They apparently don't mind the hassles, because they are already doing it.
It's not just the automakers who are building plants in Mexico, the larger suppliers are also building facilities in Mexico in order to be close to their customers and to take advantage of the same low labor costs. That's why Ford can build a car in Mexico with only 30% US-Canadian content -- the suppliers have already relocated there to sell their parts to FoMoCo. At this point, the trend is unstoppable.
"It's ashame we live in such times. I've lost pretty much all hope that we can turn this around. American Car Manufactors have lost many customers."
You spent a nice poignant post on the problems of exporting jobs and then closed with the problems of the Domestics losing customers.
The two aren't related.
The point is (and you've made the point yourself) is that manufacturer's are exporting jobs EVEN WHEN THEY DON'T face serious competition (Bose/Perrigo).
And now the Domestics are opening more and more plants in Mexico/Canda/overseas while at the same time closing plants in the U.S.
So, which manufacturer's are OPENING/EXPANDING plants in the U.S.? And why are so many against these very same companies?
You complain about the number of jobs lost in the American manufacturing industry. Just think about how bad it MIGHT HAVE BEEN if the 'imports' weren't opening plants in the U.S.
I agree....I was just trying to make the point that I want to buy American Made cars and goods by American Company's.
I know it's hard to understand my perspective. I as you already know am a union member and believe in workers rights. If Honda and/or Toyota were union american made cars I'd have an easier time swallowing there pill. Until they get there domestic contents up the GM's levels it will be hard for me to buy there products as much as I like them. I've said before and I'll say it again....If GM and the other domestic manufactors continue this off-shoring and eliminate jobs both from there suppliers and in there factory's I will have no choice as an american to buy a Japanese, American Made or Canadian car. However currently I do got choices and GM has more domestic content than any other manufactor. Plus most of my family works for GM/Delphi and thus my purchase provides jobs for them.
However currently I do got choices and GM has more domestic content, than any other manufactor.
good grief. How many times do we have to cover this? Why are you giving GM a pass in general? Do you really think an Aveo is supporting America just because it has a GM badge on it? Do you accept all GMs just because GM, as a whole, may have more American content on average across their product line? In other words, an Aveo is Okey-Dokey with you because it is sold with the same badge as a Silverado? Is that about the sum of your thinking?
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
If you've read my previous posts you would see I have expressed anger about that.
The difference is I can buy a 87% Buick Lucerne or a 90% Chevy Silverado/GMC Sierra which is BTW the highest domestic content vehicle in the U.S. I would Pee on an Aveo and that POS Equinox can stay in China :mad:
Until they all get made oversea's then I will more than likely stick with GM :shades:
BTW- They don't all get a free pass. Honda/Toyota don't either though.
"Until they get there domestic contents up the GM's levels it will be hard for me to buy there products as much as I like them."
Okay. But you are aware that the domestic content of several of the biggest selling 'imports' (Camry, Accord, Civic) is already very high and getting higher. At the same time, the domestic content of many of their direct competitors from the Big2.5 is going lower. If (when) the domestic content of the 'import' exceeds the domestic content of the 'domestic', does your purchase decision come down to which is built in a UAW shop or which has the higher domestic content?
"If GM and the other domestic manufactors continue this off-shoring and eliminate jobs both from there suppliers and in there factory's...."
IF??? Do you see a single shred of evidence that they WON'T continue this? At what point do you decide that they HAVE 'continued this off-shoring etc. etc.'. Next year? Two years from now? Ten years?
The domestics are cutting back on their U.S. work force NOW. The are expanding facilities and supplier chains in Mexico/Canada for U.S. market vehicles NOW. Honda/Toyota are expanding facilities and supplier chains in AMERICA NOW.
Yet you still want to give the benefit of the doubt to the domestics.....
Ok. That's fine. But then you shouldn't refer to buying GM on the whole. you really should refer to specific cars, IMHO. Just like I would expect those on the other side of the fence to refer to specific "foreign" cars that are made here and not overseas.
OR, how bout saying "american-made GM" or something to that effect? Its just that, when someone says "i'm buying a GM because its 'mericun," it makes very little sense given all the Mexican, Chinese, and Korean GM cars available here.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
It's nicknamed "golden parachute" because about every CEO has one.
And everyone can attempt to negotiate one if he/she has a special set of skills or credentials that the employer wants. "Golden Parachutes" are usually bundled with "Golden Handcuffs" that stipulates non-compete in the case of employee voluntarily leave the position because he/she might be privy to business secret. I had both in my past and I was not CEO at all . . . and the "golden parachute" did not amount to much as all the shares went to zero as the internet company went bust. I offer both to my employees as a way to keep them with me.
I and many others will tell the investors to kiss are behinds for wanting unrealistic returns in a struggling economy.
Why would anyone want to invest and creat jobs for people who tell investors to kiss their behinds. There are plenty people in the world who want work (as opposed to take a pay check and demand [non-permissible content removed] kissing at the same time).
