You've asked me a point blank question (fairly enough), so I'll ask you one:
Do you think Person 'A' should be paid (whether in salary, benefits, or a combination thereof) MORE than Person 'B' even if Person 'B' is doing the same job with the same performance and has the same qualifications?
I guess that depends on how you as a person see it. If person A is making a better salary, benefits, etc than Person B then to some person B is doing it cheaper and should be the standard. "That is a buisness point of view"
How about Person C who can do it cheaper than both Person A and Person B in China, but can make the products as good as both A and B ?????
Also what if you had person D who can make the product in the U.S. and do it for less than A and B, but can't do it less than C so should that be the standard.
Where I'm going with this is if you continue to take less in pretty much everything you will hurt the country because one person will be making all the profit, instead of it getting spread around. The CEO only needs one refridgerator, one stove, 1-2 new cars, etc.
If that CEO pays his workers more and takes a little less than his employees, they have disposable income which gives the government tax revenue, keeps the wheels turning on our great economy. People like myself then also can afford to go on vacations, buy cars, buy homes, "and their is alot more of us workers than the few big shots at the top".
I hope that makes some sense and I could of probably done a better job of explaining myself.
If I may speculate,you COULDN'T do his job even WITH his compensation. And I would say a most of the population couldn't do it either. Sorry,neither could I !
Who's Job, Rick Wagoners ???? I have no doubt in my mind that I could do Rick Wagoners job with a few bright minds around me.
All it would take is a numbers guy, and a few diverse car guys, a few good marketers, and a good economist, to crunch the numbers and engineer cars people like Lemko, Socala4, rorr, dieselone, and even Loren, would want to own.
Do you know how much Toyota or Honda workers make in US in comparison to UAW workers for the same type of work? For some reason I do not believe that they are getting paid $8 per hour. And paying for your health care and pension is something that the rest of the country does. I live in NJ where price of the small townhouse in good area is over $500K, and I do not hold my employer by the throat demanding free benefits. If you familiar with NY transit union strike past Christmas, you should know that they got no "0" public support for their unrealistic demands. You do not like how much CEO of the companies are making? Tough luck. This a capitalist society - you made it to the top - you make more then who's below you. You criticize China for being communist nation, but UAW is what communism or socialism is all about. I came to US from Soviet Union and we had free education, free pension, free health care. Factory workers salary was more then the doctor salary. Basically we leaved in unrealistic world -- and you know what happened to Soviet Union...
"in all seriousness I wished you someday can get very good benefits if your saying you don't have good ones now."
The concept of employment is a two-way street. The employer offers some combination of wages/benefits. The employee offers his labor. The value of the labor given should match the value of the wages/benefits received. I have no problems with the level of my benefits because; a) I know they are commensurate with the type/level of my profession in this area and b)the wages (salary) I receive is fair and I can afford to pay for these items.
If I don't like the level of my wages/benefits, I am free at any time to seek employment elsewhere. Just as my employer SHOULD be free to replace me at any time should he feel he can receive the same performance for less.
If anyone wants more in wages/benefits, or wants to ensure they are not replaced, it's simple. Increase your value to your employer.
"It all goes back to globalization and how it's lowered wages and benefits in this great country."
Even if I grant that wages and benefits are lower in this country (I don't believe they are), what has happened with globalization (and capitalism) is an INCREASE in the standard of living (and wages/benefits) in 3rd world countries. Ultimately, bringing UP the standard of living globally helps EVERYONE. Specifically, it helps American businesses as more people around the globe can then afford our products.
"I hope that makes some sense and I could of probably done a better job of explaining myself."
I think my reading comprehension took a hike while I read that post. I'll try a more specific example:
Toyota has a brand new plant in San Antonio.
IF GM opened a brand new plant 5 miles away, and was drawing from the same pool of potential employees, should the UAW demand that those employees be paid substantially more, with much better benefits, than what Toyota is paying just down the road? Particularly if Toyota is completely covered up with qualified job applicants?
rorr, dglozman, well why pay you both as an employer when I can get a guy/gal from India who's better educated, I don't have to pay income taxes on he/she for 7 years. I probably won't have to pay him medical insurance or a retirement, since his salary will be worth a bundle back in India since he/she will set aside money to return home.
BTW- They said they would work for a 1/3 rd les so clean out your desk and offer up this suggestion to your employer. Hell they might throw in a few hundred bucks for the good suggestion as a severance pay. :P I'm sure your boss would take you up on the offer.
I've worked at 3 companies in 40 yrs. Not one had a pension plan nor retiree health plan. When you left you were gone. Cya. It just makes you work harder and save harder because it's all on you.
"rorr, dglozman, well why pay you both as an employer when I can get a guy/gal from India who's better educated, I don't have to pay income taxes on he/she for 7 years."
I'd tell my employer to go ahead.
BTW - my cousin had something similar happen several years ago. The engineering company he worked for decided to close his division (very small) and export that work. That went well for the company.....for about 3 months. They then decided to reopen the old division and wanted to hire him back. He decided he didn't WANT to go back....as a salaried employee. However, they could hire him as a consultant.
