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The UAW and Domestic Automakers

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Comments

  • There are several Toyota and/or Honda plants in the U.S that do NOT have the local UAW in them (thank goodness). My older brother works for Ford Motor Company, on the assemble line in Sterling Heights, MI. He's been there now 31 years this June.

    We get into arguments about the pros/cons of a union. As one blogger mentioned above, with a union there are specific job descriptions for EVERY little job detail. Non-unionized plants like some of the Toyota an/or Honda (where they've been trying to get in and failed), don't have that specialization for EACH job. My oldest brother works for Honda. His plant is NOT unionized and he loves it. He says they treat him and others GREAT!!!.

    One of the biggest problems facing the Big 3 auto companies is the disparity involving health insurance cost & premiums; as well as pension problems. Depending on the car, there could be up to $2400 difference between an American made car versus a similar Japanese car built here in the states, right from the get go.

    My brother has no deductible or even co-pay on his health insurance plan. His family has the same benefit. I'm glad they'll have to now start paying a co-payment. He earns almost $95 an hour straight time (not including time and half for weekends; double time for holiday's). That's simply crazy; since when should UAW Auto Workers be excluded from paying some sort of health insurance deductible just because they're UAW auto workers. Just like most of us that pay at least $250 per year, with a $10 or $15 co-pay visit.

    No wonder their crappy (unreliable) cars cost so much; you have to pay for all those UAW worker's family insurance (no deductible or co-pays). Well I'm glad senior management negotiated with the UAW to some sort of "reasonable" insurance plan. It also doesn't help that senior management pockets those huge bonuses even when they're having problems - greed.

    The "transplant" auto companies have raised the bar on who it hires. As one reader said, being able to read/write for them is not going to cut it. You'll have to be crossed trained, exhibit excellent team work skills and have an in depth knowledge about multiple duties.

    I guess that's why I've never purchased a vehicle under my brother's Ford "A" plan. I'll just keep buying my Asian or German cars.
  • george35george35 Posts: 203
    Well, don't you know the UAW is not the problem!

    ALL SALARIED and leadership positions at GM/FORD are overpaid and have incredible benefits that defy discription. Just ask ANY UAW member and he will confirm it. The cost of company paid healthcare for the hourly is a 'contract right' that will HAVE to go on FOREVER. Those that agree with that line of thinking must run contrary to the DAWINIAN evolutionary laws. These are the same people that will say that GM or Ford bankrupcy (Chapter 11) filings will only be a charade for public sympathy. Betch'a it will be a rude awakening.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    UAW and USW.. When the steel mini-mills were beginning to sound the death knell for the major integrated steel mills back in the 80's one of the key differences was work rules.

    Others were
    Working conditions
    Pay ( see below )
    Team Concept
    Productivity

    When Nucor Steel began to go after US Steel and Bethlehem it only put its plants in low cost rural areas in the South near transportation. Nice model, sound familiar?

    There were no work rules. Each 'team' consisted of say 10 members. The team survived and succeeded together. All 10 had to do all the jobs of everyone else, from sweeping to moving steel to testing.

    Pay.. was a huge point of contention with the USW vs the non union workers. If memory serves me the USW got ~ $30/hr in 1986; the Nucor workers got ~$18/hr. But if the plant hit its output quota in a week all the workers on a team got a $14/hr productivity bonus!!!

    But... if a team member missed one day of work he didn't get any of the bonus; miss 2 days and his entire team missed the bonus!!! This way one person or one team couldnt slack off and wait on others to do their job.

    These guys worked their a..... off in dangerous conditions with molten steel all around them all of the time.

    But in the end they worked the USW workers out of business and they made more money in the long run than the union people.

    Everything the UAW is going through now has already been seen in the recent past. Don't think for a moment the top managers of GM/F/DC/T/H/H/BMW dont know this. Heck they were buyers from USS and Bethlehem and LTV at that time. Now they buy from the mini-mills. They've seen what works.
  • bobstbobst Posts: 1,783
    Auto, thanks for the very informative post. Many of us don't have a grass-roots view the UAW-GM/FMC/DC struggle and your post helps to fill it in.

    So your brother likes working for non-unionized Honda. Maybe it is partly because he knows he is producing a quality product that is successful in the free market. We all like to feel that we are doing good work that is appreciated.

    When you work at GM and keep hearing how the company is losing money and their market share is decreasing, it must be a downer for the workers.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Posts: 23,705
    Interesting post. Thanks.

    2015 Cruze 2LT, 2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT

  • bobst: You are absolutely correct. My oldest brother's hourly wages are less then my brother who works at Ford. (Being from Detroit, MI I'm attached at the hip with family and/or relatives that work for the auto companies).

    He says Honda management involves line workers in critical decisions, they can stop the line for any quality control issues; they treat all workers the same - with RESPECT; that their job is just as or even more important because they "build" the final product. They also instill that making a "quality product" is because they are a "family" organization and quality comes from within; it will also bring back loyal customers and new ones.

    My Aunt works for Audi/VW in Auburn Hills, Mich at their Corporate Headquarters. She said the majority of Audi/VW plants that do not have a union, are producing high quality products. However, the two plants with a union (located in Mexico) that produce the VW Beatle and the Jetta are having terrible quality issues. Some Beatles are made in Germany, but 80% come from Mexico. I'd be checking the inside of the driver door for where it was manufactured.

    Here's one more big problem I forget to mention in my previous posting. Foreign auto companies like Toyota, Lexus, Nissan, Honda, BMW etc are able to keep their car "divisions" to a minimum; usually 2-3 marketing car divisions, thus saving major money & expenses there.

    Now think about GM they have: Buick, Chevy, Pontiac, Cadillac, Hummer, Saab, Saturn, GMC, (One time Olsmobile), and any other GM line I forgot to mention.

    Come on GM; your GMC Suburban (or whatever they call it) looks and is practically the Chevy Tahoe. Why not combine your car lineups to 3-4 major divisions AND maybe sell a Chevy, Pontiac and Buick under ONE division name. That's what the foreign car makers do and are more efficient and have significant savings again.

    Ford does that too and so does Chrysler. Reduce the total number of divisions to a mangable number. You can still have your uniqueness with EACH car line. Just think of the marketing savings.

    Toyota's car line is: Toyota, Lexus and Scion. I guess GM & Ford never heard of "KISS".
  • dieselonedieselone Posts: 5,729
    Toyota's car line is: Toyota, Lexus and Scion. I guess GM & Ford never heard of "KISS".

    Ohh, they keep it stupid all right!
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    Here's one more big problem I forget to mention in my previous posting. Foreign auto companies like Toyota, Lexus, Nissan, Honda, BMW etc are able to keep their car "divisions" to a minimum; usually 2-3 marketing car divisions, thus saving major money & expenses there

    What are the major money and expenses to have more divisions?
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 5,192
    What are the major money and expenses to have more divisions?

    OK, I'll take a guess:

    1. Advertising. Need to advertise separately for GM, Chevy, Saturn, Hummer, Pontiac, Cadillac, Buick, Saab (born from rebadged jets!!!! - cracks me up every time).

    2. Dealerships - more dealers. More management visits to dealers. More brochures.

    3. Whatever overhead exists at corporate for each division. Do they have separate division presidents, division offices?

    4. Manufacturing. Make 4 sets of taillights to fit on the same vehicle. Make lots of radiator grilles. Various headlight styles.

    5. Design. See #5. Got to design those different taillight lenses, you know.

    6. Management diffusion of focus. Board meeting today. How's Pontiac doing? What is Saturn's age demographic? Have we added any Hummer dealers lately?
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    1. Advertising. Need to advertise separately for GM, Chevy, Saturn, Hummer, Pontiac, Cadillac, Buick, Saab (born from rebadged jets!!!! - cracks me up every time). Absolutely, but GM usually puts their money (aside from Chevy and Cadillac) into model specific ads. this would say drop the number of models which they have and are doing. Buick will be soon down to 4 models. But it is the biggest expense for having multiple brands

    2. Dealerships - more dealers. More management visits to dealers. More brochures.brochures are relatively cheap. Even productin costs is not that much. I am not sure what management is visiting dalerships but there are the field folks. Not a real high costs.

    3. Whatever overhead exists at corporate for each division. Do they have separate division presidents, division offices? The divisions that could be cut (Pontiac, Buick, Saab, Hummer) have reorganized into small divisions. There is one person in charge of Buick/GMC/Pontiac and under him maybe 20 Buick people 25 Pontiac, 30 GMC. So head count is not that high and costs relatively low.

    4. Manufacturing. Make 4 sets of taillights to fit on the same vehicle. Make lots of radiator grilles. Various headlight styles. the days of jsut changing fascias is long gone except for trucks. BUT, there is a costs to develop multiple models on the same architecture. However each model is normally profitable and killing one will just kill volume and therefore raise the costs to all other models.

    5. Design. See #5. Got to design those different taillight lenses, you know. Yes but same answer as 4.

    6. Management diffusion of focus. Board meeting today. How's Pontiac doing? What is Saturn's age demographic? Have we added any Hummer dealers lately? Yes

    All in all GM has too many divisions but to cut a few now would be tough. Cutting Olds taught GM a hard lesson. They lost volume and milions of dollars buying out dealers. To cut divisions it will have to be a slow death and combining of dealers. You can see that is happening as they combine the GMC/Pontiac/GMC dealers. If one of the divisions is cut they do not have to pay the dealers because they still supply the other two divisions. So if Buick does die with it's buyers it will just wither away.
  • grbeckgrbeck Posts: 2,361
    62vetteefp: What are the major money and expenses to have more divisions?

    A big cost is one that doesn't show up directly on the balance sheet. GM must constantly feed products to its many divisions, primarily to keep the dealers happy. Because it can't afford to design unique products for each division, it all too often relies on rebadged models that were never designed for that division in the first place, and thus really aren't true to the division's character (or the character that GM wants to create).

    For example, GM has spread its minivans throughout the Chevrolet, Saturn, Pontiac and Buick divisions. Everyone with at least one good eye can tell that they are all the same vehicle with different taillights and trim. But GM will spend millions trying to convince us that there really is a difference between an Uplander and a Relay and SV6 and a Terraza. The Terraza, for example, hardly fits in with Buick's supposed mission of selling "premium" American vehicles, as its Uplander roots are all too obvious.

    The second examples involves the rebadged Cobalt that will be sold as a Pontiac. Whether Pontiac should even be offering an economy car is a good question, let alone one that so obviously resembles a Chevrolet. But this new Pontiac will soon roll into showrooms, and it will be virtually indistinguishable from the Cobalt. Pontiac dealers may score a few extra sales, but what is left of the Pontiac brand image will be further diminished.

    Thanks to 20+ years of this, both Buick and Pontiac have no more prestige than Chevrolet. They are just two more GM divisions that sell primarily to GM loyalists shopping for the deal as much as for the vehicle.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,994
    I've never heard such ludacris claims in my life. A few months ago their were some big whoppers on wages but $95 an hour wins the highest wage yet award. I congratulate you on spilling you B.S. guts. :D I highly doubt you have a brother working for Ford. If you do, you sure seem jealous of him. :confuse:

    I know Honda is so wonderful. They make such great cars. They take care of their employees and spread the wealth. "Like the trickel down theory" The bottom line is honda workers are a bunch of kiss [non-permissible content removed]'s that think they got it so well because a a few dumb americans and anti-american car magazine editors rank their tin can cars so well because they've been more baught and paid for. The very same goes for this administration, who's been baught by corporate cowards. Well someday when their is a revolt by people like your Ford brother then he will get the last laugh. "burn baby burn" :D

    Rocky
  • lemkolemko Philadelphia, PAPosts: 15,306
    Don't start the revolution without me!!!
  • george35george35 Posts: 203
    Guys,

    You will get YOUR chance. Union strike vote coming up!
    Destroy Delphi & "SHOW 'EM" the UAW can put GM into bankrupcy.
    Right.......your leadership in the UAW is not THAT Stupid.
    If it did allow that to happen,start looking for alternate employment with a whole new set of rules,benefits and pay scales. That goes for even those that don't work for the UAW.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Posts: 23,705
    The local paper has the Delphi unions taking a strike vote-just procedural they say. This is the IUE, not UAW.

