...anything very small or very unreliable and unsafe. (a.k.a. Smart car)
But to be specific, I would never never drive a Volkswagen Beetle. I have always hated its bug looks, its high price, cramped interior and I consider it a chick car, more than the Miata or SLK320 ever was. Also Volkwagen doesnt have the best reputation for reliability.
And I would never drive anything Chinese, their safety, reliability and quality are unproven yet so they'll have to prove themselves for me.
Also nothing very slow, or with poor handling as I want to able to avert danger.
Other than that Im ok driving anything else that other people here dont like, Hummers, blinged out rides, Korean cars, minivans, American or foreign cars....
Just yesterday I saw a small GM car, I believe it was a Cavalier or a Grand AM, I couldn't really tell because EVERYTHING was blacked out. It had all the ground effects (a "lip kit" as the teenagers around here call them), dark tinted windows, the works. But the real kicker was the tag, ND4SPD2. The boy has a need alright!
The Wedgewood Blue(?) Mercedes-Benz 300D that's been for sale in my neighborhood for three years has been discounted again from $1,900 to $1,500. Any takers? He was originally asking $2,400.
Diesels don't seem so great any more, what with $3+ a gallon fuel and all. Besides, I'm still waiting on my lovely, almost-yellow (it's Light Ivory, about the same color as the inside of a banana), but free-if-it-ever-happens 300E.
Those cars are the epitomy of Potiac's over the top styling. That car has more bumps and holes that a crappy gold course. I guess that for what they're going for these days, you get alot of performance bang for the buck.
You know Dodge uses a similar hood with the big nostrils on some of its trucks, so I guess it's a style that's hanging on. I've also seen this monster truck on TV with big bull horns and a hood like that.
Two masterpieces lately: a white Sunfire and a purple Daewoo Lanos, completely blinged out (lips, spoilers, ground effects, exhausts, blue flashing LEDs.) Priceless. Would not be caught dead if somebody suspected I knew the owners of these.
I just figured out this morning where the styling for these things came from. I saw an old Dolly Madison delivery truck this morning. The resemblance between it and the XB is startling: short hood, square body. The XB is just smaller. I'm guessing the designer of the XB was addicted to Zingers and came up with the XB in honor of Dolly. :P
The sad thing is that with a good paint job and some mag wheels, the delivery truck would probably look better than the XB.
"I always wonder how those things would do in deep snow as they look like they have such low clearance."
My wife likes square vehicles (like the Element). When the Xb first came out, we stopped at a Scion dealer just to get an up close look. She liked everything about it, but commented that she would be scared to own one because the front end sits so close to the ground. (This coming from the same person that busted the transmission in a Civic when she tried to straddle what appeared to be a "small" rock in the highway)
The xB (in its original guise as the Toyota bbX) was intended to cash in on the late-90s Japanese fad of using the Astro as a sort of rolling party wagon. The Astro is rather large for Japanese roads, so Toyota made a more practical version.
We once rented a "minivan" for a vacation over Christmas. They sent us an Astro. I drove the thing for most of the trip. Party Wagon is not how I'd describe it - at least not for the driver. The seat was not bad as I recall, but my legs were terribly cramped. Something on the door gouged me right in the side of the knee all the time. And talk about top heavy! About the only positive thing I can say about it is that it was better looking than a Ford Aerostar or a Lumina APV. I think each of those body styles was actually rejected by NASA as potential styling for the space shuttle.
Not that they are that bad. It just that driving one would either indicate I flunked my collage economics class or I am a hard over echo nut...or both.
Fuel would have to be $9/gal before the economics worked in favor of the Prius. That is without considering the cost of a battery back. The battery is good for about 100K miles. After that you will be out $5k to $6K to get it replaced. Most will opt for diminished hybrid capability rather than replace the battery. How much fuel could you buy to $5000? :sick:
It just that driving one would either indicate I flunked my collage [sic] economics class or I am a hard over echo [sic] nut...or both.
... or that you flunked English ;-)
How much fuel could you buy to $5000?
Approximately 2,000 gallons or enough to drive a 20 mpg vehicle for 40,000 miles. Or to make up the differene between 20 mpg and 40 mpg for 80,000 miles.
It's not totally unreasonable, but I agree, the Prius does not make economic sense for most people.
I was flipping through one of the local papers and they stated that the EPA was really examining the MPG claims on the Hybrids and that some of the city mileage was overstated by as much as 50%.
