an Escape at family get together. I didn't realize it was a hybrid until I saw the small badge beside it. 4-cyl gets 25 mpg at 75 highway driving it like it was a V8.
Only complaint was that in parking lots people don't get out of your way when they're walking down the drives because they don't hear you coming unless you've got the motor running! Driving gently surprises them when you roll up on them-they give dirty looks like where did you come from!
I work for the Credit side of the company and get to test drive these cars. Since I like to take long weekends and really drive they let me have the cars all of the time. To start with the Audis S6-Had major problems with the transmission and the A/C. Verified by the mechanics at the test center. Used the car twice and had these problems on 2 different cars. A6-Had problems shifting into gear and it was an automatic. Verified by the mechanics at the test center. A4-Unable to use the auto lock system, trunk, radio, and start the car(due to ignition coil problem). A3-Unable to use the radio as it would automatically change the station every 33 seconds( yes we did time it), unable to go into reverse (had 2 cars did this on the first one), gas door was frozen shut and I had to rip it off in order to get gas in. Volkswagen My first car with them was a 2003 Beetle the transmission stick broke twice on me trying to just get it into gear. The heated seats were turn on automatically and the MPG was no better than 18 MPG. My next car was a 2004 Jetta which had no dash lights most of the time that I had the car. The test center was unable to find the short that was causing it. MPG on this car was around 19. I then got into a 2004 Jetta wagon. This actually was the best car I had from them. I was able to get 25 MPG on my trips. My last car with them was a 2005 Golf. I was barely able to get 16 MPG with the car. The test center was unable to figure out what was happening to the car. I brought it to the local dealer and the discovered that the computer was faulty. Once it was replaced it got decent gas mileage but not good enough for that car( 21 MPG).
If that is not enough take a look at what the employees drive. All field employees get company cars along with most of the VWOA and AOA employees. But those that get special deals (we get a one year lease with full insurance) have been turning in their cars and getting anything else but a VW or Audi. It used to be that the about 75 % of the employees had company cars it has dropped to under 15% because no one wants the problems anymore. Sorry to burst your bubble but they might be the biggest car maker in Europe but they are not yet there for the US.
A friend and coworker of mine has an 04 Jetta TDI - he has about 25K on it now. Not a single issue save for a rattle in the seat when it was a month old, fixed by the dealer. I know or work with a few other people with Jettas and Golfs...I don't know of any of them having big issues.
Maybe some people are just unlucky, or the place where you operate out of gets defective cars. That's some weird stuff.
On the same note, I often see people complain about the badness of MB, but mine have been pretty good (knock on wood).
We recently bought an 06 Passat and have had no problems except that the compass isn't working and I just haven't been able to get it to the dealer.
My brother sells VWs at Gossett VW in Germantown, TN, and I can tell you for sure that most of the salespeople at his dealership drive VWs. Several have bought new Jettas and my brother is looking to get one for himself before too long.
One thing that is VERY interesting to me is how few used VWs they are able to keep on their lot. It seems they are snatched up almost as quickly as they are taken in on a trade. This says to me that somebody out there must like Volkswagens.
I'm also curious as to how McLeod can be so berating of the products that pay his salary. Something just doesn't add up. :confuse:
has one of those "2001.5" Passats, and he's pushing 100,000 miles. Now he did go through a long, troubled period with it back around late 2003 and a good chunk of 2004, when it had an intermittent no-start problem. It took the dealer forever to find what was really causing the problem, and they ended up replacing a bunch of suspect items that actually weren't the problem, such as the starter, neutral safety switch, and a few other things.
I forget what the problem ultimately was. He was cursing the car big-time at that point in his life, but except for that spell, it's been fine. And I'd blame the problem he had with it more with the dealer than the car. If they'd been able to fix it right the first time, he would've been out the door and done with, instead of having to drag it out for months, and getting stranded randomly all over God's creation.
people who criticize hybrid buyers for their poor economic analysis are also very likely to have made stupid car buying decisions. The only "smart" car-buying decision, from an economics standpoint, is to buy used. Period. Preferably a car that has taken a huge depreciation hit.
As we all know, but some are unwilling to admit, we buy our cars for MOSTLY NON-economic reasons. We like the style. We like the color. We like the image.
Yet we criticize hybrid buyers based on only one criteria - Economics. It's hypocritical, and it shows a lack of understanding of car buying, for one, and of hybrid buyers, for another.
Of course, most people don't understand or refuse to acknowledge that "image" played a big role in why they bought the car they drive.
Yet we criticize hybrid buyers based on only one criteria - Economics.
The only time I criticize hybrids owners on economics is when they start touting it as saving them so much money at the gas pump. There are many hybrid owners, on these forums too, that love to brag about how much they are saving because they get 50 MPG as opposed to 30 MPG.
So its basically when they start talking about how economically smart they are to buy a fuel efficient vehicle, I just point out that they paid an awfully high premium for the fuel efficiency and if thats why you bought the car it doesn't make economic sense.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
...is to wait until the technology is as affordable or less than the cost of regular internal-combustion vehicles. That, and when it comes in normal-looking vehicles, not dorky-looking conveyances that make a Pacer look like the epitome of cool.
yes, and we should also wait and not buy any computers, because they will be cheaper next year
as to the dorky issue, I am more confident in Toyota's marketing people analyzing this issue than any of you guys. The dorky Prius has outsold all the other hybrids combined. Yet somehow Toyota got it wrong?
I held the same view as you, lemko. I wanted a hybrid that did not look "different." It just goes to show that sometimes what I want is not what the market wants.
