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In a way thats whats nice about the future cars. No price tags so everyone can afford it, for now.
I'm increasingly the same way...it's like drooling over supermodels.
It reminds me alot of the movie "Collateral", where the the Jaime Foxx character dreams of putting together a luxury limo company of high-end Mercedes sedans; as far as he's concerned, nothing else will do. But in the meantime, his "temporary" job of driving a cab is now going on 10 years. It takes a very pointed (and cool) soliquoy by the Tom Cruise character to make him realize he needs to wake up, shake off his fantasies and deal in reality before it's too late and life has passed him by.
My C43 AMG is fairly immaculate with low miles, and I paid about the price of a decent Civic for it. It may not be as practical or economical to run, but enjoyment comes at a cost.
I'd never go out and buy myself a Ford 500, but if one was provided for me, I'd drive it happily and put my current car payment in the bank. :P
I too keep my automotive dreams grounded. At the auto show you'll find me checking out the latest "obtainable" (for the masses) cars rather than the latest $110k Porsche that will exist only as my screen saver.
me: I'll take it to mean that by "affording" an exotic you mean not just the purchase price of the exotic, but a lifestyle to make it practical.
Because almost anyone who has owned property 15+ years has enough equity to buy a mercedes, Lexus, or Hummer, and probably many people could buy a Ferrari. However very few people are going to decide to use a lot of house-equity or 401K funds to buy an exotic car.
I rememver the old rule-of-thumb was that you're spending too much on a car when the car's cost was over 50% of your annual income. Figuring you might keep the car 5 years and the car isn't worth much then, that really means the car would be 10% of your income over that time. Of course that pretty much goes for middle income people.
Wait a minute, I haven't bought the 2006 Kia Rio5 yet.
Two eastern Idahoans are now interested in the Tropical Red 2006 Kia Rio5 at Robert Allen Kia in Pocatello, ID. Which one of us will buy it first?
Must go to work on it, now. There's no time to kill. :P
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I just think that if you play your cards right, you can get something cool for normal car money. Of course, one needs to have money set aside for maintenance. The people doing it all for image usually get burned in that regard. Personally, I don't care what the general public thinks about the car, although I don't mind getting noticed by MB enthusiasts. On that note, over the weekend I ran into a guy at a gas station with one of those late 80s BMW M5s, the ones that are always seen in black. I mentioned the car to him in passing, he seemed to act like most people don't notice.
I've seen more obviously fake M3's than I've seen fake Integra type R's. Some fake M5's too. One M7. One of the "M3" guys told me it does work on the girls though. To them, he is what he drivels.
The car I saw was one of those ca. 1988 models...it was real, had the right wheels and sat right.
me: well at least they bought from the same manufacturer. That's not as bad as all the people who run to Hong Kong and such to get immitation designer goods, that have NO relationship to the original manufacturer. How many girls are running around with imitation designer dresses, purses, and shoes?
Reality is what you believe it is, isn't it? We didn't learn anything about human behavior from the Internet stock bubble?
I prefer to keep my automotive fantasies grounded in reality.
I couldn't agree more.. That's probably why my fantasies involve an Altima SE-R. :P
But anyway, with me being a 21y/o male with a love for Nissans, what "stereotypes" could be associated with me driving an (auto/fully loaded)'01 Maxima SE 20th Ann.?
(I had the choice of a 5-sp or auto when I bought the car.. I had to go with the auto because I think i'm the only male in the state of IL who doesn't know how to drive stick.)
I have no idea what that says about him.
:P
Rocky
Well...it would depend on if he "needed" a big gas gusslin SUV wouldn't it?
If he needed it to pull his 40 ft yacht, go off roading or mount a machine gun on it to fight over in Iraq... then it may be ok.(Which I believe is your position)
But, if one buys a Hummer because they just like the looks, the ride, the safty, the color...anything else, well you would say they are irresponsible and inconsiderate...the worst U.S citizen since Benedict Arnold. (Again, your position?)
My position is buy whatever you like. Buy what you need. It's a free country...express your vehicular needs or wants any way you wish. It doesn't make you a poor citizen or irresponsible to Planet Earth to purchase a big SUV...they meet the emissions standards set fourth by the U.S government. They are about the safest vehicle you can put your family in. MPG right up there with the minivans. Whatever you buy...drive responsibly and safely.
I thought I would find you over here li sailor.
Discontinued.
Generally, sure...but an H1? Big on the outside maybe, but tiny on the inside, making it supremely impractical...so my guess is that owning an H1 is pretty much an exercise in exhibitionism. Same for the H2, really, except that has practical value....plus a healthy dose of exhibitionism
...would say they are irresponsible and inconsiderate...the worst U.S citizen since Benedict Arnold. (Again, your position?)