They did and he is now making SUBSTANTIALLY more than previously.
Who's Job, Rick Wagoners ???? I have no doubt in my mind that I could do Rick Wagoners job with a few bright minds around me.
All it would take is a numbers guy, and a few diverse car guys, a few good marketers, and a good economist, to crunch the numbers and engineer cars people like Lemko, Socala4, rorr, dieselone, and even Loren, would want to own.
Rocky
Rock,
Lets go!!! We'll kick everyone out of the board room and take over.
Seriously. The problem has festered for a long time. I have a buddy who is really into cars and swears him and I could return GM to new heights.
I'm not so optimistic. While it's easy to point to the final product as GM's problems, trying to figure out why GM continually promises to produce desirable cars and rarely delivers is more challenging.
Making GM more productive, desirable, and profitable is probably as challenging as fixing our government.
The problems run deep and Wagoner is the latest in a long line of CEO's that have yet to right the ship.
Rock I guarantee you one thing. We couldn't do any worse and we wouldn't cost nearly as much.
"Do you know how much Toyota or Honda workers make in US in comparison to UAW workers for the same type of work?"
Average wage of hourly employees at Toyota's Georgetown, KY plant (Camry, Solara, Avalon) is $48,000 per year salary. I don't know what the benefits are. Not as good as UAW but I'm sure competitive in the area where the plant is.
Every year they raffle off 15 brand new Camrys to associates who have perfect attendance. Over 75% of the hourly workforce qualify for the raffle!
If you haven't read this book yet, you should. This lays it all out for you. You may not like what you read but it's all factual and there's nothing you or I or anyone can do about it.
If you have a "fungible" job, i.e., a job that doesn't have to be performed at a particular location, then your job is a candidate for oursourcing or off-shoring to a lower cost labor market. You better be able to provide your employer with value he can't get somewhere else at a lower cost or eventually he will do it.
People can do things...maybe not legal things...we'll see more of it as time goes on...
And I think A LOT of people here could do no worse than Wagoner at much less pay. He hasn'tbeen shown to be worth his bloated compensation, especially over the long term.
"People can do things...maybe lot legal things...we'll see more of it as time goes on... "
Which would only delay the inevitable...
"And I think A LOT of people here could do no worse than Wagoner at much less pay."
Quite possible. But I think the idea is not necessarily to do no worse. I think the idea is to do BETTER.
The guys in those positions didn't get there by being stupid. And I have faith (perhaps misplaced) that they ARE trying to right the ship. After all, just think what their bloated compensation might be if GM started regaining market share at the expense of Toyota.
"The guys in those positions didn't get there by being stupid"
Yeah, they also knew the right people and made the right longterm connections. That's all the credit I can give. I see no proof of special intelligence or competency.
Suits like Wagoner (and egomaniac Lutz) and the rest of their kind need to put up or shut up. The ball is in their court. Let's see this ship be righted.
"just think what their bloated compensation might be if GM started regaining market share at the expense of Toyota. "
They'd actually deserve their pay for once in their lives.
Read the book last year. It is very discomforting. I didn't say inaccurate. The days of assembly labor or ANYTHING that can be fabricated/assembled elsewhere and delivered for a lower cost is subject to outsourcing. Technical ,Engineering and IT services are ESPECIALLY vulnerable . The bottom line is unless you have a job that cannot be done ANYWHERE cheaper,faster or more efficiently your job is at severe risk . Not a pretty picture for those whose abilities will not get them up to even the "first"rung of the ladder of job survival. It is even sadder if they are too naive or sheltered to understand it. I hate to see us lose our manufacturing capability. All nations that have become totally subservient to the products of other countries have perished. It is scarey but it is very real.
Outsourcing of jobs which can be done just as competently elsewhere for substantially less money.
"Yeah, they also knew the right people and made the right longterm connections."
Well, I'd like to think they knew SOMETHING about the business of building cars. Maybe I'm giving them too much credit. But closing down UAW American plants to open non-UAW non-American plants makes a certain amount of business sense. What's amazing is the intelligence exhibited by the GM fans waving the pro-American banner while GM does this.
"They'd actually deserve their pay for once in their lives."
Like I said before rorr, It depends on which point of view you see life. I feel everyone who works hard deserves to be compensated very well. Unions protect workers from being fired, because your not a "at will" employee. I've been fired in a non-union shop before because my boss wanted to replace me with his just graduated son. This is one of the many reasons why I believe seniority means something. Just like lemko says why lower wages etc. when the lower guy should come up to their level I guess that's by socalist view on life. I want every american to be well off. If everyone is "well off" when compared to other country's we can use are stroke to influence are way of life on corrupt foreign governments that treat human beings inhumane or better word like slaves.
Their's a big difference between socialism and communism pal. Look at Germany, Norway, England, Canada, Switzerland, etc and look at Russia. Granted Russia is run by a bunch of corrupt people. I'm not going to put full blame on Putin. I actually like him somewhat. Russia has so many natural resources that haven't been tapped. If Russia would tap these resources especially farming they would raise their wealth. I dunno why they don't ? :confuse: It would hurt are agriculture very bad with the amount of grain Russia could produce.
