000, or something like that, you were only about 40 miles south of Phoenix.

larsb

Saw one news report that said the airbags in an Escalade do not deploy below 33 miles per hour.

gagrice

We stayed two nights with my sister in Casa Grande. She lives in a new subdivision where you can buy a beautiful 1800 sq ft home with a water park for about $119K. We are thinking of getting one as an investment. You cannot buy a lot and put a shovel in the ground here for $119k Permits alone now are $45k.

We avoid Phoenix if at all possible. Casa Grande has all the shopping you could want. You would think they would have a Toyota dealer, nada. You can get a Ford, GM or Chrysler product in Casa Grande but none of the Japanese or German makes. It probably reflects the age demographics. It has retirement community written all over it.

berri

I took a look at the pedals on my Camry today. I've got the optional Toyota carpeted mats and a rubbermaid one over it and there still is a decent amount of space between the bottom of the pedal and the top of the mats. Count me as still suspicious of the "mat" theory. I do think the recall for brakes overriding the accelerator makes sense, but I don't think they need to chop off part of my gas pedal, its not that big to begin with.

kdhspyder

YTD Sales 2009

Corolla..... 262,654 ... vs '08 ... 328,878
Accord.... 261,818 ... vs '08 .... 350,441

IMO Edmunds will again find that in Nov the Camry leads the F150 in sales..

F-Series ... 30,494* ( Incl all F-Series )
Camry....... 27,385

imidazol97

Did you push the gas pedal downward to see if it would swedge against an extra layer of mat and then not be able to move back to idle?

berri

Really, there is plenty of clearance in all positions. I think you'd have to put a pretty bulky and hefty pair of floor mats in there to cause a problem. or maybe ball or wedge them up with your feet. The Camry mat is latched in place and the Rubbermaid adheres well to it and stays in place. I'm wondering it Toyota lops off a hunk of the already small pedal whether it might become uncomfortable to drive the car? I'm not in to pushing down a tiny bumper car pedal while driving any distance.

kdhspyder

Interesting info on this subject has been discovered by engineers and afficionado's over at PC. The 2010 Prius seemingly already has the 'smart pedal' incorporated into the vehicle. Thus it's not included in the Recall program.

A driver who also posts here took a 2010 down a 7% incline at 85+ mph, kept the GO pedal floored ( as if it were trapped ) and hit the brakes....the vehicle slowed...well as slow as it was going to go as it went down a 7% grade.

210delray

I've read that 3/4 in. of the gas pedal will be lopped off. But this is an interim fix, and a new pedal assembly will be developed for installation in early 2010. The replacement pedal will be free.

I mentioned before that the pedal in my 2004 Camry is about an inch higher off the floor compared to the 2010 Camry.

houdini1

Are you comparing the Corolla to the Accord? Or did you mean Camry?

kdhspyder

Corolla to the Accord....it's not a typo...

I did a separate comparo of only the midsizers over at the Midsizers 2.0 thread...here

houdini1

Well if you are including the Camry and Corolla, but just the Accord, where does the Civic fit in?

I am just trying to figure out what the message is.

mcdawgg

Well, just look at the pictures put out by everyone - if an unsecured mat moves around enough, the pedal can get stuck down by some mats, especially All-weather mats. Again, this is ONLY if you don't use the hooks. Hope that clears up your suspicions. That's why they are decreasing the pedal size - because if you don't secure the mat or use multiple mats, then the pedal can get stuck down. As a further measure, they are putting in the smart pedal, which all other makes will have soon, I bet. By doing all of this, they are coming as close as possible to making the cars dummy-proof!!

kdhspyder

For the first time in like forever the Corolla is not only going to crush the Civic, which isn't even in the picture anymore, but it's also about to pass the Accord for the No 2 auto in the US.

The Camry is way out in front but now the Corolla is about to be No 2. What is going on with Honda's autos?

berri

What is going on with Honda's autos?