As we've noted before, I think that the key question is this:
-If you give an automaker one more dollar, what wll they do with that dollar?
The answer is pretty obvious:
-The Big 2.5 will use much of that money to expand their overseas presence, whether in the form of acquisitions (i.e. buying Daewoo, Volvo, Jaguar, Saab, etc.), joint ventures (i.e. GM's JV in Shanghai) or offshoring (building cars in Mexico and Korea for importation in the US.
Why? Because (a) American companies tend to like to grow through M&A (mergers and acquisitions), despite the fact that most M&A deals actually destroy shareholder value (go figure) and (b) the drive is to cut costs, and overseas labor is much cheaper than American labor.
-The transplants will invest that dollar into US-Canadian facilities and parts.
Why? Many reasons, but one first and foremost is because their TQM building methods require (a) an educated workforce in order to utilize a team/ no-defects approach and (b) suppliers relatively close to their production facilities in order to manage their JIT (just in time) operations. They build to quality goals, on the assumption that quality will lead to improved market share and profits (seems to be working, doesn't it?), offsetting the higher wages.
So the entire management philosophy of the transplants is different, and increases the likelihood that they will want to expand operations in the US for quite a long time to come. They could have followed VW into Mexico quite easily (and had the same quality problems that resulted from that decision), but they haven't, because their objectives are very different.
The funny thing about automaking is that focusing on profits and cost cutting seem to be the best way to ensure that you don't earn them. Focusing on pleasing the customer, increasing market share and building quality, and drives for efficiency that increase quality, appear to be the soundest methods for operating an automaker.
GM, Ford, Chrysler, Delphi, Dana, Johnson Controls, etc etc etc. in automotive.
Steel Industry isn't doing very well.
Teachers are still underpaid and aren't getting enough raises to off-set inflation and the cost of living.
Law-Enforcement...Yeah they are paid well
Farming is a joke and my father in-law isn't making any money. He's living off of what he made in the 90's still. Bush cut farm subsidizes ya know.
Notice a common theme in most these industries: legacy big government and union (which through anti-trust exemption becomes a government sponsored institution).
Even within these industries, entities not tainted with union and big government are doing well. For example, micro mills like Nucor is one of the most profitable steel company in the world. While teachers in K-12 are not paid that well, those in the market segment that do not have major union and government meddling, such as private day care centers, are doing remarkably well.
Why such disparity? Because ultimately a high paying wage has to be justified by high productivity. Union and government meddling are the quickest route to lowering productivity.
Rocky, we may hear corporate and executive malfeasancy in the news often, however, we have to realize that such occurences are news worthy precisely because they are the exceptions. Corruption and inefficiency is far more prevalent in the sectors of the economy that do not involve direct owner oversight, such as the government and the unions. If you do not believe me, try get a union purchase assignment, let's say of a paltry $1000; see if you will spend that $1000 more judiciously or $1000 of your own money.
The employers offering $5.25 can only get someone to work for them if nobody else is offering more. If you do not think that is fair wage, why don't you offer the would-be workers a job that pays more? Failing that, there is no law says that you can not pay extra $1 or $10 at the window to the guy/gal handing you the bag of fast food. BTW, I do tip the gas station guy in winter a buck or two just for the especially cold days when I do not want to get out of the car; otherwise I shop for the cheapest self-service.
If you never do things like that yourself, why do you think it is right for you to insist that shareholders of companies ought to do that.
I wonder how much newspaper delivery boys are paid nowadays; is that enough to pay for his own rent and perhaps even raise a family? There are certain segment of the economy offering jobs primarily for kids in school that still stay with their parents. The only real alternative to these jobs is no job for kids at all.
Okay. But you are aware that the domestic content of several of the biggest selling 'imports' (Camry, Accord, Civic) is already very high and getting higher. At the same time, the domestic content of many of their direct competitors from the Big2.5 is going lower. If (when) the domestic content of the 'import' exceeds the domestic content of the 'domestic', does your purchase decision come down to which is built in a UAW shop or which has the higher domestic content?
Camry ya'll claim is 80%....Cool....not my cup of tea....Accord is 65%......not my cup of tea either....Civic is ? and definitly not my cup of tea.....The Acura TL is 65% and is my favorite tea of the transplants ....
As far as the union thing goes I want a high domestic content car, made by my fellow union brother and sister workers.... All the union made GM cars have both a high domestic content and of course are union made. If Honda did this, then my family would perhaps support them about as much as GM. Being a union member we fight for worker rights, including health, safety, and employer corruption. We work are butts off and believe in giving are employer the best days work for his/hers money. Our goals are to be the most productive, best educated, and offer any suggestions to are employer where we see fit to cut costs and/or improve quality. The UAW, like our union does this. BTW- I was once a UAW member
IF??? Do you see a single shred of evidence that they WON'T continue this? At what point do you decide that they HAVE 'continued this off-shoring etc. etc.'. Next year? Two years from now? Ten years?
GM hasn't off-shored assembly plants in a long time.
