"I got the $64K question for ya'll. Who in the hell is going to buy the products made in this country when most of the good paying jobs are exported ????? When ordinary folks don't have extra disposable income to purchase luxury's this great country's wheels will slow down" I don't understand your comment.. A lot of cars being sold in US. And alot o people have "disposable income" to buy them. Are you saying that workers at Honda or Toyota in US can not buy cars? I understand your point why you protect unions - You and your family have union jobs. But the way the rest of the country see it - its OVERPAID job! The education, job demand, and economics can not justify that unrealistic salary, benefits and pension demands. And don't bring the argument that CEOs are making millions. I don't say that all of them deserve it, but it can be justified since the way they run the company impact stock prices, profitability, and have direct impact on global economy. I work for one of the largest financial company in the world (its name start with Citi...)and CEO is top ten paid in America with the bonuses approaching billion $. My bonus is barely approaching amount of two pay checks. Do you think I do not want more? But I understand that he is much, much, much more important figure for the company then myself. You were saying that anybody can run GM even yourself. WRONG! The minute that would announced the stock price of GM will dive to the bottom of Atlantic ocean! I thing in my previous post I said that I came to US from Soviet Union. One of the famous quotes from the founder of Soviet Union - Lenin - was that anybody (including kitchen workers) can run a government and country. They implemented that. And you know what happened....
Although wages have gone down, the total paid is about the same. This is b/c although salary went down, health insurance and retirement costs are sky rocketing. This Is what companies are contributing more and mroe to. The funny thing is that the level of care is the same or going down.
You can blame it on who ever you want (I blame it on Hillary) but the combination of insurance companies, doctors offices, and liability suits, have created a monopoly that keeps raising the price of basic care, and throwing in needless exams to prevent suits that dont do anything but take up time. The price goes up, and ALL US CO's suffer.
This has lead to an explosion in labor cost, combined with severe increased competition as the Euros and Asians Finally caught up with us in terms of technology. Instead of confronting the monolopist health insurance industry, labor and managmnet are fighting one another. Its going to destroy every industry!
They need to band together and assault the insurace companies (were else... congress) to push for less regulation and the split of large conglomerate corps into baby bells like at&T in its time. These peope have lots of money, but meybe whats left of our homem industry can do this together and fight them off.
The retirenment thing is a nightmare. SAVE FOR YOUR OWN RETIRENMNET! Bush had a great idea with the 4% private accounts. If this number could go to 50% sovency problem = solved. People would also get higher returns and 50% would be US protected. The real problem is that people were promised way to much and since mostly old people vote, the rest of us "young" ppl get screwed. This is also a problem to US competetiveness and this I blame on everyone under the age of 60 who would rather cheat on there wives and husbands than raise there children and vote.
These are very serious problems. I don't in any way agree with unions. I have many not so nice things to say about them, they are also a problem. These leeches need to go, but they would not exist without corrupt managment and therefore only together can they solve this problem.
I can't believe bush's retirenment plan did not go through, If our children refuse to honor us, we will know why.
Rocky, You know that adamant position will serve no one in the end.You don't want to go to Canada or Norway because I think you will find much more of a European mindset than you can handle.The SOCIO-DEMOCRATS can provide you with something similar here at a 48% tax rate on your wages if allowed to. Tough Choice ! The bottom line is change. Either accept it or perish. Job guarantees are just not there anymore. Legacy costs have caused the Japanese to come here and for us to look at expanding other markets such as India/China. I think your attitude is akin to a one farrier that refused to see future impact of the auto and the other one that adapted. One perished the other repaired gears.
You will not survive doing simple assembly work in the future. Sorry, I just don't believe it.
God man,1957? You have given me a clue. You seem to like things that are "thick" in construction while I prefer them to be "correct". I hope those selections are not indicative of your logic process. Since you have asked, , I have owned: a Porche 911,SL 450,and a Lotus Elan in my younger days. I still stand by my original comment. I will continue to buy domestic. It is MY choice as is yours. That is not to say the Japanese don't build a good product. As for credentials....don't go there. You are treading on thin ice.
the only thing is left for you to do is define domestic. My definition of domestic is Honda Accord that I have. It designed for USA only, build here in Ohio, by American workers with majority of components built in USA. This is an American car. So what American car do you own?
Well, you mention status when choosing a car...not many current domestics have much of that, positive status anyway. But in 1957, yeah, I could see it. So what domestic do you drive? It must be 'correct' as well. You still haven't answered.
"You seem to like things that are "thick" in construction while I prefer them to be "correct". I hope those selections are not indicative of your logic process."
Are you kidding? Are you saying I choose incorrect cars? Well, the 220SE fintail, bought for a pittance when I was in high school and now is a hobby car, was certainly the most advanced sedan on the planet at introduction. It's been off the road as a daily car now for almost 5 years. I've spent $0 on it during that time, save for fluid changes. I think I made a decent choice, especially on a dollars/fun equation.
SL 450? that's all I needed to know.
"You are treading on thin ice."
Check yourself. I sincerely doubt you have the means to make such a statement. Don't overestimate your power. Good day to you.
Canada, and Norway aren't baught yet (Well I do know that Norway isn't yet) I'd love to pay a 48% tax rate and know that all my education, healthcare, and real mininum wage was implemented.
Rocky
P.S.
I guess I will perish, but it won't be done quietly.
My definition of "domestic" is determined by who owns the company and where do the profits eventually go . I am not talking about PLACE of assembly or percentage of American assembly labor content. Since I realize that the Japanese are playing a shrewd legacy game with us,it is only a matter of time. In 10-15 years the anguished cry of poor US retired workers who worked for JAPANESE owners will be heard. And you know what? We will be standing around in disbelief as a nation!
If unions are to blame for laughable domestic quality, when why are some domestics pretty good, while some are crap?
Many "domestics" are made outside union shops or imported altogether, like from Canada.
Why have these apparently fairly compensated suits been so unable to fix the problem? Now that would be earning their salary. Maybe if these people would work with the idea that their future is on the line...
Their futures are indeed on the line. The retirement benefits of the salaried employees are far more vulnerable than those of the union members as evidenced in the recent past. Not all problems of the world is however fixable; say, even if you are the best football coach in the world, you are not going to make a dozen 120-lb guys win the Superbowl regardless how good your coaching skills are. Given the inflexible union labor structure, nobody in the world can fix the problem without threat of bankruptcy make the union inflexbility a thing of the past first . . . after that, we can see how good the management really is when they are tied down by the dead weight. From past experience, both from their performance in China (the world's 2nd largest auto market) and their performance at GMAC (one of the largest consumer and commercial lending institutions), they seem to be able to do quite well.
You perk up when corporate higher-ups are bashed, there is some kind of sympathy there.
Do incompetent managers exist? Of course they do. You however named Rick Wagoner without knowing a thing about what he has done. Considering his track record of turning around GM Brazil in the 90's, and his big bet in China paying off to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars last year, you were obviously barking up the wrong tree.
I suspect there already are some horror stories about unfair treatment of workers if you are in the areas where those young imports are built. They are in hire for pay states in all cases I'll bet.
There will be a constant shedding of employees who might pose expense due to injuries or health in the future and then the age purge will start, if it hasn't already. They will keep their employees younger and healthier; to heck with others. The dismissals will be under many guises for reasons.
My definition of "domestic" is determined by who owns the company and where do the profits eventually go
In that case, I hope that the UAW rank-and-file are practicing their Spanish, Korean and Chinese (probably Mandarin would be best), because those will be the languages in the neighborhoods where the Big 2.5 will be building their plants.
(Oh, that's right -- there won't be a UAW in those places. Oh, well.)
Incidentally, many of the profits earned by automakers are paid to fund capital investments and to the shareholders, the latter of which are generally investment houses throughout the western world, including the US.
And it's a good thing when they earn profits, because some of the profits earned here will be routed to the treasury in the form of taxes. Compare that to GM, which taxpayers are subsidizing with its billions of dollars in write-offs. (Unfortunately, companies that lose money don't pay income taxes.)