Maybe overpriced and overstyled? I just don't see an Accord being worth a grand or more over a Camry, not to mention Toyota 0% financing as well. Heck, Accord's are starting to find themselves in the Hertz fleets as well, so Honda may as well step it up in the consumer showrooms!

houdini1

OK, now I get it. It seems to me that both Honda and Acura have lost their way in the last few years. Still good cars, but certainly nothing really interesting or eye catching. If I was in the market for a small car I think I would look to Kia or Hyundai.

gagrice

By doing all of this, they are coming as close as possible to making the cars dummy-proof!!

They need to add a device that jams the cell phone signal while the car is moving. So talking and texting is impossible. I was nearly run into a ditch by a guy passing me while Texting. I spotted him driving erratic on I8 at about 75 MPH when he passed me just over the line into my lane. He is fortunate my Sequoia is not equipped with a rocket launcher and stinger missile.

fintail

If any company is going to make dummy-proof cars....it will be Toyota. Self-parking, special gas pedals...what's next? Cars for people who hate driving.

I'd like to see an eating/drinking/smoking jammer too :shades:

iluvmysephia1

Casa Grande is supposed to be growing quickly. When my wife and I traveled down to Willcox in July '06 to interview for my current job we needed to come back through Phoenix on our way back to Pocatello, ID. Needed to take care of some Respiratory licensing business. First, though, we needed to stop and sleep and rest in Casa Grande. The hotel clerk told us that Casa Grande was going to eventually grow to 1,500,000 people. That's one million and a half people.

I asked her how many people live here now(July '06)? She said 40,000! Now that's growth! It may very well be a retirement community in progressual growth.

I find it hard to believe, though, one and a half mil. Yeah, I bought my '08 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS in Avondale, a western burb of Phoenix. But the wife and I don't spend much time there-not only is Tucson less than half the distance that Phoenix is away from us but Tucson has everything we might ever need for shopping and entertainment and even Mitsubishi dealers.

Sure would love to hear what is going to happen as far as the black box out of the Lexus sedan in SD. If I don't find out more I'll just have to assume that Toyota is on the decline as usual in late 2009.

gagrice

Pinal county is the fastest growing in the Nation. Most job growth as well. Still no Toyota dealer. Someone is missing a good bet.

http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2009/moneymag/0906/gallery.bplive_jobgrowth.money- mag/

mcdawgg

They need to add a device that jams the cell phone signal while the car is moving. So talking and texting is impossible.

Yes, I agree with you on that 100%.

imidazol97

>Sure would love to hear what is going to happen as far as the black box out of the Lexus sedan in SD.

It's really "strange" there are no reports about what was found, or not found, in the black box information. I "wonder" why there are no reports forthcoming? Errr, let me guess.

gagrice

Kind of like Tiger. You keep quiet and the speculation runs rampant. The Sheriff's operation in Santee is pretty much based on making money from tickets. So they would probably be open to selling the black box to Lexus. Times are tough for local governments. Though Santee seems to be doing well. They sold off one of the two elementary schools and put up trailers to jam the kids into the one remaining school. Yeah they would sell their souls to the devil, why not the black box to Toyota? :sick:

kenym

I didn't know cars had black boxes, I thought only air planes had them :confuse:

stever

Here's a site about black boxes (aka event data recorders) in cars, with a couple of links with incomplete lists of what cars have them. (motorists.org)

gagrice

Many vehicles have had them for several years. So far no word on the data on the Saylor crash EDR. It could be tied up in a legal battle. I think CA has a law that says only the owner can ask for the data. That would be the guilty Lexus dealer.

The report also indicated that the car's event data recorder was intact in the car with only minor fire damage, but attempts to retrieve its data have not been made.

210delray

No doubt it's tied up in a legal battle. I can't imagine the family of those killed won't be suing for big bucks, and rightly so.

larsb

IMHO:

They'll get something, but not as much as you might think.

There was a lot of questions about "driver error" in this accident. A good lawyer will make that go a long way.

Shifting to neutral. Powering off the car. Shifting to Park. Sideswiping the concrete barrier to slow the car down.

I know, it was a panic situation, etc etc. That has been discussed. But in a court of law, a good lawyer is going to make some great points to the judge or jury.

gagrice

Sideswiping the concrete barrier to slow the car down.