"I feel everyone who works hard deserves to be compensated very well."
Yes. The problem is that 'works hard' and 'compensated very well' are (at best) nebulous terms.
Why shouldn't a person in India who 'works hard' be 'compensated very well'? Or is that concept to be reserved strictly for Americans?
Personally, I believe that everyone, American or foreign, should be compensated based on the value they provide. If a Pakistani can install that windshield using the exact same parts in the exact same amount of time with the exact same success rate, why should the American be paid 10x as much? What VALUE do you add, for the manufacturer, to be worth the additional cost?
Particularly when that manufacturer MUST compete on a global basis?
Are these ugly facts? Sure. But sticking your head in the sand (isolationism/protectionism) simply doesn't work anymore.
Yes because I'm an american first. I do care about other country's. But #1 I'm an american and I want what's best for my fellow countrymen before anyone else !!! :shades: I am a protectionist like the liberaterians. Seal the borders off, English as the only language, and get rid of the garabage in our society.
Lets go!!! We'll kick everyone out of the board room and take over.
Seriously. The problem has festered for a long time. I have a buddy who is really into cars and swears him and I could return GM to new heights.
I'm not so optimistic. While it's easy to point to the final product as GM's problems, trying to figure out why GM continually promises to produce desirable cars and rarely delivers is more challenging.
Making GM more productive, desirable, and profitable is probably as challenging as fixing our government.
The problems run deep and Wagoner is the latest in a long line of CEO's that have yet to right the ship.
Rock I guarantee you one thing. We couldn't do any worse and we wouldn't cost nearly as much.
dieselone,
Pal I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that all of us on Edmunds could manage General Motors better then those cowards in $4K Bruno Armani suits. I know what cars people like. Hell being in these forums I know what makes peoples hearts tick. Edmunds is a great source to see what your average Joe, or Pam wants to buy. I'd hire as CEO a few people to represent GM to come visit Edmunds fans to make the acctual buyers be involved in R&D. Yeah Paris Hilton, the MJ's are influential, but I'd want my REAL customers to feel they were going to help develop their future cars. Feedback from car buffs on everything from the lastest minivan to the newest corvette is the true R&D missing from General Motors.
I growing up in a Union household have no doubt I would have the backing of the Union membership. I as CEO would wear UAW-GM clothing to work and pump up my workforce. Make them feel like they are involved in the decision making process of THEIR company.
I'd also do that raffle of 15 cars like Toyota does to keep the attendence up. Free Shirts with company and union slogans, with an american flag and eagle. "The UAW and GM supports our troops" shirts.
You got to be a motivator when your going to lead. You got to fire up the troops and praise them when you see a good execution. Not just UAW level, but all levels. Gotta let them know they are cared about and not just a number. "Real Teamwork" will make any buisness shine and this is something that is grossly missing from GM and Delphi. Lip service only goes so far before it becomes a monotone.
"Outsourcing of jobs which can be done just as competently elsewhere for substantially less money. "
Oh OK. I don't think I was clear enough when I mentioned less than legal action. It had nothing to do with a strike (although a massive general strike would not be a horrible thing in this country, and as the socioeconomic spectrum continues to devolve, it will probably become reality) - I was talking about nastier actions. If I was some zillionaire good old boy suit, right about now I would be checking out my options in regards to personal security.
"Well, I'd like to think they knew SOMETHING about the business of building cars"
Same here...I'd love to be able to think that. Unfortunately, I see painfully little evidence of any of them knowing anything. The only 'business sense' these braying morons show is in the short term...they have no clue about long term viability or sustainability. Their products are proof.
Once they can walk the walk, I will feel different. Until then, their positions and salaries cannot be justified.
I like your enthusiasm, unfortunately there is more to running GM than keeping the UAW members happy. They are called shareholders. One of the unfortunate side effects of being a publically traded company is trying to impress the shareholders every quarter and dealing with the "board of directors". They'd have you/us fired the first day unfortunately.
Now the union members do have enough pension assets to buy out GM. Granted, it's more complicated than that, but wouldn't it be interesting to see GM be employee owned and operated. This concept was slightly covered in last months Fortune magazine. I think the idea was ruled out due to the retirees being a little nervous about their pension assets being spent.
The employee owned GM could then re-release the "An American Revolution" advertisements.
Didn't United Airlines employees own the airlines?
Good question, I believe they are, at least they were, didn't seem to work to well did it?
I don't know the details, but if employee ownership was an option for GM, the current managment would need to be thrown to the curb before I'd vote for any of my pension funds to be used for a buyout.
Nothing would be more scary than current managment being paid to run GM with the UAW Pension funds. Talk about letting the wolf guard the hen house.
Generally I'm pro management, but not towards those buffoons.