Retirement benefits for the bigwigs are of no matter, not when an amoral lump sum payment exists at the time of job termination. I do think in time that the companies will collapse to the point where union demands are meaningless. But somehow I am not willing to hold my breath on this platoon of suits to right the ship. I'll wager we'll get the same old stories of the best times being right around the corner. The dead weight is just as much those calling the shots.
I still haven't seen what exactly Wagoner implemented in Brazil or China, just as I haven't seen any data on Chinese-built MB and Lexus. Apparently I am barking up an invisible tree.
I can't believe you and "brightness" & "turboshadow" want to put all the blame on the "union" for GM's bad situation. As far as personal attacks by some torwards you. Well I take what you and "brightness" say about unions as a personal attack calling us overpaid "H.S. drop-outs."
Please notice, I blame the union labor structure, the work rules, not necessarily every individual union members. Union labor structure is a system that promotes mediocrity and irresponsibility. Union labor rules make it impossible to fire, hire and retrain workers in response to market needs as well as getting in the way of achieving a disciplined and constantly improving work force. That is the problem. I'm not calling you "H.S drop-outs" at all; however, any H.S. drop-out who happens to be a union member reading newspaper all day can draw just as big a check as you even if you are working all tail off all day long on the production line . . . doesn't that rile you up? It should.
I got the $64K question for ya'll. Who in the hell is going to buy the products made in this country when most of the good paying jobs are exported ????? When ordinary folks don't have extra disposable income to purchase luxury's this great country's wheels will slow down
A job has to be justified by what it produces in the free market place. Otherwise, suppose the government gives everyone a "good paying job," say $250k/yr, do you really think that is going to work? The only result of such a policy would be hyper-inflation that destroy all the savers and retirees. Defining "a good paying job" by the dollar amount is meaningless . . . "A good paying job" has to be defined by what the pay can purchase in the real market place. $150k a year and each T-shirt costs $15 is no different from $30k a year and each T-shirt costs $3 (T-shirts is used as a representative of the consumer basket).
How exactly does that definition bolster your argument? seeing that many of their cars are imported and made in non-union shops.
I know you love to rail on "the bigwigs" and "platoon of suits." Did you realize that "the bigwigs" are few and far in between, and the fixed part of their total compesation is relatively miniscule in the grand scheme of things, and the variable portion (which can get big in good days) is often heavily tied to company performance. The "platoons of suits" salaried workers, their fate is actually quite a bit more precarious than the union workers if the company goes down.
I still haven't seen what exactly Wagoner implemented in Brazil or China, just as I haven't seen any data on Chinese-built MB and Lexus. Apparently I am barking up an invisible tree.
You are just being a heckling spoil-sport. Why don't you go find what Wagoner did and screwed up. Wagoner was the managing director of GM Brazil and creditted with its turn-around. Wagoner was at the forefront of betting big in China. BMW sells almost its entire lineup in China, and has a factory that turns out 3 and 5 series there; MB is in the midst of building a factory (or is it already online now?); MB has been selling cars in China since the early 1990's, including the S class; Lexus started its worldwide launch in China (it was a US-only brand before then); Toyota Crowns (Lexus outside the US before going global) had been in China since the 1980's. That's quite enough evidence to prove that your original perception of the China market and Buick's competitive envrionment there quite off the mark.
"After two years in Zurich, he returned to Brazil in 1991 as president and managing director of GMB. As the leader of GM's Brazilian operations, Wagoner was credited with updating the company's operations in this key South American market. According to Forbes magazine, Wagoner championed the "get current, stay current" strategy at GMB, scrapping GM's previous practice of selling older-model cars in Brazil; instead, he brought the latest models to market there. It was in these two high-level jobs, Wagoner told Automotive Industries, that he learned about the importance of integrating a great product, close cost control, lean manufacturing, and global purchasing. "Both experiences showed me what we could do when we leverage GM's global resources. It significantly molded my thinking and still does today" (February 2001)
There's a lot more out there if you care to look.
"..just as I haven't seen any data on Chinese-built MB..."
"seeing that many of their cars are imported and made in non-union shops. "
Which models then, hmmm??
"Did you realize that "the bigwigs" are few and far in between"
Of course, and that has no bearing on the legitimacy of their compensation. It's this simple...they are made into millionaires many times over whether they perform or not.
"their fate is actually quite a bit more precarious"
Because the ones these companies employ really are of little value? Given the products and ideas they imagine...
Dude, you stated that both Lexus and MB have production lines in China, and that these cars are impacting the market. Selling cars and producing cars are not one in the same. Which Mercedes and BMWs are legit competitors with Buick? Which MB and Lexus are made in China? Don't answer questions with more questions. They've been asked once, that's enough.
Of course I am a spoil sport. I am not blinded by fear and faith as some others.
"A job has to be justified by what it produces in the free market place."
The US has a free market, Japan, China, and Koreahave a merchantilist market that closes them off to our goods and services and forces us to take there products. We do nothing about it. So Japan Automakers sit in Japan knowing they have no serious threat from us or euros (the Luxury cars don't count, they have verry little impact on trade). They play around in our market. Hiring non-union ppl. In 10 or 15 years nothing will happen b/c they are not union. They can be hired and fired at will.
The us needs to change the way we treat countries who shifted there economies primarily to screw ours.
And please don't waste your breath telling me about the honda in Ohio. Most of those parts are japanese, and those workers are under japanese control with an american face. The Japanese do not let GM and Ford make plants like that in Japan.
See, Japan knew that its people could not be trusted, so to insure the health of there industry they limit imports whenevr possible. We, on the other hand are blessed with a govt who lets us make our own descisions. Now, we keep deciding wrong. Every time be buy foreign we spit on our own and our childrens future. We are showing that we don't deserve to live in the paradise that many of us do.
It is bieng slowly taken away from us. Health insurance is a nightmare, foeign companies are controling more and more, out own busiensses are bieng pushed out, and the govt does nothing but issue more debt to China that our children will pay for. Why? Because they are not "man" enough to confront the health care monopolists, shatter the unions cut welfare and have more Americans takecare of there own problems.The car industry is just one battle front.
Look at our trade defecit, its like we are living in a nightmare.
Some nice insight on Wagoner, that really took a lot. I guess being better than previous GM incompetents is better than nothing. So what is he doing here? Or it all just more on the side of GM giving up for dead in the NA market...
" that he learned about the importance of integrating a great product, close cost control, lean manufacturing, and global purchasing."
Wow, that MBA went far.
Thanks for the 2 year old DC link. Now which models are actually being made, and how do they compete with Buick?
And please don't waste your breath telling me about the honda in Ohio. Most of those parts are japanese
I don't see why this misinformation keeps getting recited on this forum, when it has already been debunked several times offer.
A Honda Accord has 70% US/Canadian content; a Camry has 80%. The trend among the transplants is to increase domestic content; the trend among the Big 2.5 is the opposite.
Everyone, it's OK to have differences of opinion, but making stuff up just doesn't cut it. At least let's have an honest discussion/ squabble that cites decent sources, and doesn't rely upon "facts" that are fictitious.
I'd love to pay a 48% tax rate and know that all my education, healthcare, and real mininum wage was implemented.
Nice slogan but inevitably catastrophic when implemented:
Education? Do you mean your kids actually learning useful skills or just sit in schools with minimal lab facilities and being watched over by wardens six hours a day?
Healthcare? Do you mean actually getting a cure or being "taken care of"? It's interesting to note that life expectance doubled worldwide in the 20th century largely as the result of antibiotics. Out of the two to three dozen antibiotics commonly in use for the last 60 years, not a single one was invented in socialist countries (accounting for 3/4 of world population for much of the 2nd half of the 20th century) that had healthcare as their bragging points. All socialized medicine can bring is a false certainty that nobody else in the system will get better care than you do (including nothing at all for everyone), except for of course "the first among equals."