What bothers me is that the two employees with Hybrid Civics are getting 38 mpg in mostly rural driving. However, the gasoline Civic people are averaging 32-34. Where is the great savings?
Nothing makes economic sense beyond an Aveo... Aveo is about 15-20% less fuel-efficient than Civic/Corolla. depreciates more than either and is smaller and anemic to boot. Unless you are a GM employee/dealer/shareholder Aveo makes not economic sense, personally wouldn't be caught in one.
I was flipping through one of the local papers and they stated that the EPA was really examining the MPG claims on the Hybrids and that some of the city mileage was overstated by as much as 50%.
Well, not that you're wrong there... but my point was that buying any car other than an economy car doesn't make sense, and therefore buying a Prius is no worse than buying almost anything else. Buying a Prius is like buying a car that you think looks good, or a car that goes fast, or has a nice interior.
Strictly speaking, keeping an old car running is more efficient than doing anything else until something major goes. And once it does, you should get another beater. If you aren't doing that, you're not being as frugal as you can... you're paying more simply because you choose to.
which, by the way, i've read fairly positive reviews on. Seems that its still not quite up to par with most of the competition ... but big rebates will probably help it look much better.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
...that kill the Prius for me are its small size and dorky styling only a propellerhead could appreciate. Why didn't they simply hybridize a Corolla or Camry? At least it wouldn't look as offensive. The rather impractical Insight comes off better. It looks like a little bullet.
makes me think a bit of that old GM EV-1 electric car.
If Toyota just took a Corolla and hybrid-ized it, I think it would be too much of a compromise. As it is, the Prius is about the size of a Corolla, but feels much bigger on the inside. It still has the shoulder room of a small car, so you're not going to get 5 people to fit in any degree of comfort, but dimensions such as legroom, headroom, and trunk space are downright generous. If they just took a Corolla and modified it, I'm guessing you'd lose a great deal of trunk space, and possibly room somewhere else, too.
Also, aerodynamics are absolutely critical on a car like this, which is designed to try and squeeze the most economy out of every last drop of gasoline. You could muck up the drag coefficient on most cars by a few points and probably not notice much difference, but on a Prius it would probably kill its economy.
Honda did a pretty good job with the Accord Hybrid, but IIRC it took a pretty big hit in trunk space.
That odd shape of the Prius gives it a much lower drag coefficient than a Camry or Corolla would have. It also gives the interior space of a Camry in a Corolla-sized package. A Camry hybrid is coming for the new 2007 model, and it should be interesting to see if Toyota lowers the hybrid premium or if they're content to let the Hyundai Accent and Sonata hybrids undercut them on price.
Why didn't they simply hybridize a Corolla or Camry?
In a Corolla or Camry you don't get that look at me factor.I bet Prius sales wold be half of what they are if people weren't able to make their greenie statement with just a tiny little badge on the back like the Civic and Escape.
When the EPA requires retesting of the hybrids for their MPG claims, if their mileage turns out to be less than 10% better than their counterpart, will people continue to buy them??
I would not be caught dead driving in either of these brands. I work for VW credit and get to test drive the cars. I have tested all versions of VW and the Audi A3, A4, A6, and S6. They are absolutely the worst cars I have ever driven. I was given the VW cars to take on driving trips and was told that I should expect over 25 MPG on the highway. I was lucky to get better than 16 MPG. The noise and vibration level in the cars was so bad that 2 of them I returned before I took the trip. I have also driven the diesel versions of their cars and have found the mileage for them to be lacking. The quality of their cars is quite lacking and it will take a lot of time before they are anywhere near what they used to be. They are planning on putting out several new cars and redesigns over the next few months to a year. They need to do a lot to promote these cars better than what they have done before. They will also need to think about the quality of their cars in order to earn the trust of their customers.
I think so. I think most of the buyers buy them for the image they convey. Sure, they like the fuel economy, but what they're really buying is a signal to everyone that they have the "right" (in their view) set of priorities/world-views
Nothing wrong with that. My Mustang does the same thing for me (though by signaling somewhat opposite priorities, and I confess that it's hard to resist loudly blasting by slowmoving hybrids...sooo juvenile. :P )
Yeah even if they get 1MPG more than a non hybrid version of the same car people will still buy them. Most people I talked to have bought theirs either because it was the newest gadget and now they are the first ones on the block with it, or that they feel that they are doing the "green" thing and thereby are doing good even though it costs them more money.