Well my gawd give them a break. Remember 9/11 destroyed the airline industry as a whole. Yes Southwest presently is about the only company that's making any money, the others are trying to balance airfare and jetfuel= a profit.
I like your enthusiasm, unfortunately there is more to running GM than keeping the UAW members happy. They are called shareholders. One of the unfortunate side effects of being a publically traded company is trying to impress the shareholders every quarter and dealing with the "board of directors". They'd have you/us fired the first day unfortunately.
Well hardest part would be yes to convince the shareholders of "our turn around plan" However "our" buisness plan is better than the one Wagoner is offering up at the momment. The suits are so wealthy and out of touch with middle america they don't know obviously how to give products that average americans want.
For example when GM signed off on the 04' Grand Prix, didn't they look at the Acura TL and say "boy are Grand Prix isn't close to the Acura TL or Honda Accord" ?????
My ranting about the UAW wasn't just to please them. It was to "fire them up" like Bill Cohwer does for the Steelers. Make them as a whole buy into the buisness plan. Let them participate in Ok-ing R&D designs.
From my working expierence, you can unite a large diverse group of employees when you make them feel like they are part of the team.
2007 contract
My Offer to the UAW employees.
No raises period, and they get to keep what they got. However we will compensate you through productivity. If you help us reach "X" number of goals we will pay you "X" amount.
Goal Phase (A)="X" amount. If you reach goal phase (B)it includes "X" amount. Goal Phase (C) equals "X" amount.
These goals wouldn't be just shear numbers because quality could be reduced. These goals would be realistic numbers with a extremely low defect per million number, with the ultimate goal being zero
Our responsibilty would be ensuring the right cars made it to the dealerships. The bad dealerships would have their licenses revoked immediantly. No more "Rent a salesmen" in the showrooms, customer service area's, etc.
These are a few of my plans if I and you were CEO. I'm sure you have other ones.
Do you really think that continuing the excuses will solve anything? There are many people that want to say that these types of articles are not correct:
"Japanese car X is not exciting" "The American car Y has better blah blah" "etc."
The FACT remains that consumers are defecting. I suspect that in spite of the excuses, more Americans would agree with this article than disagree. Instead of excuses, what do you suppose GM and Ford should be doing about it?
(And I looking to the American government to help them will substitute for making cars that more people want to own.)
Do you think this current suit crew at GM has the ability to turn it around ?????
No. But I think York may help. A major house cleaning is in order. I'm sure you and I agree on that one!
I had suggested in an earlier thread that just once, GM should aim to produce a car BETTER than an Accord or Camry. Spend whatever it takes. Produce it at a loss to make it competitive if necessary. But get some market perception back that GM can build great cars!
I had suggested in an earlier thread that just once, GM should aim to produce a car BETTER than an Accord or Camry. Spend whatever it takes. Produce it at a loss to make it competitive if necessary. But get some market perception back that GM can build great cars!
That's a wise idea. The company really needs a substantial reworking to clean up the problems. Start cutting redundant models, refocus each of the brands (and kill those that can't be refocused), and focus on making the class leading car in a couple of key categories, i.e. compact sedans and small car) to give them credibility with a younger audience.
Whether anyone can or would do this, I don't know. So much has been mismanaged for so long, I would think that the company would have to hit rock bottom before long-term fixes can be implemented. Rightly or wrongly, I see the workers paying big time if such a fix is to occur.
Realize that there are some common threads that run thru both York and Miller. York however is looking for relatively short term massive profit gains. With this in mind the UAW better believe that their pay scale and gold benefits are history if he has anything to do with a GM bankruptcy procedure. GM has been dismantling the salaried pay and benefit structure for the last 15 years.(Or does everyone think that upper management and common salaried ranks are the same/equal. I can't believe that anyone is that moronic.)
Will York help ? Perhaps. But not without hacking the UAW system as we know it to pieces. Bankruptcy ? SO WHAT ! He will still sell off the pieces and most people will be left with out in the cold. My guess if he gets in control we will see a reduction of 46% of the rank and file UAW members. More if necessary and there will be no "golden goose money" for the workers.
I had suggested in an earlier thread that just once, GM should aim to produce a car BETTER than an Accord or Camry. Spend whatever it takes. Produce it at a loss to make it competitive if necessary. But get some market perception back that GM can build great cars!
Amen to that. Past practices are to meet most attributes of GM's competitors and beat in a few. Unfortunately they aim for the current competitor and the new ones are better and therefore the GM product is behind. Now why doesnt GM aim higher? Been there. Costs money and unfortunately GM is at a cost disadvantage. So they farther and farther behind as sales go down. GM has to bite the bullet and do better than the competitors. They are now doing that with interiors and quality.
No, just wondering what the perceived differences are of "management" and the normal salaried folks. The way GM is set up is that salaried ranks start at about 4th level and work up to 9th. Most Managers or experts in their fieds are 8th and 9th is a level for experts who have worldwide known expertise in their areas. ie a 9th level brake Engineer would be well known throughout the automotive companies as a brake expert.
Now Upper Management is actually above 8th level and is bonus eligible (bonus is a large portion of salary and is at risk). 8th's on up get company cars.