Of course, maybe all the hybrid owners are really really smart, and they've decided the Prius is simply "better" than the Civic, etc. That's possible. But I think most prefer the Prius because it allow syou to make a statement. I dunno. Marketing is not simple, and why people buy cars is not simple. Mostly we do what we do because our mothers beat us when we were small.
but there's a lot more to a car than its looks. It seats 4 people more comfortably than any other hybrid probably could (although now with the Accord Hybrid and the Lexus RX SUV hybrid, that might be a different story), gets excellent fuel economy, decent performance, and all in all is a very useable car for a decent price.
Now sure, a Prius is going to cost a lot more than a Corolla. However, the Prius also has a very nicely trimmed interior. The Corolla's interior is, well, nice for an economy car, but the Prius is definitely a few steps up.
I hear you, but you also may be making a logical leap.
Maybe but if the hybrid buyer is just talking about the money he or she is saying then there is no leap. I am addressing exactly what they are saying.
MPG is also an argument about emissions, energy independence, etc. It's not ONLY ab out money.
Lets face it emissions is not as big of a thing that many make it to be seeing that in many congested areas car emissions compromise under 10% of the pollutants (I am thinking it may be even under 5%). So reducing emissions from cars is going to have just a small impact on the pollution in the cities.
With regards to energy independence Hybrids will only have a very small effect. If I remember correctly most of the oil we use doesn't end up in a cars gas tank. Plus there are other ways to help that will greatly reduce our reliance of foreign oil.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
yes, and we should also wait and not buy any computers, because they will be cheaper next year
bad analogy simply because with hybrids you have a cheaper alternative, that being the standard car. With a computer what would be your reasonable alternative?
But I think most prefer the Prius because it allow syou to make a statement.
Trying to resist but I cannot.
Yeah but so does shaving your head, painting it blue and wearing size 32 clown shoes.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
well, the image of the Prius owner is no more clownlike than that of the Mustang owner...or the Charger owner...or the Hummer owner.....or the minivan owner...or the Camry owner....or the Taurus owner......or the Corvette owner....or the Hyudai owner
need I go on?
Beauty (and image) is in the eye of the beholder. One man's "tough guy" is another man's "resource hog"
I find it funny when the guys casting aspersions on Prius owners for buying a Prius and not a Corolla, are not Corolla owners themselves. It's most likely that the guy throwing stones is living in a glass house. Probably wearing a clown nose. ;-)
It seats 4 people more comfortably than any other hybrid probably could (although now with the Accord Hybrid and the Lexus RX SUV hybrid, that might be a different story),
Don't forget the Ford Escape and the Toyota Highlander, plus there are a few full size pickups out that are hybrids, but I am not sure that you want to include them.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I forgot about the Highlander; it would probably seat 4 in comfort. Escape feels cramped to me though; I'd imagine you could get four people more easily in the Prius.
Also forgot about the hybrid pickups. I think they're set up more for being able to run power tools at the job site, and double as a generator, so as a result they don't give you much of a mileage boost. Still a good idea for those who can utilize it, though.
well, the image of the Prius owner is no more clownlike than that of the Mustang owner...or the Charger owner...or the Hummer owner
Man it was a joke lighten up.
I am not saying that anyone is clown like, just saying just because you think you are making a statement doesn't mean that the statement you think you are making is what is being preceived. I have a friend who bought a MB G500, to him it makes a statement that he is someone who has arrived and can go wherever he wants. To everyone he knows the statement is that he has such bad taste that he is proud to be driving something so ugly it turns milk sour.
Beauty (and image) is in the eye of the beholder. One man's "tough guy" is another man's "resource hog"
Actually I look at functionality and price which is why most, if not all, hybrids are off the table for me right now. And I sure wouldn't take a prius on the drive we are planning for next summer.
I find it funny when the guys casting aspersions on Prius owners for buying a Prius and not a Corolla, are not Corolla owners themselves.
FWIW I am not casting asperations on anyone. If someone says "I bought a Prius simply because I like it" then no problem. But when someone comes along and says something like "I bought it to make a statement" or "I bought it to save money" or "I bought it because its so much better than 'X'" or some other junk then I can challenge it when it needs to be challenged. There seems to be some need for some hybrid owners to justify their purchase with something more that "It suits my needs and I like it".
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Well I can't tell you about the escape since I have never been in one.
As for the full size pickup trucks I think the hybrids give close to the MPG boost as a hybrid car as a percentage. Just remember that your boosting it from under 15 MPG not 35.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
"I support the development of fuel efficient cars" isn't an unreasonable statement for a buyer to make.
And you have to remember that some Prius buyers, the "greenest" of them, are ideologically opposed to the existence of cars at all, even though they need one. They have to justify owning a car to themselves. That's not easy, and well... it basically takes self-brainwashing, and then they have to tell everyone else about it so that we can affirm their decision.
But they do get the car with the highest mileage and lowest emissions possible. The ones I know pay to have all their batteries recycled, even the AA type, so all of their hybrid's batteries probably do less environmental harm than one regular car battery in a landfill.
All in all, there are quiet Prius owners and loud ones, and both groups have their share of extremists, poseurs, insecure people, and normal people. I know some quiet and unassuming Camaro owners too, but they're not the ones who give a car its reputation =/.
it looks like the hybrid boosts EPA estimates from 16/20 (5.3) to 18/21. So a 12.5% boost in city figures, 5% highway.
The Prius is rated 60/51. The most economical Corolla is the stick, at 32/41. I think the automatic is 30/38. So here we're looking at an 87-100% improvement in city mileage, and 24-34% improvement in highway.
Of course, real-world mileage will probably vary. And using the Civic as an example, there isn't nearly as much of an improvement. But then there, the Civic uses a different type of hybrid system.
You just can't use the fuel mileage issue to justify buying a hybrid. Too many other cars (many older cars) do better on the highway. Popular Mechanics even did a cross country road test of the Civic Hybrid vs. Civic EX and they got within 2 miles per gallon of each other. And the EX is a ULEV so it doesn't produce any more emissions than the hybrid.
Let's face it, most folks don't buy a Prius to take family vacations. It's designed to be a commuter car. And don't many of the smaller hybrids like the Prius get better mileage in town than on the highway?
My dad used to be a fuel mileage car shopper because he sold insurance and had to travel a lot. He bought a Ford Festiva 2dr 5-speed and got as good as 52 MPG in it. It had more room in the front than the Prius and the bigger doors made it very easy to get in and out of. I know the Festiva is one of those cars that most of us wouldn't be caught dead driving (It was made by Kia for Ford after all), but in my opinion, an econobox like that makes much more sense than a hybrid.
If I could get a hybrid that would perform equally well as a "conventional" automobile for the same price and better mileage and a guarantee that it's not going to cost me thousands to replace a battery pack in a few years, I'd consider buying one. Until then...just to get us back on topic here...I wouldn't be caught dead driving one!
"I support the development of fuel efficient cars" isn't an unreasonable statement for a buyer to make.
No it isn't unreasonable as long as the support is reasonable. But there is something called the point of diminishing returns. How much are you willing to shell out to get the next 1MPG increase in your fuel economy? I am all for increasing fuel efficiency, but I will stop when its going to cost me $5k to get a few MPG more.
And you have to remember that some Prius buyers, the "greenest" of them, are ideologically opposed to the existence of cars at all,
That would make them hypocrits, wouldn't it? Or are they just opposed to it as long as they are not inconvineced?
so all of their hybrid's batteries probably do less environmental harm than one regular car battery in a landfill.
Car batteries are recycled too.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
If you have to drive a lot, then it does become a logical choice.
But that's not the point. They're not getting the most fuel efficient car to save money. They're getting it to use less gas, because saving any amount of gas is worth a lot to some people (on principle, not cash value). It's like getting a Porsche Carrera S instead of a Carrera... you don't get your money's worth of additional power and handling, but you do get more, and if you can afford either one then why not go for the best? It's not about logic, it's about saying "I have the best there is." And the Prius is simply the best environmentalist car (unless you only need two seats and no trunk and aren't scared of getting smooshed, in which case it's the Insight).
As for the hyprocite comment well, yeah I suppose they are. But hey, some people put their responsibilities above their personal beliefs, and find a compromise between the two. How horrible of them.
I agree I should lighten up. Didn't mean to take my anti-anti-hybrid perspective on you. I've just found so many anti-hybrid folks to be tremendously uninformed AND they hold hybrid buyers to a completely different standard than they hold all other car buyers.
and I agree that if a Prius owner crows about how much $ he is saving, that we need to put them in their place. In my limited direct experience with this, the hybrid owner then admits that he bought the car because of the gadgets, because he likes the idea, because he wants to support alternative concepts, etc. Hell, my admin. assitant bought one simply because she can drive, alone, in the high occupancy vehicle lane, shortening the time of her commute ALOT!!! (maybe the best direct financial reason to buy one - IF you value your time)
If you have to drive a lot, then it does become a logical choice.
that would depend, how much extra does the more fuel efficient car costs over a realistic alternative? If I had a choice between two cars that have the same equipment (or at least the same equipment that I cared about) and are approximately the same size but the one that gets 10MPG more costs $10k more it doesn't become a logical choice until gas hits $10/gallon. At todays gas prices I would have to drive over 200k miles for a prius to pay for itself in fuel savings.
But that's not the point. They're not getting the most fuel efficient car to save money.
yet many that I talk to boast about how much money they are saving.
But hey, some people put their responsibilities above their personal beliefs, and find a compromise between the two.
Ah but if they compromise then they are not ideologically opposed to the existence of cars are they?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
there are a few full size pickups out that are hybrids GM's hybrids requires 4 times the GAS prius needs, least GM can claim credit for being pioneers of pushrod-hybrids.
is actually a pioneer of hybrid technology. Believe it or not, they released their first hybrids way back in 1939! It's also a little known fact, but there's even a Hybrid SSR! :shades:
it's not really fair to compare a full-sized hybrid pickup to a Prius. For one thing, on the GM trucks the electric motor is more of a backup, and is there primarily to serve as a generator for construction sites. On the Prius, it's the gasoline motor that serves as the backup, to charge the batteries when they run down and also to kick on when extra power is needed.
I'd be curious to see what a more dedicated hybrid would be like in a full-sized pickup. For one thing, a pickup has so much empty space under the bed for extra batteries and such, it seems like it would be an excellent vehicle for conversion.
Hell, my admin. assitant bought one simply because she can drive, alone, in the high occupancy vehicle lane, shortening the time of her commute ALOT!!! (maybe the best direct financial reason to buy one - IF you value your time)
Yeah but not everyone drives routes where they have HOV lanes. Here in Chicago they don't have them and if they did I don't drive roads that would have them. FWIW a Prius would only save me less than $200 a year in my commute, not worth the extra expense of the car. Maybe when they come down in price I will look more closely at them.
Secondly I am opposed to letting hybrids use HOV lanes with only the drives. It defeats the purpose of HOV of which one is to reduce traffic by encouraging more people to car pool. Secondly it is possible that allowing hybrids with one person in them on HOV lanes might actually increase gas consumption. Think of it three people car pooling in on car uses less gas than three people each driving a hybrid.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I ran some estimates to see what a Prius would do for me. Now my commute to work is only 3.5 miles each way. So for the whole year, I'm only dedicating around 1800 miles to commuting.
Anyway, running some numbers for 6,000 miles a year (commuting plus some running around), I compared a Prius at 61 mpg, my Silverado at 10 mpg (about what it gets in pure local driving) and my Intrepid at 18 mpg (again, pure local driving) I figured gas at $2.35/gal for the Prius/Intrepid and $2.55 for the pickup (it chokes on 87 octane)
Looks like for the whole year, the Silverado would run me around $1530. The Intrepid would come in around $783. And the Prius at a nice, low $231.
I also ran the numbers for 13,000 in a year. That's how many were put on the Intrepid last year between running to work, a trip to Florida, a trip to Cincinatti, various trips to PA, etc. Here I used 12 mpg for the truck (probably pessimistic, but I figured I'd rather err conservatively than liberally) 58 for the Prius (just a wild stab) and 21 for the Intrepid (again probably low, as it can get 27-28 on the highway).
In this scenario, the truck comes to $2763 for the year, the Intrepid comes to $1455, and the Prius comes in at a fuel-sipping $527.
So basically, if I drove my truck all the time, and decided to replace it with a Prius, it would save me around $185 per month. If I replaced the Intrepid with a Prius, it would save me around $77 per month.
Now, I can't see myself using a Prius to drag stumps across the yard, haul stuff to the dump, firewood, etc, so I won't be replacing the truck with one anytime soon. It would make a decent alternative to the Intrepid, though.
However, if I bought a Prius, it would be because I thought it was cool, or I liked the idea of saving gasoline. But until they get the monthly payment on one down to around $77 per month, I wouldn't be buying one with the idea of saving money!
I ran calculations like that between my daily drive (an Elantra) and the Prius. Seems like the Prius would save me about $50 a month in gas. But seeing that my daily drive is paid off the added expense of a car payment with purchasing a Prius puts me into the red. If I were to compare a replacement between the two, the lower car payment on a brand new Elantra would more than pay for the extra gas I would use.
Anyway back on topic. I have a friend that has a MB G500 that I wouldn't be caught dead next to let alone in.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Yeah, I probably was a bit over-optimistic on the Prius, but I figured I'd take the Prius's figures at face (EPA) value, to see that even if it performed as well as the fuel economy claims, buying one would still not be a purely economic decision.
Actually, dropping the Prius's economy down to 50 mpg doesn't make that much of a difference, compared to 61 mpg for 6,000 miles or 58 mpg for 13,000 miles.
On the 13K mile cycle, it would come out to $2763 for the truck, $611 for the Prius, and $1455 for the Trep. So on a monthly basis, the Prius would save me around $180 over the truck and around $70 over the Intrepid. Once you get up into high mileages like that (50+) getting an extra 8-10 mpg or whatever really doesn't save you much, unless you do an awful lot of driving. Diminishing rate of return, economies of scale, or whatever you want to call the concept.
I think part of the problem is those skirted rear wheels...just doesn't look right. Also, the way they had the tops of the headlights that seemed to curve a bit into the hood of the car looked weird. The shape of them seemed odd too, the way the greenhouse seemed disparate from the body of the car, it made me think of a tank turret.
When that style of C-body came out for 1991, the Buick version got a new lease on life, and was suprisingly good looking. But it ensured that the 98 would eventually be dead. Once upon a time, the 98 usually outsold the Electra/Park Ave, but with the 91-96 style, I think the Buck ended up outselling the 98 by around 2:1.
Now I think the '92-99 Olds 88 was a good looking car. I think I'd take it over the Buick LeSabre.
The shape of them seemed odd too, the way the greenhouse seemed disparate from the body of the car, it made me think of a tank turret.
Yes I think you nailed it right there, but to me it's not so much like a tank as like those old WWII fighter plane glass cockpits - at least if you see it from the side.
Andre: I would characterize myself as a "conservationist," and I have always argued that the "greenest" thing a person can do with respect to commuting is (a) don't commute, or (b) have a short commute. Your 3.5 mile commute in a 10 mpg pickup is wayyy better for the environment than another guys 60 mile commute in a 30 mpg vehicle.
I'm not one to criticize someone's "green-ness" simply based on their car choice. Yes, car choice is important, but you have to look at everything a person does (assuming it is even "fair" to judge anyone else AT ALL). I bought an SUV last year. My friend who drives an older Accord criticized my choice. She shut up after I pointed out that (a) my SUV has far better emissions than her 10-year old Accord; (b) her family (3 drivers - one commuting to a high school 20 miles from home - longer than my work commute) drives wayyy more miles/day than my family does, (c) they take two long airplance trips each year (whereas we are lucky to take one), and (d) they do not have solar panels. My SUV goes 6 miles/day. I'm not too concerned about its contribution to global warming, etc.
snake: I'm not arguing that a hybrid is for everyone. Just pointing out that different buyers have different reasons for buying them. Not all the reasons pencil-out from a purely economic standpoint.
I hear you re the HOV-lane use. The state wanted to encourage hybrid use. We have many areas that have poor air quality, and hybrids can help that. If you can get people into HOV lanes that are not at capacity, it can help the air quality. Probably not much, I'd guess. They did limit how many hybrids could get the HOV pass. And only certain hybrids qualify. I don't think the Lexus RX400H hybrid does, for example. I live in California, but I, too, have no HOV lanes on my commute. If I did, however, I'd probably be in a hybrid, by now. The commute traffic in certain corridors is horrid, and using the HOV lane would be worth hundreds if not thousands of dollars to me if it shortened my commute by 60 minutes/day.
I do agree that carpooling is preferable. But my schedule is too irregular for that, unfortunately. Sometimes I jsut can't leave the office when I want.
I am considering replacing one of our daily drives with a SUV because we are planning a road trip to Alaska either in 2007 or 2008. Its likely that if we take a Prius on some of the roads I plan on taking we will leave it up there and end up walking a long long way. Basically what I am saying is that a SUV has the utility that a small sedan doesn't have that some people need.
they take two long airplance trips each year (whereas we are lucky to take one), and
You are aware that unless they hire their own plane the plane they take will make the trip anyway. I don't think its going to matter much if there are 254 people on the plane as opposed to 250.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Re odd Oldsmobiles, am I the only person that ever liked the looks of the Achieva? I still think they look pretty good, esp. the coupe. Really wanted one of the SCX versions back then...
I even kinda like the truly strange-looking Buick Skylark of that era (the one with a nose like an electric shaver)
I think the coupe was actually pretty sharp looking, and IMO looked way better than the '92+ Skylark and Grand Am coupes. I didn't really care for the sedan, though, in any of those three series.
You are aware that unless they hire their own plane the plane they take will make the trip anyway. I don't think its going to matter much if there are 254 people on the plane as opposed to 250.
yes, that's one of the complications of doing this sort of analysis - I probably could have stopped the analysis after pointing out the total miles driven by her family, but I wanted to pile on more and more data. Mostly because I feel guilty for driving a car that gets 16 mpg. Now that it's commute is seriously shortened (to 6 miles/day, my conscience is much clearer). Plus, she had challenged me in front of a bunch of people, which was pretty rude on her part.
am considering replacing one of our daily drives with a SUV because we are planning a road trip to Alaska either in 2007 or 2008.
I think most mid-size sedans would be inappropriate for that kind of trip, not just a hybrid, unless it is just two people and you aren't taking much "stuff" with you. If you take camping gear, etc., you need room for all that stuff. Plus, as you say, if you are doing any time on gravel or dirt roads, a "regular duty" vehicle is not likely to make you happy. I dunno - may be a Subaru would be "heavy duty" enough. PLUS, hybirds do NOT like it if you are gonna be spinning the tires, which is way more likely on a gravel or dirt road. The Lexus site even warns of this vis a vis the RX400H (making it not a very good snow vehicle)
I took a Dodge minivan on a southwest driving trip some years back. Put about 2000 miles on it and did some dirt and gravel roads, but nothing a FWD minivan couldn't handle. I did wish I'd had more ground clearance and 4WD as I would have been more adventurous (and less anxious on one of the wonderfully-scenic but badly washboarded roads we took).
I think most mid-size sedans would be inappropriate for that kind of trip, not just a hybrid, unless it is just two people and you aren't taking much "stuff" with you.
My concern is the roads, while the AlCan highway is paved all the way through and many roads that we will take in Alaska will be paved we will be making a few side trips where the SUV will come in mighty handy. Plus we will be taking a different route back that will only use the AlCan for maybe 20 miles. The return trip will not be for the faint of heart.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Interesting discussion. Thus far, the calculations have looked at current gas prices. How sure are we that they're not going up even further. If we reach European levels, a Prius will be worth it's weight in gold.
Well depending on how much you drive that might be true. But for most people gas prices would have to be at least triple what they are now, if not more, for the gas savings to compensate for the added price.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
...if there were some Toyota dealers gouging people who became desperate during the recent spike in gas prices. Anybody who overpaid for a Prius is in a bigger hole in relation to the cost of fuel.
Comments
Only complaint was that in parking lots people don't get out of your way when they're walking down the drives because they don't hear you coming unless you've got the motor running! Driving gently surprises them when you roll up on them-they give dirty looks like where did you come from!
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
To start with the Audis
S6-Had major problems with the transmission and the A/C. Verified by the mechanics at the test center. Used the car twice and had these problems on 2 different cars.
A6-Had problems shifting into gear and it was an automatic. Verified by the mechanics at the test center.
A4-Unable to use the auto lock system, trunk, radio, and start the car(due to ignition coil problem).
A3-Unable to use the radio as it would automatically change the station every 33 seconds( yes we did time it), unable to go into reverse (had 2 cars did this on the first one), gas door was frozen shut and I had to rip it off in order to get gas in.
Volkswagen
My first car with them was a 2003 Beetle the transmission stick broke twice on me trying to just get it into gear. The heated seats were turn on automatically and the MPG was no better than 18 MPG.
My next car was a 2004 Jetta which had no dash lights most of the time that I had the car. The test center was unable to find the short that was causing it. MPG on this car was around 19.
I then got into a 2004 Jetta wagon. This actually was the best car I had from them. I was able to get 25 MPG on my trips.
My last car with them was a 2005 Golf. I was barely able to get 16 MPG with the car. The test center was unable to figure out what was happening to the car. I brought it to the local dealer and the discovered that the computer was faulty. Once it was replaced it got decent gas mileage but not good enough for that car( 21 MPG).
If that is not enough take a look at what the employees drive. All field employees get company cars along with most of the VWOA and AOA employees. But those that get special deals (we get a one year lease with full insurance) have been turning in their cars and getting anything else but a VW or Audi. It used to be that the about 75 % of the employees had company cars it has dropped to under 15% because no one wants the problems anymore.
Sorry to burst your bubble but they might be the biggest car maker in Europe but they are not yet there for the US.
Maybe some people are just unlucky, or the place where you operate out of gets defective cars. That's some weird stuff.
On the same note, I often see people complain about the badness of MB, but mine have been pretty good (knock on wood).
My brother sells VWs at Gossett VW in Germantown, TN, and I can tell you for sure that most of the salespeople at his dealership drive VWs. Several have bought new Jettas and my brother is looking to get one for himself before too long.
One thing that is VERY interesting to me is how few used VWs they are able to keep on their lot. It seems they are snatched up almost as quickly as they are taken in on a trade. This says to me that somebody out there must like Volkswagens.
