There's some speculation that the Lexus driver may have pumped the brakes.
Exactly, if you have a runaway engine with vacuum assist; the brakes will only have a pump or two of braking power then you essentially have none. Most passenger cars probably would have smoking brakes in a panic stop from speeds over 100mph. The engine stuck at full throttle will only add to the energy that must be absorbed.
Even without loosing vacuum, braking power doesn't last long on a passenger car. I'd guess a typical brake system can only handle one or two max stop from 100+ w/o needing time to cool down. I've seen many stock cars (miatas, mustangs, camaros etc) that have lost brakes just after a few laps on a road course due to the brakes getting to hot.
The FIRST thing I would do if I found my car accelerating out of control, as if the pedal were pressed all the way to the floor, is to LOOK AT THE PEDAL AND SEE IF SOMETHING WAS HOLDING IT ALL THE WAY DOWN !!! (the all caps is for emphasis, not for yelling )
I tend to agree. I'd probably put it in neutral first, your not going to harm any modern engine as they all have rev limiters. My 07 Expedition is limited to 3k rpm when in park or neutral. Depending on the situation, I think it could be difficult to reach the gas pedal with my hand while trying to control a car that is relatively quick like an ES350. If your going 40 or 50 when the throttle is stuck to the floor, in probably 10 seconds your going over 100 and in a congested area that would be very dangerous. I think the safest thing to do is to put it in neutral and pull off to the side of the road.
IN A PERFECT WORLD (not yelling, just for emphasis), there wouldn't be any other traffic, the road would be straight and level, the passengers would not be panicking. you could apply the brakes in a normal manner and when they did not slow the car, apply full pressure and have the car stop. don't forget, when you shift into neutral, it will actually go out of gear. the same software that prevents the engine from being over revved when not in gear, could also prevent a shift out of gear at high rpm's.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
In the Consumer Reports video with the Toyota Venza, the driver was easily able to shift into neutral at full throttle and thereby stop the car easily. Also, when keeping the car in drive and at full throttle, stomping once on the brakes brought the car down to a much lower speed (but not to a full stop).
I don't think if my throttle stuck at high speed, I'd look down at the gas pedal to see what was going on. I'd just throw it into neutral (my 2 automatics have "straight through" shifters) and on the manual transmission truck, I'd step on the clutch and brakes.
The FIRST thing I would do if I found my car accelerating out of control, as if the pedal were pressed all the way to the floor, is to LOOK AT THE PEDAL AND SEE IF SOMETHING WAS HOLDING IT ALL THE WAY DOWN !!! (the all caps is for emphasis, not for yelling )
Still speculation.
I would do that too, and most people on this forum would too. BUT, most here are the exception. MOST people probably would not, and to keep speculating that the guy would know or think to pull it off the pedal is not realistic, cop or not. Until you have been in a situation like this, and I hope no one ever is, you never know how you will react. Maybe the guy did not have this floor mat training, maybe he was not there that day, maybe he wasn't the brightest bulb, maybe he just froze, who knows! We do have a few facts, and one is that the mat was melted to the pedal, and we know that it cannot contact the pedal unless it was unsecured, and we know that the wrong mat was unsecured, and these mats if unsecured can cause a pedal to get stuck down, and the fire welded it to the pedal. If the mat was secured, it would not have been in contact with the pedal. Sure seems to me that the mat being fused to the pedal was the problem, and obviously the poor guy did not move it back. The idiot(s) at that Lexus dealership are to blame. The survivors should own that place! same software that prevents the engine from being over revved when not in gear, could also prevent a shift out of gear at high rpm's.
That's what some people hope say, but CR did a test where they shifted to neutral with no problem at full throttle.
I agree that it is all speculation. I just can't imagine the driver didn't try to shift to neutral and something prevented that electronic shift. I just can't imagine the driver didn't slam on the brakes hard as soon as the car was accelerating with a mind of its own. I just can't imagine the driver didn't try pushing the "ON" button to stop the motor.
And someone is going to pay because there had to be more than one thing horribly wrong whether the mat were the cause of the acceleration or another unpublicized factor in the engine control and body control computers were the causes of the acceleration.
The idiot(s) at that Lexus dealership are to blame. The survivors should own that place!
I totally agree. Whether it was a yard boy or the owner of the company. They should have known there was an issue. And rubber floor mats in San Diego are ridiculous to start with. Probably why they did not have the correct mat in stock. It has only rained once in the last 7 months.
. The idiot(s) at that Lexus dealership are to blame. The survivors should own that place!
Oh, please.
I have already shown how it is VERY UNLIKELY, almost impossible, to imagine a scenario that the floormat caused the accident, so how could they have been at fault?
If anything, the cause of this was a computer fault which locked the throttle open.
'Yota might be at fault, but not the dealership. There are no drive-by-wire engineers working at the dealerships.
the Lexus driver might not have considered that the problem was with the mat. And I wouldn't assume that it would have been that easy to reach down and clear such a sticking problem if he did start thinking the mat was causing a problem...at higher speeds especially.
I just don't undersrtand why the officer didn't put the sedan in neutral and/or try to slow the car down in some manner.
I have already shown how it is VERY UNLIKELY, almost impossible, to imagine a scenario that the floormat caused the accident, so how could they have been at fault?
I agree if the black box (EDR) were to show a problem in the control computer, Toyota will be in deep doo doo. The NHTSA report vaguely implicated the floor mat. It also slammed the keyless ignition as not being consumer friendly in a panic situation. The dealer still has fault to share in light of the previous recall. They did not install the correct floor mats, into the hooks that would keep it from sliding forward and jamming the accelerator. Lexus of El Cajon is not off the hook by a long shot.
This is my feeling as well. Of course every word on these various sites is pure speculation because none of us was there and none of us has any real data to go by.