The AVEO, and Equinox, are the only GM cars made outside of the U.S. or Canada to the best of my knowledge.
The domestics are cutting back on their U.S. work force NOW. The are expanding facilities and supplier chains in Mexico/Canada for U.S. market vehicles NOW. Honda/Toyota are expanding facilities and supplier chains in AMERICA NOW. Yet you still want to give the benefit of the doubt to the domestics.....
I agree that the Transplants are expanding. I hope they expand more. Ford probably will be the first to go belly up, followed by Chrysler.
Honda and Toyota will have to fill the void. :P
I'm sure GM appreciates your loyalty.
Not as much as my family, and the UAW/IUE-CWA, GM better start appreciating my loyalty by making me the perfect CTS-V @ a fair price. They could really show me alot of respect by building me my dream car called Velite.
"GM hasn't off-shored assembly plants in a long time.
The AVEO, and Equinox, are the only GM cars made outside of the U.S. or Canada to the best of my knowledge."
Why is it okay to support parts/assembly of domestics in Canada but not Japan?
Why is it okay to support UAW workers in Canada but not non-union workers in America?
Why does "Domestic Content" include Canada?
Why is Canadian content/assembly/etc. any 'better' for Americans than Mexican or German or Japanese?
Please understand, I'm not arguing AGAINST Canada. I'm just questioning why 'imported' parts/assembly is 'bad' but the use of Candian parts/assembly is A-OK?
"GM hasn't off-shored assembly plants in a long time.
The AVEO, and Equinox, are the only GM cars made outside of the U.S. or Canada to the best of my knowledge."
Why is it okay to support parts/assembly of domestics in Canada but not Japan?
Why is it okay to support UAW workers in Canada but not non-union workers in America?
Why does "Domestic Content" include Canada?
Why is Canadian content/assembly/etc. any 'better' for Americans than Mexican or German or Japanese?
Please understand, I'm not arguing AGAINST Canada. I'm just questioning why 'imported' parts/assembly is 'bad' but the use of Candian parts/assembly is A-OK?
The answer to all of the above: The UAW.
Well, not quite. Actually, it's the manufacturers that wanted much of this. The US and Canadian auto manufacturing segments have been closely tied together since the 60's, when legislation allowed for a limited form of NAFTA-style free trade between Canada and the US vis-a-vis the automotive industry. During much of this time, the US dollar has been stronger, Canadian costs comparatively lower, and the Canadian marketplace was easy to serve, all of which motivated the Big 3 to build plants there.
So we can see that US automakers have been offshoring for a very long time, this is nothing new. They are ramping it up now because it is becoming increasingly easier to do it.
Notice a common theme in most these industries: legacy big government and union (which through anti-trust exemption becomes a government sponsored institution).
Well those are a few of the jobs left. The rest are service. Well explain to me why Herman Miller, Steelcase, Stryker, Tyco, Haworth, etc, which are all non-union doing so bad ? huh, huh, huh ?
Even within these industries, entities not tainted with union and big government are doing well. For example, micro mills like Nucor is one of the most profitable steel company in the world. While teachers in K-12 are not paid that well, those in the market segment that do not have major union and government meddling, such as private day care centers, are doing remarkably well.
Ok whoopie Nucor....Well why is every non-union school district and law enforcement making poverty wages. I make more in 4-6 months than they do in a year. That is ludacris brightness. Show me where law enforcement and non-union school teachers get paid well. They make Store Clerk Wages if they are lucky.
Why such disparity? Because ultimately a high paying wage has to be justified by high productivity. Union and government meddling are the quickest route to lowering productivity.
That is false again.... A union worker according to the dept. of labor out works a non-union worker 2 to 1 on average in the U.S. -I'll tell you why, because non-union shops have a higher turnover ratio thus resulting in less expierenced work force.
Rocky, we may hear corporate and executive malfeasancy in the news often, however, we have to realize that such occurences are news worthy precisely because they are the exceptions. Corruption and inefficiency is far more prevalent in the sectors of the economy that do not involve direct owner oversight, such as the government and the unions. If you do not believe me, try get a union purchase assignment, let's say of a paltry $1000; see if you will spend that $1000 more judiciously or $1000 of your own money.
There is as much if not more corruption in the private buisness sector. However being part of the government I will say it happens there to, but not as much.
If you do not believe me, try get a union purchase assignment, let's say of a paltry $1000; see if you will spend that $1000 more judiciously or $1000 of your own money.
I'm not sure what you mean by this....So I won't comment
No it's not all just the UAW. Canadians are our closest friend. The people of Canada support the United States and don't illegally imigrate. Alot of them retire in the U.S.(Florida) and actually buy american goods and the products made here don't get Tariffed in Canada like ours do in Japan. However I'm not going to lie, because I do support the CAW like the UAW. but above all I'd rather have it UAW/CAW made here in the U.S. versus going to Mexico or some other 3 or 4th world country. :sick:
UAW does not represent Canadian workers as far as I know. Besides Canada is like a brother to us. We could be 56 states if things had gone a bit different many years ago.