Irresponsible and inconsiderate? Absolutely. And a lousy citizen, though hardly the worst since Benedict Arnold, or even Dubya
My position is buy whatever you like.
That's mine, too. Sometimes you are what you buy.
It's a free country...
I think we all know this. And we are free to act irresponsibly, within the law. I wouldn't want it any other way...I would just prefer that folks be more responsible.
...they meet the emissions standards...
LOL, LTV standards, sure...but they emit many times the amount per mile that cars do, which have a different standard.
They are about the safest vehicle you can put your family in.
Large ones are, but mid SUVs (most of them) are not. And the large ones are mostly because they crush smaller vehicles while stealing their crumple zones for their own protection. So system-wise, they lower safety overall.
MPG right up there with the minivans.
Most MVs get far better mpg than large SUVs, although it's true that mid size SUVs and MVs get similar mpg.
Whatever you buy...drive responsibly and safely.
Always good advice. But sometimes the driver is not the problem.
I thought I would find you over here li sailor.
Yeah, Steve is a PITA sometimes, but occasionally, I take his advice. Sometimes, it's really paid off. And sometimes, it lets me get more work done
You know, now I can't look at this topic without thinking of "Drivel?"
Me too. I just don't think it is irresponsible to be buying that big SUV when one doesn't "need" it.
Out of all the things people are irresponsible about these days(i.e teen pregnancy, drugs, violence, managing their money/life....)someone buying a big SUV would be the least of my worries. I think it "is" the driver(98% of the time), not the vehilce. But... that's me.
If you have any ideas on how to go about solving this "SUV" problem of irresposibility, I'd sure like to hear them.
Well, you're just...wrong :=) Unless of course, you think wasting gas, polluting the air and increasing the danger to others for no practical reason is consisten with good citizenship. In which case...we disagree.
Out of all the things people are irresponsible about...
I always love this argument...there are things worse, so it's ok. Try using that one to explain to your boss why you did no work today :=)
I think it "is" the driver...
Well, it depends on what "it" is. Move the same driver from a Camry to an H1 and there's a big difference in externalities. And it ain't the driver.
If you have any ideas on how to go about solving this "SUV" problem of irresposibility...
Well...sure. Point out the problem and hope some folks recognize the trade-off and do the right thing. Like anything else, it's hit or miss.
So, when is there a "practical" reason to waste gas, pollute the air and increase the danger to others? An "ethical" person, as well as a good citizen, would say it is never okay.
But, I disagree that a non "needy" SUV owner is wasting gas, polluting the air or being an increase of a danger to others. Unless, of course they are driving on 5 year old air filters, with fouled spark plugs, no exhaust system and are running on tires with a psi of 12.
A bigger cars use of fuel, increase in pollution and danger to others is a reflection of its size...from the little Suzuki Aerio(small car) to the mammoth Ford Expedition. Or, as you would say, "no duh"
I have noticed you have had both monster SUV's and pick up trucks? Curious. But, you need these vehicles to pull your sail boat? Your use of large SUV and pick up truck for recreational purposes is no different than Joe Six Packs use of their large vehicle for recreational purposes(bought because of looks, image, ride, power, anything nonneed)
Some may say you are putting others in danger(pulling a big sailboat) for your own enjoyment...using your logic.
Did you drive your SUV and pickup when you weren't pulling your boat?
Use, practicality and "need" are in the eye of the beholder. Responsibility in driver saftey should be the focus, not on driver choice of vehicles.
Point out the problem and hope some folks recognize
That's it? If you think this SUV problem is "real", you're going to need to come up with something better than that. But, I sincerely wish you good luck sailor. Your heart is in the right place...but I don't know about your logic.
Or if I pull out of my driveway on my quiet residential street one morning, and some idiot comes flying over the blind hill at a ridiculous rate of speed and ends up impaling themselve on my rear bumper, again, whatever. They did it to themselves. They chose to drive in a dangerous manner, and they paid the consequence.
I guess I just look at it from the opposite end of the spectrum. The SUV/full-sized truck tends to be demonized, because people drive them carelessly/aggressively/etc. But people do that all the time, in all types of vehicles. It's just that when you're driving a hulking beast, many would-be threats just become mere annoyances.
In the end, an SUV or standard-sized truck, or ANY vehicle, is just a tool. Not inherently good or bad. It's like a shovel (I'm not going to use the gun analogy because guns ARE made to kill). Anyway, a shovel can be used to dig a hole. Or it can be used to whack someone upside the head. And THEN be used to dig a hole to hide the body. :surprise: But without the human factor, it's just a tool.
Ok, that statement was redundant, for emphasis
But, I disagree that a non "needy" SUV owner is wasting gas...