My speculation: Typical highway driving speeds would be 65-75-85 mph. At that point nothing would seem amiss. When however the speed got up over 85 mph then I'm speculating that the officer probably sensed something was not right. He'd probably let off the pedal as we all would. When the vehicle didn't slow down right away he'd touch the brakes. Nothing. The speed is approaching 90-95 mph. He hits the brakes hard or pumps them which is the wrong action to take. Nothing. Now the speed is approaching 100 mph and he's concerned with the safety of the passengers and every other driver around him so his eyes are glued to the road and traffic as the speed gets over 100 mph going faster yet. Now try to reach down and grab the thick All Weather mats while holding the wheel and going 100+ mph. One's eyesight drops below the level of the dash so the driver would be flying down the freeway at 100+ mph driving blind while trying to dislodge the mat.
But if his left foot is braced on the mat for balance he's pushing forward and down with his leg while his hand is attempting to pull it backward and up....all while driving blind at 100+ mph.
Why not shift to Neutral? We won't know that answer. It would have solved everything.
Actually, the owner of the black box is the insurance company. Once they pay out a claim, they own the car and all the information in it. They have been using this information to determine driver speed, actions, etc. for quite some time without the driver knowing. Their actions have been the subject of court actions, but since they insure the car and make a pay out (in case of a total write off), they own the black box and all the stored information. The only way to thwart them is to find out where it is and in case of a severe accident, remove it if you are able. The police are also using the information in their accident investigations.
I've had floormat cause accelerator (or braking) problem on almost every car I've ever owned, especially the ones that didn't have little pegs/clips/locks to lock the floormats in place. even with the cars that "lock" the floormat to the floor, they can sometimes break loose and end up under (or over) the accelerator. also they can end up stuck under the brake-pedal, which can be quite dangerous too. The very first floormat put in the first car probably got stuck similarly. It is a very common occurrence as far as I know! In toyotas, this common occurence has exposed what I consider a "catastrophic bug" resulting in a fatality/casualty count of 200 so far - and 2000 confirmed cases of 'unwanted acceleration' where nobody was injured.
Toyota's recall of 3.8 million vehicles to replace gas pedals, reshape the floor pan and install smart pedals (a system that cuts engine power when both brake and accelerator pedals are applied simultaneously) presents more questions than answers. ● Why doesn't Toyota's recall cover the millions of vehicles made before 2005 that were the subject of six government (NHTSA) unintended acceleration investigations and defect petitions since 2003? ● Why don't all 3.8 million vehicles in the recall get smart pedals? ● If unintended acceleration is caused by floor mats getting trapped under the gas pedal, how does Toyota explain unintended acceleration in vehicles without floor mats? ● Since Toyota recalled the Lexus LS200 for floor mat interference in Britain in September 2000, why did it take so long to recall in the US? ● What's the difference in gas pedal design between a recalled 2005 and a non-recalled 2004 Camry? Toyota should install smart pedals (brake override system) in everyone of the 3.8 million vehicles and all vehicles made since 1997 with drive by wire systems (electronic connections between gas pedal and throttle) because floor mat interference is not the root cause of unintended acceleration incidents. Toyota and NHTSA should admit that they don't know the cause of all unintended acceleration incidents and treat the problem by using the vehicle's computer to back off on engine power when both the brakes and throttle are applied. NHTSA should issue a Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard requiring smart pedals in all new vehicles.
What's the difference in gas pedal design between a recalled 2005 and a non-recalled 2004 Camry?
If this is quoted correctly, then Clarence is wrong. There is no difference between the 2004 and 05 Camry's gas pedal -- I should know, because I have both. The 2005-06 Camrys are not being recalled. It was the 2007 model that received the redesign.
This is the same Clarence Ditlow who went all hysterical over the Audi 5000 "sudden acceleration" issue, yet Audi was ultimately cleared.
As I've said before, I'm not worried about the drive-by-wire pedals in my Camry. What concerns me is whether the guy in the next lane is high, pulled an all-nighter, or just had a big argument with his wife!
I've had floormat cause accelerator (or braking) problem on almost every car I've ever owned, especially the ones that didn't have little pegs/clips/locks to lock the floormats in place. even with the cars that "lock" the floormat to the floor, they can sometimes break loose and end up under (or over) the accelerator. also they can end up stuck under the brake-pedal, which can be quite dangerous too.
Wow, on all of the Toyotas I have had that had the hooks to hold the mats, the mats have NEVER moved and interfered with the pedals - never, and I am speaking from 300,000 miles experience. Also, the hooks have never broken either. I also have 2007 and 2010 Camrys, same thing, they never move.
Sounds like an ambulance chaser to me and 210delray - I agree with 210delray, and we actually own the cars.
this was a case where the Lexus sedan had both it's own mat and a mat from a Toyota SUV put on top of the sedan's regular mat. Unless, if anyone knows or has heard about this, the sedan's regular mat was missing and the wrong SUV mat was the only one in the car.
At any rate, the mat was the wrong one for that vehicle and it was not tied down properly. The SD Lexus dealer is gonna be taking the heat here IMO.
No, I don't feel that this should cause an outright freakout feeling about the safety of Toyota rigs. OTOH-Toyota needs to do the work they've talked about doing and yes, it sounds like they really need to put that smart pedal in to fix this problem for the future. Like ASAP.
And hopefully owners of these vehicles Toyota has detailed in the press releases have ditched or at least stored away their driver's mats and are not using them in the meantime. Ignoring this problem as a Toyota/Lexus vehicle owner won't make it go away any more than Toyota Motors ignoring the problem. Right?