"Real minimum wage"? Is that an oxymoron or what? What is a wage, or money for that matter? It is the cost/power of having someone to do things for you. If the minimum cost is higher, all it means is that you have now less power to have things done for you, if you still have the same amount of savings. Clear? In reality, there is no point even defining a wage by dollar amounts; we can all define a salary or wage by how many times the mandatory minimum wage is instead . . . because that's exactly how many hours of baby sitting you will get for every hour of your time in the office or on the production line.
As for it's about the mighty bucks, what's really interesting is that if you want to emmigrate to Canada, all you need is $300k or so in investment capital. Even the Canadian government apparently knows that money is what makes the world go around. In truth, it's not the money per se, but money is what each of us, free man and woman, signals to the market place what needs to be produced. Absent of that, all the big brother government planners can do is wasting natural resources churning out products that nobody wants, like the union work rule mandates . . . or in an even worse case, like the Soviets used to churn out Lada's, which were literally worth less as cars than as component material.
Likewise, for education, healthcare and wages, we free man and woman can decide much better than any centralized beauracracy without competition.
Saturns are not made in Union shops. The join venture with Toyota making Prizm and Vibe is not covered by the ridiculous union rules that prevail in Detroit . . . they are some of the most reliable GM vehicles. Many GM and Ford models are imported from Canada and Mexico, where even if unions exist have less legacy cost either because the facility is newer or the "job protection" measures are not as extreme.
Of course, and that has no bearing on the legitimacy of their compensation. It's this simple...they are made into millionaires many times over whether they perform or not.
Some executives deserve their pay; some don't. How is that any different from any other industry? Why is the auto industry in so much more systematic trouble than in others? If you don't like the executive compensation at any specific company, you can buy their shares and go to the shareholder meetings to lodge your protest.
Because the ones these companies employ really are of little value? Given the products and ideas they imagine...
Given the success of GM China and GMAC, I'd be reluctant to paint them all with that broad stroke. Their future will indeed be jeopardized if GM goes down.
So what even if Lexus or MB do not currently have production lines in China? (MB has been building a production line there since 2004, not sure about the progress) Does the fact that Lexus and MB import their cars from Japan and German to sell in China help your argument that Buick's success there as a premium car seller is a result of all other brands selling in China being crap? I don't think so.
Of course I am a spoil sport. I am not blinded by fear and faith as some others.
I guess internet is indeed a great equalizer . . . for people with absolutely no real world experience and nothing insightful to say, yet insist on defending their ridiculous position to the death, all in the face of substantial evidence to the contrary.
Like Socala pointed out, the factual fasis of your argument is not there. Ohio Honda has 70% NA content; Kentucky Camry has 80% NA content . . . etc.
Mercantalism does not work. That has been proven over and over again. All Japanese protectionism accomplishes is making sure that Japanese consumers can only afford a lower standard of living despite their higher nominal income. Even Japanese are realizing the problem. They had been suffering from a decade long slump, only recently picking up on hopes that their market is finally opening up.
BTW, the fastest rising Japanese companies in their latest recovery, the likes of Canon and Nikon, actually out-source their production to the rest of asia, much to the dismay of their own protectionists . . . go figure. Every country has their own worriers ;-)
Saturns? Not what I would call exceptional. The Prizm and Vibe are not really GM designs, are they? Seems a lot of products made in places with non-first world wage structures are not very loved.
"How is that any different from any other industry?"
This is an auto forum, isn't it? Nice attempt at a deflection.
" you can buy their shares and go to the shareholder meetings to lodge your protest. "
I can log my comments where I please.
". Their future will indeed be jeopardized"
Just jeopardized? It shouldn't exist.
"So what even if Lexus or MB do not currently have production lines in China? "
Someone said they did, that's all. It's a pretty basic fact to botch.
How 'premium' is Buick in China, really? Are we talking Lexus ES premium or S-class premium? I still want to know which MB and BMW it competes against. Surely against a lowline Chery or something else from hell, a Buick is the best thing in the world. A lot of stuff on the Chinese market would simply not be able to exist in the west.
"Or that simply you do not know better."
Or that I am simply not full of blind deference. Conform! Just sit back and don't worry, these honest and competent suits will save us all. As has been the case for the past 25+ years, glory days are just around the corner.
E-class and C-class models. As far as how they compete with Buick, I don't know. It might interest you to know that Chinese may have different criteria for deciding what constitutes a desireable make. They may feel that the Buick is a better value considering the differences in quality/reliability between the two makes. But I'm not Chinese, so I don't really know how they compete.
We were talking about quality right? Saturns were considered the highest quality small cars from GM when they were introduced in the early 90's. Vibe is actually a Pontiac design, a better looking one than the Toyota twin.
"How is that any different from any other industry?"
This is an auto forum, isn't it? Nice attempt at a deflection.
Interesting deflection. The forum title is actually "UAW and Domestic Automakers" . . . not sure why you brought executive pay and non-UAW employee performance into the discussion to begin with.
". Their future will indeed be jeopardized"
Just jeopardized? It shouldn't exist.
Interesting lack of compassion for one set of employees, the ones who actually making money for the company.
"So what even if Lexus or MB do not currently have production lines in China? "
Someone said they did, that's all. It's a pretty basic fact to botch.
Only further botching your attempt at painting the picture that Buick success in China as a premium brand is because it faces only local Chinese branded products. BMW has been making cars in China for nearly half a decade, and now offers almost the entirely lineup; MB has been selling S class there for over a decade; Lexus had its global launch there.
Surely against a lowline Chery or something else from hell, a Buick is the best thing in the world. A lot of stuff on the Chinese market would simply not be able to exist in the west.
Good try again. A lot of the stuff on the European market would simply not be able to exist in the US either. The point is that Buick is winning in compeition against all the Japanese and Eruopean brands there . . . all of them.
Conform! Just sit back and don't worry, these honest and competent suits will save us all. As has been the case for the past 25+ years, glory days are just around the corner.
Who are you talking to again? There are many competitive hurdles that GM faces, but from Saturn experience, GMAC experience and GM China experience, it is quite obvious that GM's biggest problem is the labur structure and its drain on limited resources in a highly competitive environment. Talks of high pay for a handful of executives (which you even admit is of limited impact on the bottom line) and whether Lexus or MB has a production line in China vs. importing from Japan and Germany (MB is at least building one in China even if not already producing, and BMW has one for half a decade) are just beating around the bushes . . . and what's that word you used, "deflection."
Do not know how to prove it to you but the Buicks are the vehicles for the politicians and business executives of China. They are the cream of the crop and compete against the MB's.
IIRC, the original Saturn exclusive factory was non-union, at least not operating job banks like the Detroit shops do. Some Saturn models production have gone to traditional shops after the Saturn experiement came to an effective end due to lack of resources after the old union shops had to be fed first. I mentioned that shops outside the US, even if union shops, were not operating under nearly as inflexible labor structure as those in Detroit; that statement covered the CAW operations in Canada.
It was union but had a different operating agreement with the UAW. Hourly worked in teams, etc. They recently voted to go back to regular UAW status. In fact:
The CAW actually formed because they could not agree with the UAW. However the people in the plant work very hard and are very willing to help and solve problems. Very little us vs. them attitude.
"Well, considering he is the youngest CEO in the history of GM, I'd say that it did. "
I was being sarcastic. What he "learned" in that article should have been pretty obvious to someone of his position and education. You mean having a great product, controlled costs, and lean manufacturing can help? Wow! Well, if he was there in 1930, I could see it.
I still don't see what MB and Lexus models are manufactured in China. That was my key. IMO, Buick is doing well (and so should Caddy) because the Chinese didn't get the past 35 or so years of marginal product we had to endure. From my experience in Vancouver, the Chinese love MB just as much...oh to have been a MB salesman in Van back in the 90s. I think a good part of W140 production ended up in Van alone. I'm more than pleased to see GM succeeding there. I just don't see the unions as being the sole factor of what prevents GM from doing likewise at home.
