Buying American Cars What Does It Mean?

cooterbfd

"I agree...art and science is a deal breaker for me as well. The Enclave is much more pleasing to look at.

Caddy would need to blend design philosophies of the Buick division. The point is you do not need so many models to compete. "

See therein lies the problem. Caddy is doing quite nicely w/ art & science. I believe they sell more Escalades than Toyota sells Land Cruisers and LX 570's combined. You start fooling with what seems to be working, and you may turn off customers. You would, in essence, have to take the Enclave as is, and slap a crest on it to sell it as a Caddy, even if the waterfall grill is incompatible with art & science.

circlew

The thing is, it makes the Enclave unique against the edgy design...you could probably sell way more as a Caddy if the price stays the same.

Remember, the Escalade is still a Tahoe underneath. The Enclave is the newer concept that represents were folks are going to go in the near term.

The future dealers will need to market the cars differently to the public. The show room needs to accent the cars at the higher end. It cant be just an office with a desk with a truck parked next to it. I believe Caddy is going to blend in the edges going forward. One can always hope!

Regards,
OW

iwant12

Damn, all this talk of the Big 3 going down is bumming me out. I was always a GM guy (my family, too), then I started getting some real lemons. What did I do? I purchased Honda and Toyotas, never had any problems. But now I've gotten a patriotic streak (we're killing our country buying imports and out sourcing, etc . . .)and want to buy domestic again (take one for the team). I like the HHR (made south of the border), Malibu, CTS, Mustang, but with all this doom and gloom talk I'm somewhat hesitant to buy anything domestic. I still have a year on my current lease, so at least this will give me time to see what will happen to the Big 3. Oh, yeah, I should add the '10 Camaro to the list. Like that one too.

Personally, I think GM should cut the fat big time.

circlew

Take the emotion out and buy good products. That's what you've been going. I bought only domestics like you. Until 2006. Then, I turned and will not look back until the smoke clears.

I will buy a Honda next. I will stay far away from the doom and gloom. Had too many problems in the past. So I know it will only get worse.

Regards,
OW

obyone

I will buy a Honda next.

Surely you mean Acura. There's something about those Honda SUVs that don't look right.

iwant12

OW, I don't know you (read alot of your posts and respect your views) but suspect you're somewhat like me: you really, REALLY, want to buy a domestic car but are hand shy due to past lemon purchases.

I will in time give the General or Ford (most likely the general) another chance. Really like the HHR SS, just wish it was made NORTH of the border and had a real console (and the damned A-pillars weren't as fat as they are). Perhaps a Malibu or the Camaro. I tell you, though, one more lemon, and I'll change my mind real quick.

Have a good one.

1stpik

" I've gotten a patriotic streak and want to buy domestic again (take one for the team)."

You already took one, or a few, for the team when you bought some GM lemons. You did your part, but GM did NOT do its part. They kept churning out the same gas-guzzling junk year after year -- no innovation, no plan for the future. They also used our "representatives" in Congress to stifle any legislative demand for improved fuel economy. CAFE standards stagnated for 22 years. And, of course, they showed us all how patriotic THEY are by moving their factories to foreign countries.

In other words, GM (and the other two) engaged in stupid, corrupt, un-american business practices, and now they're finding out that when you screw everyone while times are good, no one cares about you when times turn bad.

Boo hoo.

lemko

...through good times and bad! I still enjoy my hyper-reliable 1988 Buick Park Avenue and 1989 Cadillac Brougham as much as our newer 2005 Buick LaCrosse and 2007 Cadillac DTS Performance. I will buy domestic cars as long as there still are domestic cars!

andre1969

I don't know how much they pay Consumers Reports, but as a past owner, I can tell you that THE JAPANESE MAKE LEMONS ALL DAY LONG. My next cars will only be domestic. I'm not sending a dime to those lying cheating bastards.

While I don't think Japanese cars are the shangri-la that some of the ohmmmm...honda...ohmmmmmm....toyota...ohmmmmm huggers might lead you to believe, I also don't think they're as bad as you're making them out to be.

