Perhaps Ford should have taken the Fusion/Milan RWD? I know - I know, too expensive to go the extra mile there. The new Mazda6 is pretty good looking. The Milan, IMHO, is still one of the better shapes, even with the big butt syndrome of today's auto. Anyone seen an article with a comparison between Fusion/Milan and Malibu/Epsilon Gang? From the earlier photos of the interior on the Malibu, I thought it was gonna be something really special - very cool. In reality, it is pleasing enough, but nothing so great as to make the car a winner over car XXX. The back end of the New Malibu looks similar to the old Verona Suzuki, and thus uninspiring. I would rate the New Malibu as a good effort to be in the same league as the rest. Too bad it did not have an original look. The Ford Fusion/Milan is a better effort in this respect.
Would be fun to be in the style wars between domestic and the rest, but alas a more blended look seems to be accepted. We are living in the age of mediocrity. Just look at the big four TV programming efforts. Do you see any shows like the Ed Sullivan hour which had the best of the best talent? No Dean Martin Show. And look at local to national choices when we vote. And the products of crap from China, oh my! Recall a time when a lamp switch worked for a couple decades instead of a couple months? I go back enough years to recall as a kid the days when an American car was a work of art. Those be the 60's. People laughed at this funny VW bug thing. Now the big three laugh no more. Those ugly little cars, like a VW or an egg shaped little Subaru, were easily dismissed by GM and Ford. Ford & GM imitation cars date way back. The Corvair, second gen. would be kinda a neat car, if it had survived. Well maybe???
Well yes and no. I looked under the hood of my Honda and it has parts labels of say Honda USA, but those companies are owned by Honda, Japan, no doubt. Lots of components are built here, while some may be made in Japan and assembled here. It provides jobs. Still seems to be a lot of production going on here in the States. Even a BMW may be built in US of A. Of course a Mazda MX-5 is only built abroad.
Gotta chime in OT...seeing as how Europe was "liberated" by Americans from one bad ideal to another...there's every reason to expect anti-Americanism there, especially among the young. The cultural disaster being seen is a postwar creation. Generally the older people don't hate Americans so much, in my experience...but the youth are jaded and skeptical at best, as they should be.
All your responses are poor. You admit the media runs down the country. By the way, the media is 98% for the out of office party!!!!!
Houses down by 20%? Miami is still double of the 1-1-01 values. House values are way up from 2001 levels, everywhere. Cars are better made and more affordable compared to then. I know someone who paid $22,200 for a new 1998 Civic with hand crank windows.
Are you saying America has a high confidence in itself now? Where is that info coming from?
10 years ago? You mean just before the tech bubble burst that turned taxpayers into loss claimers when they filed? It suprised you that tax receipts went down after that? The US Embassy, the Cole, the first WTC attempt and the planning of 911 happened on whose watch? The world liked us then? We woke up and realized we needed a military on 1-1-01. It wasn't going to be free. Any surplus we had was derived by not keeping up the military and taxing the tech bubble, two things that had to end.
fintail: Gotta chime in OT...seeing as how Europe was "liberated" by Americans from one bad ideal to another...
The postwar Europe is so far superior to prewar Europe that there is no comparsion. To say that Europe went from one bad ideal to another is not true.
fintail: there's every reason to expect anti-Americanism there, especially among the young. The cultural disaster being seen is a postwar creation.?
What they hate is that, after World War II, the European powers had basically either destroyed (Germany) or exhausted (France and Great Britain) themselves, and America was now the dominant world power. It was also the dominant cultural power (which, from a European standpoint, was probably even worse).
One can understand some resentment in the wake of World War II. When an entire continent is basically destroyed and virtually broke, and largely from its own doing, blaming outsiders is expected. But such feelings are, in the long run, hardly productive.
fintail: Generally the older people don't hate Americans so much, in my experience...but the youth are jaded and skeptical at best, as they should be.
Being jaded and skeptical generally comes from having too many things handed to a person. The jaded and skeptical tend to think that the current standard of living is a birthright (so they can pretend not to care about it), and it it goes away, it can somehow be legislated back into existence, without too much effort on the part of anyone.
Which, right now, describes far too many young Europeans and Americans.
Now if we only make our trade laws the same as in Japan and Korea. Japan charges 7-10% on all vehicles imported from anywhere else. Here is where the Japanese govenment makes there money. Every vehicle is individually inspected, tested for emissions and kept for an overall evaluation. The price of this to the Japanese buyer you ask? About $2500 - 3500 per vehicle. On a highline Cadilac or Mercedes Benz, it is even more.
The US currently charges a 2.5% tariff on all (non-NAFTA) imported cars and a 25% tarif on all (non-NAFTA) imported light trucks.
And where is the superior domestic competitor to the Accord? The OLD Accord bested the domestic competition in every way - it was one of the gold standards in its class - and the new one appears to be continuing that tradition.
I don't know, the dash on my '07 is 3 or 4 different colors, the panels are mismatched, you can see the mold release lines across the top of the IP over the radio. I would say it is average in fit and finish.
If you are comparing an '03 Accord to an '03 Taurus, I am right there with you, but I think with the Fusion the gap shrank alot.
The Accord still bests the domestic competition in handling, refinement and reliability.
Eh reliability is arguable. Even handling, where the 3 year old Fusion was within 4 tenths of a second of the brand new just introduced boat from Honda, or where it beat it in skidpad lateral grip implies that its not the case.
And no domestic company offers anything like the Accord V-6 six-speed coupe.
Hmmm an oversized "personal luxury coupe" makes me think T-bird and Monte Carlo, but if people like 'em, its fine with me.
they still rely on fleet sales for a fair amount of their total sales.
Don't confuse "fleet sales" with "rental car fleets." Businesses buy them because they are inexpensive to buy and maintain, and they are reliable to support the needs of a business.
"Yeah, I totally believed this until I got my '07 Accord, which is a rolling retirement home. The handling is uninspiring, the ride quality is average, and its main redeeming quality is fuel economy. It sounds a lot like Toyota to me. "
It amazes me how people complain about the dynamics of an automobile after they have purchased it - did you even bother to test drive the car? If so, then why did you buy it? Oh, and let me guess, you have the LX model with a slushbox and the hard as nails OEM Michelin tires that are good for only one thing - fuel economy.
As for me, I thoroughly enjoy my 5-speed '03 Accord EX-L. It doesn't handle like my previous BMW, but then again, no other car that I have driven handles like a BMW. But it's not bad, and the 4 banger with a stick really give it some zip and make it more fun to drive. My parents Camry can't compare. And I get great gas mileage too.
Not true! The Celica was around 2,500# and handled as good as sports car. I would not place it in terms of being something like a BMW Z4, but for the price range and being FWD, the car had awesome handling. Drive one!
Its price range was what got it in trouble. Every hot hatch would spank it, and then it couldn't compete with the 10k less expensive Scion tC, which by every account I have read, is no sport anything.
The Prelude didn't fair much better and apparently got morphed into a Monte Carlo, I mean Honda Accord Coupe.
At least the Civic SI is a legitimate entry, with a 6 spd and limited slip differential like the Nissan Sentra SER.
Perhaps Ford should have taken the Fusion/Milan RWD? I know - I know, too expensive to go the extra mile there.