Great to hear that they have a amicable labor relationship up there in Canada. Hope they can maintain that amicability and maintain competitiveness (that's really the fundamental issue, if the operation can be profitable, all lot of how to slicing the pie can be easily resolved ;-) over time as legacy cost start to build.
The Saturn experiement (and ultimate failure) illustrated that so long as GM is beholden to old UAW union contracts in a substantial part of their operation, all labor structure reform attempts are doomed to failure. It's the classic case of prisoner's delimma: if I were a production line worker in Detroit, I'd want to be UAW member too simply because if everyone else is, I'd be the first to get fired when the axe falls. That's precisely the problem facing many salaried retirees having their benefits chopped because UAW commitment is an untouchable sacred cow that GM management does not dare to cut first . . . therefore someone else has to get the axe first. Saturn literally starved to death because there was no funds left over for new Saturn models after GM had to fulfill commitment to UAW.
It's a modified body on a Toyota platform. It's a Corolla. The looks are subjective, I'll take none of the three.
"not sure why you brought executive pay and non-UAW employee performance into the discussion to begin with. "
The execs determine what is produced by those UAW workers, and in the long run, the existence of those UAW jobs.
"the ones who actually making money for the company. "
I see your imagination is running wild. The company might have branches that make money, but the suits in charge of the domestic automaking operations have nothing to do with it.
" because it faces only local Chinese branded products."
I never said "only" did I? Perhaps your reading skills have failed you. But I will argue that the decontented Chinese market makes it easier for designs which are judged by many to be too coarse and antiquated in the west makes it easier for these designs to succeed there. A rental fleet LaCrosse must look like a LS compared to a Chery. Of course, sweatshop wages might allow additional contenting...or the company might be overcontenting the cars just to get into the market. Additionally, what are the production capacities of BMW and the import numbers of MB and Lexus compared to GM? There are almost endless variables at play here.
And furthermore, how much profit is the Chinese operation generating for GM? It's not worth a lot if there's no light at the end of the tunnel.
GM executive compensation cannot be defended.
So...which MB and Lexus are built in China? You rail on me when you can't own up to this. Hilarious.
Oh these shrill closet neocons. Maybe we should just repeal every regulation in the labor market, and let everything land where it might. Early 19th century working standards, here we come. And you think your healthcare benefits suck now!
"not sure why you brought executive pay and non-UAW employee performance into the discussion to begin with. "
The execs determine what is produced by those UAW workers, and in the long run, the existence of those UAW jobs.
UAW work rules have just as much to do with what gets produced by those UAW workers . . . in many cases, literally. UAW contracts determines the existence of those UAW jobs, literally. Many of these so-called jobs should have been eliminated long time ago, so that the workers can go forth and find a productive career that is warranted in the free market long before their retirement instead of shortly before their retirement.
I will argue that the decontented Chinese market makes it easier for designs which are judged by many to be too coarse and antiquated in the west makes it easier for these designs to succeed there.
That's precisely the type of thinking that got VW into trouble there in recent years. Precisely the type of thinking that got GM Brazil into trouble more than a decade ago. The biggest contritution Wagoner has made to both GM Brazil and GM China is precisely the opposite: the conclusion that it doesn't pay to make crappy cars in a free market. GM succeeded in Brazil and is now succeeding in China under Wagoner for the same reason: he is willing to bet on innovative products of high quality. In case you did not know, Buick's success was not built on selling old models that Americans don't want; instead, it was built on selling new models with high content, that are only now starting to show up in the US market.
One thing to keep in mind is that, cars are not yet being sold to the average Chinese there, but to the executives types who rack up $10-100k USD savings a year there; net savings, not income; probably more net savings per year than the average car buying Americans do. With a taxi ride in the cities costing a couple dollars on one hand, and the private vehicle license running into thousands of dollars (USD) a year on the other, it simply does not make sense to buy a decontented rental fleet LaCrosse in China unless one is actually running it as a taxicab (even then, the gas guzzling Buick is a poor choice for taxi, except for luxo limo service, in which case a decontented one still does not make sense).
And furthermore, how much profit is the Chinese operation generating for GM? It's not worth a lot if there's no light at the end of the tunnel.
What tunnel are you talking about? GM earned over 400 million dollars from its partnership with SAIC in Shanghai in 2003 alone. Not exactly chump change.
GM executive compensation cannot be defended.
Don't be so sure, with that US$400+ million staring in your face ;-)
So...which MB and Lexus are built in China? You rail on me when you can't own up to this. Hilarious.
I'm perfectly willing to own up to my mis-statement, which should have been obvious since Lexus only went global last year, and is not producing any car outside Japan and NA, yet. I must have been thinking of them being sold in large numbers in China not produced, unlike BMW, which is being produced there. That being said, the difference between MB/Lexus producing cars locally in China vs. selling them by importing from Germany and Japan does not materially change the refutation of your assertion that Buick succeeded there only because junks of Chery are its primary competitions. For crying out loud, MB and Lexus import most of their cars in NA market too (not counting SUV's).
Oh these shrill closet neocons. Maybe we should just repeal every regulation in the labor market, and let everything land where it might. Early 19th century working standards, here we come. And you think your healthcare benefits suck now!
Actually early 19th century did have very stringent regulations in the labor market: namely, slavery, a system enforced by law not free unfettered exchange between free men and women. The sad thing about UAW rules is that, they are practically tying their members to the "land" (capital) just like the slavery and serf systems did.
Many of the cars sold in China are "kitted" up in the home country and assembled in China. Part of the China rules. GM took the tact, as did VW, and partnered with a Chinese manufacturer and built the cars there. GM China does import some products like steering wheels from US but most are built there. Now they have built up enough expertise that they engineer their own cars. The excellent China LaCrosse is based only on the US architecture. Most of the styling part is engineered in China. It is an excellent vehicle. However if it was to be built here in US it would sell somewhere near $40,000. A bit too high for a Buick in the US. The content is just too rich for an american Buick.
"UAW work rules have just as much to do with what gets produced by those UAW workers . . ."
I guess I just can't see it that way. What the suits approve is what the workers make (some suits approve Vettes and Caddys, some approve Azteks and Cavaliers), and if the suits screw up too much, the workers will have nothing to make. We're heading there. Of course, those workers will be left on the street, and the suits will get their amoral parting gifts.
" that are only now starting to show up in the US market. "
Which models? The Lucerne is heading there in a baby step, but as 62vette mentions, that Chinese LaCrosse is not the dumbed down American fleet version. It's funny...the designs aren't world leading in China, yet they really give the air that GM thinks the NA market is lost.
"GM earned over 400 million dollars from its partnership with SAIC in Shanghai in 2003 alone. "
From how much investment? And how much of that is Buick?
"of your assertion that Buick succeeded there only because junks of Chery are its primary competitions."
I was saying that those cars which are not up to the competition in terms of worldwide prestige or innovation look a lot nicer compared to a lowly Chinese car than compared to a lowline US or Euro car. That has to make them an easier sale. I'd be very curious to know the wage and benefits of the average Buick assembler, too.
"The sad thing about UAW rules is that, they are practically tying their members to the "land" (capital) just like the slavery and serf systems did."
We're all headed for serfdom, and it has nothing to do with unions. The end of unions will damage liberalism, crooked conservatives will gain more control, then the pendulum will swing back. People shouldn't expect corporate interests to act in the best interests of anyone but that top 1%. Do you support an unregulated labor market?
Hey george35, what is it you drive? You've yet to answer...troll, indeed.
AP article about GM retirees rejecting having to pay $752/$370 for healthcare during a year!!! The additional costs would be funded out of current worker's raises by $1--if the company survives.
That's $752 family out of what retirement amount??? $80,000 annually for line workers? I would think they also could have saved a few bucks during their 39.9 years of working also instead of spending it all on luxurious living, which some do. They were earning 3-4 times what others with degrees were earning during their 35-40 working years. Sheeeeshhhhh. These folks really want to bleed GM and the country dry, don't they.
"There are rules and then there are contractual obligations".
