I don't know what others mean but the guy I know with the Toyota it means the transmission was resting on the ground not attached to the car. IIRC in that case it turned out that it wasn't properly secured to the car.
Correct, that is what happened to that Kia Sportage.
are definitely worrying about your "image" too much. Hyundai is going thru what Toyota did about 30 years ago. The new breed Hyundai's appear to be pretty good cars. Now, I sound just like my father.
Nah, image has little to do with it. My big beef with Hyundai and Kia (in particular) is partly their low quality, but MOSTLY their resale. A Kia is actually a much more expensive car to own if you're like most people, and trade every 2-3-4-5 years. You will lose your shirt when you go to sell it.
OTOH, if you find a good car like the iluvmysephia guy, and don't mind the lack of refinement those cars offer, it might just be the bargain of a lifetime.
True, but just remember every assembly line will produce a dog now and again (not to offend dog lovers). That is why you cannot judge a car line by one car.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Nah, image has little to do with it. My big beef with Hyundai and Kia (in particular) is partly their low quality
Apparently it has to do about image. Your image of these two are low quality ignoring the wealth of acclaims (for Hyundai at least) of great quality in their cars.
but MOSTLY their resale.
Resale is mostly a non issue for several reasons, one being you pay up front for the higher resale values of the likes of Honda or Toyota. Secondly the longer you own the car the less it is an issue. And if you plan on owning the car for only 2-3 years your better off leasing it if you don't put a lot of miles on a car, if you do put a lot of miles on your going to be hosed either way. Finally would you rather drive a car that you really like that might have a low resale value or one you hate that might have a high resale value.
Anyway since I plan on getting at least 200K on my Hyundai I am not worried about resale value. It runs and its paid for, you can't get much better than that.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I agree. You can't make an "economic" argument in favor of buying ANY new car. They all take a big hit the minute you sign the papers. If you want to argume about which car is the best from a financial viewpoint, then we better be talking USED cars. If you are worried about depreciation, then buy USED.
well, I guess anyone can make any argument they want....
If you want to argume about which car is the best from a financial viewpoint, then we better be talking USED cars.
Technically yes, you don't get hit with the big depreciation. But just remember if you are buying from a dealer they are making a big profit on it (so is it really a good deal?).
My mom always said its being sold for a reason, what is that reason?
Anyways my point is that possible resale value should not be a driving force in your decision.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
you: Hyundai is going thru what Toyota did about 30 years ago.
me: one difference is that your Korean warranty is only good, as long as N. Korea continues to abide by the cease-fire that exists. I believe many of the Kia/Hyundai factories are within range of thousands of N. Korean long-range artillery and missile batteries. Maybe 30 miles from the most heavily militarized zone in the world, with a deranged leader.
If you want a cheap Asian car with a long warranty, you could also check out a Suzuki.
If you want to argume about which car is the best from a financial viewpoint
I don't view buying a car a financial move. Like buying an Odyssey. The wife wanted it. We needed the room for the kids and their friends. It serves it's purpose. But one day both girls will be driving and we won't need (or want) the van. So that next car will be an interesting purchase for my wife. A midlife emotional decision for her after years of being a mommy and then turning into a mother.
I see her wanting a something other than the 3 series convertibles all the other midlife moms around here have. Something like a Corvette....
I was in a 97 Corolla once (just a year after a friend purchased it)....and on the highway I noticed the revs swinging a bit higher, and this grinding noise (as if brake calipers hitting the rotor)...the noise got worse and worse till I told her to pull on the side of the highway. Looked under the car...nothing...Under the hood...nothing.
Got back in the car, and just as shes starting to accelerator (about 10MPH) we were suddenly jerked back into our seats. Opened the door, looking under the car...tranny fell out. Surprised since she was a VERY delicate driver.
Three years pass by, she grew into an Acura TL...Guessed it...the famous Honda transmission failure (but before Honda admitted it). Issue was rectified then she moved into a Volvo S60 (she's never been brand loyal).
With the Volvo though, the light turned on stating there was a transmission failure instead of leaving her on the side of the road... which later required the whole unit to be replaced. She learned that Aisin AW (A Toyota Subsidiary) supplies the 5 speed automatic units in Volvos.
Needless to say there's endless jokes amongst friends on what/how/luck she has with transmissions.
Three years pass by, she grew into an Acura TL...Guessed it...the famous Honda transmission failure (but before Honda admitted it). Issue was rectified then she moved into a Volvo S60 (she's never been brand loyal).
Yikes. Not about the brand loyalty thing (I'm not either: Pontiac, Ford, Volkswagen, Oldsmobile, Oldsmobile, Nissan - in that order), but Volvos. Something about those cars gives me the heebies. I think that after my electrical nightmare of a VW, I've developed a sixth sense when it comes to problematic cars. :P
I wonder if Volvo still uses Japanese transmissions, or if they've gone over to Ford sourced ones. Which really, isn't much of an improvement. The only auto trans MFG that I can say I trust is General Motors.
True, but just remember every assembly line will produce a dog now and again (not to offend dog lovers). That is why you cannot judge a car line by one car.
You're correct, and I came off a bit strong in painting all Kias as junk. However, I firmly believe (and have many numbers to back me up) that my odds of buying a good car greatly increase if I buy a car from another, more established brand.
Apparently it has to do about image. Your image of these two are low quality ignoring the wealth of acclaims (for Hyundai at least) of great quality in their cars.
No, there's the image in my mind of what a Korean car represents, and "self image" which is what I was talking about (i.e. someone's ego prevents them from driving a Hyundai). There is no wealth of acclaims for Hyundai's quality; go to a car auction site and search for Kias made prior to '99 or so. There aren't any, or there are very few that are actually cars you can trust. Now search for mid-nineties Camries, Accords, Maximas, etc., and you'll find boatloads of ones in good shape that run fine.
There is no doubt in my mind that Hyundai's quality is getting better, and for all I know, they may be making the most durable cars in the world right now. However, there is no way to know this, because they simply have not been making trustworthy cars for a long enough period of time.
Resale is mostly a non issue for several reasons, one being you pay up front for the higher resale values of the likes of Honda or Toyota. Secondly the longer you own the car the less it is an issue. And if you plan on owning the car for only 2-3 years your better off leasing it if you don't put a lot of miles on a car, if you do put a lot of miles on your going to be hosed either way. Finally would you rather drive a car that you really like that might have a low resale value or one you hate that might have a high resale value.
You do pay higher prices up front with most other brands, but for the most part you get what you pay for. Would you rather spend your 200k miles behind the wheel of a Mercedes, or a Pinto? My point is driving a car for that amount of miles can either be a pleasure, or it can be torture.
I've owned cheap cars, and what killed it for me was driving my '89 Escort Pony across two state lines to drop a friend off at school. My hands were numb when I completed the trip, I was nauseous from the jittery nature of the car, and when I hit the school the alternator bit the dust. I swore after that trip I was done owning cheap cars. If I couldn't afford to be good new cars, I would buy good used cars. I was through buying cheap crap.
When I think of a cross-country trip in a Kia, my mind goes back to that trip in my Escort. And, I actually get a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach.
Would I rather buy a car I enjoy with low resale, or a car I hate with high resale. Well, looking at the cars I've owned, you can pretty much guess that one! I've never owned a Honda or Toyota, the upper echelon of high resale (of the non-luxe makes), because I find most of their vehicles dull as frozen dog dirt. The "sweet spot" is full of cars like various Mazdas, Nissans, GMs, etc. Cars that may not have the most stellar resale value, but are genuinely enjoyable cars to own and have decent to middling resale. And, they will last a decade without completely falling apart.