In the actual recall letter to owners, Toyota strongly recommends removing the driver floor mat for the time being. However, they realize not all owners will want to do this, and state in that case, that the driver floor mat can be left in, as long as it's the proper floor mat for the car, is installed correctly (not upside down), is properly secured with the hooks, and no other mat is stacked on top of the original mat. That's the option my son in NYC is taking with his '06 Prius.
McDawgg has a good point also; I've racked up over 220,000 combined miles in my former and current Camrys, and my mats have never moved, and the retention hooks have never broken.
With regard to the San Diego crash, I've always understood that an incorrect all-weather mat (from a Lexus RX) was stacked on top of the original carpeted mat, silly because as Gagrice and old song says, "it never rains in Southern California."
With my 2005 Prius that's what I'm doing as well...nothing. There is no way that the normal carpetted floormat can come in contact with the pedal.
Another vote here based on miles and years. Since Jan 1 2000 which will be 10 yrs at the end of this month I've put 350,000 miles on two Camry's and a Prius. My wife has added 150,000 miles on an MR2, Highlander and Solara. Never once in half a million miles using six vehicles has any mat ever come loose off the hooks; never once has any mat ever come anywhere near the gas pedal; never once has any engine seemed to surge out of control.
This is a huge non-issue in our personal experiences over 10 full years of driving.
McDawgg has a good point also; I've racked up over 220,000 combined miles in my former and current Camrys, and my mats have never moved, and the retention hooks have never broken.
Another vote here based on miles and years. Since Jan 1 2000 which will be 10 yrs at the end of this month I've put 350,000 miles on two Camry's and a Prius. My wife has added 150,000 miles on an MR2, Highlander and Solara. Never once in half a million miles using six vehicles has any mat ever come loose off the hooks; never once has any mat ever come anywhere near the gas pedal; never once has any engine seemed to surge out of control.
And I bet that almost everyone else in the country has similar experiences to the three of ours, which totals about a million miles between the 3 of us.
In fact, even without the hooks, the very sharp backing makes it almost impossible to move without lifting them up.
Unless someone can produce some real evidence that it is something other than the mats, I am also doing nothing with the 2007 and 2010 Camrys, other than continuing to use the hooks and only one mat (all weather mats in both due to rain, snow, etc).
lets just say for now that it is the mats that are jamming up the gas pedal. Why is it such a problem with ONLY TOYOTAS?...I know you will say there are reports of this for all brands, but come on, toyota has way more incidents than anybody else.Add to this that toyota has hooks to hold the mats in place and they should have zero problems. lets say for arguments sake that 50% use the hooks. toyota should have the least amount of problems, because as you say...the mats cant move. I think that by itself points to the fact that there is something else going on besides floor mats.My floormats in my 04 avalanche and my wifes 10 equinox never move at all... (or the 06 impala before that) in fact to even try to slide them seems impossible(without lifting them up first) and this is without hooks
the info from which i concluded that floormats are not the issue was all provided by Toyota. I independently drew the same conclusion as some of the safety mavens.
Folks can draw their own conclusions and warn or not-warn their friends & loved-ones who drive Toyotas.
Time will tell... The bodycount will continue to climb, or not... Maybe we have somehow seen the last injury/fatality attributed to Toyota's admitted safety issue. I hope so!
You have a very good point. If there were truly a problem with the design of the throttle or engine, then one would have expected many more incidences of out of control acceleratio than there have been.
Makes me not want to buy a Toyota, though, until they do figure out exactly what happened.
There are multiple reasons..and precision is needed here: At present the only provable condition that seems consistent throughout the reports is the relatively frequent presence of All Weather Mats, unsecured AND sitting on top of the OEM carpetted mats. This is the dangerous situation that the NHTSA and Toyota are addressing by this recall. When these three conditions are present then possibly in combination with the pedal design a hazardous situation might arise.
However if the three qualifying situations don't occur then any other cases are simply unproven right now. No matter how 'good' a circumstantial case the LA Times or any other group might create there's no data to substantiate that case. Noone has been able to show me anything other than speculation.
I trust my own experiences and data accumulation than anyone else with a possible axe to grind. I'm a better judge of the risks to me than anyone else.
In cases like yours and mine I'll venture that with 30-40 million vehicless on the roads right now that those that are driving Toyota's and not experiencing any types of these issues will cast a skeptical eye on the whole recall issue. In fact if November is an indication sales are increasing.
Those with an antipathy toward Toyota or just a hesitancy or a preference for another brand will find this as an excuse not to buy one. Life moves on.
was it at full throttle with max brakes after running maxed for a while? when things get overheated, or outside there normal environment, systems may not respond as expected.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
Very few incidents of rudder failure happened statistically on the B737 either and initial crashes were first attributed to pilot error. When you have complexity things can happen. I think the industry needs to carefully look at electronic drive by wire including potential fault analysis. An out of control accelerating car is a potential killer not just to the occupants, but to bystanders as well. The potential for glitches and gremlins isn't just a Toyota thing. It is common knowledge that electronics performance can be affected by extreme temperature, electromagnetic interference or simple things like shorts or bad wires. At a minimum there needs to be a back up methodolgy in an emergency (most car drivers aren't trained like professional pilots and to assume they will just shift into neutral while in a panic isn't going to do it). The automatic brake overide may be the answer and should probably be required on all manufacturer's drive by wire vehicles, and the carpets and floorpans should be designed to minimize potential blockage of accelerator and brake pedal operation. While most incidents may be attributable to driver pedal error or bunched mats, I think it is arrogant to blow off potential other causes than can occasionally occur. I happen to think this is the general public's attitude as well. Toyota smartened up in a hurry and if the other manufacturers are wise they will to.
It looked like the brakes were not hot to begin with; the car was run up to about 70 mph at full throttle, then the driver shifted to neutral, and braked hard. The car stopped quickly under that condition. The other sitaution was accelerating at full throttle up to the same speed, keeping the tranny in drive, and stomping ONCE on the brakes. The car slowed, but much more gradually, to about 30 mph.