    2015 Cruze 2LT, 2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT

  • "Well someday when their is a revolt by people like your Ford brother then he will get the last laugh. "burn baby burn""

    Because destruction of private property always gets a positive point accross... :mad: Think I'll burn my nearest Garbage Motors dealership and then celebrate its destruction while dancing down the street yelling "SEE, THIS IS WHY YOU SHOULD BUY TOYOTAS!"

    Do we really have that much moronic mentallity in the world? :lemon:
  • Hey, maybe we should start a revolt and burn the house of anyone who has a Japanese or Chinese made appliance or electronic device in their house! Go beat up the kids who are wearing those fancy foreign outfits! Oh wait even better, how bout we burn down ANY Restaurant that serves Chinese food or Sushi... Would be a pretty quiet world when all is said and done...

    Put that in your 15mpg Domestic SUV and smoke it :mad:
  • dieselonedieselone Posts: 5,729
    The bottom line is honda workers are a bunch of kiss [non-permissible content removed]'s that think they got it so well because a a few dumb americans and anti-american car magazine editors rank their tin can cars so well because they've been more baught and paid for.

    Come on Rock,

    While I agree the some of the claims and numbers being mentioned are being pulled out of thin air, I expect more from somebody that takes offense when UAW workers are all called "lazy and overpaid".

    Last I checked most people in the good 'ole USA don't work in a union job. I know lots of people that make 2-3x the UAW's compensation package w/o a union. Does that make us all kiss asses and sell outs?
  • socala4socala4 Posts: 2,427
    Excellent analysis. The real problem with badge engineering is that it completely dilutes the value of a brand, because distinctive qualities that give value to the brand are lost.

    There are no longer substantive differences in perception of the different nameplates offered by GM, which effectively means that decades of brand development has been turned to dust. It was a foolish strategy built on cost savings, not on building market share, and the company is now paying for it.
  • Rocky: It's typical someone like you can insert foot into their own mouth. You know jack S*^T. You don't know me or my family you idiot (not that I would want you to anyway). My brother does work for Ford Motor Company in Sterling Heights, Mich plant. Gee - Where did I just pull this plant name from.

    Rocky you obvious never had anyone in your family work in the automotive industry. He started back in 1975 straight out of high school. He makes good money since he's been there 31 years. I also prepared his income taxes the past 7 years since he hates messing with that stuff.

    But being you, I guess I didn't need to say that to you since you already know everyone's business. When he started back in 1975 he started at $11.25 an hour. And over 31 years later, sure he's going to make that kind of money. Why do you think the Ford's & GMs are losing money? Remember about 5-6 years ago when SUV were at their peak sales; they passed out performance bonuses that "averaged" $8300 to each worker on the line. management got even more. Not these days - Oh you knew that too.

    I've lived all my life in Detroit, Mich and 60% of my immediate family and relatives work for one of the Big 3, Honda or Audi/VW. No I'm not jealous. I just hate when my brother makes a comments such as, "As long as I get my iron out - I'll let the QC guys (Quality Control) worry about the detail items". Pay someone all that money and they have a ho-hum attitude about Quality.

    But then again, you knew that since you are "psychic" and are a "know-it-all".
  • "grbeck": I agree. You sight some excellent examples and hit the nail on the head (as they say). The cost of keeping multiple dealerships open, advertising for each make/model within that division; keeping "fresh" products" coming to each division (R&D cost), prototypes, concept cars within each division.

    It's a waste to have TOO MANY divisons. That's just one reason why the Toyotas, Honda, Nissan etc are pulling ahead of the domestic cars.

    I like your points grbeck.
  • Hey "62vetteefp":

    Rocky knows "everything" since he can tell whether or not a family member actually works in a auto factory, or a corporate environment. You keep amazing me Rocky!
  • bobstbobst Posts: 1,783
    Interesting post, Auto. Since I live near Washington D.C., I have no idea what is going on in "real America", and that's why I enjoy posts from guys like you and Rocky.

    By the way, what did your brother mean by, "As long as I get my iron out"?
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Posts: 23,705
    That's a good link. It helps prove why we don't need unions to protect workers as is shown by the foreign brands with their nonunion plants here. The congress and government regulators and top management of corporations will look out for the little people doing the work at the bottom.

    Too bad the auto unions have turned the unions into their own version of our government with top-heavy benefits and pay for the top leaders of the unions.

    2015 Cruze 2LT, 2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT

  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,994
    dieselone, I would never call you that. You also don't have a hidden agenda like him with spilling out more false prophesies than Hush Bimbo. :mad: We might not always agree pal, but the false rants he got away with burned my britches :mad:It seems like some come up with pie in the sky responses and label it the ruth. I'ts flat out Grabage!

    I repect the white collar jobs. Most are verry intellenget and passion to make thei compny grow, some take care of it's employee and have a strong "bond" like a Union.

    Rocky
  • grbeckgrbeck Posts: 2,361
    rockylee: The bottom line is honda workers are a bunch of kiss [non-permissible content removed]'s that think they got it so well because a a few dumb americans and anti-american car magazine editors rank their tin can cars so well because they've been more baught and paid for.

    You obviously have never even set foot in a Honda facility. You have no clue as to what it is like to work there.

    As for Honda paying reviewers to write up good reviews...considering that Edmunds.com, Consumer Reports, Car & Driver, Motor Trend, The Detroit News, Automobile and USA Today have praised Hondas, I'm amazed that the company has any money left for product development, considering the huge amount of cash it must be showering on American automotive journalists for all of those stellar reviews.

    rockylee: The very same goes for this administration, who's been baught by corporate cowards.

    Yes, the same administration headed by a president who drives...a Ford F-350. Or is Honda now making Ford pickups?

    rockylee: Well someday when their is a revolt by people like your Ford brother then he will get the last laugh. "burn baby burn"

    With statements like this, I often wonder if you are an anti-union instigator who is secretly trying to make unions and their supporters look out of touch, arrogant and foolish. If so, I've got good news for you - your plan is working.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,994
    I went of my "rocker" because of all his lies. I met with Honda managers at JCI. I could see how they did buisness. Ruthless killers looking for another desperate good american to go join them in the "Spa" or should I say plant floor. Ethics in Japan are much different than here.

    I guess I will grasp on to my union job, and pray I don't have to go back to work in those sweat shops with no real world benefits, just a good wage and a small bonus. I guess it's better than the Superstore ;)

    Rocky
  • grbeckgrbeck Posts: 2,361
    socala4: It was a foolish strategy built on cost savings, not on building market share, and the company is now paying for it.

    So true...and the damage may now be irreversible. It will be very difficult to convince people that there are meaningful differences among the GM divisions (aside from Cadillac). It will require lots of time and money (for top-notch product)...and GM is rapidly running out of both.

    Unfortunately, the people who made those decisions are either retired in Florida or six feet under.
  • lemkolemko Philadelphia, PAPosts: 15,306
    "Unfortunately, the people who made those decisions are either retired in Florida or six feet under."

    I hope Roger Smith goes down a lot further than six feet! I want that man to go so far down he needs the Hubble telescope to see the devil!
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Posts: 23,705
    What is the difference between GM sharing basic vehicles across marques and Honda using same vehicle across their Honda and Acura badges? I keep reading about the something vehicle in Canada is the Something in the US but isn't sold here or it is in Europe. Then there's the Camry, Avalon, Lexus similarity and sharing. Someone even posted a statement that parts, even seats were shared up the Toyota line.

    2015 Cruze 2LT, 2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Posts: 23,705
    The big gripe on local (Dayton, OH) tv with the talking heads doing on site interviews is the special treatment of management at Delphi with big salaries. The other is that many of those big-salaried people should be fired for mismanagement rather than giving more people at the top more money to stay and suck the company workers dry.

    2015 Cruze 2LT, 2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT

  • george35george35 Posts: 203
    OK. OK I have heard it over and over again about the high pay of certain individuals at Delphi IF THEY EVER get on their feet again. But how much is it in real dollars, NOW ?
    I could offer you 500k a year to work on the line there. The hook is 8% is in real money the rest is in stock options at say $12.00 as share. Interested ? The average line worker does NOT understand how pay is calculated for the upper management. Do you know that Wagoner (by virtue of his position) MUST hold 7 times his annual salary in GM stocks. Go figure it out he has lost 43 % of his net worth in GM stocks alone. I am not saying that some of the yearly salaries verge on the obscene. But are they really?
    Toyota's boss gets a lot less HOWEVER does he get any financial perks from the government and personal adjustments that would his base pay pale in comparison? THEIR system of compensation is not a mirror of ours.

    So do the math. Take out the salary of ALL upper management and spread out down to the guy screwing lug nuts on the wheels at GM/FORD/DChry. What would the average payout become ? I think you will be suprised. Oh, yes,now you have a "ship without a rudder" or navigation in the process. Seriously, think about it and see what it costs on a daily basis to run a corporation the size of Delphi or GM. It is staggering. You can go broke if the reserve cash you hold is insufficient for that operation.It is way into the billions.
  • george35george35 Posts: 203
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -

    February 25, 2006
    Senator Introduces Bill Creating Guest Worker Program
    By RACHEL L. SWARNS
    WASHINGTON, Feb. 24 ? The Republican chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee unveiled draft legislation on Friday that would create a temporary guest worker program that could allow hundreds of thousands of foreigners to fill vacant jobs in the United States for periods of up to six years.

    The draft circulated by the lawmaker, Senator Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania, would also authorize millions of illegal immigrants who arrived in this country before Jan. 4, 2004 to remain here indefinitely, along with their spouses and children, as long as they registered with the Department of Homeland Security, paid back taxes and remained law-abiding and employed, among other conditions.

    The proposal would require employers to attest that they had tried to recruit American workers before bringing in additional foreigners from abroad and to pay prevailing wages. The plan would not place a restriction on the number of foreigners who could take part in the guest worker program. Those workers would not have the right to become permanent residents or citizens.

    The bill is silent on whether illegal immigrants already in this country should be accorded that opportunity.

    The legislation will serve as the blueprint for the first Congressional debate on the future of the nation's illegal immigrants since President Bush called for a guest worker plan in 2004. With his draft, Mr. Specter was striving to reconcile the warring factions within his own party and address concerns raised by business leaders, labor officials and advocates for immigrants who have battled fiercely in recent months over the shape of a proposal that would radically reshape immigration policy and the workplace.

    The debate on the bill, which also includes measures to strengthen border security, is expected to begin in the Judiciary Committee next week. Any legislation that passed the Senate would have to be reconciled with a bill passed by the House in December that sought to tighten security along the nation's borders but made no provision for guest workers or legal status for illegal workers already in the United States.

    "The committee must grapple with a realistic means of bringing out from the shadows the possible 11 million illegal aliens in the United States," Mr. Specter wrote in a letter to his colleagues, saying he hoped the draft would build consensus. "We are a nation of immigrants, but we are also a nation of laws."

    But the proposal touched off a furor among politicians, advocates for immigrants and union leaders across the political spectrum.

    Conservatives condemned it as an amnesty for lawbreakers.

    "By legalizing the millions upon millions of illegal aliens in the U.S., Specter makes a mockery of our laws and crushes our already strained legal immigration system," said Representative Tom Tancredo, Republican of Colorado, who pushed for the border security bill in the House.

    Advocates for immigrants said the plan failed to protect the rights of immigrant workers, who they argue deserve a clear path to citizenship. And the A.F.L.-C.I.O. warned that a guest worker program of unlimited scale would depress wages and working conditions while creating a perpetual underclass of foreign workers.

    "This unprecedented program would put millions of people in a status where they don't get residency and they can't become citizens," said Angela Kelley, deputy director of the National Immigration Forum, an advocacy group in Washington. "At first blush, its a nonstarter."

    Ana Avendaño, associate general counsel of the A.F.L.-C.I.O., said, "From the viewpoint of workers, this is not a good bill."