No, there's the image in my mind of what a Korean car represents, and "self image" which is what I was talking about
Wouldn't the two be inter-related? If you have a negative image of the car wouldn't you have a negative self image about driving it? And vise versa? I mean who has a good self image driving a car they think is junk?
There is no wealth of acclaims for Hyundai's quality;
JD Power is one as well as CR who both give the current Hyundais high marks.
You do pay higher prices up front with most other brands, but for the most part you get what you pay for.
Most of the time these days is your buying a name and an image. "You get what you pay for" is just a justification for paying more when you could get just as good for less.
The thing is you don't make out in a car that has $1,500 greater resale value if you paid an extra $2,000 for it.
Would you rather spend your 200k miles behind the wheel of a Mercedes, or a Pinto?
I don't know, that would all depend on many things such as the type of driving I will do. Plus what about the cars themselves, the later model Pintos (after they fixed the issue) were one of the best cars on the market at that time, Currently MB quality is slipping big time. Also you have to look at opportunity cost, in other words the Pinto would cost less than the Benz so what can I do with the price difference. To tell the truth I rather ride the Pinto for 200K miles and take the price difference and take a few cruises or trips to Europe.
In other words sometimes the Pinto, sometimes the Benz.
I've owned cheap cars, and what killed it for me was driving my '89 Escort Pony across two state lines to drop a friend off at school.
So have I (I rather spend my hard earned money on other things) My current Hyundai went from Chicago to Orlando and back (one day drive each way) keeping us relatively comfortable (as well as a few other long drives). Oh and to add no issues with the car until I hit about 131,500 miles (needed a new sensor).
Cars that may not have the most stellar resale value, but are genuinely enjoyable cars to own and have decent to middling resale. And, they will last a decade without completely falling apart.
Then you agree that resale value is not as big a deal as most people make it out to be.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I am going to start asking people who live in the area with Hyundais what they're experiencing. You know, in the Kroger parking lot, a round the neighborhood when I'm taking walks. I want to know how they're doing on dealer service, costs, problems that have occured that are typical and ones that aren't good to have happen.
I am not sold on the smaller Hyundais...they seem old and cheap. The new Sonata is impressive for the brand though, inoffensive and clean styling (if not really derivative), but it's all about bang for the buck. If I wanted a car as I want a toaster or a microwave (no fun, just service) and I just HAD to buy new, I would consider it. Camcords are so boring, this can't be worse, and it's cheaper. However, I am also not sold on the 'gotta buy new" idea. And don't get me started on something ostentatious like the Amanti, no matter the frills it has for the price.
I think all car enthusiasts see some "image" in their cars, as most enthusiast choices have a "good" image.
As an aside, I don't know if I would go as far as saying MB quality is "currently" slipping...I think the damage has been done and the recovery is starting. Current models have fared better than those of 5 years ago, and the W221 S class is getting raves at each test.
In the spirit of this topic.....Subaru B9 Tribeca! I thought it looked strange on the TV commercials, and a couple of days ago, I actually saw one on the road. What a joke! It may be a fairly good vehicle, but the designers who styled this thing must have been high on something. Previously, I thought that the boxy little SUV that Honda is building was the ugly duckling, but now, Honda has moved to 2nd place.
I will take a closer look. The Subaru I remember had a dysfunctional looking Ant eater front end grill. Something that made me wonder....why...oh why...would they
"Actually, the Tribeca doesn't look too bad in person. It is so different that you have to look at it from a different perspective." like from the back.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
you: The Subaru I remember had a dysfunctional looking Ant eater front end grill.
me: That is a very apt description; though I've heard many people liken it to a bird-beak.
And one of the worst things is Subaru plans on carrying that styling over to their other vehioles. Ugh!! Ly!! They ought to give their executives and designers drug-tests. I guess I'm going to cross Subaru off my list of potential vehicles.
It just goes to show you that people of all ages make poorer and better decisions based on risk, thru the ages. Every Yugo ever built also got bought - someone thought they were a good choice/value.
All I'm saying is there is an increased risk of buying a car from a company that could go out of business next month; whatever company that is. Whether you risked buying a Chrysler product 25 years ago, or you buy an Isuzu today. You can be left with a worthless warranty. There is a risk that Hyundai and Kia, which are government supported companies, and the management of those companies could be eliminated by war. I'd estimate the risk is 3% any given year.
In the spirit of this topic.....Subaru B9 Tribeca! I thought it looked strange on the TV commercials, and a couple of days ago, I actually saw one on the road. What a joke! It may be a fairly good vehicle, but the designers who styled this thing must have been high on something. Previously, I thought that the boxy little SUV that Honda is building was the ugly duckling, but now, Honda has moved to 2nd place.
The Element isn't quite that bad - it would be like driving your own little UPS truck. Still, though, too much plastic and weird crap on it.
That Subaru, though, is revolting. It is honestly the ugliest car I have ever seen, and that includes the "pea soup green" or "big bird yellow" Azteks tooling around here. It's also much worse than the current CRV, which looks distinctly like a dung beetle. Or another favorite, the Hyundai Santa Fe, whose cartoonish looks imply that a dozen clowns are likely to jump out at any time.
The Subaru, though...it's bad Really, really bad. I saw it in person at the auto show, and it looks worse than the ad pictures. The car is just vile.
Wouldn't the two be inter-related? If you have a negative image of the car wouldn't you have a negative self image about driving it? And vise versa? I mean who has a good self image driving a car they think is junk?
No, the two are not related. I won't drive a piece of junk because the car is a piece of junk, not because I'm worried what people will think of me. If I was worried about snob appeal, I'd lease a BMW like a good little yuppie. If I'm driving a Kia, for example, across the country, I'm going to be constantly worried about being stranded, not to mention getting sick from driving a little tin junkbox on the interstate.
JD Power is one as well as CR who both give the current Hyundais high marks.
Show me JD Power's 5 and 10 year quality rankings. Initial quality means nothing except your "out of the box" experience. Consumer Reports means nothing. You can have two identical cars (Ford Taurus and Merc Sable, for instance) have completely different ratings. If I want to buy a toaster, I'll read CR. If I want to buy a car, I'll go to various car forums and see what actual owners think of their cars.
Most of the time these days is your buying a name and an image. "You get what you pay for" is just a justification for paying more when you could get just as good for less.
This statement is completely bogus as it pertains to cars. I don't doubt that Costco brand trash bags are every bit as good as Glad bags, but a car is a pretty freakin' complicated device.
The phrase "you get what you pay for" does indeed make a lot of sense when buying a car. When you plunk down your ten, twenty, or thirty grand, you're buying a whole lot more than a heap of steel, rubber, and glass. You get:
1. An investment that you will want to recoup as much as possible. If you're not trading the car in in 2-3-4 years, then something that will run a decade without any major drivetrain failures.
2. A transportation device for you and your family that will run for years, without significant money spent to keep it roadworthy.
3. A car company, and hopefully a strong dealer network.
I don't think the Koreans are quite there yet.
To tell the truth I rather ride the Pinto for 200K miles and take the price difference and take a few cruises or trips to Europe.
Then, you and I have different priorities in life. A vacation is over with in a span of 1-2 weeks, but you have to live with your car the other 51 weeks of the year.
Then you agree that resale value is not as big a deal as most people make it out to be.