I also agree with john 324 that its hard to resist blasting by slow moving hybrids. :P
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I looked into the hybrid as I wanted to get a car that got good gas mileage. Then a coworker sent me an article about hybrids. I did a lot more research and discovered that only the prius was stated that it got more gas mileage than any of the others. Also most of the other hybrids get little more or sometimes less than their counterparts. So I decided that I would get a gas car and wait to see them get the technology right first. Maybe in about a decade with they way they are going so far.
I agree wait a while for the technology to be proven and for prices to come down. Once prices come down to a reasonable level them Hybrids will be economically viable, right now most people will actually pay for with a hybrid.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I've heard the big question with the Hybrids and their value over the lifetime of the car is the battery...specifically, how long will it last, and will replacement/reconditioning/whathaveyou end up costing so much as to obviate all the gains from the better gas mileage you've gotten vs. a regular gas car?
Any more informed views on this? How long are the batteries supposed to last? Have the manufactuers even discussed what happens when they die?
"Any more informed views on this? How long are the batteries supposed to last? Have the manufactuers even discussed what happens when they die?"
They get fed to third world children, or at least that's what it sounds like listening to posters who don't like hybrids. As if batteries were a new and unknown invention...
I think they have 10 year warranties on them, and an expected life 5-8 years beyond that (optimistically). Just like household AA batteries, they should be sent to a battery disposal center and not to a landfill. They take the metals they can get from them, neutralize the acids, and dispose of the rest as with any hazardous waste.
I have driven all those cars and they are tight, great handling and exciting to drive. Only issue is they are somewhat temperamental. I guess your mileage will vary, but I never experienced 16 even driving hard. Wouldn't own one, but they are well put together and have great interiors.
VW makes some really nice cars. Yes, they have had reliability issues and haven't reacted quickly enough. But they are not cheap junk.
And 16 mpg is ridiculous. I don't believe it. The only way to get to that figure is to drive a V6 Passat in January on 2-mile trips. The other way is to be not-so-good at math.
This is Europe's biggest carmaker we're talking about, not Yugo.
Mind you, I have no stake in this. I have only ever owned one Audi and one VW, and that was years ago. I just don't like these completely over-the-top condemnations of one brand or another. Buddy of mine at work just bought an 06 Jetta. 5k miles, no problems. Another has an '01 Jetta with the VR6 and a bunch of miles. Still runs great and he loves it, but as you would expect, he's had a few spendy repairs he would not have had in a Corolla.
But he's not driving a Corolla, either.
I have tested all versions of VW and the Audi A3, A4, A6, and S6. They are absolutely the worst cars I have ever driven
This is silly. Reliability aside, these are some of the best cars out there. How long have you been driving, not counting today?
Comments
It's in fine working condition, and it runs well. It'll stick around. Unlike my 97 Accord which had to go in exchange for the minivan....
But to be specific, I would never never drive a Volkswagen Beetle. I have always hated its bug looks, its high price, cramped interior and I consider it a chick car, more than the Miata or SLK320 ever was. Also Volkwagen doesnt have the best reputation for reliability.
And I would never drive anything Chinese, their safety, reliability and quality are unproven yet so they'll have to prove themselves for me.
Also nothing very slow, or with poor handling as I want to able to avert danger.
Other than that Im ok driving anything else that other people here dont like, Hummers, blinged out rides, Korean cars, minivans, American or foreign cars....
Something just didn't seem right...
I respect what those cars can do, but I would feel like an alien driving one.
This really belongs in another thread... I saw a mid-80s 400(?)TDL at the grocery store yesterday. License plate read "27 MPG".
The sad thing is that with a good paint job and some mag wheels, the delivery truck would probably look better than the XB.
The first time that my wife saw the Scion xB here in Chicago, her response was "look at the old-style milk truck."
I always wonder how those things would do in deep snow as they look like they have such low clearance.
My wife likes square vehicles (like the Element). When the Xb first came out, we stopped at a Scion dealer just to get an up close look. She liked everything about it, but commented that she would be scared to own one because the front end sits so close to the ground. (This coming from the same person that busted the transmission in a Civic when she tried to straddle what appeared to be a "small" rock in the highway)
We once rented a "minivan" for a vacation over Christmas. They sent us an Astro. I drove the thing for most of the trip. Party Wagon is not how I'd describe it - at least not for the driver. The seat was not bad as I recall, but my legs were terribly cramped. Something on the door gouged me right in the side of the knee all the time. And talk about top heavy! About the only positive thing I can say about it is that it was better looking than a Ford Aerostar or a Lumina APV. I think each of those body styles was actually rejected by NASA as potential styling for the space shuttle.