    The United States Chamber of Commerce praised the draft legislation for addressing the need of many industries for immigrant workers. And Senator John Cornyn, a Texas Republican, who had introduced a more conservative immigration bill, praised Mr. Specter for taking "a serious look at a very difficult issue."

    The furious response by some constituencies to the draft reflects the difficult position confronting Mr. Specter as he navigates the fault lines within his party and committee, with an eye toward a vote on the Senate floor and a conference with skeptical House Republicans, who have rejected calls to legalize illegal workers.

    Jeanne A. Butterfield, executive director of the American Immigration Lawyers Association, said Mr. Specter "has a difficult path to tread."

    Under Mr. Specter's proposal, the guest worker program would be open only to foreigners living outside the United States. Applicants would be sponsored by employers ? though they would be allowed to switch employers during their time here ? and would undergo background checks and medical screening. If approved, applicants would be allowed to bring their spouses and children to the United States.

    Work permits would be granted for three years, after which the worker would have to return to his country for a year and apply again. The guest worker could then be authorized for a second and final work permit for three years.

    Illegal immigrants who arrived in the United States after Jan. 4, 2004 could also participate in the guest worker program, but only if they returned home and applied from their countries.

    Those illegal workers who arrived in this country before Jan. 4, 2004 could stay in this country indefinitely, provided that they underwent background checks and did not remain unemployed for 45 days or more.
  • socala4socala4 Posts: 2,427
    Rationale: It's a Republican effort to appeal to the Hispanic vote, particularly in California which remains a Democratic stronghold. The GOP would love to be able to capture California voters, it would ensure perpetual control of the presidency.

    But I don't see a direct connection to the topic. The UAW's decline is not really impacted by this, either way.
  • bobstbobst Posts: 1,783
    The rationale? It's simple.

    The business owners want "guest workers" as a cheap source of labor so they pay the politicians to pass a silly law like this.

    I think George Bush is a wonderful president but I am totally against this "guest worker stuff.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,994
    Great posts george !!!!

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,994
    So because of a few politicians wanting to break the laws of our land and giving illegal aliens a "way out" to win votes we all have to suffer and PAY the consequences. Isn't a 30% prison population of illegal aliens enough ?????????

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,994
    He's about as wonderful as the Flu !!!!! I guess it's another way to destroy unions, and the middle class.

    Rocky
  • george35george35 Posts: 203
    Rocky, you and I will probably NOT agree 95% of the time however I have to agree with you this time. IT is purely political !!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,994
    Well we might agree more than you think.

    BTW-I might become a spokesmouth for Honda and Toyota before they lay me in a grave if GM, Ford, Chrysler, continue on this trend of stabbing me, my family, Big 3 fans, in the back by building crap in China. ;)
  • george35george35 Posts: 203
    Here is a "creative option ". Wink,Wink !

    Don't worry about the Delphi problem . With some number crunching ,figure that if we permanently reduce the pay of all salaried employees and salaried retirees by 10%, GM can easily 'buy out' a good portion of the eligible HOURLY employees (and still offer them the current UAW package of retirement and lifelong benefits without any compromise). This can be accomplished simply under a "equality of sacrifice letter" to all GM salaried/retirees to get Delphi in good enough shape to be sold again. It only takes a letter of notification that would start:
    "It is with great reluctance....... ....... I am sure you will support the decision of the Board "

    This would temporarily (12 months) remove the impasse in negotiations.

    It is only fair.....isn't it?

    Damn, but we STILL have to sell the product. I guess nothing is easy anymore. Oh well !
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Alamogordo, NMPosts: 7,615
    manufacture without the United Auto Workers union? Ya gotta be kiddin' me!

    2011 Kia Soul Sport 5-speed

  • bobstbobst Posts: 1,783
    Thanks for the very informative link, George. It is nice to see a report that actually gives facts instead of just opinions.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,994
    I guess you'd rather manufactor cars with illegal aliens to keep costs down, but still the customer wouldn't save a lick on his vehicle. :P Just look at the Fusion. Why isn't it $13K when only 30% of it has NA content. :D

    Rocky
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