Well, it is a big deal, but not to the point that the Honda and Toyota "fanboys" make it out to be. When I buy a car, I look at a lot of things, primarily: "Is the car fun to drive", "Will the car hold up until I'm ready to get out of it?", and finally "Will I lose my shirt when I go to sell it because it has the resale value of month-old pizza?". Resale isn't usually the overriding factor when I buy a car, but that combined with the horror stories I've heard (past and recent), it's enough to leave Hyundai and Kia out of my consideration when shopping for a new car.
This statement is completely bogus as it pertains to cars.
No its not, There are cars out there that are not worth what they cost, some that are worth what they cost and some that are a value. Case in point $100k is way to much for any car even if it is a BMW or a Benz. They are just way over priced. All you're doing is buying a name. You are NOT getting what you pay for.
The phrase "you get what you pay for" does indeed make a lot of sense when buying a car.
Ah if it was only true.
1. An investment that you will want to recoup as much as possible.
On its own a car is a terrible investment. If you are looking to minimize your loss on a car (face it it will always sell for less than what you paid for it) you don't want to be going around saying "you get what you pay for".
2. A transportation device for you and your family that will run for years, without significant money spent to keep it roadworthy.
You can get one of those for $15,000 or for $150,000, so I guess its not really a case of you get what you pay for.
3. A car company, and hopefully a strong dealer network.
Again you get those regardless of the value of the car.
Then, you and I have different priorities in life. A vacation is over with in a span of 1-2 weeks, but you have to live with your car the other 51 weeks of the year.
Yes I guess we do, the 50-100K difference can also pay for a lot of other things too, vacations were just an example. To be honest I rather put the funds into a retirement plan or my house (I do spend far more time in my house than my car).
When I buy a car, I look at a lot of things, primarily: "Is the car fun to drive",
Let me ask you this you have the choice of two cars car 'A' that is fun to drive and has a low resale value or car 'B' that is lousy to drive that you will hate but will have a high resale value. Which car will you buy?
Resale isn't usually the overriding factor when I buy a car, but that combined with the horror stories I've heard (past and recent), it's enough to leave Hyundai and Kia out of my consideration when shopping for a new car.
Well I will take your advice considering the horror stories I have heard about Toyota and Honda (past and recent) its enough to leave them out of consideration. Heck I can say that about any car.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
buying a Kia for the first time was ask my buddy who bought a '99 Kia Sephia about his. He said it did what he needed it to do, which was: give him a car that did not cost him a lot up front that would be reliable and get good gas mileage. I liked the '99 Kia Sephia's body design (still do)better than Honda's Civic and Toyota's Corolla.
Plus, the Sephia has class-leading engine power and room inside the cabin to offer me for my $7995.
The rest is, like they say, history. Just as sure as the 2006 Super Bowl was thrown by the NFL, Kia Motors is producing quality vehicles with awesome Warranty's for low prices. The Long-Haul does protect you, the buyer, too. I have needed to use it and it works. Oh, regarding time in the shop, it's not what people are acting like, that you're constantly running back and forth to your Kia dealer for service. Nope, that's not representative of the new world order Kia purchasing reality, my car-nutty friends.
Kia and Hyundai have arrived and don't really rely on Americans buying their products. They are truly a class worldwide operation as I type this and have been for many, many years.
The recent Super Bowl was thrown to enable illegal gambling fortunes to roll in. Hey, morons, you will pay a penalty for that. Only the penalty you will pay won't feel very nice to you, no TV and freshly-baked goods to enjoy while serving your time. For now, enjoy your bought-off earnings while you have time to enjoy them.
You break the back glass and rather than fixing it you just cover the window with duct tape! No kidding, the lady in the green Aztek that I see all the time "fixed" her window exactly that way.
BTW, I've been out of pocket for a while. Sounds like not much has changed around here. I think they should change the name of the board from Wouldn't be caught dead driving one to something like Korean Cars: Love em or hate em?
But I will throw in my two cents. Personally, I'm not a big fan of the Korean Cars. However, one of my friends drives a Kia Spectra and it seems - at least for him - to be good, reliable, and cheap transportation.
What I don't understand is how if they are every bit as good as any other brand, then why don't they hold any resale value? My friend owns his own car audio store and when he makes his next upgrade to his car's audio system, he will without a doubt cross the line where his stereo equipment is worth more than his car. So sad. :confuse:
Case in point $100k is way to much for any car even if it is a BMW or a Benz. They are just way over priced. All you're doing is buying a name. You are NOT getting what you pay for.
We're not talking about luxury cars here. It's like wondering why tickets to a pro football game are $80, and tickets to the local high school varsity game are $5. Let's stay within the bread and butter cars here; the luxury cars operate in an entirely different economy-of-scale.
So, with this in mind, do I think an Accord is worth $3k more than its Hyundai equivalent? Undoubtedly, yes. You get a better (and more experienced) service network, easier parts availability, MUCH higher resale (more than that initial $3k difference, I assure you).
On its own a car is a terrible investment. If you are looking to minimize your loss on a car (face it it will always sell for less than what you paid for it) you don't want to be going around saying "you get what you pay for".
Why not? People buy cars for different reasons. Resale is only one ingredient.
3. A car company, and hopefully a strong dealer network.
Again you get those regardless of the value of the car.
How do you figure? I do not equate the brand "Kia" with "strong dealer network". My local Kia service department is choking to death on junk cars, and there are precious few Kia dealerships in my state. Contrast this to dozens of dealerships that sell other makes, that have been around decades longer than any Kia dealership.
Let me ask you this you have the choice of two cars car 'A' that is fun to drive and has a low resale value or car 'B' that is lousy to drive that you will hate but will have a high resale value. Which car will you buy?
We've played this game before, but I'd rather buy a fun to drive car with low resale. As I've said before, resale is just one reason why I choose the cars I do. It's important enough where I don't want to buy a bottom-feeder make, but not so important I'd buy a road appliance such as an Accord.
I did change my opinion on this at one point, though. I thought I'd rather own a fun-to-drive car over a reliable car when I bought my Volkswagen, but soon realized my mistake. That car was such a turd, I'd in all honesty rather buy one of those Hyundai Azheras over another Jetta. Yeah, the car was THAT bad, resale be damned.
Well I will take your advice considering the horror stories I have heard about Toyota and Honda (past and recent) its enough to leave them out of consideration. Heck I can say that about any car.
Well, the best we can do when shopping for a car is read, read, and read some more. Family and friend anecdotes are helpful for gauging the quality of a specific dealership's service department, but not necessarily the quality of a car itself. The internet is a great tool; Edmund's is actually one of the reasons I bought my Maxima. I loved my rental of the car so much I KNEW I wanted it, but first I visited the forums here and elsewhere to see what kind of problems people were having with them.
It was almost comical how few horror stories I saw for Maximas. Oh, they were there, as you point out not every car is flawless, but so few I figured my odds were good. Next week represents the third year I've owned that car, and knock on wood, I haven't had a single problem with it. I drive it HARD, too. :P
The other area I like to look at is the NHTSA web site. The worst thing I saw there for my era of Maxima ('02/'03) was that the white gauges on the SE model were hard to see in the daylight. Uh, ok. :lemon:
No we are talking about cars, you did say that my statement was bogus when it applied to cars. Now you want to qualify it? I stand by the statement that with cars you don't always get what you pay for.
So, with this in mind, do I think an Accord is worth $3k more than its Hyundai equivalent?
Actually its more like $4k+ more, and No you don't get all that back at resale. FWIW If I pay $4k more at the time of purchase I better get $4.5K more back three years years and that isn't going to happen.