What do you percieve as the difference in whatever it is you were getting at?
Since you are quite familiar with the system (as it is today) let me reply.
The average hourly person (or at least most I have questioned) have a "broad brush" application to the word management. In the minds of many it is anyone at a Level 6 or above. While in a plant scenario this can be misunderstood it is far from the truth . As you are probably well aware the Level 8 begins the start of extra perks (and substantially increased responsibilities.) Those classifications have been markedly reduced and the responsibilities taken over by the next Lower level and so on accordingly,without the perks.
The definition of upper and mid management and salaried have been blurred together by years of UAW indoctrination. So it is not surprising that this happens.
Now what does the UPPER MANAGEMENT have that say a 7th level does not? I think you know the answer as well as I if you are honest with yourself. The better the profits the more lucrative the catagories . Some of these are :
Bonus (as a percentage of base salary-substantially higher) Stock Options (sometimes huge) Good when we are making a profit. Negotiated retirement benefits Extended optional life insurance coverage at retirement Yearly medical monitoring In some cases 'golden parachutes' for either signing on or staying. PEP program (prefered status ) Etc.
GM could build if they put even 1000 bucks extra into each new car.
They are (supposedly) paying an extra 1500 per vehicle in labor costs over the imports. If GM declared bankruptcy, they could ditch the UAW, hire new workers at the same rate the 'imports' pay US workers, put 1000 bucks extra into their cars, and still end up with 500 dollars profit more per car than they do now.
A thousand bucks per car on the R&D side will sure buy a lot of nice features.
Yep, it is very simplistic, but if I were running GM, its a course I would be considering.
"A thousand bucks per car on the R&D side will sure buy a lot of nice features."
This brings up a question I had for awhile: just how much R&D funds does GM spend (either corporate wide or just on N.A. operations) compared to either Toyota or Honda?
Are Toyota/Honda REALLY outspending GM on R&D or not?
Perhaps GM has invested their R&D in the wrong technologies. I know that they have pushed HARD on fuel cell research (with various R&D partnerships with Toyota, Suzuki, and BMW) but I'm wondering how many millions (billions?) may have been spend on product development which won't be realized on the road for another decade (if ever)?
Has anyone found a good source for documenting just how much the various companies spend on R&D? Or is everyone just ASSUMING that GM is being outspent?
The turbine died because it lacked acceleration out of the hole, was very thirsty, and, most importantly, could not meet emission regulations. I think even with mass production, the per unit cost of the turbine would be pretty high, too.
Comments
Do you think Person 'A' should be paid (whether in salary, benefits, or a combination thereof) MORE than Person 'B' even if Person 'B' is doing the same job with the same performance and has the same qualifications?
I guess that depends on how you as a person see it. If person A is making a better salary, benefits, etc than Person B then to some person B is doing it cheaper and should be the standard. "That is a buisness point of view"
How about Person C who can do it cheaper than both Person A and Person B in China, but can make the products
as good as both A and B ?????
Also what if you had person D who can make the product in the U.S. and do it for less than A and B, but can't do it less than C so should that be the standard.
Where I'm going with this is if you continue to take less in pretty much everything you will hurt the country because one person will be making all the profit, instead of it getting spread around. The CEO only needs one refridgerator, one stove, 1-2 new cars, etc.
If that CEO pays his workers more and takes a little less than his employees, they have disposable income which gives the government tax revenue, keeps the wheels turning on our great economy. People like myself then also can afford to go on vacations, buy cars, buy homes, "and their is alot more of us workers than the few big shots at the top".
I hope that makes some sense and I could of probably done a better job of explaining myself.
Thanks for the point blank.
Rocky
If I may speculate,you COULDN'T do his job even WITH his compensation. And I would say a most of the population couldn't do it either. Sorry,neither could I !
Rocky
All it would take is a numbers guy, and a few diverse car guys, a few good marketers, and a good economist, to crunch the numbers and engineer cars people like Lemko, Socala4, rorr, dieselone, and even Loren, would want to own.
Rocky
For some reason I do not believe that they are getting paid $8 per hour. And paying for your health care and pension is something that the rest of the country does.
I live in NJ where price of the small townhouse in good area is over $500K, and I do not hold my employer by the throat demanding free benefits. If you familiar with NY transit union strike past Christmas, you should know that they got no "0" public support for their unrealistic demands.
You do not like how much CEO of the companies are making? Tough luck. This a capitalist society - you made it to the top - you make more then who's below you. You criticize China for being communist nation, but UAW is what communism or socialism is all about. I came to US from Soviet Union and we had free education, free pension, free health care. Factory workers salary was more then the doctor salary. Basically we leaved in unrealistic world -- and you know what happened to Soviet Union...
The concept of employment is a two-way street. The employer offers some combination of wages/benefits. The employee offers his labor. The value of the labor given should match the value of the wages/benefits received. I have no problems with the level of my benefits because; a) I know they are commensurate with the type/level of my profession in this area and b)the wages (salary) I receive is fair and I can afford to pay for these items.
If I don't like the level of my wages/benefits, I am free at any time to seek employment elsewhere. Just as my employer SHOULD be free to replace me at any time should he feel he can receive the same performance for less.
If anyone wants more in wages/benefits, or wants to ensure they are not replaced, it's simple. Increase your value to your employer.
"It all goes back to globalization and how it's lowered wages and benefits in this great country."
Even if I grant that wages and benefits are lower in this country (I don't believe they are), what has happened with globalization (and capitalism) is an INCREASE in the standard of living (and wages/benefits) in 3rd world countries. Ultimately, bringing UP the standard of living globally helps EVERYONE. Specifically, it helps American businesses as more people around the globe can then afford our products.
I think my reading comprehension took a hike while I read that post. I'll try a more specific example:
Toyota has a brand new plant in San Antonio.
IF GM opened a brand new plant 5 miles away, and was drawing from the same pool of potential employees, should the UAW demand that those employees be paid substantially more, with much better benefits, than what Toyota is paying just down the road? Particularly if Toyota is completely covered up with qualified job applicants?
BTW- They said they would work for a 1/3 rd les so clean out your desk and offer up this suggestion to your employer. Hell they might throw in a few hundred bucks for the good suggestion as a severance pay. :P I'm sure your boss would take you up on the offer.
Rocky
P.S.
I expect my 20% "suggestion" commission.
Rocky
"You talk the talk without being able to walk the walk."
All show with VERY LITTLE substance. Or is it ego ?
I'd tell my employer to go ahead.
BTW - my cousin had something similar happen several years ago. The engineering company he worked for decided to close his division (very small) and export that work. That went well for the company.....for about 3 months. They then decided to reopen the old division and wanted to hire him back. He decided he didn't WANT to go back....as a salaried employee. However, they could hire him as a consultant.
They did and he is now making SUBSTANTIALLY more than previously.
All it would take is a numbers guy, and a few diverse car guys, a few good marketers, and a good economist, to crunch the numbers and engineer cars people like Lemko, Socala4, rorr, dieselone, and even Loren, would want to own.
Rocky
Rock,
Lets go!!! We'll kick everyone out of the board room and take over.
Seriously. The problem has festered for a long time. I have a buddy who is really into cars and swears him and I could return GM to new heights.
I'm not so optimistic. While it's easy to point to the final product as GM's problems, trying to figure out why GM continually promises to produce desirable cars and rarely delivers is more challenging.
Making GM more productive, desirable, and profitable is probably as challenging as fixing our government.
The problems run deep and Wagoner is the latest in a long line of CEO's that have yet to right the ship.
Rock I guarantee you one thing. We couldn't do any worse and we wouldn't cost nearly as much.
Average wage of hourly employees at Toyota's Georgetown, KY plant (Camry, Solara, Avalon) is $48,000 per year salary. I don't know what the benefits are. Not as good as UAW but I'm sure competitive in the area where the plant is.
Every year they raffle off 15 brand new Camrys to associates who have perfect attendance. Over 75% of the hourly workforce qualify for the raffle!
If you have a "fungible" job, i.e., a job that doesn't have to be performed at a particular location, then your job is a candidate for oursourcing or off-shoring to a lower cost labor market. You better be able to provide your employer with value he can't get somewhere else at a lower cost or eventually he will do it.
And I think A LOT of people here could do no worse than Wagoner at much less pay. He hasn'tbeen shown to be worth his bloated compensation, especially over the long term.
Which would only delay the inevitable...
"And I think A LOT of people here could do no worse than Wagoner at much less pay."
Quite possible. But I think the idea is not necessarily to do no worse. I think the idea is to do BETTER.
The guys in those positions didn't get there by being stupid. And I have faith (perhaps misplaced) that they ARE trying to right the ship. After all, just think what their bloated compensation might be if GM started regaining market share at the expense of Toyota.
And what would that be?
"The guys in those positions didn't get there by being stupid"
Yeah, they also knew the right people and made the right longterm connections. That's all the credit I can give. I see no proof of special intelligence or competency.
Suits like Wagoner (and egomaniac Lutz) and the rest of their kind need to put up or shut up. The ball is in their court. Let's see this ship be righted.
"just think what their bloated compensation might be if GM started regaining market share at the expense of Toyota. "
They'd actually deserve their pay for once in their lives.
I hate to see us lose our manufacturing capability. All nations that have become totally subservient to the products of other countries have perished. It is scarey but it is very real.
Outsourcing of jobs which can be done just as competently elsewhere for substantially less money.
"Yeah, they also knew the right people and made the right longterm connections."
Well, I'd like to think they knew SOMETHING about the business of building cars. Maybe I'm giving them too much credit. But closing down UAW American plants to open non-UAW non-American plants makes a certain amount of business sense. What's amazing is the intelligence exhibited by the GM fans waving the pro-American banner while GM does this.
"They'd actually deserve their pay for once in their lives."
We agree! :surprise:
Rocky
Rocky
Yes. The problem is that 'works hard' and 'compensated very well' are (at best) nebulous terms.
Why shouldn't a person in India who 'works hard' be 'compensated very well'? Or is that concept to be reserved strictly for Americans?
Personally, I believe that everyone, American or foreign, should be compensated based on the value they provide. If a Pakistani can install that windshield using the exact same parts in the exact same amount of time with the exact same success rate, why should the American be paid 10x as much? What VALUE do you add, for the manufacturer, to be worth the additional cost?
Particularly when that manufacturer MUST compete on a global basis?
Are these ugly facts? Sure. But sticking your head in the sand (isolationism/protectionism) simply doesn't work anymore.
Borders, Language, Culture-Michael Savage
Rocky
Lets go!!! We'll kick everyone out of the board room and take over.
Seriously. The problem has festered for a long time. I have a buddy who is really into cars and swears him and I could return GM to new heights.
I'm not so optimistic. While it's easy to point to the final product as GM's problems, trying to figure out why GM continually promises to produce desirable cars and rarely delivers is more challenging.
Making GM more productive, desirable, and profitable is probably as challenging as fixing our government.
The problems run deep and Wagoner is the latest in a long line of CEO's that have yet to right the ship.
Rock I guarantee you one thing. We couldn't do any worse and we wouldn't cost nearly as much.
dieselone,
Pal I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that all of us on Edmunds could manage General Motors better then those cowards in $4K Bruno Armani suits. I know what cars people like. Hell being in these forums I know what makes peoples hearts tick. Edmunds is a great source to see what your average Joe, or Pam wants to buy. I'd hire as CEO a few people to represent GM to come visit Edmunds fans to make the acctual buyers be involved in R&D.
I growing up in a Union household have no doubt I would have the backing of the Union membership. I as CEO would wear UAW-GM clothing to work and pump up my workforce. Make them feel like they are involved in the decision making process of THEIR company.
I'd also do that raffle of 15 cars like Toyota does to keep the attendence up. Free Shirts with company and union slogans, with an american flag and eagle.
"The UAW and GM supports our troops" shirts.
You got to be a motivator when your going to lead. You got to fire up the troops and praise them when you see a good execution. Not just UAW level, but all levels. Gotta let them know they are cared about and not just a number. "Real Teamwork" will make any buisness shine and this is something that is grossly missing from GM and Delphi. Lip service only goes so far before it becomes a monotone.
Rocky
Oh OK. I don't think I was clear enough when I mentioned less than legal action. It had nothing to do with a strike (although a massive general strike would not be a horrible thing in this country, and as the socioeconomic spectrum continues to devolve, it will probably become reality) - I was talking about nastier actions. If I was some zillionaire good old boy suit, right about now I would be checking out my options in regards to personal security.
"Well, I'd like to think they knew SOMETHING about the business of building cars"
Same here...I'd love to be able to think that. Unfortunately, I see painfully little evidence of any of them knowing anything. The only 'business sense' these braying morons show is in the short term...they have no clue about long term viability or sustainability. Their products are proof.
Once they can walk the walk, I will feel different. Until then, their positions and salaries cannot be justified.
I like your enthusiasm, unfortunately there is more to running GM than keeping the UAW members happy. They are called shareholders. One of the unfortunate side effects of being a publically traded company is trying to impress the shareholders every quarter and dealing with the "board of directors". They'd have you/us fired the first day unfortunately.
Now the union members do have enough pension assets to buy out GM. Granted, it's more complicated than that, but wouldn't it be interesting to see GM be employee owned and operated. This concept was slightly covered in last months Fortune magazine. I think the idea was ruled out due to the retirees being a little nervous about their pension assets being spent.
The employee owned GM could then re-release the "An American Revolution" advertisements.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Good question, I believe they are, at least they were, didn't seem to work to well did it?
I don't know the details, but if employee ownership was an option for GM, the current managment would need to be thrown to the curb before I'd vote for any of my pension funds to be used for a buyout.
Nothing would be more scary than current managment being paid to run GM with the UAW Pension funds. Talk about letting the wolf guard the hen house.
Generally I'm pro management, but not towards those buffoons.
I vote for that.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky
I like your enthusiasm, unfortunately there is more to running GM than keeping the UAW members happy. They are called shareholders. One of the unfortunate side effects of being a publically traded company is trying to impress the shareholders every quarter and dealing with the "board of directors". They'd have you/us fired the first day unfortunately.
Well hardest part would be yes to convince the shareholders of "our turn around plan"
For example when GM signed off on the 04' Grand Prix, didn't they look at the Acura TL and say "boy are Grand Prix isn't close to the Acura TL or Honda Accord" ?????
My ranting about the UAW wasn't just to please them. It was to "fire them up" like Bill Cohwer does for the Steelers. Make them as a whole buy into the buisness plan. Let them participate in Ok-ing R&D designs.
From my working expierence, you can unite a large diverse group of employees when you make them feel like they are part of the team.
2007 contract
My Offer to the UAW employees.
No raises period, and they get to keep what they got.