Besides, we do have a pretty good trade alliance going. They build a few of our cars, we sell them a lot of our cars. Where do you think all those SUV's/ G6's/etc. in Canada are built? How many of those same vehciles are in Japan, or China, or Europe?
Of course the jobs they "created" were taken away from the domestic automakers, but they don't have a word for that in their language, I guess.
By that logic, the domestic automakers had taken the jobs from horse carriage makers and horse breeders to begin with. A job exists only if the consumers want the product; otherwise, it's just a wellfare allotment.
UAW does not represent Canadian workers as far as I know. Besides Canada is like a brother to us. We could be 56 states if things had gone a bit different many years ago.
While I would agree that our economies are tied together fairly closely and the political relationship is generally peaceful, there is also a fair bit of anti-Americanism among average Canadians, and much Canadian identity is based upon being "not American".
Among other things, there is a TV segment called "Talking to Americans" on a Canadian comedy program, which includes Canadians making absurd statements about Canada to Americans on the street (or the occasional celeb or politician), and then filming their reactions -- the whole idea is to make Americans look stupid because of their lack of knowledge about Canada, so that they can gain a feeling of superiority over us. And mind you, this is shown on CBC, a government-owned network.
Imagine what would happen if the US federal government owned a TV network that featured a program with the goal of making Mexicans appear ignorant. I doubt that such a program would even get shown on television for more than a single episode without the producer getting fired.
You'd be hard pressed to find a Canadian politician who couldn't get some mileage from running on a platform that includes opposition to American policy. The current battle over softwood lumber, which gets almost no attention here, is used a proxy for public sentiments against the US in general. Trudeau, who is lauded by many Canadians as their best prime minister, built his career on creating an identity for Canada seperate and apart from the US, including opposition to US policies and the generally held belief that they are more peaceful, more intelligent and more enlightened than their southern neighbors. Its policies with Cuba are built in large part on the fact that the US has a trade embargo with Cuba, which Canada uses to show its support for the underdog that stands up to the US. And on and on.
If you think that there is a lot of love for the US up north, think again.
Good jobs around here is one that pays $30,000 a yr.
On the other hand, a 4br house on 1.5 acres cost $120k, or four years income in West Texas. Whereas where I live, a good job pays about $70k, but a similar house would cost well over a million dollars, or roughly 13 years of decent income. Goes to show how meaningless the absolute dollar amount is for comparisons across the country; much less across the globe.
...those low-wage non-union store clerks do make up for it in internal theft. "Gee, I'm saving big bucks paying my store clerks crap!" "Uh, sir. They are also robbing you blind!" Do you think if there were decent job opportunities kids would be slingin' rocks on the street corner?
The Canadians do like us....I've visited there 4 times and got nothing but love. They make fun of Bush alot up there. How couldn't you ? :P As far as them being proud of not being americans goes, well....Look at us !....We as a society are cocky, but alot of folks still like us for somereason :confuse: .....
Imagine what would happen if the US federal government owned a TV network that featured a program with the goal of making Mexicans appear ignorant. I doubt that such a program would even get shown on television for more than a single episode without the producer getting fired. If you think that there is a lot of love for the US there, think again.
We do have a show that does that's called Lou Dobbs. He shows how president Fox of mexico, is encouraging his citizens to tear down are borders and encourage them to sneek in here illegal. Fox as went as far as making racial slurs torwards african americans. :mad: BTW- Lou has shown how some hispanics both legal and illegal in this country, are calling us racist because we want to protect our borders :confuse: I have no beef with mexicans, but if they want to come into my country I want them to come here by obeying the law->Legal
"Gee, I'm saving big bucks paying my store clerks crap!" "Uh, sir. They are also robbing you blind!"
Have you ever run a store? Stores have inventory procedures required by law.
Do you think if there were decent job opportunities kids would be slingin' rocks on the street corner?
Are you saying kids working at McD at $5-7 an hour, or even newspaper delivery boys at even lower wage, are slinging rocks while they are working? No sir. It's the regulations, including minimum wages laws, that inhibit job creations that get in the way of letting the kids hired for whatever price the market can justify/bear. As we know, idle hands and idel minds are indeed devil's workshop, as you so insightfully pointed out.
Yeah, if teeming hordes of his poor and unemployed flow unrestricted into the U.S., it relieves the pressure on Mexico's government to improve things for its population and place the burden on ours. I'm sure if things were reversed, the federales would be machine-gunning Americans trying to cross en masse into Mexico.
If you think that there is a lot of love for the US up north, think again.
I worked "up there" for 2 years. They are a friendly nation and MOST like the US. Yes they are an independent country and do not like being in the shadow of a superpower like the US. But I think half of our own country hates us. And I do not doubt they have that kind of show, of course we have a show where they dump worms on litle known or has been actors. They also have the Quebec part that cannot get along with thier western brothers. All part of life.
So your .com buiz went belly up. That's too bad. I respect your courage.
