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Comments
I'd like to see the actual prices that people pay. There are so many incentives and rebates these days that it's hard to keep track.
I've read that the actual transaction prices of the new Malibu are higher than the transaction prices for the OLD one, which is certainly good for GM, but that doesn't mean it is necessarily selling for more than comparable Camrys.
Again, we need proof that Camry's transaction prices are lower than those of the Malibu. It's entirely possible that this is so, but looking at newspaper ads can't tell us this.
Camry sells 400,000 units every year because it has an excellent reputation for quality, comfort, refinement and resale value. The Malibu does not (I can tell you all about my mother-in-law's 2000 and 2004 Malibus - no one would trade a Camry for them). The image left by those older Malibus isn't going to be wiped away by the new one after two years on the market.
It will take at least another generation as good as this one - along with good ratings in Consumer Reports surveys - to really change that perception.
I know that this is hard for GM fans to swallow, but today's Camry is the 21st version century of the early 1960s full-size Chevrolet - a car bought for its comfort, reliability, refinement and resale value. It's the new "safe" choice. GM abdicated its once-golden position by building subpar passenger cars and then chasing light truck and SUV profits, and Toyota has grabbed it.
Like it or not, Toyota is the new Chevrolet. All we need is the 21st century version of Dinah Shore warbling that we should, "See the USA in your...Toyota."
I can't even respond to that, I'm so bewildered by that comment that I'm going to leave Edmunds for good, and wonder round in the desert naked for a couple of years.
Regards,
OW
Japan to buy JP Morgan. What does that mean? They get to rate American companies and get their stocks to fall, creating more buyout opportunity.
Basic transportation is when you don't get to brag about your car's reasle value? Classy is when you can, but the house next door is for sale 'foreclosure'?
Japan doesn't pay interest, it charges interest.
Well, the combination of a reliable vehicle and a more vehicle friendly climate means that things don't wear out as fast. If you have been programmed that you need to buy a new car every 3 years, bless you, the economy needs you.
I wasn't slighting the domestic manufacturers, my experience with most relatively modern domestic nameplates has been very positive.
In the Midwest where a lot of American cars 'used to' be made, our house payments for an identical house are under $1000 Not being house poor, we don't have to get the car that squeezes an extra $500 in resale value for year one, or one extra mpg, or needs 0.3 less repairs in the first 3 years of ownership, and keeps good jobs here.
Well, I wasn't house poor until recently, when my home in the midwest lost 30% its value in the last 4 years. I would love to live in your neighborhood where value isn't important. How do I get into that country club?
When you mention "good jobs here," are you referring to a neighborhood in Hermosillo, Mexico or perhaps something in Ontario, Camada? Or
Lafayette, IN, Marysville, OH, or Louisville, KY?
Japan to buy JP Morgan. What does that mean? They get to rate American companies and get their stocks to fall, creating more buyout opportunity.
Yeah, because that worked so well for them in the 80s with real estate...
Basic transportation is when you don't get to brag about your car's resale value? Classy is when you can, but the house next door is for sale 'foreclosure'?
I never understood how a car's best feature could be getting rid of it.
Japan doesn't pay interest, it charges interest.
This what happens when you have a government that understands what a big industry that involves a lot of technology and a lot of manufacturing can do for a country's economy, vs a government that treats a cherished industry like a red-headed step child.
Theoretically, that could be any neighborhood. As long as you've lived there long enough, and don't need to sell anytime soon! Heck, I'm sort of hoping prices fall a little more around here, because there's a 1-acre plot that adjoins the east side of my yard, and 5.5 acres to the north that shares about 135 feet of boundary with my yard, that I want to snatch up when the owners are ready to sell!
I'd imagine that anybody who's bought in the past 4-5 years though, and needs to move soon, is feeling the hurt.
If you have been programmed that you need to buy a new car every 3 years, bless you, the economy needs you.
Y'know, there might be some truth to that, that many of us are "programmed"! I remember when the '02 Altima came out, I wanted to trade my '00 Intrepid on one! In a mixed blessing though, I was so upside down on it, partly because of the high mileage (~60K miles) and partly because, well, it's a Dodge Intrepid :shades: that I decided to hang onto it. I was paying $347 per month for the Trep, and at that point I still owed $11,300 on it. If I had traded the Trep, it would have put me to about $480 per month, for a 4-cyl Altima S. I'm just thankful that I came to my senses. The Intrepid was paid off in November 2004. Had I made this swap, I would've been making payments on that Altima until March of 2007!