However we will compensate you through productivity.
If you help us reach "X" number of goals we will pay you "X" amount.
Goal Phase (A)="X" amount. If you reach goal phase (B)it includes "X" amount. Goal Phase (C) equals "X" amount.
These goals wouldn't be just shear numbers because quality could be reduced. These goals would be realistic numbers with a extremely low defect per million number, with the ultimate goal being zero
Our responsibilty would be ensuring the right cars made it to the dealerships. The bad dealerships would have their licenses revoked immediantly. No more "Rent a salesmen" in the showrooms, customer service area's, etc.
These are a few of my plans if I and you were CEO. I'm sure you have other ones.
Rocky
"Japanese car X is not exciting"
"The American car Y has better blah blah"
"etc."
The FACT remains that consumers are defecting. I suspect that in spite of the excuses, more Americans would agree with this article than disagree. Instead of excuses, what do you suppose GM and Ford should be doing about it?
(And I looking to the American government to help them will substitute for making cars that more people want to own.)
Do you think this current suit crew at GM has the ability to turn it around ?????
Rocky
Do you think this current suit crew at GM has the ability to turn it around ?????
No. But I think York may help. A major house cleaning is in order. I'm sure you and I agree on that one!
I had suggested in an earlier thread that just once, GM should aim to produce a car BETTER than an Accord or Camry. Spend whatever it takes. Produce it at a loss to make it competitive if necessary. But get some market perception back that GM can build great cars!
That's a wise idea. The company really needs a substantial reworking to clean up the problems. Start cutting redundant models, refocus each of the brands (and kill those that can't be refocused), and focus on making the class leading car in a couple of key categories, i.e. compact sedans and small car) to give them credibility with a younger audience.
Whether anyone can or would do this, I don't know. So much has been mismanaged for so long, I would think that the company would have to hit rock bottom before long-term fixes can be implemented. Rightly or wrongly, I see the workers paying big time if such a fix is to occur.
Will York help ? Perhaps. But not without hacking the UAW system as we know it to pieces. Bankruptcy ? SO WHAT ! He will still sell off the pieces and most people will be left with out in the cold. My guess if he gets in control we will see a reduction of 46% of the rank and file UAW members.
More if necessary and there will be no "golden goose money" for the workers.
Amen to that. Past practices are to meet most attributes of GM's competitors and beat in a few. Unfortunately they aim for the current competitor and the new ones are better and therefore the GM product is behind. Now why doesnt GM aim higher? Been there. Costs money and unfortunately GM is at a cost disadvantage. So they farther and farther behind as sales go down. GM has to bite the bullet and do better than the competitors. They are now doing that with interiors and quality.
George, could you give some more info here? What are the differences in benefits or are you talking about something else?
Now Upper Management is actually above 8th level and is bonus eligible (bonus is a large portion of salary and is at risk). 8th's on up get company cars.
What do you percieve as the difference in whatever it is you were getting at?
The average hourly person (or at least most I have questioned) have a "broad brush" application to the word management. In the minds of many it is anyone at a Level 6 or above. While in a plant scenario this can be misunderstood it is far from the truth . As you are probably well aware the Level 8 begins the start of extra perks (and substantially increased responsibilities.) Those classifications have been markedly reduced and the responsibilities taken over by the next Lower level and so on accordingly,without the perks.
The definition of upper and mid management and salaried have been blurred together by years of UAW indoctrination. So it is not surprising that this happens.
Now what does the UPPER MANAGEMENT have that say a 7th level does not? I think you know the answer as well as I if you are honest with yourself. The better the profits the more lucrative the catagories . Some of these are :
Bonus (as a percentage of base salary-substantially higher)
Stock Options (sometimes huge) Good when we are making a profit.
Negotiated retirement benefits
Extended optional life insurance coverage at retirement
Yearly medical monitoring
In some cases 'golden parachutes' for either signing on or staying.
PEP program (prefered status )
Etc.
They are (supposedly) paying an extra 1500 per vehicle in labor costs over the imports. If GM declared bankruptcy, they could ditch the UAW, hire new workers at the same rate the 'imports' pay US workers, put 1000 bucks extra into their cars, and still end up with 500 dollars profit more per car than they do now.
A thousand bucks per car on the R&D side will sure buy a lot of nice features.
Yep, it is very simplistic, but if I were running GM, its a course I would be considering.
Turboshadow
This brings up a question I had for awhile: just how much R&D funds does GM spend (either corporate wide or just on N.A. operations) compared to either Toyota or Honda?
Are Toyota/Honda REALLY outspending GM on R&D or not?
Perhaps GM has invested their R&D in the wrong technologies. I know that they have pushed HARD on fuel cell research (with various R&D partnerships with Toyota, Suzuki, and BMW) but I'm wondering how many millions (billions?) may have been spend on product development which won't be realized on the road for another decade (if ever)?
Has anyone found a good source for documenting just how much the various companies spend on R&D? Or is everyone just ASSUMING that GM is being outspent?
At least they tried!
Turboshadow