You can add all three of these to my list.
Today diesel was $2.27 and regular unleaded $2.29. Gasoline is not so great!
I would not be caugt dead driving the uglier than Aztek Prius. Besides it's hideous appearance, driving it is as exciting as a trip to the BMV!
Fuel would have to be $9/gal before the economics worked in favor of the Prius. That is without considering the cost of a battery back. The battery is good for about 100K miles. After that you will be out $5k to $6K to get it replaced. Most will opt for diminished hybrid capability rather than replace the battery. How much fuel could you buy to $5000? :sick:
... or that you flunked English ;-)
How much fuel could you buy to $5000?
Approximately 2,000 gallons or enough to drive a 20 mpg vehicle for 40,000 miles. Or to make up the differene between 20 mpg and 40 mpg for 80,000 miles.
It's not totally unreasonable, but I agree, the Prius does not make economic sense for most people.
-Mathias
What bothers me is that the two employees with Hybrid Civics are getting 38 mpg in mostly rural driving. However, the gasoline Civic people are averaging 32-34. Where is the great savings?
Aveo is about 15-20% less fuel-efficient than Civic/Corolla. depreciates more than either and is smaller and anemic to boot. Unless you are a GM employee/dealer/shareholder Aveo makes not economic sense, personally wouldn't be caught in one.
link title
Strictly speaking, keeping an old car running is more efficient than doing anything else until something major goes. And once it does, you should get another beater. If you aren't doing that, you're not being as frugal as you can... you're paying more simply because you choose to.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
which, by the way, i've read fairly positive reviews on. Seems that its still not quite up to par with most of the competition ... but big rebates will probably help it look much better.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
If Toyota just took a Corolla and hybrid-ized it, I think it would be too much of a compromise. As it is, the Prius is about the size of a Corolla, but feels much bigger on the inside. It still has the shoulder room of a small car, so you're not going to get 5 people to fit in any degree of comfort, but dimensions such as legroom, headroom, and trunk space are downright generous. If they just took a Corolla and modified it, I'm guessing you'd lose a great deal of trunk space, and possibly room somewhere else, too.
Also, aerodynamics are absolutely critical on a car like this, which is designed to try and squeeze the most economy out of every last drop of gasoline. You could muck up the drag coefficient on most cars by a few points and probably not notice much difference, but on a Prius it would probably kill its economy.
Honda did a pretty good job with the Accord Hybrid, but IIRC it took a pretty big hit in trunk space.
In a Corolla or Camry you don't get that look at me factor.I bet Prius sales wold be half of what they are if people weren't able to make their greenie statement with just a tiny little badge on the back like the Civic and Escape.
Good word,hybridize, by the way.
:lemon: :P
Nothing wrong with that. My Mustang does the same thing for me (though by signaling somewhat opposite priorities, and I confess that it's hard to resist loudly blasting by slowmoving hybrids...sooo juvenile. :P )
I also agree with john 324 that its hard to resist blasting by slow moving hybrids. :P
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Since I work at VW Credit. I greatly appreciate the last one as it is true.
Any more informed views on this? How long are the batteries supposed to last? Have the manufactuers even discussed what happens when they die?
Hybrids: The Great Battery Debate
They get fed to third world children, or at least that's what it sounds like listening to posters who don't like hybrids. As if batteries were a new and unknown invention...
I think they have 10 year warranties on them, and an expected life 5-8 years beyond that (optimistically). Just like household AA batteries, they should be sent to a battery disposal center and not to a landfill. They take the metals they can get from them, neutralize the acids, and dispose of the rest as with any hazardous waste.
And 16 mpg is ridiculous. I don't believe it. The only way to get to that figure is to drive a V6 Passat in January on 2-mile trips. The other way is to be not-so-good at math.
This is Europe's biggest carmaker we're talking about, not Yugo.
Mind you, I have no stake in this. I have only ever owned one Audi and one VW, and that was years ago. I just don't like these completely over-the-top condemnations of one brand or another. Buddy of mine at work just bought an 06 Jetta. 5k miles, no problems. Another has an '01 Jetta with the VR6 and a bunch of miles. Still runs great and he loves it, but as you would expect, he's had a few spendy repairs he would not have had in a Corolla.
But he's not driving a Corolla, either.
I have tested all versions of VW and the Audi A3, A4, A6, and S6. They are absolutely the worst cars I have ever driven
This is silly. Reliability aside, these are some of the best cars out there. How long have you been driving, not counting today?
-Mathias