Yes because people in places other than the central coast love to drive RWD vehicles in this white stuff that falls from the sky, much like rain, in the months between November and March or so. Every rear drive platform that has come out in the last 4 years has an AWD version because people don't like RWD in snow. It wasn't that it was too expensive, its just that its a bad idea.
There is nothing that inspires me and many others as well. I might as well buy an Asian brand because nothing the US makes comes close. The Malibu is the only sedan under $30K that competes. Other than that, boring cars.
The best part of that is come November, my responses, views and opinons are worth exactly the same as yours.
You admit the media runs down the country.
News reports News. They don't "run down" things, they say what happened. Fox, which isn't news, is more of a reality show following the President.
Houses down by 20%? Miami is still double of the 1-1-01 values
I am glad you are continuing to enjoy the bubble...what is the forclosure rate down there? On my map it doesn't look so good.
I know someone who paid $22,200 for a new 1998 Civic with hand crank windows.
I wouldn't admit that to too many people, or I would get them credit counseling.
We woke up and realized we needed a military on 1-1-01.
No, we didn't. If we had, the US citizens would've bought war bonds and supported their military just like every other war we needed to be involved in, instead of selling the country to China to pay for it.
It amazes me how people complain about the dynamics of an automobile after they have purchased it - did you even bother to test drive the car? If so, then why did you buy it? Oh, and let me guess, you have the LX model with a slushbox and the hard as nails OEM Michelin tires that are good for only one thing - fuel economy.
Actually, it is an EX 4 door 5-speed manual with Bridgestones, and because I got $4000 off, I thought the deal would compensate for its lack of driving dynamics.
My '93 Accord EX 4 door 5-speed manual was much more fun to drive.
Was it a mistake? Definitely. Do I have buyers remorse? Certainly.
"To say that Europe went from one bad ideal to another is not true."
Yeah, the great ideal of a forced submission to globalization, stigmatizing or even banning national and/or cultural pride and identity, an EU with an appetite for power wildly exceeding the original claimed intentions, ridiculous forced shame and guilt that enables low birthrates and unsustainable immigration levels - things are just awesome! Road to destruction before 1945, road to destruction after 1945 - no progress.
" But such feelings are, in the long run, hardly productive."
Neither is a submission to said powers, as today and tomorrow will prove for Europe...when the next war comes there.
"Being jaded and skeptical generally comes from having too many things handed to a person"
I don't know...the inheritance elite I see in society are generally pretty content and upbeat. But those seeing the true dumbed down dim future of the western world in light of globalization do not lack the right to be cynical. I'd also hardly pin it on "young" people, as the apple seldom falls far from the tree, and it is not the young who have created the irresponsible policies.
lilengineerboy: I don't know, the dash on my '07 is 3 or 4 different colors, the panels are mismatched, you can see the mold release lines across the top of the IP over the radio. I would say it is average in fit and finish.
If you are comparing an '03 Accord to an '03 Taurus, I am right there with you, but I think with the Fusion the gap shrank alot.
The Fusion and the Malibu are the best of the new domestics, and they still lag the Accord in interior fit-and-finish, including the dasbhoards. And my original post dealt with more than dashboard - or even interior - fit-and-finish. It dealt with the entire car, and, taken as a whole the Accord is still one of the gold standards for its class.
lilengineerboy: Eh reliability is arguable.
It's measurable, and according reliable sources like Consumer Reports and truedelta.com, the Accord still beats the Fusion and Malibu for reliability.
lilengineerboy: Even handling, where the 3 year old Fusion was within 4 tenths of a second of the brand new just introduced boat from Honda, or where it beat it in skidpad lateral grip implies that its not the case.
The Fusion has a very nice chassis and suspension tuning, but I've not seen an indication that, overall, it's better than the Accord in this area. And please note that the automotive history is littered with vehicles that were great on the skidpad and so-so in the real world (although, in all fairness, I wouldn't put the Fusion in the category).
lilengineerboy: Hmmm an oversized "personal luxury coupe" makes me think T-bird and Monte Carlo, but if people like 'em, its fine with me.
No Monte Carlo built in the 1990s or since the turn of this century could ever match the Accord coupe for refinement, performance and reliability. And, unlike the Monte Carlo, the Accord coupe BOOSTS the parent company's reputation.
The Thunderbird? The Turbo Coupes and Super Coupes of the 1980s and 1990s were nice cars with very handsome styling. But they were aimed at a more upscale market segment than the Accord coupe.
lilengineerboy: Don't confuse "fleet sales" with "rental car fleets." Businesses buy them because they are inexpensive to buy and maintain, and they are reliable to support the needs of a business.
For the first half of the 2008 model year, the Fusion sold a total of 32.1 percent of its production to fleet customers. Of the 24,379 vehicles that went to fleets, 13,335 - or slightly more than half - went to rental car companies.
In the Chevy camp, a total of 33 percent of Malibu production went to fleet customers. Of the 21,974 vehicles that went to fleet customers, 17,187, or well over half, went to rental car companies.
Of total Accord production, a whopping 2.5 percent went to fleet customers.
Yes, corporate customers and governments buying fleet vehicles will look at the factors you cited, although many of them - especially governments - are operating under "buy American" edicts. And that doesn't include transplant vehicles, so the playing field isn't entirely level.
But rental car companies are looking for the deal, and nothing more. A few sales to rental car companies aren't a bad thing (it gets the product before potential customers), but done on a large scale, it's nothing more than a way to dump vehicles that retail customers don't want.
lilengineerboy: Actually, it is an EX 4 door 5-speed manual with Bridgestones, and because I got $4000 off, I thought the deal would compensate for its lack of driving dynamics.
So now I understand where you got the idea that Accords are heavily discounted. Virtually ANY mid-sized car with a manual transmission will be heavily discounted (that is why GM, for example, doesn't even offer them).
Most people shopping in this segment don't want a manual transmission. The fact that you got a $4,000 discount on a manual-equipped Accord is hardly a proof that Honda needs to offer whopping incentives to move all Accords.
fintail: Yeah, the great ideal of a forced submission to globalization, stigmatizing or even banning national and/or cultural pride and identity, an EU with an appetite for power wildly exceeding the original claimed intentions, ridiculous forced shame and guilt that enables low birthrates and unsustainable immigration levels - things are just awesome! Road to destruction before 1945, road to destruction after 1945 - no progress.
Globalization started in Europe, so I don't know how it was forced to "submit" to something it basically invented. The United States is basically an offshoot of Europe.
And low birth rates are the result of rising standards of living. In agricultural societies, children are an asset. They can almost immediately be put to work to help feed the family.
In advanced industrial societies, children are a burden until the age of at least 18. They must be fed, clothed and educated while making little or no contribution to the family income. Also, as people get wealthier, they consider marrying later and not even marrying at all.
Europe was the first region to transition from an agrarian society to an industrial one, so it stands to reason that it's birth rate would drop faster and farther than anywhere else on earth. That has to with the natural outcome of industrialization, not U.S. policy.
As for immigration - that is driven by, one, the refusal of many Europeans to do what they consider to be "menial" labor, and two, open borders to countries that were once part of their colonial empires. The U.S. had nothing to do with those two factors.
fintail: I don't know...the inheritance elite I see in society are generally pretty content and upbeat."