There's a guy in the office here who says that it's a shame the domestics can't build a car today as good as the 1994 Toyota Camry. His reasoning? His '94 Camry has something like 200,000 miles on it, so naturally they must all be that good, eh? I sort of shut him down the other day when I told him that by that logic, I wish they'd build a car today that's as good as a 1986 Monte Carlo (had one, had 192K miles on it and still running strong when it got t-boned) or a 1979 Newport (had one of those too, ~250K miles on it when the water pump failed, and I didn't feel like putting any money into it and wanted something newer). Well, I'd like to think that the auto industry has progressed beyond a car that was slapped together half-heartedly just as Chrysler was on the verge of death!

Sure, Japanese cars have problems. They're not perfect. And the Toyota 3.0 sludge problem and the Honda 5-speed automatic, when mated to a V-6 engine, are two of the better-known problems.

As for personal experience, I have an uncle with an '03 Corolla and my Mom & stepdad have a '99 Altima. The Altima crapped its transmission around 35,000 miles. At the time I was thinking, what a piece of crap. But the car has over 250,000 on it now, so tranny #2 has held up fine, and I don't think the car has needed anything other than routine maintenance type stuff.

As for my uncle's Corolla, I think it has about 150-160,000 miles on it by now. The catalytic converter started to go bad around 100,000 miles, and the water pump went out back in the summer of '07. Other than that though, it's been mainly just routine maintenance type stuff.

As for me, I'd like to buy another domestic car, as I haven't had one yet that would turn me off to domestics forever. With the exception of my 2000 Intrepid, all of my cars have been used. Sometimes VERY used, so if they turned out to be a piece of junk, I'd blame the previous owner(s) or just old age, rather than the original manufacturer.

9 years ago, when I bought that Intrepid, I wouldn't have even looked at a comparable Japanese car. The main reason though, was that the Accord, Altima, and Camry were too small for my tastes. Plus, the Altima was ugly and the Camry was just dull. I liked the style of the Accord, but it was still too small, and seemed a bit pricey. While none of these cars really competed directly with the Intrepid, at that time, the Japanese just didn't have anything nearly Intrepid-sized, unless you looked to perhaps a Lexus LS or Infiniti Q-ship, and they were way out of its price class. Well, there was the Avalon and Maxima, but again, they were pricier, too.

These days though, the Accord/Altima/Camry are big enough for my needs, and I'd be happy with an Accord or Altima. I don't like the Camry's styling, but I'd have faith in it being a reliable car.

I'd still have faith in something like a Malibu/Aura, Ford Fusion, or even a Chrysler Sebring/Avenger being reliable as well. After all, my Intrepid has gone 142,000 miles and has been pretty good. But it just seems like Ford didn't put much effort into the base-level Fusion, and I don't know what sort of chemicals Chrysler was mixing and then inhaling when they came up with the current Sebring/Avenger. The Malibu/Aura do seem like a good effort for this class of car. My only real beef with them is that they seem a bit tighter inside than an Altima/Accord/Camry.

fezo

I can't argue with someone on domestics that hold up. There's what you get statistically over a large sample and what you get personally in your much smaller sample. Sure the latter is anecdotal evidence but who cares if you're the one that keeps getting the winners? I could write for hours and andre and lemko will still be right for themselves.

If i try next time out to buy a domestic it would really have to be a domestic. I'm not interested in the concept of saving American car companies if they are going to build in Mexico or Korea. This isn't to say that those two countries can't build cars - they just don't employ Americans. I'll take an American built Japanese make over that every time.

Actually next time out I'd think about a year or two old American car. Avoid the biggest depreciation hit and still come out OK with the right selection.

andre1969

Sure the latter is anecdotal evidence but who cares if you're the one that keeps getting the winners? I could write for hours and andre and lemko will still be right for themselves.

Well for the most part, Lemko and I have tended to buy bigger, simpler American cars, and that's what the domestics tend to be good at. And as for something like a '79 Chrysler Newport, even though they were horribly rated, the chassis could essentially be traced back to 1962, the transmission to 1957, and the engine way back to 1955, so it's not like we were dealing with rocket science here. It would break and things would fall off of it, but for the most part you could nurse it along indefinitely!

I'm sure if Lemko and I had a preference for smaller vehicles, I'm sure our memories of how reliable those old cars were wouldn't be quite so happy.

If i try next time out to buy a domestic it would really have to be a domestic. I'm not interested in the concept of saving American car companies if they are going to build in Mexico or Korea. This isn't to say that those two countries can't build cars - they just don't employ Americans. I'll take an American built Japanese make over that every time.