You get a better (and more experienced) service network,
better/more experienced is a function of the individual working on your car. Trust me you can just as easily get an incompetent inexperienced Honda Mechanic as you can one from Hyundai. Anyways I only go to the dealership for warranty work (something I only had to do once with one car).
We've played this game before, but I'd rather buy a fun to drive car with low resale.
Then you agree resale value (which admittedly can not be determined at this point) is not that meaningful when it comes to buying a car.
How do you figure?
Because every make has a dealer network, and that dealer network is only as strong as the individual dealer. I for one would never take a car into my local Honda dealer for any type of work. Thats nothing against Honda and everything against the dealer who basically stinks. There is another Honda dealer not to far that I wouldn't send my worst enemy to (the owner used to have another dealership that did un-needed repairs oft times just switching parts between two different cars). Again this is nothing against Honda, but if you have a bad dealer a strong dealer network is meaningless.
Well, the best we can do when shopping for a car is read, read, and read some more. Family and friend anecdotes are helpful for gauging the quality of a specific dealership's service department, but not necessarily the quality of a car itself.
So if someone who owns a car tells me about their experience with it I should just shrug it off and listen to people who never been in the car (or even those who cannot even spell the cars name correctly)?
Tell me how many miles do you have on that Maxima?
I got over 130K on my Hyundai before anything went wrong (had to have a sensor replaced), its hard to beat that.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
you: I stand by the statement that with cars you don't always get what you pay for.
me: That is always true, but very vague. The dollars I use to buy something are always perfect, while physical products are not perfect.
But in general when you pay more, you get more; not always - as people can make poor decisions. For instance I have a $6 watch from Walmart, that tells time well and has a light, and a stopwatch. Now you can argue it is functionally good as a watch costing hundreds or thousands, but it does not provide all the benefits.
It seems like you keep measuring Driving by the cost per mile. Your main concern is the purchase cost, the resale, your gas cost ...? Do you recommend everyone should buy their clothes at Wal-mart because they'll get the lowest cost / hour worn? Or to buy a 19" TV over a large-screen because the cost / hour of viewing is the lowest?
you: I got over 130K on my Hyundai before anything went wrong (had to have a sensor replaced), its hard to beat that.
me: You could get 500K miles on that car, and if (not saying it is) it's boring I still wouldn't want to drive it. If the Maxima was nice and fun-to-drive I wouldn't care if it was in the shop a couple of times a year.
But in general when you pay more, you get more; not always - as people can make poor decisions.
true and sometimes those poor decisions can mean paying more and not getting more.
Remember just because you pay more doesn't mean you get more.
It seems like you keep measuring Driving by the cost per mile.
If I was I would be advocating getting a Chevy Aveo special value for under $10k. however I am looking for the best bang for the buck and keeping the bucks to a respectable level.
Do you recommend everyone should buy their clothes at Wal-mart because they'll get the lowest cost / hour worn? Or to buy a 19" TV over a large-screen because the cost / hour of viewing is the lowest?
No, thats not what I am saying. What I would recommend that if you want the 50 inch big screen TV don't automatically buy the most expensive one because generally you won't get a better one. In other words if 'A' and 'B' are comparable why buy 'A' if its far more expensive.
All you seem to be doing is justifying paying more for the same thing.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
you: All you seem to be doing is justifying paying more for the same thing.
me: No that would be recommending buying a new Maxima (or any model) for $28K when the Nissan dealer in the next town has the same exact car+options for $26K.
There is a difference in brand value, and driving experience between a Maxima and other vehicles. The value of those differences is up to each individual to rate how much it's worth. There certainly are differences between car models/brands like Hyundai to Cadillace to Bentley; just like there are differences between the $6 Chinese Walmart watch to the Movado watch, to the Rolex.
Yes all the cars will get you to your destination usually, and all the watches will tell you time, but that doesn't mean they're the same.
Certain brands of cars (which brands, have changed over the years)are have always been looked down upon. Chevy, Ford are relatively new to the looked-down group, having joined the Koreans. In general the lower priced brands have been looked down-on. Why? Because your choice of car says a lot about your successs in life. Driving a nice, more expensive car announces you have money; and you d get better treatment in life. There is "value" to that.
There is also a perceived difference and an actual difference which is usually NOT the same.
There certainly are differences between car models/brands like Hyundai to Cadillac to Bentley;
But we are not talking about the difference between a Hyundai and a Bentley, but between two similar cars in the same class.
Because your choice of car says a lot about your successs in life.
Sam Walton drove around in an old pick up truck, I guess he wasn't successful. I know someone who drives around in an escort, must not be successful even though he is worth millions.
Driving a nice, more expensive car announces you have money;
Some people with money don't want to announce that, others without the means over extend themselves to give that impression.
and you d get better treatment in life.
I find I don't get better treatment when I drive the Caddy over the Hyundai. And if the car you drive improves your standing with your friends and neighbors then your friends and neighbors are snobs.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Actually its more like $4k+ more, and No you don't get all that back at resale. FWIW If I pay $4k more at the time of purchase I better get $4.5K more back three years years and that isn't going to happen.
I think you'd be surprised. Ask in "Real World Trade-in Values" how much a 4 year old Accord vs. a 4 year old Hyundai with similar miles and options is worth.
better/more experienced is a function of the individual working on your car. Trust me you can just as easily get an incompetent inexperienced Honda Mechanic as you can one from Hyundai. Anyways I only go to the dealership for warranty work (something I only had to do once with one car).
The salient point here is that the dealership is the face of the corporation. If I have a problem with a Honda's service dept., I can call Honda and they'll take care of me. Kia will tell me to get bent, judging from the stories I've read here and elsewhere. Plus, if one Honda dealership's service dept. is awful, I can simply go to another Honda dealer. With Kia, you may not have that option, due to the lack of dealerships.
So if someone who owns a car tells me about their experience with it I should just shrug it off and listen to people who never been in the car (or even those who cannot even spell the cars name correctly)?
You should take their experience as a single data point and then measure it up to the things you read on the internet *by other people who own that car*, or who work in the industry. Example, my parents have a Nissan Quest whose transmission grenaded on them. Now, I've done some reading up, and this is not at all a problem common to Quests, let alone Nissan. Consider it's the only problem they've had with the van, I wouldn't allow this incident to keep me from buying a Quest.
We've played this game before, but I'd rather buy a fun to drive car with low resale.
Then you agree resale value (which admittedly can not be determined at this point) is not that meaningful when it comes to buying a car.
That's not at all what I said. You must have missed my statement, "Resale is only one ingredient when buying a car" and "I care enough about resale so that I would never buy a car from a bottom feeder brand". You're reading something into my statement that isn't there. Resale is VERY meaningful for anyone who buys a car if they're going to flip it in <5 years. For me it's not the #1 or even #2 consideration (that would be your typical Toyota/Honda buyer, I'd bet), but for a lot of people, it is.
One of my pet peeves, and this isn't directed at you, is when someone says, "Oh, I'll buy a junk brand, I don't care about resale, I drive all my cars until the wheels fall off anyway!". These people have obviously led charmed lives when it comes to buying cars. There are precious few worse feelings in the world to buy a new car and have it break down *constantly*, especially when you depend on that car every day. I went through that with my Volkswagen, and that's why I've changed the way I buy cars.
My primary rule, and you will find this difficult to believe, is that I always buy a new car in its last or second to last model year. I've seen and heard enough to know that it takes EVERY auto mfg a solid 2-3 years to bang most of the bugs out of a new car. Even if there are no nasty bugs to deal with (exploding transmissions, etc.), most manufacturers improve the car to such a huge degree that it's almost as if the car is finally living up to the mfg's original vision for the car.