The truly wealthy in the U.S. have, by and large, earned it. The "inheritance elite" in the U.S. have been diminishing since the early 1980s. Look at the Kennedys, for example - the latest generation really isn't all that wealthy anymore, and they really aren't all that influential. The two exceptions - Maria Shriver and Caroline Kennedy Schlossburg - are super-wealthy because the first married an ambitious immigrant, and the second had a mother who remarried for money, made sure that she got a big chunk of it when the rich Greek husband died, invested it wisely, and passed it on to her daughter when she died. And when her brother and his wife died without children, she probably got a share of that estate, too. So only one is really part of the "inheritance elite."
It's measurable, and according reliable sources like Consumer Reports and truedelta.com, the Accord still beats the Fusion and Malibu for reliability.
I haven't seen a statistically significant difference. If statistical significance for you is a single vehicle, thats fine.
No Monte Carlo built in the 1990s or since the turn of this century could ever match the Accord coupe for refinement, performance and reliability. And, unlike the Monte Carlo, the Accord coupe BOOSTS the parent company's reputation.
Fair enough, I just think a heavy vehicle with difficult ingress/egress is a silly thing. I still remember climbing in and out of my grandpa's Grand Prix and Ventura and thinking that had to be the dumbest thing ever.
For the first half of the 2008 model year, the Fusion sold a total of 32.1 percent of its production to fleet customers. Of the 24,379 vehicles that went to fleets, 13,335 - or slightly more than half - went to rental car companies.
Actually I am kind of curious where you got those stats, since Ford doesn't differentiate fleet customers in any given report.
lilengineerboy: Actually, it is an EX 4 door 5-speed manual with Bridgestones, and because I got $4000 off, I thought the deal would compensate for its lack of driving dynamics.
So now I understand where you got the idea that Accords are heavily discounted. Virtually ANY mid-sized car with a manual transmission will be heavily discounted (that is why GM, for example, doesn't even offer them).
Most people shopping in this segment don't want a manual transmission. The fact that you got a $4,000 discount on a manual-equipped Accord is hardly a proof that Honda needs to offer whopping incentives to move all Accords.
Actually, they were all the same price. They had a whole row of 2007 4 cyl Honda Accord EX 4 drs, a bunch of autos and 2 sticks, all the same discount.
Actually if you like the Malibu, there are several other Epsilon cars which you may also like. The SAAB and Aura XR come to mind. Just going on looks, the Altima Coupe, is pretty good styling. Ooops, not American.
lilengineerboy: Actually I am kind of curious where you got those stats, since Ford doesn't differentiate fleet customers in any given report.
They come from fleetcentral.com. The statistics are the subject of threads on several automotive sites that must remain nameless, as per this site's policy.
Fleetcentral.com features a chart listing a model's total sales, its total fleet sales, and how many fleet sales were to government and corporate customers, and how many went to rental car companies.
It's worth noting that while Ford typically has the highest fleet sales as a percentage of total sales, its percentage of sales to rental car companies is the lowest among the domestics.
fintail: Of course, the US has done no wrong to Europe. Whatever could I be thinking.
Given that globalization started in Europe, and Europe through its colonization of other regions was practicing globalization before World War I, let alone World War II, the idea that Europe is victim of globalization forced on it by the U.S. is quite a stretch. Read accounts of Great Britain in the 1800s early 1900s - influences from India (when it was a British colony) were already filtering back to Great Britain during that time. Was that America's fault...?
fintail: Birthrates dropped off the face of the planet after Europe was rebuilt in an American ideal simply as a matter of coincidence. That must be it.
Birth rates in Europe had been dropping before World War II. Please note that American birth rates remain much higher than European birth rates, so the "American model" must not include low birth rates.
Unless this is some sort of diabolical, neocon plot to wipe out Europeans by encouraging them to enact policies that discourage job growth and live in city apartments as oppposed to suburban developments, both of which have helped depress birth rates. Only problem is that Europeans have adopted those policies on their own...
fintail: And the desire of leadership to submit to an immigration invasion certainly has nothing to do with being made to feel guilty about the past.
The only country that has any reason to feel guilty about its recent past is Germany, and Germany allowed immigrants in to do menial labor as much as anything else. Same for France and Great Britain. The U.S. does not control European immigration policy. The home countries do and, in the case of Great Britain and France, it was one way to maintain ties with their former colonies.
fintail: It takes money to make money.
No, it takes gumption and smarts to truly make money. It takes money to buy nice things, but if you aren't making new money to replace what you spend, you will soon end up as one of the "genteel poor." And if you don't use inherited money wisely, you'll end up in the same place. Studies have been conducted that compared people from the same family who were basically handed money or other forms of assistance, and those who weren't. Those who were not given assistance the ones who were more likely to come out ahead...
I see this up close. Two of my wife's close relatives have been given considerable financial assistance by their parents. We have received virtually nothing from our parents (aside from assistance with college and some help with wedding costs). But I'm willing to bet that, if our assets were totalled, we'd have more net worth.
fintail: Those types aren't people I see in my daily life, but I do see many born into well-to-do situations that are anything but cynical, because they have little to worry about when it comes to a roof or an income.
And many of the families of the children my wife teaches have the same attitude, and they basically live on public assistance or low-paying jobs (which makes them eligible for several welfare programs). Are they part of the inheritance elite, too?
With a higher birth rate, the American car market will grow larger than the European car market, unless globalization forces us to only consider French cars designed by people who believe that Jerry Lewis was a comedic genius, thereby discouraging people from driving, which in turn will diminish interest in cars, leading to the demise of sites such as this.
Birthrates have nothing to do with it...lack of good cars do. Cars people WANT!
Currently, American cars don't cut it. Trucks, OK, you would have a point. But cars, second rate at best.
Period. The End. AMEN.
Now, add the virtually stopped credit market, and the nails are in the coffin.
"The perfect storm has been brewing for a while. It has crystallized and it just continues to intensify," Barker said. "It's a very difficult time to have to restructure your business. This is a climate that is not conducive to restructuring costs."
The end, he said, is uncertain and probably won't come until 2010. CSM has reduced its annual light vehicle sales forecast for this year to 13.9 million vehicles, and the company is predicting a further drop to 13.7 million next year. That's down from 17 million vehicles as recently as 2005.
Here is the full text. I believe only after Chapter 11 will a new business model emerge that will be successful in providing cars that people will want to buy.
Colonization was not globalization as we know it today, the one that works to stunt the western world for greater profit and control.
"The only country that has any reason to feel guilty about its recent past is Germany"
Ridiculous pile of manure. No point in debating further with another part of the public sector not able to face reality.
The US rebuilt Europe in its own pseudo-democratic shadow, and has encouraged trends that cause the problems of today.
"Studies have been conducted that compared people from the same family who were basically handed money "
And I wager such studies can't be named/linked. All anecdotes aside...nothing was said about money surviving for more than a few generations anyway. If you don't have a little behind you to start with, chances are you won't end up with it. And if you do have a little aid, you have a greater chance at relative prosperity. This is simple logic. How many of those with even moderate wealth started out poor (not middle class where mom and dad can finance school, etc)? Really now.