I'm with you there! That's one thing I don't like about the Fusion...it's built in Mexico. I'd rather have an Altima or Accord that's domestic-built, and is made up of primarily domestic content, than something that got slipped across the border with a minimum of US content, and had an American brand badge slapped on it.

lemko

That's what I love about those old domestic sedans - they're beautiful in their simplicity. They're extremely durable, reliable, cheap to buy, cheap and easy to service, cheap and easy to repair, simple to diagnose, etc. Even my somewhat more complex, smaller, lighter FWD 1988 Buick Park Ave doesn't scare me. You can beat the heck out of it and it'll still keep going. I think I'd really have to go out of my way to kill it. Try that with any new foreign or domestic car.

vcheng

However, the lack of air bags, ABS, stability control, frequent tune-ups and 10 mpg on a good day with a tailwind (just kidding) might be slight detractors, especially for routine use.

How about a modern classic: simple four door, RWD, state of the art 3 to 4 liter six cylinder (preferably in-line with plenty of space either side for easy servicing), choice of auto or stick shift, stability control and air bags, and that's it. Double DIN dash opening and standard speaker size openings, no compulsory gadgets, you get the idea.......

nvbanker

fezo - you're doing a better thing for the country these days, buying an American Made Toyota than a Mexican made Ford. As an owner of two Fords and one Toyota, I am not overly biased toward any particular company - but the American worker deserves more help than the companies who have run themselves into the ground with their willing accomplices in the union do. My Thunderbird was made in Michigan - my Mountaineer in Kentucky, but my Lexus was made in Hiroshima...and they're all amazingly good cars, no complaints. I have great sadness for Ford & GM (Chrysler is already dead to me) for how the mighty have fallen, but it's their own fault, and my sympathy goes to the factory worker - not the union or the company anymore.

dieselone

10 mpg on a good day with a tailwind (just kidding) might be slight detractors, especially for routine use.

You'd probably have to go back to the 70's to find something that bad. By the early 80's most cars got decent fuel economy as fuel injection and an overdrive gear became more common. My grandpa bought a '83 Old 88 Brougham with a 307 w/ 4speed and it would get mid to high 20's on the hwy at 60mph back then. Certainly would be a crude drive by today's standards though.

OTOH, my 6000lb Expedition with 300hp gets better fuel economy than the 150hp (or so) '75 Buick Regal that my grandpa gave me as my first car. While it was a big car, it probably didn't weight much more than 4,000lbs, and 16mpg at 60mph was about as good as it would get.

iwant12

You are so very correct on all accounts, 1stpik. The big 3 do not deserve my business. I purchase a new vehicle every two to three years--I'm good for the economy! (My wife, on the other hand, drives the wheels off her cars, God bless her.) Still, I'm torn in which direction I should go. I feel un-American driving my Japanese suv, but the thing is flawless. I'm a busy guy, don't have time to go to the dealer with a pos lemon every couple of weeks or months (I have some good stories). The only time I want to visit the dealer is to buy a new vehicle.

Like another poster said: It's the auto workers who are suffering the most.' It seems it's too late for the big 3 to turn it around. They have sold their souls.

andre1969

By the early 80's most cars got decent fuel economy as fuel injection and an overdrive gear became more common. My grandpa bought a '83 Old 88 Brougham with a 307 w/ 4speed and it would get mid to high 20's on the hwy at 60mph back then. Certainly would be a crude drive by today's standards though.

I was actually looking at a similar car a few weeks ago, although it was an '82 Delta 88, and just a base model. 307, but just a 3-speed auto. Seller wanted $1500 for it. I had an '85 LeSabre with the 307/4-speed, and around town I'd usually get around 14-15, lower 20's on the highway. My grandparents, who had the car before me, could easily get mid/upper 20's out of it though on the highway.

OTOH, my 6000lb Expedition with 300hp gets better fuel economy than the 150hp (or so) '75 Buick Regal that my grandpa gave me as my first car. While it was a big car, it probably didn't weight much more than 4,000lbs, and 16mpg at 60mph was about as good as it would get.

Yeah, 4000 lb sounds about right. I have a '76 Grand LeMans coupe, and I think its base weight is around 3830 lb. By the time you add air conditioning, a few power accessories, etc, I'm sure it's up to around 4000 lb. It has a 350-4bbl, a whopping 165-170 hp. Best I ever got on the highway was 17.5, running maybe 65-70 on average. Around town, more like 10-11, and I've managed to sink it into single digits!

My Mom & stepdad have a 1997 or 1998 Expedition, and I think they've gotten it down to as low as 12-13 mpg around town, maybe 18 on the highway. But when you factor in the bulk of it, and the power, by 1970's standards that kind of fuel economy would have been phenomenal!

lemko

I took my 1989 Cadillac Brougham to and from Carlisle and got around 22 MPG on the turnpike. It has the same 307 V-8 w 4 bbl carb but a 4-speed tranny. My 1988 Buick Park Avenue easily gets 29 MPG highway. Some dude was telling me he got 35 MPG highway with his 1989 Pontiac Bonneville which would essentially have the same drivetrain configuration as my Park Ave. I call shenanigans on that one!

andre1969

Some dude was telling me he got 35 MPG highway with his 1989 Pontiac Bonneville which would essentially have the same drivetrain configuration as my Park Ave. I call shenanigans on that one!

Well, you never know, depending on the circumstances. Out on level ground, no a/c running, staying at a lazy 60-65 mph without sudden acceleration or braking, it just might.

Making the run up to PA for one of our car shows (I think it was the Ford show back in June), I took it easy with the Intrepid, keeping it around 55-60 for the most part, and managed to get about 32.5 mpg. When I came up for Fall Carlisle, I kept it more like 60-65 for the most part, and economy dropped to about 31.5. This last time, going up for the Hershey show, I didn't have the patience to drive that slow, was doing more like 65-70 on average, and when I filled up came in right at 30 mpg.

I didn't use the a/c any of those times...although it was so hot the day of that Ford show I had it cranking on the way home!

dieselone

Some dude was telling me he got 35 MPG highway with his 1989 Pontiac Bonneville which would essentially have the same drivetrain configuration as my Park Ave. I call shenanigans on that one!

Maybe he had a 30mph tail wind.

imidazol97

>35 MPG highway with his 1989 Pontiac Bonneville which would essentially have the same drivetrain configuration as my Park Ave

It might make a difference if they have different final drive ratios. I learned that Touring models of LeSabres had a high ratio to make them feel quicker when I was shopping for my last car. I would think that the PA would have a lower, more economical, ratio than the performance-minded Bonnevilles, but maybe not.

Some forums recommend replacing oxygen sensors after 100K because they can be lazy in reaction affecting mileage.

Type of fuel? Alcohol of 10% can affect mileage. Keeping speed at 55-60 greatly helps mileage. Driving 52 seems ideal with mine--two lane country highway, flat glacial leveled land. It shows up to 38 mpg for gentle driving, 35 is easy, and 33 is typical.

circlew

I am one step ahead of you. GM is dead to me as well as Chrysler.

Ford is actually OK in my book except they have no cars that are appealing anymore. The LS and the older LSC were far better than any GM I've owned for both performance, quality and overall satisfaction. Lincoln died and it's too bad, really. I'll never forget that 1970 Mustang Cobra my friend let me drive with the Windsor 351. What a great performer. I'm sure the new one is OK but not for me anymore.



The GM and C corp. is at the point of no return and good riddance to the old business model.

I pray for all of the workers every night, however.

Hopefully in the future the US Auto industry will rebuild and make the best cars in the world again without the greed this time around. We can only hope.

Regards,
OW

Regards,
OW

andre1969

It might make a difference if they have different final drive ratios. I learned that Touring models of LeSabres had a high ratio to make them feel quicker when I was shopping for my last car. I would think that the PA would have a lower, more economical, ratio than the performance-minded Bonnevilles, but maybe not.

If Pontiac was offering a higher-performance Bonneville by that time, it might have had a quicker ratio, but I think the base models had the same ratio as Lemko's Park Ave...probably around a 2.73:1. I don't think the FWD C and H-bodies went any taller than that, but I could be wrong. Some of the RWD cars went taller than that though, especially if you only got the 3-speed instead of the overdrive automatic. My 1985 Consumer Guide has a test of a Cutlass Supreme coupe with the 307/4-speed auto, and it's mated up to a 2.14:1 axle!

cooterbfd

"Some dude was telling me he got 35 MPG highway with his 1989 Pontiac Bonneville which would essentially have the same drivetrain configuration as my Park Ave. I call shenanigans on that one! "

Don't be so sure. My dad got 34 mpg in the old '88 Park Av. going to Cape Cod. Granted, he wouldn't go over 55 and the car was only 3 years old at the time, but if you baby it, it's possible.

fezo

I kind of figure that the last American maker left standing will probably survive. I would still bet on that being GM but they could surprise me yet and have it be Ford. Doing silly things like this Chrysler merger is a wild card for me. My guess is they want to do what Daimler did which is shake all the money out and then punt.