Yeah to me that is pretty much a no-brainer, but does that mean all the Mexican Fords and Canadian GM vehicles will also be subject to the tariff? What about Hondas and Toyotas manufactured in the US?
Yeah, that's about what it would have been. That was if I had financed for 60 months, rolled the Intrepid's negative equity into the new loan (about $4800 at the time) and only put a bare minimum down, like $2,000.
In retrospect I'm REALLY glad I didn't do it!
Move to Texas. We never had a housing bubble here. We had a few slow years in '06 and '07, where inventory grew. But now everything's humming along.
You can buy new tract homes here for $75 per sq. ft., and semi-custom homes for $100 per sq. ft.
" the values fall on Crown Vics, as in three years time sold for less than a three year old Civic"
I've said for years that if you're going to buy an American car, buy it used. If you're going to buy a Japanese car, buy it new. Resale value works in your favor in both cases. Although the liquidation prices that Ford and GM are offering now on new cars certainly make them attractive.
Overall, the guiding factor should be how long you plan to keep the car. If it's only 2 or 3 years, reliability isn't really a factor, so buy whatever car you want. If it's longer than 5 years. the Japanes still have the edge in reliability and resale price.
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GM cars generally had good resale value in the 1950s and 1960s. Until the early 1970s, a used full-size Chevrolet was worth about $200 more than a comparable full-size Ford. And Cadillacs had the lowest depreciation rate of ANY car sold in America during the 1950s. In the 1960s, VW Beetles matched Cadillacs for depreciation rate, but Cadillacs still held their value best among all domestic cars. The Dodge Dart and Plymouth Valiant/Duster with the slant six and Torqueflite were also sought-after used cars.
Today the domestic passenger cars are hammered by a reputation for subpar reliability and too many fleet sales to rental car companies. (Although I don't know if the Crown Victoria is a good example of poor resale value among domestic cars - Ford has not sold the car to retail customers for a few years, and those taxi and police cars that show up on the used car market have been pretty well thrashed. The Ford Panther cars have a very good reputation for durability.) But since this reputation tars some otherwise good cars, there are good values to be had among domestic used cars.
This may have changed with the recent run-up in gas prices, but I do know that people did seek out the full-size GM trucks and SUVs on the used vehicle market.
Best deals out there. I bought my 07 Expedition for 1/2 what a new one cost. It drives nice, plenty of room, tows our boat/camper, and is a great family vehicle. 14-19mpg doesn't bother me. I had budgeted to spend $40-50k this year for a new SUV. The $20k I saved will buy a lot of gas for the SUV and the boat.
During the week I might put 50 miles on it with just me in it. Most of the miles are on the weekends with the boat in tow and/or a weekends worth of gear to the lake where we keep our travel trailer.
Biggest Chevy Dealerships Close Down
Scary stuff.
Regards,
OW
I've always wondered if these "high resale" cars are so fantastic, why is everybody willing to dump them in such a short time? Do they really believe their Camcord is all that or do they really secretly fear their ride will fall apart if they keep it longer? If a Camcord really is that awesome, I should get one to last for 50 years.
And here's my oft-repeated answer to the whole resale value argument: Buying a car I don't like just because it has better resale value is still throwing money away in my book.
Biggest Chevy Dealerships Close Down
Scary stuff.
Hardly scary, unless you work at that dealership. Toyota has 1/3 the number of dealers Ford and Chevy do. Their distribution channels are leaner and more effective. In most places, the dealers are further apart so there is less competition between dealers resulting in higher transaction prices.
This is improving the overall health of the market. This was WAYYYY to long in coming.
Right on point.
A Ford dealership here 'bouts lasted about 1.5 years after purchasing a long-standing store. Ford is actively reducing number of stores by weeding out weakly performing stores.
I did a quick search about Heard and found a lot of comments about how they do business in response to the article. Same had happened about a store that was forced to close in Nashville a couple years ago.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Hope GM survives as at least Cadillac and Chevy / Corvette, and Ford makes it some how. I no longer see much hope in Chrysler. The Ford Fiesta looks pretty good up against the Honda Fit. Too bad the Mustang did not get the 3.5 V6 earlier. They are selling the GT and current V6 at good prices, but so low it has to hurt. They need to sell above $25K and $20K to make it. At $8k off V8 and $5K off V6, it ain't looking pretty. Sure the buyer likes the low price, but the dealerships are closing.
Just an FYI, my Camry was Kentucky assembled with 75% NA parts content, not Japan. Most of the US assembled Hondas and Toyotas that I've seen are above 50% NA parts content.
I don't think it was the "change" movement, I think it was about every TV station but Fox. Oh, and every other country in the world. Oh and the people that had their home values drop by 20%. Oh and those folks who had their 401k drop by 20-30%...