"And many of the families of the children my wife teaches have the same attitude, and they basically live on public assistance or low-paying jobs "
Hold up...you first claimed those who are used to entitlements are cynical, now they are "anything but cynical" as I claimed? You can't have it both ways.
Save yourself my friend !! Your opponent will keep this going until the Sun goes Nova !!! I too have fallen into a trap of trying to make valid points against this person. The end will never happen !!!
With a higher birth rate, the American car market will grow larger than the European car market, unless globalization forces us to only consider French cars designed by people who believe that Jerry Lewis was a comedic genius, thereby discouraging people from driving, which in turn will diminish interest in cars, leading to the demise of sites such as this.
Well, I certainly am gald you cleared THAT up. Where's the darned rolleyes?
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
I see a country that has a lot going for it. Trending from American to foreign made or engineered cars is not an attribute. The media runs this country and shapes the thoughts of enough people to get the polls to show we have no confidence in each other or our system. Today's congress was elected with the aid of the media. What have they accomplished? The news? all we heard was how violence in Iraq was this and that. When the violence went down, there WAS NO NEWS about it. That didn't suit the political agenda of the 98% one sided media. Maybe you can name a few towns where housing has gone down in real dollars since 2001. Towns where GM has closed down several plants and nobody has a good job anymore? The vast majority of this country has grown tremendously financially since 2001. I just think the auto industry is worth saving. With regard to the military. Freedom isn't free. $100 Billion a year for military procurement was cut to $90 Billion when Clinton became president. I got laid off and had to live away from my family and 8 month old son for almost a year due to that. Doesn't that 10 Billion seem so petty compared to the cost of the newest Bailout? That $10 billion cut 500 dollars off the defecit per year per family. Today the media tells me not to buy an American car because it will cost 500 dollars a year more in true cost compared to a foreign one. I will not ruin my country's base to save 500 a year, as I did not think it was worth 500 a year to destroy our military back in 1992.
Everyone does, that is why they live here. That is why everyone wants to come here and people risk their lives to do it.
The media runs this country and shapes the thoughts of enough people to get the polls to show we have no confidence in each other or our system.
I think the media is showing that the system is broken. I think its our job to help fix it. Its not the time to give up and go home, its the time to figure out how to fix things and do it.
The news? all we heard was how violence in Iraq was this and that. When the violence went down, there WAS NO NEWS about it.
At the same time, when the military went through and destroyed a 1000 years of cultural artifacts in the region, there was no news about that either. I agree that they over-sensationalize violence but at the same time, there isn't a lot of demand for stories about things that are okay.
Maybe you can name a few towns where housing has gone down in real dollars since 2001.
Michigan, not just automotive towns, Pfizer left Ann Arbor and put things in the pooper there too. Flint is the scenario you were describing though. I know a couple of people that just got great deals on foreclosures in Orlando and Tampa, and the condos on the west coast seem to be bottoming out.
I just think the auto industry is worth saving.
I agree. Every other nation treats their auto industry as a partner in growth and development and in the US its treated like a red-head step child.
With regard to the military. Freedom isn't free. $100 Billion a year for military procurement was cut to $90 Billion when Clinton became president.
So he saved 10 billion dollars with no appreciable change in security? That sounds good so far.
I got laid off and had to live away from my family and 8 month old son for almost a year due to that.
I am sorry for your misfortune, but apparently the feeling today is the world doesn't owe anyone a job, you and I included.
Today the media tells me not to buy an American car because it will cost 500 dollars a year more in true cost compared to a foreign one.
Wow that hasn't been my experience. The domestic vehicles I have owned (designed here/built here) have been the best cars I have owned. I actually hadn't seen that anywhere either.
I will not ruin my country's base to save 500 a year, as I did not think it was worth 500 a year to destroy our military back in 1992.
I didn't realize it had been ruined. All I know is the prior president started a half-a** war and then his kid decided it was a holy war he had to finish while ignoring the real threat.
Maybe if our president wasn't a idiot, we wouldn't need to have so much military spending since everyone wouldn't be pissed at us.
What I don't understand is since it costs so much to make Fords in Europe, why the hell don't we make them here and ship them back? Get some Euros flowing back, might as well take advantage of a worthless dollar somehow.
Wow that hasn't been my experience. The domestic vehicles I have owned (designed here/built here) have been the best cars I have owned. I actually hadn't seen that anywhere either.
You are EXTREMELY lucky! Only recently has quality improved incrementally but not faster than the worlds best. Second at best in desirability and quality. The market continues to speak.
Perhaps soon the entire US model will be forced into severe improvements.
The products currently offered will not exhibit a bright future, IMHO. A glimmer here or there is not enough.
Second at best in desirability and quality. The market continues to speak.
Its based on perception. The Malibu and Fusion are both valid entries in their competitive set as are the Accord and Camry. They appeal to different buyers who are looking for different things from their vehicles. The reliability of recent model Ford vehicles is in with Toyota and Honda in both JD powers and CR. Ford had so much trouble with the dealers complaining about a lack of warranty work they helped them open quick lube places to offset the revenue. It is going to take a while for everyone who had to replace the head gasket on their Windstar or the transmission on their Taurus to trust Ford again. Likewise every X-body owner or worse yet, Vega owner, is going to have a healing process before they trust GM again. And you can ask that bitter kid with the lemon Neon about Chrysler. The market is changing, its a good time overall.
The products currently offered will not exhibit a bright future, IMHO. A glimmer here or there is not enough.
The new Fiesta seems like it will be a great ride, the Saturn Astra is a great ride. The Fusion will have all kinds of drive-trains in 2010 and the Saturn Aura/Chevy Mailbu platform is a valid entry into the class. The Taurus offers a lot of value in the full size car arena. Do they have drawbacks or short-comings? Yes I can think of a few already, but I can also think of a few in their competitors.
It is going to take a while. Some people are never going to buy a domestic car. They are done. Neon dude is in that list. But others, like grad-something dude's parents picked up a Taurus and it hasn't blown up yet. My neighbor got a CTS and seems to like it. It just takes a while.
This is the 1.7 vs 1.4 problems in the first three years per hundred cars difference blown up to amount to something. Something wrong with being a close second? Abandon your own country because of .3 of a problem per hundred cars spread across 3 years as an important difference? I'm sorry but the difference between these two numbers is not being EXTREMELY LUCKY vs not. Needing to own what is percieved to be the best of a type, where all in the type are mid level anyway, gets you to what, the next level? Where does it land your country? Severe improvements? Am I in the right country?
"Abandon your own country because of .3 of a problem per hundred cars"
You're correct that U.S. quality isn't as bad (anymore) as people say. But I apply your standard of abandonment to the U.S. automakers.
I question how they could move their factories to foreign countries just to boost their stock prices, while continuing to wave the flag in our faces.
Seems the only time THEY get patriotic is when they need some cash -- $25 billion, or so. Obviously, Mexico isn't going to "loan" them any money. And the drug cartels that run that country would probably kill the auto execs just for asking.
No sympathy for GM, Ford, or whatever Chrysler is these days. They took full advantage of the poverty and corruption created by our southern neighbor when times were good. Now they want to come crying home to mamma when times are bad.
>The media runs this country and shapes the thoughts of enough people to get the polls to show
Amen. :shades:
>Today the media tells me not to buy an American car because it will cost 500 dollars a year more in true cost compared to a foreign one.
They don't include the typical service patterns and the extra addons at many "in demand" foreign car stores in their basis. The US brand cars come out better in overall cost. But the media and some others slant the attitudes of the public. :sick:
My example of my wife's 2003 "Professional Grade" Denali is one micro example of perception. After 62,000 miles, the repair tag is up to $3,600.
The latest problem was the air-bag sensor decided to fail. This occurred on the same day she took the car to the dealer to check out an Engine Light.
That turned out to be a loose gas cap and we took the car home. After 2 hours, the Air Bag Service light came on and we took the truck back where it was determined the sensor failed. $600 after negotiations to eliminate the tax!
This was not covered by the extended warranty so this one cost me.
My small example makes a difference to me and even my wife does not want to buy ANY US produced vehicle, period. (She liked the Enclave but will NOT have more problems with GM junk). I understand the imports have had their problems also. The point, to me, is when you are loyal but things never change, and then you taste the better products made elsewhere, you'd be nuts not to try the competition. If you are happy with US products, more power to ya.
My BMW is an example of a taste of a premium product which delivers satisfaction in spades. Yea, Caddy's CTS is getting better but it took near disaster to provide a competitive product?? Typical dumb business strategy. I had a Lincoln LS, 2003, which added 300 higher quality parts to the previous generation. While the car was good, this BMW is great.
I plan to buy my daughter an import when she gets her license in 2 years. My wife wants a Toyota or Honda and she NEVER follows the auto industry at all. Go figure.
Funny, my girlfriend loves her LaCrosse so much she wants another Buick. She also doesn't follow the industry nearly as closely as I do.
Heck she talks about her LaCrosse like you do about your Bimmer. I'm on my fifth Cadillac. I would most definitely buy another one in the future. We are still young people and still have a lot of car buying years left. Our first and only choice is GM!
Why are you set on buying your daughter an import? Why prejudice her at an early age? Let her make her own choice. When I got my license, I bought my own car - a 1968 Buick Special Deluxe - an excellent car. I have been a big fan of Buick ever since. My second car was a 1979 Buick Park Avenue - another great car. My first new car was a 1987 Chevrolet Caprice Classic.
I try not to prejudice either of my daughters but do cringe every time my little one say "Dad!! There's another Buggy!" I hated the beetle and still do! The older one switches preferences like changing diapers!!
My first new car was a 1977 Grand Prix. Girlfriend cooked the engine after the water hose blew. My bad for not changing it back then! The new engine my brother put in (same brother who changed out the bad gasket in the '88 FWB).
That car was real nice. I also had a '69 Buick Regal and loved it.
Comments
Would be fun to be in the style wars between domestic and the rest, but alas a more blended look seems to be accepted. We are living in the age of mediocrity. Just look at the big four TV programming efforts. Do you see any shows like the Ed Sullivan hour which had the best of the best talent? No Dean Martin Show. And look at local to national choices when we vote. And the products of crap from China, oh my! Recall a time when a lamp switch worked for a couple decades instead of a couple months? I go back enough years to recall as a kid the days when an American car was a work of art. Those be the 60's. People laughed at this funny VW bug thing. Now the big three laugh no more. Those ugly little cars, like a VW or an egg shaped little Subaru, were easily dismissed by GM and Ford. Ford & GM imitation cars date way back. The Corvair, second gen. would be kinda a neat car, if it had survived. Well maybe???
Well they make an AWD version of the Fusion/Milan, in addition to the FWD. So I guess a dedicated RWD shouldn't be too hard to do.
The French kids are the ones flocking to McDonalds, the US style malls and keeping Hollywood movies #1 at the box office.
Houses down by 20%? Miami is still double of the 1-1-01 values. House values are way up from 2001 levels, everywhere. Cars are better made and more affordable compared to then. I know someone who paid $22,200 for a new 1998 Civic with hand crank windows.
Are you saying America has a high confidence in itself now? Where is that info coming from?
10 years ago? You mean just before the tech bubble burst that turned taxpayers into loss claimers when they filed? It suprised you that tax receipts went down after that? The US Embassy, the Cole, the first WTC attempt and the planning of 911 happened on whose watch? The world liked us then? We woke up and realized we needed a military on 1-1-01. It wasn't going to be free. Any surplus we had was derived by not keeping up the military and taxing the tech bubble, two things that had to end.
The postwar Europe is so far superior to prewar Europe that there is no comparsion. To say that Europe went from one bad ideal to another is not true.
fintail: there's every reason to expect anti-Americanism there, especially among the young. The cultural disaster being seen is a postwar creation.?
What they hate is that, after World War II, the European powers had basically either destroyed (Germany) or exhausted (France and Great Britain) themselves, and America was now the dominant world power. It was also the dominant cultural power (which, from a European standpoint, was probably even worse).
One can understand some resentment in the wake of World War II. When an entire continent is basically destroyed and virtually broke, and largely from its own doing, blaming outsiders is expected. But such feelings are, in the long run, hardly productive.
fintail: Generally the older people don't hate Americans so much, in my experience...but the youth are jaded and skeptical at best, as they should be.
Being jaded and skeptical generally comes from having too many things handed to a person. The jaded and skeptical tend to think that the current standard of living is a birthright (so they can pretend not to care about it), and it it goes away, it can somehow be legislated back into existence, without too much effort on the part of anyone.
Which, right now, describes far too many young Europeans and Americans.
The US currently charges a 2.5% tariff on all (non-NAFTA) imported cars and a 25% tarif on all (non-NAFTA) imported light trucks.
I don't know, the dash on my '07 is 3 or 4 different colors, the panels are mismatched, you can see the mold release lines across the top of the IP over the radio. I would say it is average in fit and finish.
If you are comparing an '03 Accord to an '03 Taurus, I am right there with you, but I think with the Fusion the gap shrank alot.
The Accord still bests the domestic competition in handling, refinement and reliability.
Eh reliability is arguable. Even handling, where the 3 year old Fusion was within 4 tenths of a second of the brand new just introduced boat from Honda, or where it beat it in skidpad lateral grip implies that its not the case.
And no domestic company offers anything like the Accord V-6 six-speed coupe.
Hmmm an oversized "personal luxury coupe" makes me think T-bird and Monte Carlo, but if people like 'em, its fine with me.
they still rely on fleet sales for a fair amount of their total sales.
Don't confuse "fleet sales" with "rental car fleets." Businesses buy them because they are inexpensive to buy and maintain, and they are reliable to support the needs of a business.
It amazes me how people complain about the dynamics of an automobile after they have purchased it - did you even bother to test drive the car? If so, then why did you buy it? Oh, and let me guess, you have the LX model with a slushbox and the hard as nails OEM Michelin tires that are good for only one thing - fuel economy.
As for me, I thoroughly enjoy my 5-speed '03 Accord EX-L. It doesn't handle like my previous BMW, but then again, no other car that I have driven handles like a BMW. But it's not bad, and the 4 banger with a stick really give it some zip and make it more fun to drive. My parents Camry can't compare. And I get great gas mileage too.
Its price range was what got it in trouble. Every hot hatch would spank it, and then it couldn't compete with the 10k less expensive Scion tC, which by every account I have read, is no sport anything.
The Prelude didn't fair much better and apparently got morphed into a Monte Carlo, I mean Honda Accord Coupe.
At least the Civic SI is a legitimate entry, with a 6 spd and limited slip differential like the Nissan Sentra SER.
Yes because people in places other than the central coast love to drive RWD vehicles in this white stuff that falls from the sky, much like rain, in the months between November and March or so. Every rear drive platform that has come out in the last 4 years has an AWD version because people don't like RWD in snow. It wasn't that it was too expensive, its just that its a bad idea.
Also, where are the inspiring US cars? SILENCE.
There is nothing that inspires me and many others as well. I might as well buy an Asian brand because nothing the US makes comes close. The Malibu is the only sedan under $30K that competes. Other than that, boring cars.
Regards,
OW
The best part of that is come November, my responses, views and opinons are worth exactly the same as yours.
You admit the media runs down the country.
News reports News. They don't "run down" things, they say what happened. Fox, which isn't news, is more of a reality show following the President.
Houses down by 20%? Miami is still double of the 1-1-01 values
I am glad you are continuing to enjoy the bubble...what is the forclosure rate down there? On my map it doesn't look so good.
I know someone who paid $22,200 for a new 1998 Civic with hand crank windows.
I wouldn't admit that to too many people, or I would get them credit counseling.
We woke up and realized we needed a military on 1-1-01.
No, we didn't. If we had, the US citizens would've bought war bonds and supported their military just like every other war we needed to be involved in, instead of selling the country to China to pay for it.
Actually, it is an EX 4 door 5-speed manual with Bridgestones, and because I got $4000 off, I thought the deal would compensate for its lack of driving dynamics.
My '93 Accord EX 4 door 5-speed manual was much more fun to drive.
Was it a mistake? Definitely. Do I have buyers remorse? Certainly.
Yeah, the great ideal of a forced submission to globalization, stigmatizing or even banning national and/or cultural pride and identity, an EU with an appetite for power wildly exceeding the original claimed intentions, ridiculous forced shame and guilt that enables low birthrates and unsustainable immigration levels - things are just awesome! Road to destruction before 1945, road to destruction after 1945 - no progress.
" But such feelings are, in the long run, hardly productive."
Neither is a submission to said powers, as today and tomorrow will prove for Europe...when the next war comes there.
"Being jaded and skeptical generally comes from having too many things handed to a person"
I don't know...the inheritance elite I see in society are generally pretty content and upbeat. But those seeing the true dumbed down dim future of the western world in light of globalization do not lack the right to be cynical. I'd also hardly pin it on "young" people, as the apple seldom falls far from the tree, and it is not the young who have created the irresponsible policies.
If you are comparing an '03 Accord to an '03 Taurus, I am right there with you, but I think with the Fusion the gap shrank alot.
The Fusion and the Malibu are the best of the new domestics, and they still lag the Accord in interior fit-and-finish, including the dasbhoards. And my original post dealt with more than dashboard - or even interior - fit-and-finish. It dealt with the entire car, and, taken as a whole the Accord is still one of the gold standards for its class.
lilengineerboy: Eh reliability is arguable.
It's measurable, and according reliable sources like Consumer Reports and truedelta.com, the Accord still beats the Fusion and Malibu for reliability.
lilengineerboy: Even handling, where the 3 year old Fusion was within 4 tenths of a second of the brand new just introduced boat from Honda, or where it beat it in skidpad lateral grip implies that its not the case.
The Fusion has a very nice chassis and suspension tuning, but I've not seen an indication that, overall, it's better than the Accord in this area. And please note that the automotive history is littered with vehicles that were great on the skidpad and so-so in the real world (although, in all fairness, I wouldn't put the Fusion in the category).
lilengineerboy: Hmmm an oversized "personal luxury coupe" makes me think T-bird and Monte Carlo, but if people like 'em, its fine with me.
No Monte Carlo built in the 1990s or since the turn of this century could ever match the Accord coupe for refinement, performance and reliability. And, unlike the Monte Carlo, the Accord coupe BOOSTS the parent company's reputation.
The Thunderbird? The Turbo Coupes and Super Coupes of the 1980s and 1990s were nice cars with very handsome styling. But they were aimed at a more upscale market segment than the Accord coupe.
lilengineerboy: Don't confuse "fleet sales" with "rental car fleets." Businesses buy them because they are inexpensive to buy and maintain, and they are reliable to support the needs of a business.
For the first half of the 2008 model year, the Fusion sold a total of 32.1 percent of its production to fleet customers. Of the 24,379 vehicles that went to fleets, 13,335 - or slightly more than half - went to rental car companies.
In the Chevy camp, a total of 33 percent of Malibu production went to fleet customers. Of the 21,974 vehicles that went to fleet customers, 17,187, or well over half, went to rental car companies.
Of total Accord production, a whopping 2.5 percent went to fleet customers.
Yes, corporate customers and governments buying fleet vehicles will look at the factors you cited, although many of them - especially governments - are operating under "buy American" edicts. And that doesn't include transplant vehicles, so the playing field isn't entirely level.
But rental car companies are looking for the deal, and nothing more. A few sales to rental car companies aren't a bad thing (it gets the product before potential customers), but done on a large scale, it's nothing more than a way to dump vehicles that retail customers don't want.
So now I understand where you got the idea that Accords are heavily discounted. Virtually ANY mid-sized car with a manual transmission will be heavily discounted (that is why GM, for example, doesn't even offer them).
Most people shopping in this segment don't want a manual transmission. The fact that you got a $4,000 discount on a manual-equipped Accord is hardly a proof that Honda needs to offer whopping incentives to move all Accords.
Globalization started in Europe, so I don't know how it was forced to "submit" to something it basically invented. The United States is basically an offshoot of Europe.
And low birth rates are the result of rising standards of living. In agricultural societies, children are an asset. They can almost immediately be put to work to help feed the family.
In advanced industrial societies, children are a burden until the age of at least 18. They must be fed, clothed and educated while making little or no contribution to the family income. Also, as people get wealthier, they consider marrying later and not even marrying at all.
Europe was the first region to transition from an agrarian society to an industrial one, so it stands to reason that it's birth rate would drop faster and farther than anywhere else on earth. That has to with the natural outcome of industrialization, not U.S. policy.
As for immigration - that is driven by, one, the refusal of many Europeans to do what they consider to be "menial" labor, and two, open borders to countries that were once part of their colonial empires. The U.S. had nothing to do with those two factors.
fintail: I don't know...the inheritance elite I see in society are generally pretty content and upbeat."
The truly wealthy in the U.S. have, by and large, earned it. The "inheritance elite" in the U.S. have been diminishing since the early 1980s. Look at the Kennedys, for example - the latest generation really isn't all that wealthy anymore, and they really aren't all that influential. The two exceptions - Maria Shriver and Caroline Kennedy Schlossburg - are super-wealthy because the first married an ambitious immigrant, and the second had a mother who remarried for money, made sure that she got a big chunk of it when the rich Greek husband died, invested it wisely, and passed it on to her daughter when she died. And when her brother and his wife died without children, she probably got a share of that estate, too. So only one is really part of the "inheritance elite."