I'm thinking of my wife's Ford Escape, which she bought in its maiden model year (2001). It wasn't a BAD car, and the problems we had with it were small, but an '06 Escape is at least twice the car that one was. They fixed EVERYTHING, even the small(ish) things like putting the shifter on the floor and additional sound insulation. For my '03 Maxima, notable changes from the '00 include a much more powerful engine, more gadgets for the same price, and a nicer interior.
Ironically, part of the problem with doing this is that your resale will go down faster because the car is outdated almost immediately. If it's the right car, though, it doesn't affect the resale THAT much.
I think you'd be surprised. Ask in "Real World Trade-in Values" how much a 4 year old Accord vs. a 4 year old Hyundai with similar miles and options is worth.
I have and ran the numbers, you lose out on the Honda.
You should take their experience as a single data point and then measure it up to the things you read on the internet
I have and my point still stands.
That's not at all what I said.
Sounds like you said it.
My primary rule, and you will find this difficult to believe, is that I always buy a new car in its last or second to last model year. I've seen and heard enough to know that it takes EVERY auto mfg a solid 2-3 years to bang most of the bugs out of a new car.
I agree with the waiting 2-3 years into a models run, but waiting until just before they stop making a model? Or do you mean just before its remade? I bought my Mustang in its first (revamped) model year back in 1981(?) it ran perfectly until someone made a left turn in front of me (wasn't the same after that).
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Because your choice of car says a lot about your success in life. Driving a nice, more expensive car announces you have money and you get better treatment in life...
I drive a big black Cadillac I ain't even paid for yet I had to sell off the furniture just to make the rent I wear expensive suits I can't afford to clean So I freshen my old rags and seldom make the scene They think I'm rich. It's just a guess. It's secret success! It's so secret I don't even know about it!
There may be stories of wealthy people driving plain low end cars, but those are certainly exceptions, not rules. You'll find Mr Debt in his S class or LS just as you'll find reclusive zillionaire in his 20 year old nail, but I think it is much more often the other way around.
well-off, financially independent people who drive plain, low-end cars. But I wouldn't necessarily call them "wealthy". I think in my case, the most "high end" I'd ever buy, no matter how rich I get, would be something like a 300C, Charger R/T or something like that. But these days, a $35K or so car really isn't very high-end.
Don't a lot of well-off people actually lease high-end cars? At least the ones that find a way to write it off as a business expense?
Don't a lot of well-off people actually lease high-end cars? At least the ones that find a way to write it off as a business expense?
Some do. In many cases, they just like the ability to turn the vehicle in every 2-3 years without the hassles of private sales or trade-ins.
Most of my friends like to buy slightly used luxury vehicles.
I have been driving a 2004 Chrysler 300M this week. Nice vehicle but way too many gadgets in the vehicle. I gave one employee the opportunity to trade his 2003 Chrysler Concorde for it but was turned down.
Comments
Correct, that is what happened to that Kia Sportage.
Nah, image has little to do with it. My big beef with Hyundai and Kia (in particular) is partly their low quality, but MOSTLY their resale. A Kia is actually a much more expensive car to own if you're like most people, and trade every 2-3-4-5 years. You will lose your shirt when you go to sell it.
OTOH, if you find a good car like the iluvmysephia guy, and don't mind the lack of refinement those cars offer, it might just be the bargain of a lifetime.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Apparently it has to do about image. Your image of these two are low quality ignoring the wealth of acclaims (for Hyundai at least) of great quality in their cars.
but MOSTLY their resale.
Resale is mostly a non issue for several reasons, one being you pay up front for the higher resale values of the likes of Honda or Toyota. Secondly the longer you own the car the less it is an issue. And if you plan on owning the car for only 2-3 years your better off leasing it if you don't put a lot of miles on a car, if you do put a lot of miles on your going to be hosed either way. Finally would you rather drive a car that you really like that might have a low resale value or one you hate that might have a high resale value.
Anyway since I plan on getting at least 200K on my Hyundai I am not worried about resale value. It runs and its paid for, you can't get much better than that.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
well, I guess anyone can make any argument they want....
Technically yes, you don't get hit with the big depreciation. But just remember if you are buying from a dealer they are making a big profit on it (so is it really a good deal?).
My mom always said its being sold for a reason, what is that reason?
Anyways my point is that possible resale value should not be a driving force in your decision.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
me: one difference is that your Korean warranty is only good, as long as N. Korea continues to abide by the cease-fire that exists. I believe many of the Kia/Hyundai factories are within range of thousands of N. Korean long-range artillery and missile batteries. Maybe 30 miles from the most heavily militarized zone in the world, with a deranged leader.
If you want a cheap Asian car with a long warranty, you could also check out a Suzuki.
I don't view buying a car a financial move. Like buying an Odyssey. The wife wanted it. We needed the room for the kids and their friends. It serves it's purpose. But one day both girls will be driving and we won't need (or want) the van. So that next car will be an interesting purchase for my wife. A midlife emotional decision for her after years of being a mommy and then turning into a mother.
I see her wanting a something other than the 3 series convertibles all the other midlife moms around here have. Something like a Corvette....
Got back in the car, and just as shes starting to accelerator (about 10MPH) we were suddenly jerked back into our seats. Opened the door, looking under the car...tranny fell out. Surprised since she was a VERY delicate driver.
Three years pass by, she grew into an Acura TL...Guessed it...the famous Honda transmission failure (but before Honda admitted it). Issue was rectified then she moved into a Volvo S60 (she's never been brand loyal).
With the Volvo though, the light turned on stating there was a transmission failure instead of leaving her on the side of the road... which later required the whole unit to be replaced. She learned that Aisin AW (A Toyota Subsidiary) supplies the 5 speed automatic units in Volvos.
Needless to say there's endless jokes amongst friends on what/how/luck she has with transmissions.
Yikes. Not about the brand loyalty thing (I'm not either: Pontiac, Ford, Volkswagen, Oldsmobile, Oldsmobile, Nissan - in that order), but Volvos. Something about those cars gives me the heebies. I think that after my electrical nightmare of a VW, I've developed a sixth sense when it comes to problematic cars. :P
I wonder if Volvo still uses Japanese transmissions, or if they've gone over to Ford sourced ones. Which really, isn't much of an improvement. The only auto trans MFG that I can say I trust is General Motors.
You're correct, and I came off a bit strong in painting all Kias as junk. However, I firmly believe (and have many numbers to back me up) that my odds of buying a good car greatly increase if I buy a car from another, more established brand.
No, there's the image in my mind of what a Korean car represents, and "self image" which is what I was talking about (i.e. someone's ego prevents them from driving a Hyundai). There is no wealth of acclaims for Hyundai's quality; go to a car auction site and search for Kias made prior to '99 or so. There aren't any, or there are very few that are actually cars you can trust. Now search for mid-nineties Camries, Accords, Maximas, etc., and you'll find boatloads of ones in good shape that run fine.
There is no doubt in my mind that Hyundai's quality is getting better, and for all I know, they may be making the most durable cars in the world right now. However, there is no way to know this, because they simply have not been making trustworthy cars for a long enough period of time.
Resale is mostly a non issue for several reasons, one being you pay up front for the higher resale values of the likes of Honda or Toyota. Secondly the longer you own the car the less it is an issue. And if you plan on owning the car for only 2-3 years your better off leasing it if you don't put a lot of miles on a car, if you do put a lot of miles on your going to be hosed either way. Finally would you rather drive a car that you really like that might have a low resale value or one you hate that might have a high resale value.