Speaking earlier of early 80s American cars I saw a Citation yesterday! Is there another car in the last three decades that did more to kill GM's reputation? This was a two door in white. looked its age but was still going.

I am constantly amazed at the mpg numbers one can pull out of old Park Avenues and such. There are times when there's a lot to be said for simpler old technology and buying cars by the pound...

myershift

And that's the rationale that is terrible flawed with the auto buying public in the United States.

Even if domestic automakers assemble cars and pay workers in say, Canada or Mexico, the profits ultimately go back to the home country's companies. Those profits are what help develop new models, more factories and workers in the U.S.
The kind of thinking demonstrated here is one reason why U.S. automakers are flailing so badly.

Just because a Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, Nissan, Volkswagen, Mercedes-Benz, or BMW are put together in the U.S., this does NOT make them an American car and the profits made from those cars do ultimately go back to Japan or Germany; depending on the brand.

If Americans do not care about their own industries, don't care about how the government runs the nation or anything else, then any one of those that claim to be a "patriot" is a full on flaming hypocrite.

m1miata

Well, I guess the Citation, though gone in short order, was a building platform for FWD GM cars to come. So to that end, it had some value. Not that I particularly like any of the FWD cars over the RWD. Early 70's cars by GM were pretty cool still, like the Cutlass. Heck, I would like an old Camaro too!

Sad to see Chrysler cut up and disassembled as a company. Alas, we saw that train wreck a coming down the rail. :-( As I told the salesman, some months back, that, " is that lifetime warranty for the car or the life of the company?"

m1miata

American customers did not leave GM, Ford and Chrysler, as much as, GM, Ford and Chrysler left their customers behind. You can not blame the victim for the crime. Well, I guess you can, but to this juror, it won't work. Every opportunity was given to the Big 3 & the Union Workers, by way of forward momentum, as the Big 3 was basically all cars on the road in the US of A for many year. It was there game to lose.

At this late stage of the game, perhaps an emergency meeting by the Unions, and the workers taking a 1/4 to 1/3 cut in pay, and paying their own health insurance until the company is back on its feet, is in order. And those retired should take a cut in benefits too. The management should then announce similar cuts for executives.

I fear there is no easy solution to GM having too many different brands, and dealerships. They need but Chevy and Caddy, but have no easy way to get there, other than bankruptcy. And that would hurt confidence in owning the cars, thus future customers may shy away. I foresee the US government owning some car company stock, along with bank stocks, within the year. But not Chrysler.
-Loren

fezo

The argument about where the money goes if you buy an American made foreign car has been gone over again and again but I'll take another shot.

My cars were made of at least 65% American parts. Parts made in the USA. Profits from making those parts goo to the suppliers.

A large piece of making these was made in paying the labor - 100% American.

Once you sort it all out and get down to the actual profit in the car it gets paid to the shareholders. Whether you buy a Toyota, Honda, Chevy, Ford or whatever these people are located all over the world. The idea that Japanese buy Japanese stocks while Americans buy American stocks doesn't hold up.

circlew

I hear you. Hopefully everyone will get it eventually. It's about making great products.

Remember T.V.? Admiral, anyone? When you make it better, customers take notice. Period.

You can't set a price and then give your profits away in incentives to grow sales year after year. Not with a flawed cost base. Oh, and disregard market changes.

Reminds me of the British army in the Revolutionary War. Never break formation. OK, easy picken's! Too bad GM did not see their formation being picked off by the Asians.

Look out below!

Regards,
OW

fezo

I remember TV. My folks had a Zenith TV that lasted over 30 years. Dad just replaced it a couple of years ago. Zenith was the last of the made in the USA companies.

andre1969

My grandmother wanted to buy a tv for her bedroom back around 1990 or so, and wanted a Zenith, because she thought they were still American made. Needless to say, she was miffed when she found out it wasn't made in the U.S.! I forget where it came from...Mexico, I think.