Now we all believe it and that's why things are so much better now than 20 months ago.
Oh, "we" definitely don't, we have to wait for 1/20/09 for that, and even then its only if 11/4/08 goes right.
I just wonder if there will be enough audacity of hope to turn this entire country around and pull us out of the current slide with the words 'I was kidding, we are really OK .
Thats what the creepy old guy and the chick from Alaska are hoping, and I don't think it will work so well for them (or us).
It wasn't always like this, I remember way back about 10 years ago when the budget was balanced, there was no national debt, other countries liked us, loans were easy to get, it took me 30 days to get a great starter job out of college, etc. I am ready for another 8 years of economic prosperity and foreign policy that brings back luster to the US.
Relax, we're good now. Here, have a Toyota.
To their credit, the design and manufacture several cars in the US, which challenges some of the domestics. That said, the vehicles are so dumbed down for the NA driver that I find them off putting.
If you really believe the budget was balanced, you're being easily mislead. The deficit went up. The publicized numbers were from "creative" bookkeeping much the same as creative bookkeeping has worked for the Fannie and Freddy and other financial companies. There were items of spending taken off the budget so that they didn't add on; but we still spent the money. National Debt
Oh and Clinton and Rubin were where the push to "give" everyone a mortgage and homeownership started. That was aided by people like Dodd and Frank pushing for popularism.
I have been waiting to buy a third car and am thinking used. But prices have risen on what I'm looking at since 1 year ago because of gouging by the dealers due to the popularity of 4-cyl economical models. I am thinking a couple more months of this economy dropping from mortgage fiasco and I'll be able to buy something because nothing will be selling. People are going to panic and close their wallets with Thanksgiving and Christmas coming up. Things will slow down. I am looking for American brand small cars.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I think one reason people might trade these cars often is because they just like to always have something new, or they just get bored with their current ride rather quickly. And since the cars hold their resale value so well, after 2-3 years they might actually have enough equity in the car to be able to trade it in on a new one, with little financial pain. The downside of this is that they're essentially making payments for the rest of their lives.
However, if they're going to trade often, it's still cheaper to do it with a Honda or Toyota, or to a lesser degree a Nissan, than it is with a GM, Ford, or Chrysler product. For instance, just imagine how deep in the hole I'd be right now if, say, I traded my 2000 Intrepid for a 2003, and then for a 2006 Charger, and was now on the hunt for a 2009? :surprise:
They haven't had a viable performance vehicle since the mid-90s.
Honda is more like the MoPar kids or the Ford people which liked there Stangs or hotrods. The more attitude company
Yeah, I totally believed this until I got my '07 Accord, which is a rolling retirement home. The handling is uninspiring, the ride quality is average, and its main redeeming quality is fuel economy. It sounds a lot like Toyota to me.
They are selling the GT and current V6 at good prices, but so low it has to hurt. They need to sell above $25K and $20K to make it. At $8k off V8 and $5K off V6, it ain't looking pretty. Sure the buyer likes the low price, but the dealerships are closing.
They want the '08s gone so they can get the '10s, same with the F150. Dealerships are closing because there are too many dealerships.
Can you pull out where it said that, I just saw where it said it went up by 500 billion every year since 2003 with the village idiot running things.
Oh and Clinton and Rubin were where the push to "give" everyone a mortgage and homeownership started. That was aided by people like Dodd and Frank pushing for popularism.
Right, when Fannie May and Freddie Mac were paying out HUGE dividends to share holders and having record profits, when the economy was growing and there were more jobs being created, when inflation was under control and interest rates were stable, Billy suggested Freddie Mac and Fannie May might want to consider lending to people who might actually need to borrow money. Aww shucks.
Then our latest economic champion decided to make the loans even more liberal and not worry about pesky things like how they qualify, even though the economy had stopped growing, job growth was at a standstill, etc.
Now, I can't afford to buy a new car even if I wanted to and I can't move because I can't afford to sell my house. The lack of new jobs means if anything else happens in this region, I just mail my keys to the mortgage company and walk away (I would normally drive, but with 3.75 for gas in a de-regulated industry and the amount still owed on the cars, walking might be my best bet).
Resale value of domestic small and mid-sized sedans has risen dramatically in the last 2-3 years, and the incentives for new ones have been decreasing. At the same time, the '07 Accord was 4000 off of msrp.
Uh, a big part of the reason that we are in trouble now was because loans were so easy to get back then. So I wouldn't be holding that one up as a good thing.