I did not own the company (aside from shares received and to be vested as an employee). I learned the valuable lesson that working for someone else is even less secure than working for myself ;-)
I'd rather have my arms, legs, and not be paralyzed than those jobs your talking about in the South. Don't most of those folks still live in the swamp, married to there sister ? :P
Well why should I work my butt off for a boss/shareholders that's going to sell me down the river eventually and export my job ????
It works both ways. You might be a good employer, however their are few and far, if you know what I mean.
That's why there need to be more employers for potential employees to choose from, plus the option for would-be employees to work for themselves . . . so that nobody have to put up with abusive employers.
At the root of job creation has to be employer creation, and business creation. Employment regulations and red tapes get in the way of that. During much of the past century, Union and big corporations were cohorts in creating those barriers to the creation of new employers.
That's why there need to be more employers for potential employees to choose from, plus the option for would-be employees to work for themselves . . . so that nobody have to put up with abusive employers.
Well the only new employers are your McDonalds, Government, Oil, and some law enforcement/security.
Starting a buisness. Well like I said before who's going to furnish me the loan ????
...to freely cross our borders is like allowing yourself to catch an infectious disease from somebody who is already deathly ill. Instead of assuming responsibility for all of Mexico ills, we should instead try to cure what ails our economically sick brother to the south while maintaining and improvong our own economic health. By assuming Mexico's sickness, in time, our economy will resemble theirs. Then where do we all run? Canada?
Fox is very vicious with immigrants coming into the southern border of Mexico. He kicks them around, tosses them across the border, back where they come from. Then he tells US we're supposed to treat the illegals nice on the north border because they're leaving his country but bringing money back! What a hippocrit and Washington accepts this!!! We elected them, folks.
Someday all the haters will have all the auto production in Mexico and Fox or successor will say it's all ours. Get out.
I wouldn't be surprised if he shoots Guatemalans and Hondurans coming over his own southern border. Good God, if Bush did this he'd be up before a United Nations tribunal on charges of crimes against humanity.
Ford set a precedence. The GM UAW will be expecting the same or better. Question is how many does Ford need to cut and how many does GM need to cut? If Ford needs to cut more they will have to offer more and vice versa. Also did the Ford offer cut enough or were there too many takers.
Comments
It's not just the automakers who are building plants in Mexico, the larger suppliers are also building facilities in Mexico in order to be close to their customers and to take advantage of the same low labor costs. That's why Ford can build a car in Mexico with only 30% US-Canadian content -- the suppliers have already relocated there to sell their parts to FoMoCo. At this point, the trend is unstoppable.
Unfortunatly I gotta agree with you. :sick:
Rocky
You spent a nice poignant post on the problems of exporting jobs and then closed with the problems of the Domestics losing customers.
The two aren't related.
The point is (and you've made the point yourself) is that manufacturer's are exporting jobs EVEN WHEN THEY DON'T face serious competition (Bose/Perrigo).
And now the Domestics are opening more and more plants in Mexico/Canda/overseas while at the same time closing plants in the U.S.
So, which manufacturer's are OPENING/EXPANDING plants in the U.S.? And why are so many against these very same companies?
You complain about the number of jobs lost in the American manufacturing industry. Just think about how bad it MIGHT HAVE BEEN if the 'imports' weren't opening plants in the U.S.
I know it's hard to understand my perspective. I as you already know am a union member and believe in workers rights. If Honda and/or Toyota were union american made cars I'd have an easier time swallowing there pill. Until they get there domestic contents up the GM's levels it will be hard for me to buy there products as much as I like them. I've said before and I'll say it again....If GM and the other domestic manufactors continue this off-shoring and eliminate jobs both from there suppliers and in there factory's I will have no choice as an american to buy a Japanese, American Made or Canadian car. However currently I do got choices and GM has more domestic content than any other manufactor. Plus most of my family works for GM/Delphi and thus my purchase provides jobs for them.
Rocky
good grief. How many times do we have to cover this? Why are you giving GM a pass in general? Do you really think an Aveo is supporting America just because it has a GM badge on it? Do you accept all GMs just because GM, as a whole, may have more American content on average across their product line? In other words, an Aveo is Okey-Dokey with you because it is sold with the same badge as a Silverado? Is that about the sum of your thinking?
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
The difference is I can buy a 87% Buick Lucerne or a 90% Chevy Silverado/GMC Sierra which is BTW the highest domestic content vehicle in the U.S.
Until they all get made oversea's then I will more than likely stick with GM :shades:
BTW- They don't all get a free pass. Honda/Toyota don't either though.
Rocky
Rocky
Okay. But you are aware that the domestic content of several of the biggest selling 'imports' (Camry, Accord, Civic) is already very high and getting higher. At the same time, the domestic content of many of their direct competitors from the Big2.5 is going lower. If (when) the domestic content of the 'import' exceeds the domestic content of the 'domestic', does your purchase decision come down to which is built in a UAW shop or which has the higher domestic content?
"If GM and the other domestic manufactors continue this off-shoring and eliminate jobs both from there suppliers and in there factory's...."