You do pay higher prices up front with most other brands, but for the most part you get what you pay for. Would you rather spend your 200k miles behind the wheel of a Mercedes, or a Pinto? My point is driving a car for that amount of miles can either be a pleasure, or it can be torture.
I've owned cheap cars, and what killed it for me was driving my '89 Escort Pony across two state lines to drop a friend off at school. My hands were numb when I completed the trip, I was nauseous from the jittery nature of the car, and when I hit the school the alternator bit the dust. I swore after that trip I was done owning cheap cars. If I couldn't afford to be good new cars, I would buy good used cars. I was through buying cheap crap.
When I think of a cross-country trip in a Kia, my mind goes back to that trip in my Escort. And, I actually get a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach.
Would I rather buy a car I enjoy with low resale, or a car I hate with high resale. Well, looking at the cars I've owned, you can pretty much guess that one!
Would I buy one and drive it? Definitely. I'm getting a lot of bang for my buck in a Hyundai.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Wouldn't the two be inter-related? If you have a negative image of the car wouldn't you have a negative self image about driving it? And vise versa? I mean who has a good self image driving a car they think is junk?
There is no wealth of acclaims for Hyundai's quality;
JD Power is one as well as CR who both give the current Hyundais high marks.
You do pay higher prices up front with most other brands, but for the most part you get what you pay for.
Most of the time these days is your buying a name and an image. "You get what you pay for" is just a justification for paying more when you could get just as good for less.
The thing is you don't make out in a car that has $1,500 greater resale value if you paid an extra $2,000 for it.
Would you rather spend your 200k miles behind the wheel of a Mercedes, or a Pinto?
I don't know, that would all depend on many things such as the type of driving I will do. Plus what about the cars themselves, the later model Pintos (after they fixed the issue) were one of the best cars on the market at that time, Currently MB quality is slipping big time. Also you have to look at opportunity cost, in other words the Pinto would cost less than the Benz so what can I do with the price difference. To tell the truth I rather ride the Pinto for 200K miles and take the price difference and take a few cruises or trips to Europe.
In other words sometimes the Pinto, sometimes the Benz.
I've owned cheap cars, and what killed it for me was driving my '89 Escort Pony across two state lines to drop a friend off at school.
So have I (I rather spend my hard earned money on other things) My current Hyundai went from Chicago to Orlando and back (one day drive each way) keeping us relatively comfortable (as well as a few other long drives). Oh and to add no issues with the car until I hit about 131,500 miles (needed a new sensor).
Cars that may not have the most stellar resale value, but are genuinely enjoyable cars to own and have decent to middling resale. And, they will last a decade without completely falling apart.
Then you agree that resale value is not as big a deal as most people make it out to be.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I think all car enthusiasts see some "image" in their cars, as most enthusiast choices have a "good" image.
As an aside, I don't know if I would go as far as saying MB quality is "currently" slipping...I think the damage has been done and the recovery is starting. Current models have fared better than those of 5 years ago, and the W221 S class is getting raves at each test.
like from the back.
me: That is a very apt description; though I've heard many people liken it to a bird-beak.
And one of the worst things is Subaru plans on carrying that styling over to their other vehioles. Ugh!! Ly!! They ought to give their executives and designers drug-tests. I guess I'm going to cross Subaru off my list of potential vehicles.
All I'm saying is there is an increased risk of buying a car from a company that could go out of business next month; whatever company that is. Whether you risked buying a Chrysler product 25 years ago, or you buy an Isuzu today. You can be left with a worthless warranty. There is a risk that Hyundai and Kia, which are government supported companies, and the management of those companies could be eliminated by war. I'd estimate the risk is 3% any given year.
The Element isn't quite that bad - it would be like driving your own little UPS truck. Still, though, too much plastic and weird crap on it.
That Subaru, though, is revolting. It is honestly the ugliest car I have ever seen, and that includes the "pea soup green" or "big bird yellow" Azteks tooling around here. It's also much worse than the current CRV, which looks distinctly like a dung beetle. Or another favorite, the Hyundai Santa Fe, whose cartoonish looks imply that a dozen clowns are likely to jump out at any time.
The Subaru, though...it's bad Really, really bad. I saw it in person at the auto show, and it looks worse than the ad pictures. The car is just vile.
No, the two are not related. I won't drive a piece of junk because the car is a piece of junk, not because I'm worried what people will think of me. If I was worried about snob appeal, I'd lease a BMW like a good little yuppie. If I'm driving a Kia, for example, across the country, I'm going to be constantly worried about being stranded, not to mention getting sick from driving a little tin junkbox on the interstate.
JD Power is one as well as CR who both give the current Hyundais high marks.
Show me JD Power's 5 and 10 year quality rankings. Initial quality means nothing except your "out of the box" experience. Consumer Reports means nothing. You can have two identical cars (Ford Taurus and Merc Sable, for instance) have completely different ratings. If I want to buy a toaster, I'll read CR. If I want to buy a car, I'll go to various car forums and see what actual owners think of their cars.
Most of the time these days is your buying a name and an image. "You get what you pay for" is just a justification for paying more when you could get just as good for less.
This statement is completely bogus as it pertains to cars. I don't doubt that Costco brand trash bags are every bit as good as Glad bags, but a car is a pretty freakin' complicated device.
The phrase "you get what you pay for" does indeed make a lot of sense when buying a car. When you plunk down your ten, twenty, or thirty grand, you're buying a whole lot more than a heap of steel, rubber, and glass. You get:
1. An investment that you will want to recoup as much as possible. If you're not trading the car in in 2-3-4 years, then something that will run a decade without any major drivetrain failures.
2. A transportation device for you and your family that will run for years, without significant money spent to keep it roadworthy.
3. A car company, and hopefully a strong dealer network.
I don't think the Koreans are quite there yet.
To tell the truth I rather ride the Pinto for 200K miles and take the price difference and take a few cruises or trips to Europe.
Then, you and I have different priorities in life. A vacation is over with in a span of 1-2 weeks, but you have to live with your car the other 51 weeks of the year.
Then you agree that resale value is not as big a deal as most people make it out to be.
Well, it is a big deal, but not to the point that the Honda and Toyota "fanboys" make it out to be. When I buy a car, I look at a lot of things, primarily: "Is the car fun to drive", "Will the car hold up until I'm ready to get out of it?", and finally "Will I lose my shirt when I go to sell it because it has the resale value of month-old pizza?". Resale isn't usually the overriding factor when I buy a car, but that combined with the horror stories I've heard (past and recent), it's enough to leave Hyundai and Kia out of my consideration when shopping for a new car.
No its not, There are cars out there that are not worth what they cost, some that are worth what they cost and some that are a value. Case in point $100k is way to much for any car even if it is a BMW or a Benz. They are just way over priced. All you're doing is buying a name. You are NOT getting what you pay for.
The phrase "you get what you pay for" does indeed make a lot of sense when buying a car.
Ah if it was only true.
1. An investment that you will want to recoup as much as possible.
On its own a car is a terrible investment. If you are looking to minimize your loss on a car (face it it will always sell for less than what you paid for it) you don't want to be going around saying "you get what you pay for".
2. A transportation device for you and your family that will run for years, without significant money spent to keep it roadworthy.
You can get one of those for $15,000 or for $150,000, so I guess its not really a case of you get what you pay for.
3. A car company, and hopefully a strong dealer network.
Again you get those regardless of the value of the car.
Then, you and I have different priorities in life. A vacation is over with in a span of 1-2 weeks, but you have to live with your car the other 51 weeks of the year.