I'm also curious as to how McLeod can be so berating of the products that pay his salary. Something just doesn't add up. :confuse:
I forget what the problem ultimately was. He was cursing the car big-time at that point in his life, but except for that spell, it's been fine. And I'd blame the problem he had with it more with the dealer than the car. If they'd been able to fix it right the first time, he would've been out the door and done with, instead of having to drag it out for months, and getting stranded randomly all over God's creation.
people who criticize hybrid buyers for their poor economic analysis are also very likely to have made stupid car buying decisions. The only "smart" car-buying decision, from an economics standpoint, is to buy used. Period. Preferably a car that has taken a huge depreciation hit.
As we all know, but some are unwilling to admit, we buy our cars for MOSTLY NON-economic reasons. We like the style. We like the color. We like the image.
Yet we criticize hybrid buyers based on only one criteria - Economics. It's hypocritical, and it shows a lack of understanding of car buying, for one, and of hybrid buyers, for another.
Of course, most people don't understand or refuse to acknowledge that "image" played a big role in why they bought the car they drive.
The only time I criticize hybrids owners on economics is when they start touting it as saving them so much money at the gas pump. There are many hybrid owners, on these forums too, that love to brag about how much they are saving because they get 50 MPG as opposed to 30 MPG.
So its basically when they start talking about how economically smart they are to buy a fuel efficient vehicle, I just point out that they paid an awfully high premium for the fuel efficiency and if thats why you bought the car it doesn't make economic sense.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
MPG is also an argument about emissions, energy independence, etc. It's not ONLY ab out money.
as to the dorky issue, I am more confident in Toyota's marketing people analyzing this issue than any of you guys. The dorky Prius has outsold all the other hybrids combined. Yet somehow Toyota got it wrong?
I held the same view as you, lemko. I wanted a hybrid that did not look "different." It just goes to show that sometimes what I want is not what the market wants.
Of course, maybe all the hybrid owners are really really smart, and they've decided the Prius is simply "better" than the Civic, etc. That's possible. But I think most prefer the Prius because it allow syou to make a statement. I dunno. Marketing is not simple, and why people buy cars is not simple. Mostly we do what we do because our mothers beat us when we were small.
:-)
Now sure, a Prius is going to cost a lot more than a Corolla. However, the Prius also has a very nicely trimmed interior. The Corolla's interior is, well, nice for an economy car, but the Prius is definitely a few steps up.
Maybe but if the hybrid buyer is just talking about the money he or she is saying then there is no leap. I am addressing exactly what they are saying.
MPG is also an argument about emissions, energy independence, etc. It's not ONLY ab out money.
Lets face it emissions is not as big of a thing that many make it to be seeing that in many congested areas car emissions compromise under 10% of the pollutants (I am thinking it may be even under 5%). So reducing emissions from cars is going to have just a small impact on the pollution in the cities.
With regards to energy independence Hybrids will only have a very small effect. If I remember correctly most of the oil we use doesn't end up in a cars gas tank. Plus there are other ways to help that will greatly reduce our reliance of foreign oil.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
bad analogy simply because with hybrids you have a cheaper alternative, that being the standard car. With a computer what would be your reasonable alternative?
But I think most prefer the Prius because it allow syou to make a statement.
Trying to resist but I cannot.
Yeah but so does shaving your head, painting it blue and wearing size 32 clown shoes.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
need I go on?
Beauty (and image) is in the eye of the beholder. One man's "tough guy" is another man's "resource hog"
I find it funny when the guys casting aspersions on Prius owners for buying a Prius and not a Corolla, are not Corolla owners themselves. It's most likely that the guy throwing stones is living in a glass house. Probably wearing a clown nose. ;-)
Don't forget the Ford Escape and the Toyota Highlander, plus there are a few full size pickups out that are hybrids, but I am not sure that you want to include them.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Also forgot about the hybrid pickups. I think they're set up more for being able to run power tools at the job site, and double as a generator, so as a result they don't give you much of a mileage boost. Still a good idea for those who can utilize it, though.
Man it was a joke lighten up.
I am not saying that anyone is clown like, just saying just because you think you are making a statement doesn't mean that the statement you think you are making is what is being preceived. I have a friend who bought a MB G500, to him it makes a statement that he is someone who has arrived and can go wherever he wants. To everyone he knows the statement is that he has such bad taste that he is proud to be driving something so ugly it turns milk sour.
Beauty (and image) is in the eye of the beholder. One man's "tough guy" is another man's "resource hog"
Actually I look at functionality and price which is why most, if not all, hybrids are off the table for me right now. And I sure wouldn't take a prius on the drive we are planning for next summer.
I find it funny when the guys casting aspersions on Prius owners for buying a Prius and not a Corolla, are not Corolla owners themselves.
FWIW I am not casting asperations on anyone. If someone says "I bought a Prius simply because I like it" then no problem. But when someone comes along and says something like "I bought it to make a statement" or "I bought it to save money" or "I bought it because its so much better than 'X'" or some other junk then I can challenge it when it needs to be challenged. There seems to be some need for some hybrid owners to justify their purchase with something more that "It suits my needs and I like it".
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
As for the full size pickup trucks I think the hybrids give close to the MPG boost as a hybrid car as a percentage. Just remember that your boosting it from under 15 MPG not 35.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
And you have to remember that some Prius buyers, the "greenest" of them, are ideologically opposed to the existence of cars at all, even though they need one. They have to justify owning a car to themselves. That's not easy, and well... it basically takes self-brainwashing, and then they have to tell everyone else about it so that we can affirm their decision.
But they do get the car with the highest mileage and lowest emissions possible. The ones I know pay to have all their batteries recycled, even the AA type, so all of their hybrid's batteries probably do less environmental harm than one regular car battery in a landfill.
All in all, there are quiet Prius owners and loud ones, and both groups have their share of extremists, poseurs, insecure people, and normal people. I know some quiet and unassuming Camaro owners too, but they're not the ones who give a car its reputation =/.
The Prius is rated 60/51. The most economical Corolla is the stick, at 32/41. I think the automatic is 30/38. So here we're looking at an 87-100% improvement in city mileage, and 24-34% improvement in highway.
Of course, real-world mileage will probably vary. And using the Civic as an example, there isn't nearly as much of an improvement. But then there, the Civic uses a different type of hybrid system.
Let's face it, most folks don't buy a Prius to take family vacations. It's designed to be a commuter car. And don't many of the smaller hybrids like the Prius get better mileage in town than on the highway?
My dad used to be a fuel mileage car shopper because he sold insurance and had to travel a lot. He bought a Ford Festiva 2dr 5-speed and got as good as 52 MPG in it. It had more room in the front than the Prius and the bigger doors made it very easy to get in and out of. I know the Festiva is one of those cars that most of us wouldn't be caught dead driving (It was made by Kia for Ford after all), but in my opinion, an econobox like that makes much more sense than a hybrid.
If I could get a hybrid that would perform equally well as a "conventional" automobile for the same price and better mileage and a guarantee that it's not going to cost me thousands to replace a battery pack in a few years, I'd consider buying one. Until then...just to get us back on topic here...I wouldn't be caught dead driving one!
No it isn't unreasonable as long as the support is reasonable. But there is something called the point of diminishing returns. How much are you willing to shell out to get the next 1MPG increase in your fuel economy? I am all for increasing fuel efficiency, but I will stop when its going to cost me $5k to get a few MPG more.
And you have to remember that some Prius buyers, the "greenest" of them, are ideologically opposed to the existence of cars at all,
That would make them hypocrits, wouldn't it? Or are they just opposed to it as long as they are not inconvineced?
so all of their hybrid's batteries probably do less environmental harm than one regular car battery in a landfill.
Car batteries are recycled too.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
But that's not the point. They're not getting the most fuel efficient car to save money. They're getting it to use less gas, because saving any amount of gas is worth a lot to some people (on principle, not cash value). It's like getting a Porsche Carrera S instead of a Carrera... you don't get your money's worth of additional power and handling, but you do get more, and if you can afford either one then why not go for the best?
It's not about logic, it's about saying "I have the best there is." And the Prius is simply the best environmentalist car (unless you only need two seats and no trunk and aren't scared of getting smooshed, in which case it's the Insight).
As for the hyprocite comment well, yeah I suppose they are. But hey, some people put their responsibilities above their personal beliefs, and find a compromise between the two. How horrible of them.
and I agree that if a Prius owner crows about how much $ he is saving, that we need to put them in their place. In my limited direct experience with this, the hybrid owner then admits that he bought the car because of the gadgets, because he likes the idea, because he wants to support alternative concepts, etc. Hell, my admin. assitant bought one simply because she can drive, alone, in the high occupancy vehicle lane, shortening the time of her commute ALOT!!! (maybe the best direct financial reason to buy one - IF you value your time)
that would depend, how much extra does the more fuel efficient car costs over a realistic alternative? If I had a choice between two cars that have the same equipment (or at least the same equipment that I cared about) and are approximately the same size but the one that gets 10MPG more costs $10k more it doesn't become a logical choice until gas hits $10/gallon. At todays gas prices I would have to drive over 200k miles for a prius to pay for itself in fuel savings.
But that's not the point. They're not getting the most fuel efficient car to save money.
yet many that I talk to boast about how much money they are saving.
But hey, some people put their responsibilities above their personal beliefs, and find a compromise between the two.
Ah but if they compromise then they are not ideologically opposed to the existence of cars are they?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
GM's hybrids requires 4 times the GAS prius needs, least GM can claim credit for being pioneers of pushrod-hybrids.
I'd be curious to see what a more dedicated hybrid would be like in a full-sized pickup. For one thing, a pickup has so much empty space under the bed for extra batteries and such, it seems like it would be an excellent vehicle for conversion.
Yeah but not everyone drives routes where they have HOV lanes. Here in Chicago they don't have them and if they did I don't drive roads that would have them. FWIW a Prius would only save me less than $200 a year in my commute, not worth the extra expense of the car. Maybe when they come down in price I will look more closely at them.
Secondly I am opposed to letting hybrids use HOV lanes with only the drives. It defeats the purpose of HOV of which one is to reduce traffic by encouraging more people to car pool. Secondly it is possible that allowing hybrids with one person in them on HOV lanes might actually increase gas consumption. Think of it three people car pooling in on car uses less gas than three people each driving a hybrid.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Two truths:
1) Arrange your lifestyle so that you drive less and you will save a lot more money than if you buy a hybrid.
2) Carpooling substantially reduces the amount of gas bought by the average driver, even if the mileage of teh commute vehicle is not that great.
Anyway, running some numbers for 6,000 miles a year (commuting plus some running around), I compared a Prius at 61 mpg, my Silverado at 10 mpg (about what it gets in pure local driving) and my Intrepid at 18 mpg (again, pure local driving) I figured gas at $2.35/gal for the Prius/Intrepid and $2.55 for the pickup (it chokes on 87 octane)
Looks like for the whole year, the Silverado would run me around $1530. The Intrepid would come in around $783. And the Prius at a nice, low $231.
I also ran the numbers for 13,000 in a year. That's how many were put on the Intrepid last year between running to work, a trip to Florida, a trip to Cincinatti, various trips to PA, etc. Here I used 12 mpg for the truck (probably pessimistic, but I figured I'd rather err conservatively than liberally) 58 for the Prius (just a wild stab) and 21 for the Intrepid (again probably low, as it can get 27-28 on the highway).
In this scenario, the truck comes to $2763 for the year, the Intrepid comes to $1455, and the Prius comes in at a fuel-sipping $527.