Then the driver accelerated again and this time tried stepping on the brakes twice with the gas pedal fully depressed. On the second brake application, the "brake" warning light went on, and there was no effective stopping power because the vacuum reserve was used up.
My impression is that these throttle-by-wire systems were widely tested before they went into cars. Also, there are multiple layers of redundancy built in. I'm not saying they can't fail, but no one has yet shown this to be the case.
I've been driving for over 40 years, and cars from the "good old days" with their simplicity were NOT more trouble-free than current vehicles. Just a couple of examples: our family Chevrolet, a '67 Bel Air with a straight 6 and no emissions controls other than PCV, had persistent problems with its automatic choke. It wouldn't shut off after the engine warmed up unless you repeatedly stabbed the gas pedal. Also the engnie would backfire when ascending moderate grades before the car was 2 years old. My new '75 Rabbit developed problems with its carb needle valves within 4 months of ownership, so that the engine refused to start on a cool day in early November. :sick:
you conveniently skipped past the question,if floor mats are the problem WHY IS THIS UNPROPORTIONATLEY A TOYOTA PROBLEM??? Are toyota drivers the only people who throw in an extra floor mat ,or use the "wrong"mats. something doesnt add up. and blaming the customer, in typical toyota fashion, isnt going to cut it
What you have pointed out is technology in the engines has made great strides. We are getting way more HP from a lot less cubic inches and the engines start much easier. However in the HP Race some things were not addressed. And possible computer glitches are showing up. As in the Prius stalling while cruising down the road. Same ECU that is being questioned now with the WOT. We may never know the truth about these fatal accidents. Still to be on the safe side the smart pedal idea seems a good way to eliminate a possible glitch. Toyota along with other auto makers are just late to the game. I would imagine the Audi SUA prompted VW to put brake over-ride on their vehicles many years ago. Live and learn.
>At a minimum there needs to be a back up methodolgy in an emergency
You're spot on in your assessment.
The cases that are NOT mat abuse by owner may be due to a computer malfunction. If the same computer does the shifting-by-wire and the computer is facing a "blue screen of death" the cure is a complete electrical disconnect. I feel a computer-based brake pedal cancelling acceleration may not work if the computer has lost its mind. I parallel this to some of the computers I've worked with that won't shut down. They won't react to the "power" button on the case which you hold for 5 seconds, more or less, and the motherboard shuts everything down. The onnly cure for a runaway computer is to switch a master switch on the power supply on the back or pull the wall plug. I believe the same needs to be designed into all cars, not just the brand discussed here.
Even our washing machine has a kill switch by pressing the pause/cancel switch twice. Not matter if it's spinning at 1000 rpm, it shuts off. The only thing alive is a safety lock on the glass lid so it can't be opened until the spinning has stopped.
The cars need a switch that kills the electrical circuit to the whole system--like the ignition key setup currently in most of the cars still on the road other than recent models that have moved to the button.
Your antipathy toward Toyota herein and on other threads shows you to be in the latter group that I mentioned above but it's a reasonable question. My view
There are a number of possible explanations,,,
1 The design of the aftermarket Toyota All Weather Mats may be different 2 Toyota was involved in a prior recall on these AWMs which brought the attention of the public to the issue which seems to have caused...( NHTSA findings ) ...a. copy cat claimants? ...b. unfounded claimants? ...c. claimants out for profit? 3 Most of the claims not involving mats have been dismissed by the NHTSA as driver error or they never happened. Anyone can file a report with the NHTSA..even you.
In the absence of any real hard evidence and data from any reputable source all we can go with is our own experiences and preferences. You would like to believe that there's something else involved. But you actually have no experience, data or evidence to support your position. I understand though from the tenor of your post and your prior posts that you don't need any proof you will gladly convict without any evidence. I have 500,000 miles worth of experience and data behind me over these last 10 yrs as noted above.
The cars need a switch that kills the electrical circuit to the whole system--like the ignition key setup currently in most of the cars still on the road other than recent models that have moved to the button.
There is...it's the simplest one that works all the time...
SHIFT TO NEUTRAL AND LIVE
Disconnect the wheels from the power source and the vehicle slows down. This solves the problem every time.
"I have 500,000 miles worth of experience and data behind me over these last 10 yrs as noted above".
I guess this site has turned into "debate 2009" or "big fat liar". You can type in Google another phrase "Oil sludge and the Toyota Corolla comes up. I have know many people who have lost their Corolla engine to oil sludge. A lady at work who's dad is an engineer at Toyota who had her oil changed and service at the dealer on time every time and her engine blew at 80,000 miles due to oil sludge. My brother has the same year Corolla with 200,000 and still going strong so he thinks the oil sludge problem is people just not taken care of their car as Toyota has suggested. So just because you do not have problems doesn't mean that everyone is not going to. I would think that the engineers have guidelines when designing cars to make them as Idiot proof as possible and sometimes things get past them. I can't wait to see how the defense attorneys reply to this
Come on!!!! Do you honestly believe even for a moment that an experienced police officer wouldn't have tried that........... :confuse: :sick:
Considering we had a local officer accidentally shoot himself while cleaning his gun (thankfully he's okay), yes, I believe it's possible he panicked and didn't try to put in neutral.
I saw the CU video which used a v6 Venza with the same powertrain as a Camry and ES350 and it was possible to shift to neutral when at full throttle. I doubt the ES350 is any different.
Was the Venza WOT at 120 MPH? That has been my question from day one. Why didn't he shift into neutral? A question that may never be answered. Though I would think the EDR would have that information.
No, IIRC, in the video, they were going around 50mph, floored it to around 70mph, kept it floored, then tried to stop as quickly as possible. After showing how it's possible to loose braking power, they did the same thing, but around 70mph, put it in neutral. The engine revved to the rev limiter and the driver pulled over, safely stopping the car.
I have no idea what kind of training the officer in question had. I'd guess very few people have ever put their car in neutral moving or not. It's possible that idea never crossed his mind. I think the natural reaction for most people would be just to slam on the brakes, which can quickly become ineffective, thus you end up out of control at 120+mph.
Looking at picks of the ES350 shifter, it does look like it could be confusing, particularly in a panic situation. I don't know for sure, but it looks like you have to move it over to the right out of the manual shifting gate. So indeed, it may have some time of electrical interlock, or at least, it may not be intuitive to put into neutral. Since this car was not his daily driver, not being familiar with the vehicle could and probably is a huge contributing factor.
All modern engines have rev limiters that protect the engine at WOT.
Not sure of your point. :confuse: I would not worry about blowing the engine on a loaner in that situation. It seems strange to me that no one has driven an ES350 WOT to 120 MPH and tried shifting out of gear. Seems like the first logical test CR would have done.
A serious question and technical in nature: Is the shifting controlled by a computer on that Camry and ES350? If this is a hypothetical computer failure problem, does the shift mechanism respond to input from the shifter in the passenger compartment while it's in failure mode?
Responding to the other poster:
The lack of control in the Venza test is that the motor was not being told to do uncontrolled acceleration by the computer at the time of the test. That computer control is still the factor that is not "a controlled variable" in the empirical testing done by others.
A local mechanic just had a call about a Matrix that is giving a surging problem and has scared the older-sounding owner because it almost is uncontrollable with the brake pedal. This occurs at low speeds and stopped. It is random. The dealer just says it has to do it for them... not a good answer, but better than telling her it was her fault! :P
The mechanic stated very clearly it might be related to the other problems Toyota continues to have. He clearly stated he had been driving a Toyota and had uncontrolled acceleration. He clearly stated there were no floor mats. He also said they've had many complaints in their shop about surging with the drive-by-wire over a period of time, not just recently from "copycat complainers."
It's easy after the fact to say shift to neutral, but people are creatures of habit and a situation like unintended acceleration is not a common or normal event. Older people learned in driver's ed to pump the brakes in an emergency and now they teach to hold the brake pedal down for ABS. I think the VW Audi brake override is an excellent idea and everyone should start installing that safety feature. Probably doesn't even cost very much when done during vehicle assembly.
Now I am beginning to understand why so many people claim they are "taken" by UFO's...10 or 15% of people will believe them. If others thought they could profit in some way, probably another 40% would say they believe them.
There is a lot of conjecture here and many have found Toyota guilty even though there is absolutely no proof. I'll wait for the black box but right now I am thinking driver error, panic, and maybe a little mass hysteria.
I was reading papers on the internet today and lo and behold there is an article in the Detroit paper, actually a reposting of an LA Times article, that there are a number of sudden stalling problems on Corolla and Matrix being investigated.
For all the Camry electronic naysayers, apparently the feds and Toyota are looking at possible electronic issues:
The agency indicates the problem could be linked to the onboard computer, or electronic control module. Toyota on its own issued a service bulletin to its dealers two years ago, calling for replacement of that component in Corolla or Matrix vehicles experiencing "harsh shift."
I guess when you get big you are bound to become another GM or Ford.
>Now I am beginning to understand why so many people claim they are "taken" by UFO's...10 or 15% of people will believe them. If others thought they could profit in some way, probably another 40% would say they believe them.
>conjecture
Now that anyone here with a scientific open mind has been insulted as a UFO believer... :P :sick:
"NHTSA's records of complaints show numerous incidents of Corolla and Matrix vehicles stalling, often in situations where other vehicles could strike the car. One details a Corolla that stalled in heavy traffic in December of last year, blocking a right-turn lane for two hours until it could be towed.
"The agency indicates the problem could be linked to the onboard computer, or electronic control module. Toyota on its own issued a service bulletin to its dealers two years ago, calling for replacement of that component in Corolla or Matrix vehicles experiencing "harsh shift."" --from the Detroit News. One of those OUT OF THIS WORLD newspapers. :P link title
Comments
Exactly, if you have a runaway engine with vacuum assist; the brakes will only have a pump or two of braking power then you essentially have none. Most passenger cars probably would have smoking brakes in a panic stop from speeds over 100mph. The engine stuck at full throttle will only add to the energy that must be absorbed.
Even without loosing vacuum, braking power doesn't last long on a passenger car. I'd guess a typical brake system can only handle one or two max stop from 100+ w/o needing time to cool down. I've seen many stock cars (miatas, mustangs, camaros etc) that have lost brakes just after a few laps on a road course due to the brakes getting to hot.
I tend to agree. I'd probably put it in neutral first, your not going to harm any modern engine as they all have rev limiters. My 07 Expedition is limited to 3k rpm when in park or neutral. Depending on the situation, I think it could be difficult to reach the gas pedal with my hand while trying to control a car that is relatively quick like an ES350. If your going 40 or 50 when the throttle is stuck to the floor, in probably 10 seconds your going over 100 and in a congested area that would be very dangerous. I think the safest thing to do is to put it in neutral and pull off to the side of the road.
you could apply the brakes in a normal manner and when they did not slow the car, apply full pressure and have the car stop.
don't forget, when you shift into neutral, it will actually go out of gear.
the same software that prevents the engine from being over revved when not in gear, could also prevent a shift out of gear at high rpm's.
I don't think if my throttle stuck at high speed, I'd look down at the gas pedal to see what was going on. I'd just throw it into neutral (my 2 automatics have "straight through" shifters) and on the manual transmission truck, I'd step on the clutch and brakes.
Still speculation.
I would do that too, and most people on this forum would too. BUT, most here are the exception. MOST people probably would not, and to keep speculating that the guy would know or think to pull it off the pedal is not realistic, cop or not. Until you have been in a situation like this, and I hope no one ever is, you never know how you will react. Maybe the guy did not have this floor mat training, maybe he was not there that day, maybe he wasn't the brightest bulb, maybe he just froze, who knows! We do have a few facts, and one is that the mat was melted to the pedal, and we know that it cannot contact the pedal unless it was unsecured, and we know that the wrong mat was unsecured, and these mats if unsecured can cause a pedal to get stuck down, and the fire welded it to the pedal. If the mat was secured, it would not have been in contact with the pedal. Sure seems to me that the mat being fused to the pedal was the problem, and obviously the poor guy did not move it back. The idiot(s) at that Lexus dealership are to blame. The survivors should own that place!
same software that prevents the engine from being over revved when not in gear, could also prevent a shift out of gear at high rpm's.
That's what some people
hopesay, but CR did a test where they shifted to neutral with no problem at full throttle.And someone is going to pay because there had to be more than one thing horribly wrong whether the mat were the cause of the acceleration or another unpublicized factor in the engine control and body control computers were the causes of the acceleration.
Sadly, people died.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I totally agree. Whether it was a yard boy or the owner of the company. They should have known there was an issue. And rubber floor mats in San Diego are ridiculous to start with. Probably why they did not have the correct mat in stock. It has only rained once in the last 7 months.
The idiot(s) at that Lexus dealership are to blame. The survivors should own that place!
Oh, please.
I have already shown how it is VERY UNLIKELY, almost impossible, to imagine a scenario that the floormat caused the accident, so how could they have been at fault?
If anything, the cause of this was a computer fault which locked the throttle open.
'Yota might be at fault, but not the dealership. There are no drive-by-wire engineers working at the dealerships.
I just don't undersrtand why the officer didn't put the sedan in neutral and/or try to slow the car down in some manner.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I agree if the black box (EDR) were to show a problem in the control computer, Toyota will be in deep doo doo. The NHTSA report vaguely implicated the floor mat. It also slammed the keyless ignition as not being consumer friendly in a panic situation. The dealer still has fault to share in light of the previous recall. They did not install the correct floor mats, into the hooks that would keep it from sliding forward and jamming the accelerator. Lexus of El Cajon is not off the hook by a long shot.
My speculation:
Typical highway driving speeds would be 65-75-85 mph. At that point nothing would seem amiss. When however the speed got up over 85 mph then I'm speculating that the officer probably sensed something was not right. He'd probably let off the pedal as we all would. When the vehicle didn't slow down right away he'd touch the brakes. Nothing. The speed is approaching 90-95 mph. He hits the brakes hard or pumps them which is the wrong action to take. Nothing. Now the speed is approaching 100 mph and he's concerned with the safety of the passengers and every other driver around him so his eyes are glued to the road and traffic as the speed gets over 100 mph going faster yet. Now try to reach down and grab the thick All Weather mats while holding the wheel and going 100+ mph. One's eyesight drops below the level of the dash so the driver would be flying down the freeway at 100+ mph driving blind while trying to dislodge the mat.
But if his left foot is braced on the mat for balance he's pushing forward and down with his leg while his hand is attempting to pull it backward and up....all while driving blind at 100+ mph.
Why not shift to Neutral? We won't know that answer. It would have solved everything.
The very first floormat put in the first car probably got stuck similarly.
It is a very common occurrence as far as I know!
In toyotas, this common occurence has exposed what I consider a "catastrophic bug" resulting in a fatality/casualty count of 200 so far - and 2000 confirmed cases of 'unwanted acceleration' where nobody was injured.
I agree with the analysis & enlightening questions by "Clarence Ditlow"
http://www.autosafety.org/cas-statement-11-25-09-toyota-uncontrolled-acceleratio- - n-recall
Statement of CAS Executive Director Clarence Ditlow
Toyota's recall of 3.8 million vehicles to replace gas pedals, reshape the floor pan and install smart pedals (a system that cuts engine power when both brake and accelerator pedals are applied simultaneously) presents more questions than answers.
● Why doesn't Toyota's recall cover the millions of vehicles made before 2005 that were the subject of six government (NHTSA) unintended acceleration investigations and defect petitions since 2003?
● Why don't all 3.8 million vehicles in the recall get smart pedals?
● If unintended acceleration is caused by floor mats getting trapped under the gas pedal, how does Toyota explain unintended acceleration in vehicles without floor mats?
● Since Toyota recalled the Lexus LS200 for floor mat interference in Britain in September 2000, why did it take so long to recall in the US?
● What's the difference in gas pedal design between a recalled 2005 and a non-recalled 2004 Camry?
Toyota should install smart pedals (brake override system) in everyone of the 3.8 million vehicles and all vehicles made since 1997 with drive by wire systems (electronic connections between gas pedal and throttle) because floor mat interference is not the root cause of unintended acceleration incidents. Toyota and NHTSA should admit that they don't know the cause of all unintended acceleration incidents and treat the problem by using the vehicle's computer to back off on engine power when both the brakes and throttle are applied. NHTSA should issue a Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard requiring smart pedals in all new vehicles.
If this is quoted correctly, then Clarence is wrong. There is no difference between the 2004 and 05 Camry's gas pedal -- I should know, because I have both. The 2005-06 Camrys are not being recalled. It was the 2007 model that received the redesign.
This is the same Clarence Ditlow who went all hysterical over the Audi 5000 "sudden acceleration" issue, yet Audi was ultimately cleared.
As I've said before, I'm not worried about the drive-by-wire pedals in my Camry. What concerns me is whether the guy in the next lane is high, pulled an all-nighter, or just had a big argument with his wife!
Wow, on all of the Toyotas I have had that had the hooks to hold the mats, the mats have NEVER moved and interfered with the pedals - never, and I am speaking from 300,000 miles experience. Also, the hooks have never broken either. I also have 2007 and 2010 Camrys, same thing, they never move.
Sounds like an ambulance chaser to me and 210delray - I agree with 210delray, and we actually own the cars.
At any rate, the mat was the wrong one for that vehicle and it was not tied down properly. The SD Lexus dealer is gonna be taking the heat here IMO.
No, I don't feel that this should cause an outright freakout feeling about the safety of Toyota rigs. OTOH-Toyota needs to do the work they've talked about doing and yes, it sounds like they really need to put that smart pedal in to fix this problem for the future. Like ASAP.
And hopefully owners of these vehicles Toyota has detailed in the press releases have ditched or at least stored away their driver's mats and are not using them in the meantime. Ignoring this problem as a Toyota/Lexus vehicle owner won't make it go away any more than Toyota Motors ignoring the problem. Right?
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
McDawgg has a good point also; I've racked up over 220,000 combined miles in my former and current Camrys, and my mats have never moved, and the retention hooks have never broken.
With regard to the San Diego crash, I've always understood that an incorrect all-weather mat (from a Lexus RX) was stacked on top of the original carpeted mat, silly because as Gagrice and old song says, "it never rains in Southern California."
Another vote here based on miles and years. Since Jan 1 2000 which will be 10 yrs at the end of this month I've put 350,000 miles on two Camry's and a Prius. My wife has added 150,000 miles on an MR2, Highlander and Solara. Never once in half a million miles using six vehicles has any mat ever come loose off the hooks; never once has any mat ever come anywhere near the gas pedal; never once has any engine seemed to surge out of control.
This is a huge non-issue in our personal experiences over 10 full years of driving.
Another vote here based on miles and years. Since Jan 1 2000 which will be 10 yrs at the end of this month I've put 350,000 miles on two Camry's and a Prius. My wife has added 150,000 miles on an MR2, Highlander and Solara. Never once in half a million miles using six vehicles has any mat ever come loose off the hooks; never once has any mat ever come anywhere near the gas pedal; never once has any engine seemed to surge out of control.
And I bet that almost everyone else in the country has similar experiences to the three of ours, which totals about a million miles between the 3 of us.
In fact, even without the hooks, the very sharp backing makes it almost impossible to move without lifting them up.
Unless someone can produce some real evidence that it is something other than the mats, I am also doing nothing with the 2007 and 2010 Camrys, other than continuing to use the hooks and only one mat (all weather mats in both due to rain, snow, etc).
Folks can draw their own conclusions and warn or not-warn their friends & loved-ones who drive Toyotas.
Time will tell... The bodycount will continue to climb, or not...
Maybe we have somehow seen the last injury/fatality attributed to Toyota's admitted safety issue. I hope so!
Makes me not want to buy a Toyota, though, until they do figure out exactly what happened.
At present the only provable condition that seems consistent throughout the reports is the relatively frequent presence of All Weather Mats, unsecured AND sitting on top of the OEM carpetted mats. This is the dangerous situation that the NHTSA and Toyota are addressing by this recall.
When these three conditions are present then possibly in combination with the pedal design a hazardous situation might arise.
However if the three qualifying situations don't occur then any other cases are simply unproven right now. No matter how 'good' a circumstantial case the LA Times or any other group might create there's no data to substantiate that case. Noone has been able to show me anything other than speculation.
I trust my own experiences and data accumulation than anyone else with a possible axe to grind. I'm a better judge of the risks to me than anyone else.
Those with an antipathy toward Toyota or just a hesitancy or a preference for another brand will find this as an excuse not to buy one. Life moves on.
when things get overheated, or outside there normal environment, systems may not respond as expected.
it is not the insurance company.
did you ever watch the movie The Big Easy?
Then the driver accelerated again and this time tried stepping on the brakes twice with the gas pedal fully depressed. On the second brake application, the "brake" warning light went on, and there was no effective stopping power because the vacuum reserve was used up.
I've been driving for over 40 years, and cars from the "good old days" with their simplicity were NOT more trouble-free than current vehicles. Just a couple of examples: our family Chevrolet, a '67 Bel Air with a straight 6 and no emissions controls other than PCV, had persistent problems with its automatic choke. It wouldn't shut off after the engine warmed up unless you repeatedly stabbed the gas pedal. Also the engnie would backfire when ascending moderate grades before the car was 2 years old. My new '75 Rabbit developed problems with its carb needle valves within 4 months of ownership, so that the engine refused to start on a cool day in early November. :sick:
You're spot on in your assessment.
The cases that are NOT mat abuse by owner may be due to a computer malfunction. If the same computer does the shifting-by-wire and the computer is facing a "blue screen of death" the cure is a complete electrical disconnect. I feel a computer-based brake pedal cancelling acceleration may not work if the computer has lost its mind. I parallel this to some of the computers I've worked with that won't shut down. They won't react to the "power" button on the case which you hold for 5 seconds, more or less, and the motherboard shuts everything down. The onnly cure for a runaway computer is to switch a master switch on the power supply on the back or pull the wall plug. I believe the same needs to be designed into all cars, not just the brand discussed here.
Even our washing machine has a kill switch by pressing the pause/cancel switch twice. Not matter if it's spinning at 1000 rpm, it shuts off. The only thing alive is a safety lock on the glass lid so it can't be opened until the spinning has stopped.
The cars need a switch that kills the electrical circuit to the whole system--like the ignition key setup currently in most of the cars still on the road other than recent models that have moved to the button.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
There are a number of possible explanations,,,
1 The design of the aftermarket Toyota All Weather Mats may be different
2 Toyota was involved in a prior recall on these AWMs which brought the attention of the public to the issue which seems to have caused...( NHTSA findings )
...a. copy cat claimants?
...b. unfounded claimants?
...c. claimants out for profit?
3 Most of the claims not involving mats have been dismissed by the NHTSA as driver error or they never happened. Anyone can file a report with the NHTSA..even you.
In the absence of any real hard evidence and data from any reputable source all we can go with is our own experiences and preferences. You would like to believe that there's something else involved. But you actually have no experience, data or evidence to support your position. I understand though from the tenor of your post and your prior posts that you don't need any proof you will gladly convict without any evidence. I have 500,000 miles worth of experience and data behind me over these last 10 yrs as noted above.
There is...it's the simplest one that works all the time...
SHIFT TO NEUTRAL AND LIVE
Disconnect the wheels from the power source and the vehicle slows down. This solves the problem every time.
I guess this site has turned into "debate 2009" or "big fat liar".
You can type in Google another phrase "Oil sludge and the Toyota Corolla comes up. I have know many people who have lost their Corolla engine to oil sludge. A lady at work who's dad is an engineer at Toyota who had her oil changed and service at the dealer on time every time and her engine blew at 80,000 miles due to oil sludge. My brother has the same year Corolla with 200,000 and still going strong so he thinks the oil sludge problem is people just not taken care of their car as Toyota has suggested. So just because you do not have problems doesn't mean that everyone is not going to. I would think that the engineers have guidelines when designing cars to make them as Idiot proof as possible and sometimes things get past them. I can't wait to see how the defense attorneys reply to this
SHIFT TO NEUTRAL AND LIVE
Come on!!!! Do you honestly believe even for a moment that an experienced police officer wouldn't have tried that........... :confuse: :sick:
Considering we had a local officer accidentally shoot himself while cleaning his gun (thankfully he's okay), yes, I believe it's possible he panicked and didn't try to put in neutral.
I saw the CU video which used a v6 Venza with the same powertrain as a Camry and ES350 and it was possible to shift to neutral when at full throttle. I doubt the ES350 is any different.
No, IIRC, in the video, they were going around 50mph, floored it to around 70mph, kept it floored, then tried to stop as quickly as possible. After showing how it's possible to loose braking power, they did the same thing, but around 70mph, put it in neutral. The engine revved to the rev limiter and the driver pulled over, safely stopping the car.
I have no idea what kind of training the officer in question had. I'd guess very few people have ever put their car in neutral moving or not. It's possible that idea never crossed his mind. I think the natural reaction for most people would be just to slam on the brakes, which can quickly become ineffective, thus you end up out of control at 120+mph.
Looking at picks of the ES350 shifter, it does look like it could be confusing, particularly in a panic situation. I don't know for sure, but it looks like you have to move it over to the right out of the manual shifting gate. So indeed, it may have some time of electrical interlock, or at least, it may not be intuitive to put into neutral. Since this car was not his daily driver, not being familiar with the vehicle could and probably is a huge contributing factor.
SHIFT TO NEUTRAL AND LIVE.
Not sure of your point. :confuse: I would not worry about blowing the engine on a loaner in that situation. It seems strange to me that no one has driven an ES350 WOT to 120 MPH and tried shifting out of gear. Seems like the first logical test CR would have done.
I'm sure the officer tried to do that.
A serious question and technical in nature: Is the shifting controlled by a computer on that Camry and ES350? If this is a hypothetical computer failure problem, does the shift mechanism respond to input from the shifter in the passenger compartment while it's in failure mode?
Responding to the other poster:
The lack of control in the Venza test is that the motor was not being told to do uncontrolled acceleration by the computer at the time of the test. That computer control is still the factor that is not "a controlled variable" in the empirical testing done by others.
A local mechanic just had a call about a Matrix that is giving a surging problem and has scared the older-sounding owner because it almost is uncontrollable with the brake pedal. This occurs at low speeds and stopped. It is random. The dealer just says it has to do it for them... not a good answer, but better than telling her it was her fault! :P
The mechanic stated very clearly it might be related to the other problems Toyota continues to have. He clearly stated he had been driving a Toyota and had uncontrolled acceleration. He clearly stated there were no floor mats. He also said they've had many complaints in their shop about surging with the drive-by-wire over a period of time, not just recently from "copycat complainers."
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I think there is no cost; it's just written into the software "controlling" (we hope) the computer.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
There is a lot of conjecture here and many have found Toyota guilty even though there is absolutely no proof. I'll wait for the black box but right now I am thinking driver error, panic, and maybe a little mass hysteria.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
link title
For all the Camry electronic naysayers, apparently the feds and Toyota are looking at possible electronic issues:
The agency indicates the problem could be linked to the onboard computer, or electronic control module. Toyota on its own issued a service bulletin to its dealers two years ago, calling for replacement of that component in Corolla or Matrix vehicles experiencing "harsh shift."
I guess when you get big you are bound to become another GM or Ford.
>conjecture
Now that anyone here with a scientific open mind has been insulted as a UFO believer... :P
"NHTSA's records of complaints show numerous incidents of Corolla and Matrix vehicles stalling, often in situations where other vehicles could strike the car. One details a Corolla that stalled in heavy traffic in December of last year, blocking a right-turn lane for two hours until it could be towed.
"The agency indicates the problem could be linked to the onboard computer, or electronic control module. Toyota on its own issued a service bulletin to its dealers two years ago, calling for replacement of that component in Corolla or Matrix vehicles experiencing "harsh shift.""
--from the Detroit News. One of those OUT OF THIS WORLD newspapers. :P
link title
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460