It's hard to disagree based on reality. A person that has no vehicular need for a Suburban...needs only a car...is wasting the gas that the Sub uses over the car. OTOH, if one requires the Sub for hauling or towing or whatever, then that isn't the case. Likewise, the added danger to others and the pollution.
Bigger vehicles get the better of smaller vehicles in a collision...
True, and so getting something bigger than you need is usually not a good idea. But the argument against SUVs is not a linear one, weight-wise. The stiffer ladder frame and the higher ground clearance makes them much worse. Of course, this mostly applies to truck-based SUVs, but most mid-sized SUVs are still truck based and all large ones are.
Why not pick-up trucks?
Pickups are not as convenient as family vehicles as SUVs are. A much higher % of PUs are actually used for something that requires them...much more than SUVs. In any case, an unneeded PU is just as bad, sure...feel free to add them to the "poor choice list" :=)
I have noticed you have had both monster SUV's and pick up trucks? Curious.
Not really. Yes, I towed my sailboat with the SUV, but I decided that it wasn't worth the externalities and now I borrow a PU for that. I owned the pickup for a few months to tow my son's 442 back from auto school, no other purpose. Did that on Steve's suggestion, actually made money on the transaction...even after reg & taxes.
...recreational purposes is no different than Joe Six Packs use of their large vehicle for recreational purposes(bought because of looks, image, ride, power, anything nonneed)...
LOL...as if recreational use (to tow 8000 lbs of boat, for ex) were no more practical in nature than owning an SUV for image. That's pretty funny
Did you drive your SUV and pickup when you weren't pulling your boat?
Again, a specious argument. It's not reasonable to expect someone to own a different vehicle for each "level" of requirement they have. If you carry 5 people on only half your trips and only yourself the rest, should you own a 2 seater and a sedan? You buy for maximum reasonable requirements, not minimum. The fact is that the vast majority of SUV owners tow nothing, do no heavy hauling and no offroading. And do not need an SUV for any vehicular purpose.
Use, practicality and "need" are in the eye of the beholder.
Sorry, that's BS. Uses that require specific physical atttributes of a vehicle to perform a vehicular purpose (like, um, transportation?) are vehicular requirements. Others are not, including image, looks, etc.
If you think this SUV problem is "real", you're going to need to come up with something better than that.
Actually, no...I can think it's real and do absolutely nothing. I can give my opinion on the subject in a car forum and have pretty much used the forum for what it was intended for (forumular purpose?). But to go beyond that....if one thinks (as I do) that the best solution to folks mindlessly (or carelessly) making dumb choices, society-wise, is to have better knowledge, then this is a good (if small) start.
...but I don't know about your logic.
You haven't really tested it yet
Yeah, funny, that's true for everyone, just like 90% of drivers are above average :=)
Anyone can be in an accident, and the difference between a Camry-Camry and a Camry-Suburban collision is pretty drastic in terms of results. Putting those 2 facts together gives a pretty good assessment of the issue.
If you choose to cut me off in your little car...
It's easy to demonize the potential victim to get oneself off the hook, like "whoever gets hurt could be a convict or drunk...so why should I worry", but it's not a very reasonable argument. It could also be an innocent honor student on the way to the hospice and you (in a remarkable moment of humanness) who missed the stop sign.
In any case, the issue is not about you...the collective ability of the SUV-driving public is undoubtedly average.
The SUV/full-sized truck tends to be demonized, because people drive them carelessly/aggressively/etc.
Anyone, in any vehicle, can drive recklessly, it's pretty irrelevant to the effect of the vehicle itself. And no, SUVs get demonized for being used irresponsibly as if they were cars. Or, even worse (and many have admitted this here on TH), they buy it solely to make themselves safer at the expense of others, by stealing the crumple zones of cars...of course, this only works when most vehicles are cars (they still are, overwhelmingly).
...ANY vehicle, is just a tool. Not inherently good or bad.
Absolutely true. However, use, or mis-use is a different matter altogether. A chain saw's purpose is to cut wood, just a tool. But if one uses one for no practical purpose (walks thru a crowd with it running) they are endangering others...and it ain't the tool's fault there, either.
A person that owns an SUV when they have no vehicular use that requires it over a car is engaging in similar mis-use. And they are what they drive...
But hey, how about them Mets?
LOL. Somebody is awfully full of themselves aren't they? :surprise: I can see it wouldn't be "logical" to carry this discussion much further.
But, your anti "need" postings on SUV's goes back over a year. Like I stated, since you feel so strongly about the danger and waste of large SUV's (from nonessential owners) then perhaps you should try to do more. Someone as articulate as yourself, and well versed in rhetoric and spin, may make a difference(and I mean that with no disrespect).
Hey, you questioned my logic, I considered that presumptuous. If you can't stand the heat....
But, your anti "need" postings on SUV's goes back over a year.