Does anybody even make tv's in the United States anymore?

dieselone

Does anybody even make tv's in the United States anymore?

I'd guess not in the last 25 years. It's sad to say, but I was happy that my Sony LCD I bought a few years ago was made in Japan and not China.

sidious6688

Its not consumers' jobs to continue to support companies who produce inferior goods. Indeed, continued support to date is the only reason the "Big three" even continue to exist. Chrysler would have gotten out of business already were it not for past government intervention. Supporting mediocrity encourages such behavior, Sure, the big three have improved their products, sbut o has the competition. All things being equal I'd rather buy American, but at this point an american car manufactuer would have to prove a superior product, not just be on par with the imports. I'll save my money and spend it on other American goods and services worthy of my hard earned dollar.
The big three focused on short term prfotability without considering long term consequences. They overpaid their workers and retirees (which was supportable at one time), did not invest in product development and caught with their pants down when gas went through the roof in the seventies. They've failed to learn from that mistake and repeated it again in the present. No sympathy here.

fintail

I am the same way...these days I am happy enough just to see something from a first world nation. I bought a Canon camera earlier this year, and it is made in Japan...I was happy enough with that.

tlong

Even if domestic automakers assemble cars and pay workers in say, Canada or Mexico, the profits ultimately go back to the home country's companies. Those profits are what help develop new models, more factories and workers in the U.S.

This is commonly stated but I say incorrect. If you assume a profit margin on a car of 10% (it's actually less than that, and zero for recent US automakers), then 90% of the value of the car is spent where the parts are made, the car is assembled, and the advertising dollars are spent. 10% is sent to the country of origin.

So for say, the Honda Accord:

90% of the money stays in the US (minus any foreign components) - workers, factories, parts, advertising, etc.
10% - goes to Japan

For the Ford Fusion:
90% of the money stays in Mexico (minus any components sourced from the US)
10% of the money (if it were profitable at all) would go to the U.S.

So explain again why it's better to buy a Fusion than an Accord?

manegi

Even if domestic automakers assemble cars and pay workers in say, Canada or Mexico, the profits ultimately go back to the home country's companies. Those profits are what help develop new models, more factories and workers in the U.S.

You are assuming that the profits are much larger than the salaries paid out / investments being made. Considering that even very successful auto companies struggle to make 10% net margins, I would say the country which is receiving the salaries and investments is better off (especially when there are no profits to be made at all) - at least in terms of cash-flows.

circlew

When you go global, everyone CAN win minus greed/cheating. The goal are great products. The profits are made if the margins are fair and the business is operated correctly. Everyone wins.

Here is the story of a guy who made money, shared and is now helping people in Detroit. He is a saint on earth. Proves you can use money to help people outside the board room!

GM, Chrysler, Ford...this is for you guys/gals to digest!

Bob Thompson

Regards,
OW

lemko

I still have my 23 year-old Zenith console and it still delivers an excellent picture. I still buy Zenith products though I know they're no longer made here. I guess I just got used to the brand.

Philadelphia was once home to the large appliance and consumer electronics manufacturer Philco. Now the only things manufactured in the neighborhood where Philco was once located is crack rocks and blunts.

lemko

That's the way I feel. If I can't get an American made product, I'll buy one that is at least made in a respectable first-world country.

andre1969

Philadelphia was once home to the large appliance and consumer electronics manufacturer Philco. Now the only things manufactured in the neighborhood where Philco was once located is crack rocks and blunts.

And I'm sure once the Japanese, Koreans, or whomever figures out how to make those commodities cheaper, while still maintaining quality, manufacture of those will be moved overseas as well! :surprise:

hudsonthedog

And that's the rationale that is terrible flawed with the auto buying public in the United States.

Even if domestic automakers assemble cars and pay workers in say, Canada or Mexico, the profits ultimately go back to the home country's companies. Those profits are what help develop new models, more factories and workers in the U.S.
The kind of thinking demonstrated here is one reason why U.S. automakers are flailing so badly.

Just because a Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, Nissan, Volkswagen, Mercedes-Benz, or BMW are put together in the U.S., this does NOT make them an American car and the profits made from those cars do ultimately go back to Japan or Germany; depending on the brand.