I haven't seen a statistically significant difference. If statistical significance for you is a single vehicle, thats fine.
No Monte Carlo built in the 1990s or since the turn of this century could ever match the Accord coupe for refinement, performance and reliability. And, unlike the Monte Carlo, the Accord coupe BOOSTS the parent company's reputation.
Fair enough, I just think a heavy vehicle with difficult ingress/egress is a silly thing. I still remember climbing in and out of my grandpa's Grand Prix and Ventura and thinking that had to be the dumbest thing ever.
For the first half of the 2008 model year, the Fusion sold a total of 32.1 percent of its production to fleet customers. Of the 24,379 vehicles that went to fleets, 13,335 - or slightly more than half - went to rental car companies.
Actually I am kind of curious where you got those stats, since Ford doesn't differentiate fleet customers in any given report.
So now I understand where you got the idea that Accords are heavily discounted. Virtually ANY mid-sized car with a manual transmission will be heavily discounted (that is why GM, for example, doesn't even offer them).
Most people shopping in this segment don't want a manual transmission. The fact that you got a $4,000 discount on a manual-equipped Accord is hardly a proof that Honda needs to offer whopping incentives to move all Accords.
Actually, they were all the same price. They had a whole row of 2007 4 cyl Honda Accord EX 4 drs, a bunch of autos and 2 sticks, all the same discount.
They come from fleetcentral.com. The statistics are the subject of threads on several automotive sites that must remain nameless, as per this site's policy.
Fleetcentral.com features a chart listing a model's total sales, its total fleet sales, and how many fleet sales were to government and corporate customers, and how many went to rental car companies.
It's worth noting that while Ford typically has the highest fleet sales as a percentage of total sales, its percentage of sales to rental car companies is the lowest among the domestics.
Given that globalization started in Europe, and Europe through its colonization of other regions was practicing globalization before World War I, let alone World War II, the idea that Europe is victim of globalization forced on it by the U.S. is quite a stretch. Read accounts of Great Britain in the 1800s early 1900s - influences from India (when it was a British colony) were already filtering back to Great Britain during that time. Was that America's fault...?
fintail: Birthrates dropped off the face of the planet after Europe was rebuilt in an American ideal simply as a matter of coincidence. That must be it.
Birth rates in Europe had been dropping before World War II. Please note that American birth rates remain much higher than European birth rates, so the "American model" must not include low birth rates.
Unless this is some sort of diabolical, neocon plot to wipe out Europeans by encouraging them to enact policies that discourage job growth and live in city apartments as oppposed to suburban developments, both of which have helped depress birth rates. Only problem is that Europeans have adopted those policies on their own...
fintail: And the desire of leadership to submit to an immigration invasion certainly has nothing to do with being made to feel guilty about the past.
The only country that has any reason to feel guilty about its recent past is Germany, and Germany allowed immigrants in to do menial labor as much as anything else. Same for France and Great Britain. The U.S. does not control European immigration policy. The home countries do and, in the case of Great Britain and France, it was one way to maintain ties with their former colonies.
fintail: It takes money to make money.
No, it takes gumption and smarts to truly make money. It takes money to buy nice things, but if you aren't making new money to replace what you spend, you will soon end up as one of the "genteel poor." And if you don't use inherited money wisely, you'll end up in the same place. Studies have been conducted that compared people from the same family who were basically handed money or other forms of assistance, and those who weren't. Those who were not given assistance the ones who were more likely to come out ahead...
I see this up close. Two of my wife's close relatives have been given considerable financial assistance by their parents. We have received virtually nothing from our parents (aside from assistance with college and some help with wedding costs). But I'm willing to bet that, if our assets were totalled, we'd have more net worth.
fintail: Those types aren't people I see in my daily life, but I do see many born into well-to-do situations that are anything but cynical, because they have little to worry about when it comes to a roof or an income.
And many of the families of the children my wife teaches have the same attitude, and they basically live on public assistance or low-paying jobs (which makes them eligible for several welfare programs). Are they part of the inheritance elite, too?
Currently, American cars don't cut it. Trucks, OK, you would have a point. But cars, second rate at best.
Period. The End. AMEN.
Now, add the virtually stopped credit market, and the nails are in the coffin.
"The perfect storm has been brewing for a while. It has crystallized and it just continues to intensify," Barker said. "It's a very difficult time to have to restructure your business. This is a climate that is not conducive to restructuring costs."
The end, he said, is uncertain and probably won't come until 2010. CSM has reduced its annual light vehicle sales forecast for this year to 13.9 million vehicles, and the company is predicting a further drop to 13.7 million next year. That's down from 17 million vehicles as recently as 2005.
Here is the full text. I believe only after Chapter 11 will a new business model emerge that will be successful in providing cars that people will want to buy.
link title
Regards,
OW
"The only country that has any reason to feel guilty about its recent past is Germany"
Ridiculous pile of manure. No point in debating further with another part of the public sector not able to face reality.
The US rebuilt Europe in its own pseudo-democratic shadow, and has encouraged trends that cause the problems of today.
"Studies have been conducted that compared people from the same family who were basically handed money "
And I wager such studies can't be named/linked. All anecdotes aside...nothing was said about money surviving for more than a few generations anyway. If you don't have a little behind you to start with, chances are you won't end up with it. And if you do have a little aid, you have a greater chance at relative prosperity. This is simple logic. How many of those with even moderate wealth started out poor (not middle class where mom and dad can finance school, etc)? Really now.
"And many of the families of the children my wife teaches have the same attitude, and they basically live on public assistance or low-paying jobs "
Hold up...you first claimed those who are used to entitlements are cynical, now they are "anything but cynical" as I claimed? You can't have it both ways.
You are both VERY smart.
There. Now your egos are suitably massaged.
Move on to something else. PLEASE..............
Well, I certainly am gald you cleared THAT up. Where's the darned rolleyes?
The news? all we heard was how violence in Iraq was this and that. When the violence went down, there WAS NO NEWS about it. That didn't suit the political agenda of the 98% one sided media.
Maybe you can name a few towns where housing has gone down in real dollars since 2001. Towns where GM has closed down several plants and nobody has a good job anymore? The vast majority of this country has grown tremendously financially since 2001. I just think the auto industry is worth saving.
With regard to the military. Freedom isn't free. $100 Billion a year for military procurement was cut to $90 Billion when Clinton became president. I got laid off and had to live away from my family and 8 month old son for almost a year due to that. Doesn't that 10 Billion seem so petty compared to the cost of the newest Bailout? That $10 billion cut 500 dollars off the defecit per year per family. Today the media tells me not to buy an American car because it will cost 500 dollars a year more in true cost compared to a foreign one. I will not ruin my country's base to save 500 a year, as I did not think it was worth 500 a year to destroy our military back in 1992.
MR2 Spyder
Everyone does, that is why they live here. That is why everyone wants to come here and people risk their lives to do it.
The media runs this country and shapes the thoughts of enough people to get the polls to show we have no confidence in each other or our system.
I think the media is showing that the system is broken. I think its our job to help fix it. Its not the time to give up and go home, its the time to figure out how to fix things and do it.
The news? all we heard was how violence in Iraq was this and that. When the violence went down, there WAS NO NEWS about it.
At the same time, when the military went through and destroyed a 1000 years of cultural artifacts in the region, there was no news about that either. I agree that they over-sensationalize violence but at the same time, there isn't a lot of demand for stories about things that are okay.
Maybe you can name a few towns where housing has gone down in real dollars since 2001.
Michigan, not just automotive towns, Pfizer left Ann Arbor and put things in the pooper there too. Flint is the scenario you were describing though. I know a couple of people that just got great deals on foreclosures in Orlando and Tampa, and the condos on the west coast seem to be bottoming out.
I just think the auto industry is worth saving.
I agree. Every other nation treats their auto industry as a partner in growth and development and in the US its treated like a red-head step child.
With regard to the military. Freedom isn't free. $100 Billion a year for military procurement was cut to $90 Billion when Clinton became president.
So he saved 10 billion dollars with no appreciable change in security? That sounds good so far.
I got laid off and had to live away from my family and 8 month old son for almost a year due to that.
I am sorry for your misfortune, but apparently the feeling today is the world doesn't owe anyone a job, you and I included.
Today the media tells me not to buy an American car because it will cost 500 dollars a year more in true cost compared to a foreign one.
Wow that hasn't been my experience. The domestic vehicles I have owned (designed here/built here) have been the best cars I have owned. I actually hadn't seen that anywhere either.
I will not ruin my country's base to save 500 a year, as I did not think it was worth 500 a year to destroy our military back in 1992.
I didn't realize it had been ruined. All I know is the prior president started a half-a** war and then his kid decided it was a holy war he had to finish while ignoring the real threat.
Maybe if our president wasn't a idiot, we wouldn't need to have so much military spending since everyone wouldn't be pissed at us.
What I don't understand is since it costs so much to make Fords in Europe, why the hell don't we make them here and ship them back? Get some Euros flowing back, might as well take advantage of a worthless dollar somehow.
MR2 Spyder
I stand by my initial comment.
You are EXTREMELY lucky! Only recently has quality improved incrementally but not faster than the worlds best. Second at best in desirability and quality. The market continues to speak.
Perhaps soon the entire US model will be forced into severe improvements.
The products currently offered will not exhibit a bright future, IMHO. A glimmer here or there is not enough.
Regards,
OW
Its based on perception. The Malibu and Fusion are both valid entries in their competitive set as are the Accord and Camry. They appeal to different buyers who are looking for different things from their vehicles. The reliability of recent model Ford vehicles is in with Toyota and Honda in both JD powers and CR. Ford had so much trouble with the dealers complaining about a lack of warranty work they helped them open quick lube places to offset the revenue.
It is going to take a while for everyone who had to replace the head gasket on their Windstar or the transmission on their Taurus to trust Ford again. Likewise every X-body owner or worse yet, Vega owner, is going to have a healing process before they trust GM again. And you can ask that bitter kid with the lemon Neon about Chrysler. The market is changing, its a good time overall.
The products currently offered will not exhibit a bright future, IMHO. A glimmer here or there is not enough.
The new Fiesta seems like it will be a great ride, the Saturn Astra is a great ride. The Fusion will have all kinds of drive-trains in 2010 and the Saturn Aura/Chevy Mailbu platform is a valid entry into the class. The Taurus offers a lot of value in the full size car arena. Do they have drawbacks or short-comings? Yes I can think of a few already, but I can also think of a few in their competitors.
It is going to take a while. Some people are never going to buy a domestic car. They are done. Neon dude is in that list. But others, like grad-something dude's parents picked up a Taurus and it hasn't blown up yet. My neighbor got a CTS and seems to like it. It just takes a while.
Needing to own what is percieved to be the best of a type, where all in the type are mid level anyway, gets you to what, the next level? Where does it land your country?
Severe improvements? Am I in the right country?
You're correct that U.S. quality isn't as bad (anymore) as people say. But I apply your standard of abandonment to the U.S. automakers.
I question how they could move their factories to foreign countries just to boost their stock prices, while continuing to wave the flag in our faces.
Seems the only time THEY get patriotic is when they need some cash -- $25 billion, or so. Obviously, Mexico isn't going to "loan" them any money. And the drug cartels that run that country would probably kill the auto execs just for asking.
No sympathy for GM, Ford, or whatever Chrysler is these days. They took full advantage of the poverty and corruption created by our southern neighbor when times were good. Now they want to come crying home to mamma when times are bad.
I don't think so.
Well. Most of the rags will tell you that American quality is BETTER than the Europeans, and gaining on the Japanese, though not there yet.
But you are right, the European cars are more desirable right now.
Amen. :shades:
>Today the media tells me not to buy an American car because it will cost 500 dollars a year more in true cost compared to a foreign one.
They don't include the typical service patterns and the extra addons at many "in demand" foreign car stores in their basis. The US brand cars come out better in overall cost. But the media and some others slant the attitudes of the public. :sick:
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The latest problem was the air-bag sensor decided to fail. This occurred on the same day she took the car to the dealer to check out an Engine Light.
That turned out to be a loose gas cap and we took the car home. After 2 hours, the Air Bag Service light came on and we took the truck back where it was determined the sensor failed. $600 after negotiations to eliminate the tax!
This was not covered by the extended warranty so this one cost me.
My small example makes a difference to me and even my wife does not want to buy ANY US produced vehicle, period. (She liked the Enclave but will NOT have more problems with GM junk). I understand the imports have had their problems also. The point, to me, is when you are loyal but things never change, and then you taste the better products made elsewhere, you'd be nuts not to try the competition. If you are happy with US products, more power to ya.
My BMW is an example of a taste of a premium product which delivers satisfaction in spades. Yea, Caddy's CTS is getting better but it took near disaster to provide a competitive product?? Typical dumb business strategy. I had a Lincoln LS, 2003, which added 300 higher quality parts to the previous generation. While the car was good, this BMW is great.
I plan to buy my daughter an import when she gets her license in 2 years. My wife wants a Toyota or Honda and she NEVER follows the auto industry at all. Go figure.
Regards,
OW
Heck she talks about her LaCrosse like you do about your Bimmer. I'm on my fifth Cadillac. I would most definitely buy another one in the future. We are still young people and still have a lot of car buying years left. Our first and only choice is GM!
Why are you set on buying your daughter an import? Why prejudice her at an early age? Let her make her own choice. When I got my license, I bought my own car - a 1968 Buick Special Deluxe - an excellent car. I have been a big fan of Buick ever since. My second car was a 1979 Buick Park Avenue - another great car. My first new car was a 1987 Chevrolet Caprice Classic.
What kind of extended warranty did you buy? $3600 in repairs with an extended warranty? Something's got to be missing.
I try not to prejudice either of my daughters but do cringe every time my little one say "Dad!! There's another Buggy!" I hated the beetle and still do! The older one switches preferences like changing diapers!!
My first new car was a 1977 Grand Prix. Girlfriend cooked the engine after the water hose blew. My bad for not changing it back then! The new engine my brother put in (same brother who changed out the bad gasket in the '88 FWB).
That car was real nice. I also had a '69 Buick Regal and loved it.
Regards,
OW