So basically, if I drove my truck all the time, and decided to replace it with a Prius, it would save me around $185 per month. If I replaced the Intrepid with a Prius, it would save me around $77 per month.
Now, I can't see myself using a Prius to drag stumps across the yard, haul stuff to the dump, firewood, etc, so I won't be replacing the truck with one anytime soon. It would make a decent alternative to the Intrepid, though.
However, if I bought a Prius, it would be because I thought it was cool, or I liked the idea of saving gasoline. But until they get the monthly payment on one down to around $77 per month, I wouldn't be buying one with the idea of saving money!
Anyway back on topic. I have a friend that has a MB G500 that I wouldn't be caught dead next to let alone in.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Actually, dropping the Prius's economy down to 50 mpg doesn't make that much of a difference, compared to 61 mpg for 6,000 miles or 58 mpg for 13,000 miles.
On the 13K mile cycle, it would come out to $2763 for the truck, $611 for the Prius, and $1455 for the Trep. So on a monthly basis, the Prius would save me around $180 over the truck and around $70 over the Intrepid. Once you get up into high mileages like that (50+) getting an extra 8-10 mpg or whatever really doesn't save you much, unless you do an awful lot of driving. Diminishing rate of return, economies of scale, or whatever you want to call the concept.
When that style of C-body came out for 1991, the Buick version got a new lease on life, and was suprisingly good looking. But it ensured that the 98 would eventually be dead. Once upon a time, the 98 usually outsold the Electra/Park Ave, but with the 91-96 style, I think the Buck ended up outselling the 98 by around 2:1.
Now I think the '92-99 Olds 88 was a good looking car. I think I'd take it over the Buick LeSabre.
Yes I think you nailed it right there, but to me it's not so much like a tank as like those old WWII fighter plane glass cockpits - at least if you see it from the side.
I'm not one to criticize someone's "green-ness" simply based on their car choice. Yes, car choice is important, but you have to look at everything a person does (assuming it is even "fair" to judge anyone else AT ALL). I bought an SUV last year. My friend who drives an older Accord criticized my choice. She shut up after I pointed out that (a) my SUV has far better emissions than her 10-year old Accord; (b) her family (3 drivers - one commuting to a high school 20 miles from home - longer than my work commute) drives wayyy more miles/day than my family does, (c) they take two long airplance trips each year (whereas we are lucky to take one), and (d) they do not have solar panels. My SUV goes 6 miles/day. I'm not too concerned about its contribution to global warming, etc.
I hear you re the HOV-lane use. The state wanted to encourage hybrid use. We have many areas that have poor air quality, and hybrids can help that. If you can get people into HOV lanes that are not at capacity, it can help the air quality. Probably not much, I'd guess. They did limit how many hybrids could get the HOV pass. And only certain hybrids qualify. I don't think the Lexus RX400H hybrid does, for example. I live in California, but I, too, have no HOV lanes on my commute. If I did, however, I'd probably be in a hybrid, by now. The commute traffic in certain corridors is horrid, and using the HOV lane would be worth hundreds if not thousands of dollars to me if it shortened my commute by 60 minutes/day.
I do agree that carpooling is preferable. But my schedule is too irregular for that, unfortunately. Sometimes I jsut can't leave the office when I want.
[shakes fist]
dang it - you made me LOOK!
:-)
I am considering replacing one of our daily drives with a SUV because we are planning a road trip to Alaska either in 2007 or 2008. Its likely that if we take a Prius on some of the roads I plan on taking we will leave it up there and end up walking a long long way. Basically what I am saying is that a SUV has the utility that a small sedan doesn't have that some people need.
they take two long airplance trips each year (whereas we are lucky to take one), and
You are aware that unless they hire their own plane the plane they take will make the trip anyway. I don't think its going to matter much if there are 254 people on the plane as opposed to 250.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I even kinda like the truly strange-looking Buick Skylark of that era (the one with a nose like an electric shaver)
yes, that's one of the complications of doing this sort of analysis - I probably could have stopped the analysis after pointing out the total miles driven by her family, but I wanted to pile on more and more data. Mostly because I feel guilty for driving a car that gets 16 mpg. Now that it's commute is seriously shortened (to 6 miles/day, my conscience is much clearer). Plus, she had challenged me in front of a bunch of people, which was pretty rude on her part.
am considering replacing one of our daily drives with a SUV because we are planning a road trip to Alaska either in 2007 or 2008.
I think most mid-size sedans would be inappropriate for that kind of trip, not just a hybrid, unless it is just two people and you aren't taking much "stuff" with you. If you take camping gear, etc., you need room for all that stuff. Plus, as you say, if you are doing any time on gravel or dirt roads, a "regular duty" vehicle is not likely to make you happy. I dunno - may be a Subaru would be "heavy duty" enough. PLUS, hybirds do NOT like it if you are gonna be spinning the tires, which is way more likely on a gravel or dirt road. The Lexus site even warns of this vis a vis the RX400H (making it not a very good snow vehicle)
I took a Dodge minivan on a southwest driving trip some years back. Put about 2000 miles on it and did some dirt and gravel roads, but nothing a FWD minivan couldn't handle. I did wish I'd had more ground clearance and 4WD as I would have been more adventurous (and less anxious on one of the wonderfully-scenic but badly washboarded roads we took).
My concern is the roads, while the AlCan highway is paved all the way through and many roads that we will take in Alaska will be paved we will be making a few side trips where the SUV will come in mighty handy. Plus we will be taking a different route back that will only use the AlCan for maybe 20 miles. The return trip will not be for the faint of heart.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
How are we going to dispose of all of the batteries that much a decision will create?
That is one fact that oft is ignored.
A battery is shaped kind of like a cinder block...maybe they could be used as a building material? Use 'em to level the double-wad!
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D