The UAW members have entrenched themselves in a sense of absolute entitlements. It is understandable then that ANYTHING that decreases their net income /benefits would be soundly rebuffed. To keep peace in the labor ranks management has always given in for fear of losing market share. Well it hasn't worked and probably never should have been perpetuated. But that is history. Today the salaried active and retired ranks at GM,Ford,DC are all going to get hammered even harder to make up for that market share loss. Theirs is a variable part of the equation that can be easily altered. Is it fair? What is in today's market? I cannot see anything really happening until the 2007 contract talks...if then. The Delphi issue I think will be temporarily resolved with buyouts and reassignments. Eventually I think it (Delphi) will be broken up and sold. The possibility of a GM bankrupcy is still in the air. Should that occurr, the ripple effect thru the World Auto industry would be profound. Let's hope that does not happen. I was wondering. Ever ask yourself why health care costs go up so much each year ? I think that the true answer would be very disturbing. Anyone care to comment with a bit of root cause analysis.
"I still don't see what MB and Lexus models are manufactured in China."
The link I provided earlier stated explicitly E-class and C-class models. I don't know which Lexus models are manufacturered (or planned to be) in China.
"From my experience in Vancouver, the Chinese love MB just as much...oh to have been a MB salesman in Van back in the 90s."
We were discussing the market in China between some MB/Lexus models and Buick. Let me make sure I'm understanding you correctly. You feel that because persons of Chinese ancestory in Vancouver love MB, then ALL Chinese should love MB? Other than the shape of their eyes, what do the Chinese in Vancouver have to do with those still living in China? Do you also think that since I'm of Scot ancestory that I should naturally love hagis and golf?
Comments
For those too lazy to look it up....
"it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing."
Brilliant. My hat's off to you sir.
I don't understand your comment.. A lot of cars being sold in US. And alot o people have "disposable income" to buy them. Are you saying that workers at Honda or Toyota in US can not buy cars? I understand your point why you protect unions - You and your family have union jobs. But the way the rest of the country see it - its OVERPAID job! The education, job demand, and economics can not justify that unrealistic salary, benefits and pension demands. And don't bring the argument that CEOs are making millions. I don't say that all of them deserve it, but it can be justified since the way they run the company impact stock prices, profitability, and have direct impact on global economy. I work for one of the largest financial company in the world (its name start with Citi...)and CEO is top ten paid in America with the bonuses approaching billion $. My bonus is barely approaching amount of two pay checks.
Do you think I do not want more?
I thing in my previous post I said that I came to US from Soviet Union. One of the famous quotes from the founder of Soviet Union - Lenin - was that anybody (including kitchen workers) can run a government and country. They implemented that. And you know what happened....
You pick cars based on status? And you drive a domestic? Do you live in 1957?
You can blame it on who ever you want (I blame it on Hillary) but the combination of insurance companies, doctors offices, and liability suits, have created a monopoly that keeps raising the price of basic care, and throwing in needless exams to prevent suits that dont do anything but take up time. The price goes up, and ALL US CO's suffer.
This has lead to an explosion in labor cost, combined with severe increased competition as the Euros and Asians Finally caught up with us in terms of technology. Instead of confronting the monolopist health insurance industry, labor and managmnet are fighting one another. Its going to destroy every industry!
They need to band together and assault the insurace companies (were else... congress) to push for less regulation and the split of large conglomerate corps into baby bells like at&T in its time. These peope have lots of money, but meybe whats left of our homem industry can do this together and fight them off.
The retirenment thing is a nightmare. SAVE FOR YOUR OWN RETIRENMNET! Bush had a great idea with the 4% private accounts. If this number could go to 50% sovency problem = solved. People would also get higher returns and 50% would be US protected. The real problem is that people were promised way to much and since mostly old people vote, the rest of us "young" ppl get screwed. This is also a problem to US competetiveness and this I blame on everyone under the age of 60 who would rather cheat on there wives and husbands than raise there children and vote.
These are very serious problems. I don't in any way agree with unions. I have many not so nice things to say about them, they are also a problem. These leeches need to go, but they would not exist without corrupt managment and therefore only together can they solve this problem.
I can't believe bush's retirenment plan did not go through, If our children refuse to honor us, we will know why.
Thats my rant, thanks guys.
You know that adamant position will serve no one in the end.You don't want to go to Canada or Norway because I think you will find much more of a European mindset than you can handle.The SOCIO-DEMOCRATS can provide you with something similar here at a 48% tax rate on your wages if allowed to. Tough Choice ! The bottom line is change. Either accept it or perish. Job guarantees are just not there anymore. Legacy costs have caused the Japanese to come here and for us to look at expanding other markets such as India/China. I think your attitude is akin to a one farrier that refused to see future impact of the auto and the other one that adapted. One perished the other repaired gears.
You will not survive doing simple assembly work in the future. Sorry, I just don't believe it.
Since you have asked, , I have owned: a Porche 911,SL 450,and a Lotus Elan in my younger days.
I still stand by my original comment. I will continue to buy domestic. It is MY choice as is yours. That is not to say the Japanese don't build a good product.
As for credentials....don't go there. You are treading on thin ice.
My definition of domestic is Honda Accord that I have. It designed for USA only, build here in Ohio, by American workers with majority of components built in USA. This is an American car.
So what American car do you own?
"You seem to like things that are "thick" in construction while I prefer them to be "correct". I hope those selections are not indicative of your logic process."
Are you kidding? Are you saying I choose incorrect cars? Well, the 220SE fintail, bought for a pittance when I was in high school and now is a hobby car, was certainly the most advanced sedan on the planet at introduction. It's been off the road as a daily car now for almost 5 years. I've spent $0 on it during that time, save for fluid changes. I think I made a decent choice, especially on a dollars/fun equation.
SL 450? that's all I needed to know.
"You are treading on thin ice."
Check yourself. I sincerely doubt you have the means to make such a statement. Don't overestimate your power. Good day to you.
Rocky
P.S.
I guess I will perish, but it won't be done quietly.
Since I realize that the Japanese are playing a shrewd legacy game with us,it is only a matter of time. In 10-15 years the anguished cry of poor US retired workers who worked for JAPANESE owners will be heard. And you know what? We will be standing around in disbelief as a nation!
Many "domestics" are made outside union shops or imported altogether, like from Canada.
Why have these apparently fairly compensated suits been so unable to fix the problem? Now that would be earning their salary. Maybe if these people would work with the idea that their future is on the line...
Their futures are indeed on the line. The retirement benefits of the salaried employees are far more vulnerable than those of the union members as evidenced in the recent past. Not all problems of the world is however fixable; say, even if you are the best football coach in the world, you are not going to make a dozen 120-lb guys win the Superbowl regardless how good your coaching skills are. Given the inflexible union labor structure, nobody in the world can fix the problem without threat of bankruptcy make the union inflexbility a thing of the past first . . . after that, we can see how good the management really is when they are tied down by the dead weight. From past experience, both from their performance in China (the world's 2nd largest auto market) and their performance at GMAC (one of the largest consumer and commercial lending institutions), they seem to be able to do quite well.
You perk up when corporate higher-ups are bashed, there is some kind of sympathy there.
Do incompetent managers exist? Of course they do. You however named Rick Wagoner without knowing a thing about what he has done. Considering his track record of turning around GM Brazil in the 90's, and his big bet in China paying off to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars last year, you were obviously barking up the wrong tree.
There will be a constant shedding of employees who might pose expense due to injuries or health in the future and then the age purge will start, if it hasn't already. They will keep their employees younger and healthier; to heck with others. The dismissals will be under many guises for reasons.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
In that case, I hope that the UAW rank-and-file are practicing their Spanish, Korean and Chinese (probably Mandarin would be best), because those will be the languages in the neighborhoods where the Big 2.5 will be building their plants.
(Oh, that's right -- there won't be a UAW in those places. Oh, well.)
Incidentally, many of the profits earned by automakers are paid to fund capital investments and to the shareholders, the latter of which are generally investment houses throughout the western world, including the US.
And it's a good thing when they earn profits, because some of the profits earned here will be routed to the treasury in the form of taxes. Compare that to GM, which taxpayers are subsidizing with its billions of dollars in write-offs. (Unfortunately, companies that lose money don't pay income taxes.)
Retirement benefits for the bigwigs are of no matter, not when an amoral lump sum payment exists at the time of job termination. I do think in time that the companies will collapse to the point where union demands are meaningless. But somehow I am not willing to hold my breath on this platoon of suits to right the ship. I'll wager we'll get the same old stories of the best times being right around the corner. The dead weight is just as much those calling the shots.
I still haven't seen what exactly Wagoner implemented in Brazil or China, just as I haven't seen any data on Chinese-built MB and Lexus. Apparently I am barking up an invisible tree.
Please notice, I blame the union labor structure, the work rules, not necessarily every individual union members. Union labor structure is a system that promotes mediocrity and irresponsibility. Union labor rules make it impossible to fire, hire and retrain workers in response to market needs as well as getting in the way of achieving a disciplined and constantly improving work force. That is the problem. I'm not calling you "H.S drop-outs" at all; however, any H.S. drop-out who happens to be a union member reading newspaper all day can draw just as big a check as you even if you are working all tail off all day long on the production line . . . doesn't that rile you up?
It should.
I got the $64K question for ya'll. Who in the hell is going to buy the products made in this country when most of the good paying jobs are exported ????? When ordinary folks don't have extra disposable income to purchase luxury's this great country's wheels will slow down
A job has to be justified by what it produces in the free market place. Otherwise, suppose the government gives everyone a "good paying job," say $250k/yr, do you really think that is going to work? The only result of such a policy would be hyper-inflation that destroy all the savers and retirees. Defining "a good paying job" by the dollar amount is meaningless . . . "A good paying job" has to be defined by what the pay can purchase in the real market place. $150k a year and each T-shirt costs $15 is no different from $30k a year and each T-shirt costs $3 (T-shirts is used as a representative of the consumer basket).
How exactly does that definition bolster your argument? seeing that many of their cars are imported and made in non-union shops.
I know you love to rail on "the bigwigs" and "platoon of suits." Did you realize that "the bigwigs" are few and far in between, and the fixed part of their total compesation is relatively miniscule in the grand scheme of things, and the variable portion (which can get big in good days) is often heavily tied to company performance. The "platoons of suits" salaried workers, their fate is actually quite a bit more precarious than the union workers if the company goes down.
I still haven't seen what exactly Wagoner implemented in Brazil or China, just as I haven't seen any data on Chinese-built MB and Lexus. Apparently I am barking up an invisible tree.
You are just being a heckling spoil-sport. Why don't you go find what Wagoner did and screwed up. Wagoner was the managing director of GM Brazil and creditted with its turn-around. Wagoner was at the forefront of betting big in China. BMW sells almost its entire lineup in China, and has a factory that turns out 3 and 5 series there; MB is in the midst of building a factory (or is it already online now?); MB has been selling cars in China since the early 1990's, including the S class; Lexus started its worldwide launch in China (it was a US-only brand before then); Toyota Crowns (Lexus outside the US before going global) had been in China since the 1980's. That's quite enough evidence to prove that your original perception of the China market and Buick's competitive envrionment there quite off the mark.
http://www.referenceforbusiness.com/biography/S-Z/Wagoner-Rick-1953.html
"After two years in Zurich, he returned to Brazil in 1991 as president and managing director of GMB. As the leader of GM's Brazilian operations, Wagoner was credited with updating the company's operations in this key South American market. According to Forbes magazine, Wagoner championed the "get current, stay current" strategy at GMB, scrapping GM's previous practice of selling older-model cars in Brazil; instead, he brought the latest models to market there. It was in these two high-level jobs, Wagoner told Automotive Industries, that he learned about the importance of integrating a great product, close cost control, lean manufacturing, and global purchasing. "Both experiences showed me what we could do when we leverage GM's global resources. It significantly molded my thinking and still does today" (February 2001)
There's a lot more out there if you care to look.
"..just as I haven't seen any data on Chinese-built MB..."
http://www.daimlerchrysler.com/dccom/0,,0-5-7153-1-188039-1-0-0-0-0-0-13-7145-0-- 0-0-0-0-0-0,00.html
Which models then, hmmm??
"Did you realize that "the bigwigs" are few and far in between"
Of course, and that has no bearing on the legitimacy of their compensation. It's this simple...they are made into millionaires many times over whether they perform or not.
"their fate is actually quite a bit more precarious"
Because the ones these companies employ really are of little value? Given the products and ideas they imagine...
Dude, you stated that both Lexus and MB have production lines in China, and that these cars are impacting the market. Selling cars and producing cars are not one in the same. Which Mercedes and BMWs are legit competitors with Buick? Which MB and Lexus are made in China? Don't answer questions with more questions. They've been asked once, that's enough.
Of course I am a spoil sport. I am not blinded by fear and faith as some others.
The US has a free market, Japan, China, and Koreahave a merchantilist market that closes them off to our goods and services and forces us to take there products. We do nothing about it. So Japan Automakers sit in Japan knowing they have no serious threat from us or euros (the Luxury cars don't count, they have verry little impact on trade). They play around in our market. Hiring non-union ppl. In 10 or 15 years nothing will happen b/c they are not union. They can be hired and fired at will.
The us needs to change the way we treat countries who shifted there economies primarily to screw ours.
And please don't waste your breath telling me about the honda in Ohio. Most of those parts are japanese, and those workers are under japanese control with an american face. The Japanese do not let GM and Ford make plants like that in Japan.
See, Japan knew that its people could not be trusted, so to insure the health of there industry they limit imports whenevr possible. We, on the other hand are blessed with a govt who lets us make our own descisions. Now, we keep deciding wrong. Every time be buy foreign we spit on our own and our childrens future. We are showing that we don't deserve to live in the paradise that many of us do.
It is bieng slowly taken away from us. Health insurance is a nightmare, foeign companies are controling more and more, out own busiensses are bieng pushed out, and the govt does nothing but issue more debt to China that our children will pay for. Why? Because they are not "man" enough to confront the health care monopolists, shatter the unions cut welfare and have more Americans takecare of there own problems.The car industry is just one battle front.
Look at our trade defecit, its like we are living in a nightmare.
" that he learned about the importance of integrating a great product, close cost control, lean manufacturing, and global purchasing."
Wow, that MBA went far.
Thanks for the 2 year old DC link. Now which models are actually being made, and how do they compete with Buick?
I don't see why this misinformation keeps getting recited on this forum, when it has already been debunked several times offer.
A Honda Accord has 70% US/Canadian content; a Camry has 80%. The trend among the transplants is to increase domestic content; the trend among the Big 2.5 is the opposite.
Everyone, it's OK to have differences of opinion, but making stuff up just doesn't cut it. At least let's have an honest discussion/ squabble that cites decent sources, and doesn't rely upon "facts" that are fictitious.
Nice slogan but inevitably catastrophic when implemented:
Education? Do you mean your kids actually learning useful skills or just sit in schools with minimal lab facilities and being watched over by wardens six hours a day?
Healthcare? Do you mean actually getting a cure or being "taken care of"? It's interesting to note that life expectance doubled worldwide in the 20th century largely as the result of antibiotics. Out of the two to three dozen antibiotics commonly in use for the last 60 years, not a single one was invented in socialist countries (accounting for 3/4 of world population for much of the 2nd half of the 20th century) that had healthcare as their bragging points. All socialized medicine can bring is a false certainty that nobody else in the system will get better care than you do (including nothing at all for everyone), except for of course "the first among equals."
"Real minimum wage"? Is that an oxymoron or what? What is a wage, or money for that matter? It is the cost/power of having someone to do things for you. If the minimum cost is higher, all it means is that you have now less power to have things done for you, if you still have the same amount of savings. Clear? In reality, there is no point even defining a wage by dollar amounts; we can all define a salary or wage by how many times the mandatory minimum wage is instead . . . because that's exactly how many hours of baby sitting you will get for every hour of your time in the office or on the production line.