Incidentally, credit is still available for people with good credit ratings and reliable income, which is as it should be, so I'm not seeing the problem here. The return to sane lending standards hardly constitutes a "crisis" or a "problem." It's more like a "solution."
We had a smaller deficit because all of those capital gains from stock options exercised during the tech boom were filling both the U.S. Treasury and state treasuries. The tech boom was over by early 2000 - check who was president then.
And anyone who thinks that other countries really liked us prior to the Bush president is kidding himself. They tolerated us...and many of their compliments were really quite barbed. What really happened is that since 9/11, they've had to face a growing threat within their own borders (check out those recent "youth" riots in France, or the murder of Theo Van Gogh in the Netherlands by a Muslim extremist - are we going to blame them on George W. Bush, too?). Anti-Americanism is a nice distraction for them.
They've also had a relationship with a corrupt dictator - Saddam Hussein - exposed and ended. I would be surprised if they still liked us after all of that happened, too.
And where is the superior domestic competitor to the Accord? The OLD Accord bested the domestic competition in every way - it was one of the gold standards in its class - and the new one appears to be continuing that tradition.
The Accord still bests the domestic competition in handling, refinement and reliability.
And no domestic company offers anything like the Accord V-6 six-speed coupe. I like the new Malibu and Fusion, but the bottom line is that they don't have anything like the Accord's image, they aren't nearly as appealing to younger people, and they still rely on fleet sales for a fair amount of their total sales.
You're entitled to your opinion, but people voting with their dollars, and reviewers from a variety of sources, say otherwise.
The seeds of a company's fall are usually planted during good times. Just because Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were paying out dividends a few years ago doesn't meant that there weren't problems brewing. Studebaker paid out dividends in the early 1950s, when it should have been investing that money in new plants and equipment. The company was almost bankrupt by early 1954. The company's problems didn't start on January 1, 1954.
The standard for whether people should be lent money is whether they can reasonably be expected to pay it back, not whether they need it. I could certainly use $500,000 right now. No prudent bank or credit union would lend me this money, as I certainly can't pay it back within a reasonable time frame.
lilengineerboy: Then our latest economic champion decided to make the loans even more liberal and not worry about pesky things like how they qualify, even though the economy had stopped growing, job growth was at a standstill, etc.
This problem started LONG before George W. Bush became president, although I agree he has made a bad situation worse. The move to use the Community Reinvestment Act as a way to pressure banks and other lending institutions to relax loan guidelines that were deemed "unfair" and "racist" began in the 1990s. Again, check who was president during that time...
lilengineerboy: Resale value of domestic small and mid-sized sedans has risen dramatically in the last 2-3 years, and the incentives for new ones have been decreasing. At the same time, the '07 Accord was 4000 off of msrp.
Yet I still see that, according to Edmunds.com, the domestics still rely on incentives more than Toyota and Honda. And they still rely on fleet sales more, despite constant promises to reduce this way of artificially inflating sales.
Meanwhile, I just priced out a brand-new Civic sedan on Edmunds.com. The True Market Value is....the sticker price. I guess Honda doesn't need many incentives to move those cars.
The French loved us then and they still love America. Maybe not the so called elite, but American movies, food and other US cultural aspects are huge there.
Lance is going to stomp them again however.
This Forbes commentator thinks the best way to create jobs here is to push foreign automakers to build more cars in the US. Welfare Kings In Cadillacs
As for the Honda Accord, it too is pretty good. Of course a heavier car is not gonna dance like a Miata on the curves, but nonetheless in the weight class it has good moves - nicely weighted steering. Perhaps the lower profile tires make a bit of a difference here -- you have a base model? I will say the Michelin tires wear well, but squeal with ease, so perhaps a more sticky, softer rubber tire tread would help a Honda stick more. I see little tire wear at 20K miles. Is an Accord perfect - no not really. Powerful engine, which makes nice sounds at full throttle and good handling, I think are Honda's best traits. Interior is better than domestics. The belt line / door sill height is a bit lower, thank goodness, on the '07. ALL car seem to be going with some yesteryears slab sided, too tall door - too small window, look nowadays.
So Ford is going to skip '09 cars? I swear I drove an '09 Stang. :-)
The 2009 Mustang and Fusion will have abbreviated model years, from what I've read. The revamped 2010 models are supposed to debut early next year. Judging by the spy photos, they both look good. If Ford can refine the Fusion and upgrade its drivetrains, it should have a strong contender in this segment.
It's kinda wild to think that theoretically, 2010 model year cars could start popping up as early as January 1, 2009! I, for one, would like to see the 4-cyl version of the Fusion get an upgrade in power and economy.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,