Yes I guess we do, the 50-100K difference can also pay for a lot of other things too, vacations were just an example. To be honest I rather put the funds into a retirement plan or my house (I do spend far more time in my house than my car).
When I buy a car, I look at a lot of things, primarily: "Is the car fun to drive",
Let me ask you this you have the choice of two cars car 'A' that is fun to drive and has a low resale value or car 'B' that is lousy to drive that you will hate but will have a high resale value. Which car will you buy?
Resale isn't usually the overriding factor when I buy a car, but that combined with the horror stories I've heard (past and recent), it's enough to leave Hyundai and Kia out of my consideration when shopping for a new car.
Well I will take your advice considering the horror stories I have heard about Toyota and Honda (past and recent) its enough to leave them out of consideration. Heck I can say that about any car.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Plus, the Sephia has class-leading engine power and room inside the cabin to offer me for my $7995.
The rest is, like they say, history. Just as sure as the 2006 Super Bowl was thrown by the NFL, Kia Motors is producing quality vehicles with awesome Warranty's for low prices. The Long-Haul does protect you, the buyer, too. I have needed to use it and it works. Oh, regarding time in the shop, it's not what people are acting like, that you're constantly running back and forth to your Kia dealer for service. Nope, that's not representative of the new world order Kia purchasing reality, my car-nutty friends.
Kia and Hyundai have arrived and don't really rely on Americans buying their products. They are truly a class worldwide operation as I type this and have been for many, many years.
The recent Super Bowl was thrown to enable illegal gambling fortunes to roll in. Hey, morons, you will pay a penalty for that. Only the penalty you will pay won't feel very nice to you, no TV and freshly-baked goods to enjoy while serving your time. For now, enjoy your bought-off earnings while you have time to enjoy them.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
BTW, I've been out of pocket for a while. Sounds like not much has changed around here. I think they should change the name of the board from Wouldn't be caught dead driving one to something like Korean Cars: Love em or hate em?
But I will throw in my two cents. Personally, I'm not a big fan of the Korean Cars. However, one of my friends drives a Kia Spectra and it seems - at least for him - to be good, reliable, and cheap transportation.
What I don't understand is how if they are every bit as good as any other brand, then why don't they hold any resale value? My friend owns his own car audio store and when he makes his next upgrade to his car's audio system, he will without a doubt cross the line where his stereo equipment is worth more than his car. So sad. :confuse:
We're not talking about luxury cars here. It's like wondering why tickets to a pro football game are $80, and tickets to the local high school varsity game are $5. Let's stay within the bread and butter cars here; the luxury cars operate in an entirely different economy-of-scale.
So, with this in mind, do I think an Accord is worth $3k more than its Hyundai equivalent? Undoubtedly, yes. You get a better (and more experienced) service network, easier parts availability, MUCH higher resale (more than that initial $3k difference, I assure you).
On its own a car is a terrible investment. If you are looking to minimize your loss on a car (face it it will always sell for less than what you paid for it) you don't want to be going around saying "you get what you pay for".
Why not? People buy cars for different reasons. Resale is only one ingredient.
3. A car company, and hopefully a strong dealer network.
Again you get those regardless of the value of the car.
How do you figure? I do not equate the brand "Kia" with "strong dealer network". My local Kia service department is choking to death on junk cars, and there are precious few Kia dealerships in my state. Contrast this to dozens of dealerships that sell other makes, that have been around decades longer than any Kia dealership.
Let me ask you this you have the choice of two cars car 'A' that is fun to drive and has a low resale value or car 'B' that is lousy to drive that you will hate but will have a high resale value. Which car will you buy?
We've played this game before, but I'd rather buy a fun to drive car with low resale. As I've said before, resale is just one reason why I choose the cars I do. It's important enough where I don't want to buy a bottom-feeder make, but not so important I'd buy a road appliance such as an Accord.
I did change my opinion on this at one point, though. I thought I'd rather own a fun-to-drive car over a reliable car when I bought my Volkswagen, but soon realized my mistake. That car was such a turd, I'd in all honesty rather buy one of those Hyundai Azheras over another Jetta. Yeah, the car was THAT bad, resale be damned.
Well I will take your advice considering the horror stories I have heard about Toyota and Honda (past and recent) its enough to leave them out of consideration. Heck I can say that about any car.
Well, the best we can do when shopping for a car is read, read, and read some more. Family and friend anecdotes are helpful for gauging the quality of a specific dealership's service department, but not necessarily the quality of a car itself. The internet is a great tool; Edmund's is actually one of the reasons I bought my Maxima. I loved my rental of the car so much I KNEW I wanted it, but first I visited the forums here and elsewhere to see what kind of problems people were having with them.
It was almost comical how few horror stories I saw for Maximas. Oh, they were there, as you point out not every car is flawless, but so few I figured my odds were good. Next week represents the third year I've owned that car, and knock on wood, I haven't had a single problem with it. I drive it HARD, too. :P
The other area I like to look at is the NHTSA web site. The worst thing I saw there for my era of Maxima ('02/'03) was that the white gauges on the SE model were hard to see in the daylight. Uh, ok. :lemon:
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/complain/complaintsearch.cfm
No we are talking about cars, you did say that my statement was bogus when it applied to cars. Now you want to qualify it? I stand by the statement that with cars you don't always get what you pay for.
So, with this in mind, do I think an Accord is worth $3k more than its Hyundai equivalent?
Actually its more like $4k+ more, and No you don't get all that back at resale. FWIW If I pay $4k more at the time of purchase I better get $4.5K more back three years years and that isn't going to happen.
You get a better (and more experienced) service network,
better/more experienced is a function of the individual working on your car. Trust me you can just as easily get an incompetent inexperienced Honda Mechanic as you can one from Hyundai. Anyways I only go to the dealership for warranty work (something I only had to do once with one car).
We've played this game before, but I'd rather buy a fun to drive car with low resale.
Then you agree resale value (which admittedly can not be determined at this point) is not that meaningful when it comes to buying a car.
How do you figure?
Because every make has a dealer network, and that dealer network is only as strong as the individual dealer. I for one would never take a car into my local Honda dealer for any type of work. Thats nothing against Honda and everything against the dealer who basically stinks. There is another Honda dealer not to far that I wouldn't send my worst enemy to (the owner used to have another dealership that did un-needed repairs oft times just switching parts between two different cars). Again this is nothing against Honda, but if you have a bad dealer a strong dealer network is meaningless.
Well, the best we can do when shopping for a car is read, read, and read some more. Family and friend anecdotes are helpful for gauging the quality of a specific dealership's service department, but not necessarily the quality of a car itself.
So if someone who owns a car tells me about their experience with it I should just shrug it off and listen to people who never been in the car (or even those who cannot even spell the cars name correctly)?
Tell me how many miles do you have on that Maxima?
I got over 130K on my Hyundai before anything went wrong (had to have a sensor replaced), its hard to beat that.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
me: That is always true, but very vague. The dollars I use to buy something are always perfect, while physical products are not perfect.
But in general when you pay more, you get more; not always - as people can make poor decisions. For instance I have a $6 watch from Walmart, that tells time well and has a light, and a stopwatch. Now you can argue it is functionally good as a watch costing hundreds or thousands, but it does not provide all the benefits.