IF??? Do you see a single shred of evidence that they WON'T continue this? At what point do you decide that they HAVE 'continued this off-shoring etc. etc.'. Next year? Two years from now? Ten years?
The domestics are cutting back on their U.S. work force NOW. The are expanding facilities and supplier chains in Mexico/Canada for U.S. market vehicles NOW. Honda/Toyota are expanding facilities and supplier chains in AMERICA NOW.
Yet you still want to give the benefit of the doubt to the domestics.....
I'm sure GM appreciates your loyalty.
OR, how bout saying "american-made GM" or something to that effect? Its just that, when someone says "i'm buying a GM because its 'mericun," it makes very little sense given all the Mexican, Chinese, and Korean GM cars available here.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
And everyone can attempt to negotiate one if he/she has a special set of skills or credentials that the employer wants. "Golden Parachutes" are usually bundled with "Golden Handcuffs" that stipulates non-compete in the case of employee voluntarily leave the position because he/she might be privy to business secret. I had both in my past and I was not CEO at all . . . and the "golden parachute" did not amount to much as all the shares went to zero as the internet company went bust. I offer both to my employees as a way to keep them with me.
Why would anyone want to invest and creat jobs for people who tell investors to kiss their behinds. There are plenty people in the world who want work (as opposed to take a pay check and demand [non-permissible content removed] kissing at the same time).
-If you give an automaker one more dollar, what wll they do with that dollar?
The answer is pretty obvious:
-The Big 2.5 will use much of that money to expand their overseas presence, whether in the form of acquisitions (i.e. buying Daewoo, Volvo, Jaguar, Saab, etc.), joint ventures (i.e. GM's JV in Shanghai) or offshoring (building cars in Mexico and Korea for importation in the US.
Why? Because (a) American companies tend to like to grow through M&A (mergers and acquisitions), despite the fact that most M&A deals actually destroy shareholder value (go figure) and (b) the drive is to cut costs, and overseas labor is much cheaper than American labor.
-The transplants will invest that dollar into US-Canadian facilities and parts.
Why? Many reasons, but one first and foremost is because their TQM building methods require (a) an educated workforce in order to utilize a team/ no-defects approach and (b) suppliers relatively close to their production facilities in order to manage their JIT (just in time) operations. They build to quality goals, on the assumption that quality will lead to improved market share and profits (seems to be working, doesn't it?), offsetting the higher wages.
So the entire management philosophy of the transplants is different, and increases the likelihood that they will want to expand operations in the US for quite a long time to come. They could have followed VW into Mexico quite easily (and had the same quality problems that resulted from that decision), but they haven't, because their objectives are very different.
The funny thing about automaking is that focusing on profits and cost cutting seem to be the best way to ensure that you don't earn them. Focusing on pleasing the customer, increasing market share and building quality, and drives for efficiency that increase quality, appear to be the soundest methods for operating an automaker.
Steel Industry isn't doing very well.
Teachers are still underpaid and aren't getting enough raises to off-set inflation and the cost of living.
Law-Enforcement...Yeah they are paid well
Farming is a joke and my father in-law isn't making any money. He's living off of what he made in the 90's still.
Bush cut farm subsidizes ya know.
Notice a common theme in most these industries: legacy big government and union (which through anti-trust exemption becomes a government sponsored institution).
Even within these industries, entities not tainted with union and big government are doing well. For example, micro mills like Nucor is one of the most profitable steel company in the world. While teachers in K-12 are not paid that well, those in the market segment that do not have major union and government meddling, such as private day care centers, are doing remarkably well.
Why such disparity? Because ultimately a high paying wage has to be justified by high productivity. Union and government meddling are the quickest route to lowering productivity.
Rocky, we may hear corporate and executive malfeasancy in the news often, however, we have to realize that such occurences are news worthy precisely because they are the exceptions. Corruption and inefficiency is far more prevalent in the sectors of the economy that do not involve direct owner oversight, such as the government and the unions. If you do not believe me, try get a union purchase assignment, let's say of a paltry $1000; see if you will spend that $1000 more judiciously or $1000 of your own money.
If you never do things like that yourself, why do you think it is right for you to insist that shareholders of companies ought to do that.
I wonder how much newspaper delivery boys are paid nowadays; is that enough to pay for his own rent and perhaps even raise a family? There are certain segment of the economy offering jobs primarily for kids in school that still stay with their parents. The only real alternative to these jobs is no job for kids at all.
Camry ya'll claim is 80%....Cool....not my cup of tea....Accord is 65%......not my cup of tea either....Civic is ? and definitly not my cup of tea.....The Acura TL is 65% and is my favorite tea of the transplants
As far as the union thing goes I want a high domestic content car, made by my fellow union brother and sister workers.... All the union made GM cars have both a high domestic content and of course are union made. If Honda did this, then my family would perhaps support them about as much as GM. Being a union member we fight for worker rights, including health, safety, and employer corruption. We work are butts off and believe in giving are employer the best days work for his/hers money. Our goals are to be the most productive, best educated, and offer any suggestions to are employer where we see fit to cut costs and/or improve quality. The UAW, like our union does this. BTW- I was once a UAW member
IF??? Do you see a single shred of evidence that they WON'T continue this? At what point do you decide that they HAVE 'continued this off-shoring etc. etc.'. Next year? Two years from now? Ten years?