There is only a gravel median. If he went into that at 120 MPH he would probably end up on the wrong side of the freeway flipping end over end. I am sure the lawyers for the defense will try to blame it on the driver. However that is a slippery slope accusing a dead man. The jury would look unfavorably on such a weak defense. Especially in light of all the other accidents as a result of runaway acceleration. ToyLex would be best advised to offering the family a generous cash settlement and getting it behind them. There is no defense for Lexus of El Cajon using the wrong floor mat after the recall. That was gross stupidity on someone's part.

larsb

Well, we already know the floormat had nothing to do with the accident.

stever

How To Stop a Runaway Vehicle

Scraping a Jersey barrier isn't one of the recommendations; wonder if that's just in movies.

gagrice

Well, we already know the floormat had nothing to do with the accident.

We do? Not according to Toyota and the NHTSA report. The report claims the floor mat was fused to the accelerator in the fire. Leading investigators to believe it was the culprit. We also know the brakes are not adequate to over ride the power of the engine at high speed. They were smoking according to witnesses. The question in my mind that the glib answer from Toyota's Lyon has not been answered is: Why didn't he put the car in neutral? And is it possible at 120 MPH with WOT? Remember he just picked up the car as a loaner while his Lexus was being serviced. So his may have been a different model with different shifter and regular key ignition. He was likely not familiar with the ES350 loaner.

larsb

Did you miss my series of posts earlier where I logically explained that there was no POSSIBLE way a full-grown man with death staring him in the face and a wife in the passenger seat could have NOT been able to dislodge a "stuck" floormat?

berri

I think in light of the recent Supreme Court decision not to entertain Ford's appeal of an $80M+ decision against them on the Explorer fiasco, Toyota will probably settle this thing out of court. Ford had a mixed record in appealing Explorer cases, but those appeals just kept the whole Explorer mess in the news. Not sure of it was worth it really.

elias

Why do you know that the brakes can't overpower the engine at high speed?

My understanding is that the braking-power of a yugo greatly exceeds wheel-horsepower of a corvette at any speed, any rpm. So if you put a yugos brakes on an automatic corvette, floored both accelerator and brake with max-pressure (two feet) while stomping the brake, the car should not move. Or if it's already moving, it should slow down considerably, all the way to a stop. Am I wrong about that?

My understanding is that the gearshift function fails for these unfortunate Toyota/Lexi drivers, as well as ignition. It seems unlikely that all the drivers for the 200 injuries/fatalities and the 2000 'confirmed' cases so far would have each omitted each of the key steps of:
- stomp on brake with maximum pressure
- shift to neutral
- turn off ignition

mcdawgg

You'd think, but that is still speculation - unless you have data, we don't know for sure. It is easy to think what we would have done, or what should have been done, but that's armchair quarterbacking. The poor guy probably never realized it was stuck by the mat, and they found the mat fused to the pedal (fused by the fire).

stever

There's some speculation that the Lexus driver may have pumped the brakes.

"Power brakes rely on engine vacuum to provide additional brake pressure. At full throttle, the engine doesn’t generate any vacuum. So as soon as we removed and reapplied pressure to the brake pedal, the power assist disappeared and stopping the car became hopeless."

How to stop a runaway car: Don’t pump the brakes (Consumer Reports)

larsb

I agree on the "poor guy" sentiment. An awful tragedy.

But on your comment, "...probably never realized it was stuck by the mat..." I have to STRONGLY disagree.

The FIRST thing I would do if I found my car accelerating out of control, as if the pedal were pressed all the way to the floor, is to LOOK AT THE PEDAL AND SEE IF SOMETHING WAS HOLDING IT ALL THE WAY DOWN !!! (the all caps is for emphasis, not for yelling )

I think I can safely say that 99% of the people who had that problem would do the same thing.

I can't imagine a scenario where someone would be in that situation and not check to see if there was something holding the pedal down.

That being said, as I stated in a previous post: There is no way a fully grown, healthy male police officer (CHP) would not have been able to physically pull the floormat off the pedal. Not even a discussion.

If the options are "Die or pull it up" - 100% of men in that situation could get it pulled loose.