I don't see how your thinking is any less flawed.

Labor and parts (and their associated labor costs) are most of the cost of building a vehicle, and when a vehicle has 60-80% domestic content, that means that most of the money stays here...just as it is with Accords and Camrys and many other "foreign brand" vehicles built in the US.

And then there's the "profits" that "are what help develop new models, more factories and workers in the U.S." All of the major foreign manufacturers have engineering and design and R&D facilities in the US...and all of them work on products for the US (as well as for other countries), employing Americans to do that work. And where does the money come from (and more importantly where does it go) to build those NEW plants they keep building? What about all of those people foreign manufacturers employ in such foreign countries as Michigan and California, and Arizona and Indiana and Texas...where their money recirculates throughout the US economy?

Yes, some profits leave the US...but so do monies generated by GM and Ford.

cooterbfd

"All things being equal I'd rather buy American, but at this point an american car manufactuer would have to prove a superior product, not just be on par with the imports."

Then I guess it's NOT "all things being equal" now is it, if your going to demand "better" instead of "equal".

captain2

and few really understand the trickle down effect of that worker's wages in that Honda factory who then pays taxes to pay the scholteachers, who then use their wages to pay the police officers etc etc. Ot that same worker using his disposable wage at Walmart who pays..... and on and on and on
Agree that you do more to help this country and your fellow Americans by spending your money on the Accord especially if the other choice is the Fusion. It is the 'American' manufacturers that are largely abandoning this country while those' foreign' ones put money into it.
Toyota can spend a cool billion building a truck plant in Texas, wonder how much Ford is spending down in Mexico so they can build their trucks, or even worse, how much of that money they really don't have are they spending buying out labor contracts putting even more Americans out of work. :mad:

cooterbfd

Amazing how people love to bash the Big 3, who are downsizing to the equivalent of their market share, yet still employ SEVERAL TIMES more people in this country than than the foreign companies, even though market share is about 50/50.

I also think of the retired auto workers who, with their pensions and health care costs minimal, can "trickle down" far more than someone with just Social Security and a 401k, but have to pay for all their healthcare after medicare. But, that must not count.

sidious6688

I understand your point, but the reason I insist on "better" is my experience with foreign cars (Japanese) is that their reliability is near perfect. What's my incentive to take a risk on an American car when I'm already 100% satisfied? The American car industry has only itself to blame for my bias, which has developed from experience.

tlong

Amazing how people love to bash the Big 3, who are downsizing to the equivalent of their market share, yet still employ SEVERAL TIMES more people in this country than than the foreign companies, even though market share is about 50/50.

That's because the American makers are far less efficient with labor (and THAT is largely due to the union). What company can long endure while not trying to be efficient when its competitors are doing better? Do you really believe that maintaining inefficiencies is the path to prosperity for this country?

imidazol97

>Agree that you do more to help this country and your fellow Americans by spending your money on the Accord

Just what percent of the dollar value of Honda vehicles sold here do they build here?
Same question for Toyota. How much is sold here that actually is imported rather than assembled here.

fezo

Don't know the answer to that (I'll bet someone else here will) but out of four Toyhonda cars in the stable three were made here. Couldn't help it on the Celica. They were all from Japan.

tlong

Just what percent of the dollar value of Honda vehicles sold here do they build here?
Same question for Toyota. How much is sold here that actually is imported rather than assembled here.

Here are some numbers I found on the internet, data from 2008:

Vehicle - Percent N.A. content (or where built outside US)

Impala - Canada
300 - Canada
HHR - Mexico
PT Cruiser - Mexico
Fusion - Mexico
Equinox - 55%
G6 - 85%
Cobalt >75%
Malibu >75%
Edge - 70%

Mustang - 65%
Escape - 65%

Accord - 60%
Odyssey - 75%
CRV - 10%
Civic - 70%

Prius - Japan
Corolla - 50%
Sienna - 85%
Camry >75%

However, some articles say the formula is flawed and favors domestic makes. For example, "If a supplier produces a car battery in the United States that is made of 70 percent domestic content, when that battery is installed in a U.S.-built, domestic-brand vehicle, it is considered 100-percent domestic content, says AIAM spokesperson Kim Custer. But if that exact battery is installed in a U.S.-built import-brand vehicle, it is considered only 70-percent domestic content."