It seems like you keep measuring Driving by the cost per mile. Your main concern is the purchase cost, the resale, your gas cost ...? Do you recommend everyone should buy their clothes at Wal-mart because they'll get the lowest cost / hour worn? Or to buy a 19" TV over a large-screen because the cost / hour of viewing is the lowest?
you: I got over 130K on my Hyundai before anything went wrong (had to have a sensor replaced), its hard to beat that.
me: You could get 500K miles on that car, and if (not saying it is) it's boring I still wouldn't want to drive it. If the Maxima was nice and fun-to-drive I wouldn't care if it was in the shop a couple of times a year.
true and sometimes those poor decisions can mean paying more and not getting more.
Remember just because you pay more doesn't mean you get more.
It seems like you keep measuring Driving by the cost per mile.
If I was I would be advocating getting a Chevy Aveo special value for under $10k. however I am looking for the best bang for the buck and keeping the bucks to a respectable level.
Do you recommend everyone should buy their clothes at Wal-mart because they'll get the lowest cost / hour worn? Or to buy a 19" TV over a large-screen because the cost / hour of viewing is the lowest?
No, thats not what I am saying. What I would recommend that if you want the 50 inch big screen TV don't automatically buy the most expensive one because generally you won't get a better one. In other words if 'A' and 'B' are comparable why buy 'A' if its far more expensive.
All you seem to be doing is justifying paying more for the same thing.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
me: No that would be recommending buying a new Maxima (or any model) for $28K when the Nissan dealer in the next town has the same exact car+options for $26K.
There is a difference in brand value, and driving experience between a Maxima and other vehicles. The value of those differences is up to each individual to rate how much it's worth. There certainly are differences between car models/brands like Hyundai to Cadillace to Bentley; just like there are differences between the $6 Chinese Walmart watch to the Movado watch, to the Rolex.
Yes all the cars will get you to your destination usually, and all the watches will tell you time, but that doesn't mean they're the same.
Certain brands of cars (which brands, have changed over the years)are have always been looked down upon. Chevy, Ford are relatively new to the looked-down group, having joined the Koreans. In general the lower priced brands have been looked down-on. Why? Because your choice of car says a lot about your successs in life. Driving a nice, more expensive car announces you have money; and you d get better treatment in life. There is "value" to that.
There is also a perceived difference and an actual difference which is usually NOT the same.
There certainly are differences between car models/brands like Hyundai to Cadillac to Bentley;
But we are not talking about the difference between a Hyundai and a Bentley, but between two similar cars in the same class.
Because your choice of car says a lot about your successs in life.
Sam Walton drove around in an old pick up truck, I guess he wasn't successful. I know someone who drives around in an escort, must not be successful even though he is worth millions.
Driving a nice, more expensive car announces you have money;
Some people with money don't want to announce that, others without the means over extend themselves to give that impression.
and you d get better treatment in life.
I find I don't get better treatment when I drive the Caddy over the Hyundai. And if the car you drive improves your standing with your friends and neighbors then your friends and neighbors are snobs.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I think you'd be surprised. Ask in "Real World Trade-in Values" how much a 4 year old Accord vs. a 4 year old Hyundai with similar miles and options is worth.
better/more experienced is a function of the individual working on your car. Trust me you can just as easily get an incompetent inexperienced Honda Mechanic as you can one from Hyundai. Anyways I only go to the dealership for warranty work (something I only had to do once with one car).
The salient point here is that the dealership is the face of the corporation. If I have a problem with a Honda's service dept., I can call Honda and they'll take care of me. Kia will tell me to get bent, judging from the stories I've read here and elsewhere. Plus, if one Honda dealership's service dept. is awful, I can simply go to another Honda dealer. With Kia, you may not have that option, due to the lack of dealerships.
So if someone who owns a car tells me about their experience with it I should just shrug it off and listen to people who never been in the car (or even those who cannot even spell the cars name correctly)?
You should take their experience as a single data point and then measure it up to the things you read on the internet *by other people who own that car*, or who work in the industry. Example, my parents have a Nissan Quest whose transmission grenaded on them. Now, I've done some reading up, and this is not at all a problem common to Quests, let alone Nissan. Consider it's the only problem they've had with the van, I wouldn't allow this incident to keep me from buying a Quest.
We've played this game before, but I'd rather buy a fun to drive car with low resale.
Then you agree resale value (which admittedly can not be determined at this point) is not that meaningful when it comes to buying a car.
That's not at all what I said. You must have missed my statement, "Resale is only one ingredient when buying a car" and "I care enough about resale so that I would never buy a car from a bottom feeder brand". You're reading something into my statement that isn't there. Resale is VERY meaningful for anyone who buys a car if they're going to flip it in <5 years. For me it's not the #1 or even #2 consideration (that would be your typical Toyota/Honda buyer, I'd bet), but for a lot of people, it is.
One of my pet peeves, and this isn't directed at you, is when someone says, "Oh, I'll buy a junk brand, I don't care about resale, I drive all my cars until the wheels fall off anyway!". These people have obviously led charmed lives when it comes to buying cars. There are precious few worse feelings in the world to buy a new car and have it break down *constantly*, especially when you depend on that car every day. I went through that with my Volkswagen, and that's why I've changed the way I buy cars.
My primary rule, and you will find this difficult to believe, is that I always buy a new car in its last or second to last model year. I've seen and heard enough to know that it takes EVERY auto mfg a solid 2-3 years to bang most of the bugs out of a new car. Even if there are no nasty bugs to deal with (exploding transmissions, etc.), most manufacturers improve the car to such a huge degree that it's almost as if the car is finally living up to the mfg's original vision for the car.
I'm thinking of my wife's Ford Escape, which she bought in its maiden model year (2001). It wasn't a BAD car, and the problems we had with it were small, but an '06 Escape is at least twice the car that one was. They fixed EVERYTHING, even the small(ish) things like putting the shifter on the floor and additional sound insulation. For my '03 Maxima, notable changes from the '00 include a much more powerful engine, more gadgets for the same price, and a nicer interior.
Ironically, part of the problem with doing this is that your resale will go down faster because the car is outdated almost immediately. If it's the right car, though, it doesn't affect the resale THAT much.
I have and ran the numbers, you lose out on the Honda.
You should take their experience as a single data point and then measure it up to the things you read on the internet
I have and my point still stands.
That's not at all what I said.
Sounds like you said it.
My primary rule, and you will find this difficult to believe, is that I always buy a new car in its last or second to last model year. I've seen and heard enough to know that it takes EVERY auto mfg a solid 2-3 years to bang most of the bugs out of a new car.
I agree with the waiting 2-3 years into a models run, but waiting until just before they stop making a model? Or do you mean just before its remade? I bought my Mustang in its first (revamped) model year back in 1981(?) it ran perfectly until someone made a left turn in front of me (wasn't the same after that).
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I drive a big black Cadillac I ain't even paid for yet
I had to sell off the furniture just to make the rent
I wear expensive suits I can't afford to clean
So I freshen my old rags and seldom make the scene
They think I'm rich. It's just a guess.
It's secret success!
It's so secret I don't even know about it!
The Powder Blues Band
Don't a lot of well-off people actually lease high-end cars? At least the ones that find a way to write it off as a business expense?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
And yeah, leases are a big thing. I've seen remotely affordable S class leases, and certainly affordable deals on 5ers, Eclass, Escalade, etc.
Some do. In many cases, they just like the ability to turn the vehicle in every 2-3 years without the hassles of private sales or trade-ins.
Most of my friends like to buy slightly used luxury vehicles.
I have been driving a 2004 Chrysler 300M this week. Nice vehicle but way too many gadgets in the vehicle. I gave one employee the opportunity to trade his 2003 Chrysler Concorde for it but was turned down.