GM hasn't off-shored assembly plants in a long time.
The AVEO, and Equinox, are the only GM cars made outside of the U.S. or Canada to the best of my knowledge.
The domestics are cutting back on their U.S. work force NOW. The are expanding facilities and supplier chains in Mexico/Canada for U.S. market vehicles NOW. Honda/Toyota are expanding facilities and supplier chains in AMERICA NOW. Yet you still want to give the benefit of the doubt to the domestics.....
I agree that the Transplants are expanding. I hope they expand more. Ford probably will be the first to go belly up, followed by Chrysler.
Honda and Toyota will have to fill the void. :P
I'm sure GM appreciates your loyalty.
Not as much as my family, and the UAW/IUE-CWA, GM better start appreciating my loyalty by making me the perfect
CTS-V @ a fair price. They could really show me alot of respect by building me my dream car called Velite.
Rocky
Rocky
It works both ways. You might be a good employer, however their are few and far, if you know what I mean.
Rocky
The AVEO, and Equinox, are the only GM cars made outside of the U.S. or Canada to the best of my knowledge."
Why is it okay to support parts/assembly of domestics in Canada but not Japan?
Why is it okay to support UAW workers in Canada but not non-union workers in America?
Why does "Domestic Content" include Canada?
Why is Canadian content/assembly/etc. any 'better' for Americans than Mexican or German or Japanese?
Please understand, I'm not arguing AGAINST Canada. I'm just questioning why 'imported' parts/assembly is 'bad' but the use of Candian parts/assembly is A-OK?
The answer to all of the above: The UAW.
The AVEO, and Equinox, are the only GM cars made outside of the U.S. or Canada to the best of my knowledge."
Why is it okay to support parts/assembly of domestics in Canada but not Japan?
Why is it okay to support UAW workers in Canada but not non-union workers in America?
Why does "Domestic Content" include Canada?
Why is Canadian content/assembly/etc. any 'better' for Americans than Mexican or German or Japanese?
Please understand, I'm not arguing AGAINST Canada. I'm just questioning why 'imported' parts/assembly is 'bad' but the use of Candian parts/assembly is A-OK?
The answer to all of the above: The UAW.
Well, not quite. Actually, it's the manufacturers that wanted much of this. The US and Canadian auto manufacturing segments have been closely tied together since the 60's, when legislation allowed for a limited form of NAFTA-style free trade between Canada and the US vis-a-vis the automotive industry. During much of this time, the US dollar has been stronger, Canadian costs comparatively lower, and the Canadian marketplace was easy to serve, all of which motivated the Big 3 to build plants there.
So we can see that US automakers have been offshoring for a very long time, this is nothing new. They are ramping it up now because it is becoming increasingly easier to do it.
Well those are a few of the jobs left. The rest are service. Well explain to me why Herman Miller, Steelcase, Stryker, Tyco, Haworth, etc, which are all non-union doing so bad ? huh, huh, huh ?
Even within these industries, entities not tainted with union and big government are doing well. For example, micro mills like Nucor is one of the most profitable steel company in the world. While teachers in K-12 are not paid that well, those in the market segment that do not have major union and government meddling, such as private day care centers, are doing remarkably well.
Ok whoopie Nucor....Well why is every non-union school district and law enforcement making poverty wages. I make more in 4-6 months than they do in a year. That is ludacris brightness. Show me where law enforcement and non-union school teachers get paid well. They make Store Clerk Wages if they are lucky.
Why such disparity? Because ultimately a high paying wage has to be justified by high productivity. Union and government meddling are the quickest route to lowering productivity.
That is false again.... A union worker according to the dept. of labor out works a non-union worker 2 to 1 on average in the U.S. -I'll tell you why, because non-union shops have a higher turnover ratio thus resulting in less expierenced work force.
Rocky, we may hear corporate and executive malfeasancy in the news often, however, we have to realize that such occurences are news worthy precisely because they are the exceptions. Corruption and inefficiency is far more prevalent in the sectors of the economy that do not involve direct owner oversight, such as the government and the unions. If you do not believe me, try get a union purchase assignment, let's say of a paltry $1000; see if you will spend that $1000 more judiciously or $1000 of your own money.
There is as much if not more corruption in the private buisness sector. However being part of the government I will say it happens there to, but not as much.
If you do not believe me, try get a union purchase assignment, let's say of a paltry $1000; see if you will spend that $1000 more judiciously or $1000 of your own money.
I'm not sure what you mean by this....So I won't comment
Rocky
Rocky
UAW does not represent Canadian workers as far as I know. Besides Canada is like a brother to us. We could be 56 states if things had gone a bit different many years ago.