As for it's about the mighty bucks, what's really interesting is that if you want to emmigrate to Canada, all you need is $300k or so in investment capital. Even the Canadian government apparently knows that money is what makes the world go around. In truth, it's not the money per se, but money is what each of us, free man and woman, signals to the market place what needs to be produced. Absent of that, all the big brother government planners can do is wasting natural resources churning out products that nobody wants, like the union work rule mandates . . . or in an even worse case, like the Soviets used to churn out Lada's, which were literally worth less as cars than as component material.
Likewise, for education, healthcare and wages, we free man and woman can decide much better than any centralized beauracracy without competition.
Saturns are not made in Union shops. The join venture with Toyota making Prizm and Vibe is not covered by the ridiculous union rules that prevail in Detroit . . . they are some of the most reliable GM vehicles. Many GM and Ford models are imported from Canada and Mexico, where even if unions exist have less legacy cost either because the facility is newer or the "job protection" measures are not as extreme.
Of course, and that has no bearing on the legitimacy of their compensation. It's this simple...they are made into millionaires many times over whether they perform or not.
Some executives deserve their pay; some don't. How is that any different from any other industry? Why is the auto industry in so much more systematic trouble than in others? If you don't like the executive compensation at any specific company, you can buy their shares and go to the shareholder meetings to lodge your protest.
Because the ones these companies employ really are of little value? Given the products and ideas they imagine...
Given the success of GM China and GMAC, I'd be reluctant to paint them all with that broad stroke. Their future will indeed be jeopardized if GM goes down.
So what even if Lexus or MB do not currently have production lines in China? (MB has been building a production line there since 2004, not sure about the progress) Does the fact that Lexus and MB import their cars from Japan and German to sell in China help your argument that Buick's success there as a premium car seller is a result of all other brands selling in China being crap? I don't think so.
Of course I am a spoil sport. I am not blinded by fear and faith as some others.
Or that simply you do not know better.
Mercantalism does not work. That has been proven over and over again. All Japanese protectionism accomplishes is making sure that Japanese consumers can only afford a lower standard of living despite their higher nominal income. Even Japanese are realizing the problem. They had been suffering from a decade long slump, only recently picking up on hopes that their market is finally opening up.
BTW, the fastest rising Japanese companies in their latest recovery, the likes of Canon and Nikon, actually out-source their production to the rest of asia, much to the dismay of their own protectionists . . . go figure. Every country has their own worriers ;-)
"How is that any different from any other industry?"
This is an auto forum, isn't it? Nice attempt at a deflection.
" you can buy their shares and go to the shareholder meetings to lodge your protest. "
I can log my comments where I please.
". Their future will indeed be jeopardized"
Just jeopardized? It shouldn't exist.
"So what even if Lexus or MB do not currently have production lines in China? "
Someone said they did, that's all. It's a pretty basic fact to botch.
How 'premium' is Buick in China, really? Are we talking Lexus ES premium or S-class premium? I still want to know which MB and BMW it competes against. Surely against a lowline Chery or something else from hell, a Buick is the best thing in the world. A lot of stuff on the Chinese market would simply not be able to exist in the west.
"Or that simply you do not know better."
Or that I am simply not full of blind deference. Conform! Just sit back and don't worry, these honest and competent suits will save us all. As has been the case for the past 25+ years, glory days are just around the corner.
You're welcome. See how easy it it to be pleasant?
"Wow, that MBA went far."
Well, considering he is the youngest CEO in the history of GM, I'd say that it did.
"Now which models are actually being made, and how do they compete with Buick?"
According to this link....
http://www.daimlerchrysler.com.cn/dc_china/0,,0-337-164892-1-164895-1-0-0-0-0-0-- 2615-164892-0-0-0-0-0-0-0,00.html
E-class and C-class models. As far as how they compete with Buick, I don't know. It might interest you to know that Chinese may have different criteria for deciding what constitutes a desireable make. They may feel that the Buick is a better value considering the differences in quality/reliability between the two makes. But I'm not Chinese, so I don't really know how they compete.
"How is that any different from any other industry?"
This is an auto forum, isn't it? Nice attempt at a deflection.
Interesting deflection. The forum title is actually "UAW and Domestic Automakers" . . . not sure why you brought executive pay and non-UAW employee performance into the discussion to begin with.
". Their future will indeed be jeopardized"
Just jeopardized? It shouldn't exist.
Interesting lack of compassion for one set of employees, the ones who actually making money for the company.
"So what even if Lexus or MB do not currently have production lines in China? "
Someone said they did, that's all. It's a pretty basic fact to botch.
Only further botching your attempt at painting the picture that Buick success in China as a premium brand is because it faces only local Chinese branded products. BMW has been making cars in China for nearly half a decade, and now offers almost the entirely lineup; MB has been selling S class there for over a decade; Lexus had its global launch there.
Surely against a lowline Chery or something else from hell, a Buick is the best thing in the world. A lot of stuff on the Chinese market would simply not be able to exist in the west.
Good try again. A lot of the stuff on the European market would simply not be able to exist in the US either. The point is that Buick is winning in compeition against all the Japanese and Eruopean brands there . . . all of them.
Conform! Just sit back and don't worry, these honest and competent suits will save us all. As has been the case for the past 25+ years, glory days are just around the corner.
Who are you talking to again? There are many competitive hurdles that GM faces, but from Saturn experience, GMAC experience and GM China experience, it is quite obvious that GM's biggest problem is the labur structure and its drain on limited resources in a highly competitive environment. Talks of high pay for a handful of executives (which you even admit is of limited impact on the bottom line) and whether Lexus or MB has a production line in China vs. importing from Japan and Germany (MB is at least building one in China even if not already producing, and BMW has one for half a decade) are just beating around the bushes . . . and what's that word you used, "deflection."
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060304/AUTO01/603040336/1148- /AUTO01
http://www15.inetba.com/saturnuaw/filecabinet/Satfile/saturnhome.htm
http://www.saturnfans.com/Company/2004/contractdismantled.shtml
The CAW actually formed because they could not agree with the UAW. However the people in the plant work very hard and are very willing to help and solve problems. Very little us vs. them attitude.
Thanks!
Back to the fray!
I was being sarcastic. What he "learned" in that article should have been pretty obvious to someone of his position and education. You mean having a great product, controlled costs, and lean manufacturing can help? Wow! Well, if he was there in 1930, I could see it.
I still don't see what MB and Lexus models are manufactured in China. That was my key. IMO, Buick is doing well (and so should Caddy) because the Chinese didn't get the past 35 or so years of marginal product we had to endure. From my experience in Vancouver, the Chinese love MB just as much...oh to have been a MB salesman in Van back in the 90s. I think a good part of W140 production ended up in Van alone. I'm more than pleased to see GM succeeding there. I just don't see the unions as being the sole factor of what prevents GM from doing likewise at home.
The politician part I can believe, given Buick's past in China.
http://www.mercedes-benz.com.cn/amw/emb/zh/0,,0-327-152660-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-2205-- 0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0,00.html
gm china website
http://www.gmchina.com/products/buick/english/index.htm
china buick website
http://www.buick.com.cn/
The Saturn experiement (and ultimate failure) illustrated that so long as GM is beholden to old UAW union contracts in a substantial part of their operation, all labor structure reform attempts are doomed to failure. It's the classic case of prisoner's delimma: if I were a production line worker in Detroit, I'd want to be UAW member too simply because if everyone else is, I'd be the first to get fired when the axe falls. That's precisely the problem facing many salaried retirees having their benefits chopped because UAW commitment is an untouchable sacred cow that GM management does not dare to cut first . . . therefore someone else has to get the axe first. Saturn literally starved to death because there was no funds left over for new Saturn models after GM had to fulfill commitment to UAW.
That's nice. Today?
"Vibe is actually a Pontiac design"
It's a modified body on a Toyota platform. It's a Corolla. The looks are subjective, I'll take none of the three.
"not sure why you brought executive pay and non-UAW employee performance into the discussion to begin with. "
The execs determine what is produced by those UAW workers, and in the long run, the existence of those UAW jobs.
"the ones who actually making money for the company. "
I see your imagination is running wild. The company might have branches that make money, but the suits in charge of the domestic automaking operations have nothing to do with it.
" because it faces only local Chinese branded products."
I never said "only" did I? Perhaps your reading skills have failed you. But I will argue that the decontented Chinese market makes it easier for designs which are judged by many to be too coarse and antiquated in the west makes it easier for these designs to succeed there. A rental fleet LaCrosse must look like a LS compared to a Chery. Of course, sweatshop wages might allow additional contenting...or the company might be overcontenting the cars just to get into the market. Additionally, what are the production capacities of BMW and the import numbers of MB and Lexus compared to GM? There are almost endless variables at play here.
And furthermore, how much profit is the Chinese operation generating for GM? It's not worth a lot if there's no light at the end of the tunnel.
GM executive compensation cannot be defended.
So...which MB and Lexus are built in China? You rail on me when you can't own up to this. Hilarious.
Oh these shrill closet neocons. Maybe we should just repeal every regulation in the labor market, and let everything land where it might. Early 19th century working standards, here we come. And you think your healthcare benefits suck now!
Have a great day.
The execs determine what is produced by those UAW workers, and in the long run, the existence of those UAW jobs.
UAW work rules have just as much to do with what gets produced by those UAW workers . . . in many cases, literally. UAW contracts determines the existence of those UAW jobs, literally. Many of these so-called jobs should have been eliminated long time ago, so that the workers can go forth and find a productive career that is warranted in the free market long before their retirement instead of shortly before their retirement.
I will argue that the decontented Chinese market makes it easier for designs which are judged by many to be too coarse and antiquated in the west makes it easier for these designs to succeed there.
That's precisely the type of thinking that got VW into trouble there in recent years. Precisely the type of thinking that got GM Brazil into trouble more than a decade ago. The biggest contritution Wagoner has made to both GM Brazil and GM China is precisely the opposite: the conclusion that it doesn't pay to make crappy cars in a free market. GM succeeded in Brazil and is now succeeding in China under Wagoner for the same reason: he is willing to bet on innovative products of high quality. In case you did not know, Buick's success was not built on selling old models that Americans don't want; instead, it was built on selling new models with high content, that are only now starting to show up in the US market.
One thing to keep in mind is that, cars are not yet being sold to the average Chinese there, but to the executives types who rack up $10-100k USD savings a year there; net savings, not income; probably more net savings per year than the average car buying Americans do. With a taxi ride in the cities costing a couple dollars on one hand, and the private vehicle license running into thousands of dollars (USD) a year on the other, it simply does not make sense to buy a decontented rental fleet LaCrosse in China unless one is actually running it as a taxicab (even then, the gas guzzling Buick is a poor choice for taxi, except for luxo limo service, in which case a decontented one still does not make sense).
And furthermore, how much profit is the Chinese operation generating for GM? It's not worth a lot if there's no light at the end of the tunnel.
What tunnel are you talking about? GM earned over 400 million dollars from its partnership with SAIC in Shanghai in 2003 alone. Not exactly chump change.
GM executive compensation cannot be defended.
Don't be so sure, with that US$400+ million staring in your face ;-)
So...which MB and Lexus are built in China? You rail on me when you can't own up to this. Hilarious.
I'm perfectly willing to own up to my mis-statement, which should have been obvious since Lexus only went global last year, and is not producing any car outside Japan and NA, yet. I must have been thinking of them being sold in large numbers in China not produced, unlike BMW, which is being produced there. That being said, the difference between MB/Lexus producing cars locally in China vs. selling them by importing from Germany and Japan does not materially change the refutation of your assertion that Buick succeeded there only because junks of Chery are its primary competitions. For crying out loud, MB and Lexus import most of their cars in NA market too (not counting SUV's).
Oh these shrill closet neocons. Maybe we should just repeal every regulation in the labor market, and let everything land where it might. Early 19th century working standards, here we come. And you think your healthcare benefits suck now!
Actually early 19th century did have very stringent regulations in the labor market: namely, slavery, a system enforced by law not free unfettered exchange between free men and women. The sad thing about UAW rules is that, they are practically tying their members to the "land" (capital) just like the slavery and serf systems did.
I guess I just can't see it that way. What the suits approve is what the workers make (some suits approve Vettes and Caddys, some approve Azteks and Cavaliers), and if the suits screw up too much, the workers will have nothing to make. We're heading there. Of course, those workers will be left on the street, and the suits will get their amoral parting gifts.
" that are only now starting to show up in the US market. "
Which models? The Lucerne is heading there in a baby step, but as 62vette mentions, that Chinese LaCrosse is not the dumbed down American fleet version. It's funny...the designs aren't world leading in China, yet they really give the air that GM thinks the NA market is lost.
"GM earned over 400 million dollars from its partnership with SAIC in Shanghai in 2003 alone. "
From how much investment? And how much of that is Buick?
"of your assertion that Buick succeeded there only because junks of Chery are its primary competitions."
I was saying that those cars which are not up to the competition in terms of worldwide prestige or innovation look a lot nicer compared to a lowly Chinese car than compared to a lowline US or Euro car. That has to make them an easier sale. I'd be very curious to know the wage and benefits of the average Buick assembler, too.
"The sad thing about UAW rules is that, they are practically tying their members to the "land" (capital) just like the slavery and serf systems did."
We're all headed for serfdom, and it has nothing to do with unions. The end of unions will damage liberalism, crooked conservatives will gain more control, then the pendulum will swing back. People shouldn't expect corporate interests to act in the best interests of anyone but that top 1%. Do you support an unregulated labor market?
Hey george35, what is it you drive? You've yet to answer...troll, indeed.
That's $752 family out of what retirement amount??? $80,000 annually for line workers? I would think they also could have saved a few bucks during their 39.9 years of working also instead of spending it all on luxurious living, which some do. They were earning 3-4 times what others with degrees were earning during their 35-40 working years. Sheeeeshhhhh. These folks really want to bleed GM and the country dry, don't they.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The UAW members have entrenched themselves in a sense of absolute entitlements. It is understandable then that ANYTHING that decreases their net income /benefits would be soundly rebuffed. To keep peace in the labor ranks management has always given in for fear of losing market share. Well it hasn't worked and probably never should have been perpetuated. But that is history.
Today the salaried active and retired ranks at GM,Ford,DC are all going to get hammered even harder to make up for that market share loss. Theirs is a variable part of the equation that can be easily altered.
Is it fair? What is in today's market?
I cannot see anything really happening until the 2007 contract talks...if then. The Delphi issue I think will be temporarily resolved with buyouts and reassignments. Eventually I think it (Delphi) will be broken up and sold.
The possibility of a GM bankrupcy is still in the air. Should that occurr, the ripple effect thru the World Auto industry would be profound. Let's hope that does not happen.
I was wondering. Ever ask yourself why health care costs go up so much each year ? I think that the true answer would be very disturbing. Anyone care to comment with a bit of root cause analysis.
http://www.thecarconnection.com/Auto_News/Auto_News/Wagoner_Rumors_Start_to_Swir- l.S175.A10110.html
Really?
"I still don't see what MB and Lexus models are manufactured in China."
The link I provided earlier stated explicitly E-class and C-class models. I don't know which Lexus models are manufacturered (or planned to be) in China.
"From my experience in Vancouver, the Chinese love MB just as much...oh to have been a MB salesman in Van back in the 90s."
We were discussing the market in China between some MB/Lexus models and Buick. Let me make sure I'm understanding you correctly. You feel that because persons of Chinese ancestory in Vancouver love MB, then ALL Chinese should love MB? Other than the shape of their eyes, what do the Chinese in Vancouver have to do with those still living in China? Do you also think that since I'm of Scot ancestory that I should naturally love hagis and golf?