Actually, it goes back several years here on TH...back to '01 IIRC.
Like I stated, since you feel so strongly about the danger and waste of large SUV's (from nonessential owners) then perhaps you should try to do more.
Like I said, I do what I choose, thanks. It's funny that you want me to more about something you feel is not an important issue. Hard to fathom the logic in that :=)
...well versed in rhetoric and spin...
Sometimes, "spin" is what we call an argument we can't refute
Yeah? Isn't that what "we've" been doing the past week in these discussions? Questioning the others position/logic. I took no offense, neither should you.
Actually, it goes back several years
Yeah? I stated over a year. I thought I would be polite in not mentioning that it went back that far.
Like I said, I do what I choose, thanks. It's funny that you want me to do more about something you feel is not an important issue.
What is more funny is that you do very little over what you consider such an important issue.
Do what you like,...I could care less(with all due respect)
But, you brought up all this "stuff" about being a responsible citizen. I'm just thinking why an intelligent responsible citizen such as yourself is not doing more?
Take it easy, sailor.
Who's offended? I just thought you hadn't tested it, really.
I thought I would be polite in not mentioning that it went back that far.
I have no issue with being regarded as consistent or persistent. As long as it's accurate
What is more funny is that you do very little...
I've already pointed out the fallacy of that argument. I would suggest we stick to the issue, rather than getting personal.
But, you brought up all this "stuff" about being a responsible citizen.
In context, yes...which was, "what we drive". I don't think the topic here is "You Are What You Post!?".
Although it might be an interesting topic.
In any case, this is like deja vu. My history here, on this subject, with many folks, in several different topics, was pretty consistent. When folks didn't like where the discussion went and especially when they had trouble with rational discussion, they turned to personal criticism.
Oh well, it was fun for a few moments. It's probably better that I get more work done, anyway
But this weekend, I actually saw a girl and a guy getting out of one. I wanted to go over and ask why they bought it, but I couldn't think of a way to do it without sounding like I was criticizing them.
Sure, I kinda am, but I'm open to good reasons for owning a vehicle like this in an urban area. (I do think regardless that they should be forced to pay for two parking spaces though!)
Would you include minivans? I see the Odyssey is actually 12 inches longer than the H2. It is 3 inches narrower than the Hummer. I would say the Honda should pay even more than the H2 for the additonal square footage it takes up in the garage. We may have to add the Camry in this extra charge as it is the same length as a Hummer2.
The "discussion" had pretty much run its course. Anything further would have been "redundant", off topic...resulting in a possible flogging from our host. So, as I posted...I was just curious if you are more involved in this, " Crusade For SUV Responsbility" than just 5 years of postings to members at Edmunds.
I will throw you a bone though sailor, as a gesture of goodwill. I personally would not buy a vehilce that I did not "need". But, if someone else chose to buy a large SUV that wasn't essential...then I certainly wouldn't say they are irresponsible or a poor citizen. You do. Neither one of us is going to change the others mind...and my motivation behind posting isn't to get "wins" as some members do. So, I guess it's time to move on.
As you said, it was fun for a few moments. NOW, it's back to work for you. ME? I'm going 4 wheelin. :shades:
But to me, the real issue with the H2 is the apparent total disregard for "good citizenship". It guzzles gas (about 10 mpg), weighs over 3 tons and would completely annihilate any car in a collision. If there's a reason other than "in your face" conspicuous consumption to buy this thing, I'd like to hear it.
I thought "I don't know about your logic" was rude, and I typically respond in kind to that kind of stuff.
I was just curious if you are more involved in this, " Crusade For SUV Responsbility"
I think telling me that I should be doing X goes well beyond curiousity, which usually involves questions, not admonishments.
...if someone else chose to buy a large SUV that wasn't essential...then I certainly wouldn't say they are irresponsible or a poor citizen.
Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion, but I think your definition of "good citizen" is suspect. As I understand the concept, it is not consistent with wasting scarce resources and endangering others for poor reasons.
See ya.
I'd actually just like hear a reason...I don't personally know anyone who owns one of these monsters, so I don't have anyone to ask "what was your thought process when you looked at getting one of these?".
And for the record, I have no problem with people buying these things...I just wonder what their motivation is, that's all. The supposed H2 owners I saw were normal-looking, everyday people, and they were off-loading grocery bags.
hmmm, well it is not real roomy. I guess it is like someone that buys a sporty car, to show their individuality. You are what you drive is the topic. If buying a vehicle was just for need, I would think we would all be in a Scion Xb. It don't get much more utilitarian than that.
I wonder if there was all this fuss when a guy would buy a 16 hand horse when a 14 hand horse was more than adequate. The bigger horse would eat more hay and expel more CO2. And of course spew more road apples along the trail.