Besides, we do have a pretty good trade alliance going. They build a few of our cars, we sell them a lot of our cars. Where do you think all those SUV's/ G6's/etc. in Canada are built? How many of those same vehciles are in Japan, or China, or Europe?
BTW- you made my point even clearer. :shades:
Good Post !!!!
Rocky
By that logic, the domestic automakers had taken the jobs from horse carriage makers and horse breeders to begin with. A job exists only if the consumers want the product; otherwise, it's just a wellfare allotment.
While I would agree that our economies are tied together fairly closely and the political relationship is generally peaceful, there is also a fair bit of anti-Americanism among average Canadians, and much Canadian identity is based upon being "not American".
Among other things, there is a TV segment called "Talking to Americans" on a Canadian comedy program, which includes Canadians making absurd statements about Canada to Americans on the street (or the occasional celeb or politician), and then filming their reactions -- the whole idea is to make Americans look stupid because of their lack of knowledge about Canada, so that they can gain a feeling of superiority over us. And mind you, this is shown on CBC, a government-owned network.
Imagine what would happen if the US federal government owned a TV network that featured a program with the goal of making Mexicans appear ignorant. I doubt that such a program would even get shown on television for more than a single episode without the producer getting fired.
You'd be hard pressed to find a Canadian politician who couldn't get some mileage from running on a platform that includes opposition to American policy. The current battle over softwood lumber, which gets almost no attention here, is used a proxy for public sentiments against the US in general. Trudeau, who is lauded by many Canadians as their best prime minister, built his career on creating an identity for Canada seperate and apart from the US, including opposition to US policies and the generally held belief that they are more peaceful, more intelligent and more enlightened than their southern neighbors. Its policies with Cuba are built in large part on the fact that the US has a trade embargo with Cuba, which Canada uses to show its support for the underdog that stands up to the US. And on and on.
If you think that there is a lot of love for the US up north, think again.
On the other hand, a 4br house on 1.5 acres cost $120k, or four years income in West Texas. Whereas where I live, a good job pays about $70k, but a similar house would cost well over a million dollars, or roughly 13 years of decent income. Goes to show how meaningless the absolute dollar amount is for comparisons across the country; much less across the globe.
Thanks to that, rust belt northern states are losing jobs while the south is gaining them.
Imagine what would happen if the US federal government owned a TV network that featured a program with the goal of making Mexicans appear ignorant. I doubt that such a program would even get shown on television for more than a single episode without the producer getting fired. If you think that there is a lot of love for the US there, think again.
We do have a show that does that's called Lou Dobbs.
BTW- Lou has shown how some hispanics both legal and illegal in this country, are calling us racist because we want to protect our borders :confuse: I have no beef with mexicans, but if they want to come into my country I want them to come here by obeying the law->Legal
Rocky
Rocky
Have you ever run a store? Stores have inventory procedures required by law.
Do you think if there were decent job opportunities kids would be slingin' rocks on the street corner?
Are you saying kids working at McD at $5-7 an hour, or even newspaper delivery boys at even lower wage, are slinging rocks while they are working? No sir. It's the regulations, including minimum wages laws, that inhibit job creations that get in the way of letting the kids hired for whatever price the market can justify/bear. As we know, idle hands and idel minds are indeed devil's workshop, as you so insightfully pointed out.
Ha ! What a costly fixer upper or on the NE side of Amarillo. I hope you plan on buying bullett resistant glass.
Rocky
I worked "up there" for 2 years. They are a friendly nation and MOST like the US. Yes they are an independent country and do not like being in the shadow of a superpower like the US. But I think half of our own country hates us. And I do not doubt they have that kind of show, of course we have a show where they dump worms on litle known or has been actors. They also have the Quebec part that cannot get along with thier western brothers. All part of life.
I did not own the company (aside from shares received and to be vested as an employee). I learned the valuable lesson that working for someone else is even less secure than working for myself ;-)
Rocky
It works both ways. You might be a good employer, however their are few and far, if you know what I mean.
That's why there need to be more employers for potential employees to choose from, plus the option for would-be employees to work for themselves . . . so that nobody have to put up with abusive employers.
At the root of job creation has to be employer creation, and business creation. Employment regulations and red tapes get in the way of that. During much of the past century, Union and big corporations were cohorts in creating those barriers to the creation of new employers.
Rocky
Well the only new employers are your McDonalds, Government, Oil, and some law enforcement/security.
Starting a buisness. Well like I said before who's going to furnish me the loan ????
Rocky
automobiles-horse carriages/horses, NOT the same thing.
Now if you were to have said automobile jobs-automobile jobs you might be on to something.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Someday all the haters will have all the auto production in Mexico and Fox or successor will say it's all ours. Get out.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Rocky,
Don't forget "The O'Reiley Factor". Also, take a spin over to Comedy Central; they make fun of all nationalities.
But back on topic. Since you stated that GM hasn't presented any buyouts yet, do you think they'll be in-line with the Ford buyouts or way less?
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky