Buying American Cars What Does It Mean?

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Comments

  • motorcity6motorcity6 Member Posts: 427
    Good Buy' oldtimer from another oldtimer..Good luck with the Saturn!!!!

    Detroit is in deep dung..and we may be a nation driving foriegn cars only in the future.

    All cars produced by non-Big3 are foreign..I get somewhat tired of reading about the 85% domestic content on the Toys or Hons..Their supplier base is foreign owned, [non-permissible content removed], Korean or some other cheap labor outfit with an oriental paper trail.

    Get the $25 Billion bridge loan from Japan.

    Honda will start building propane-powered cars in the Hoosier State..Probably will be a non-smoking car and you can get a refill at your local Farm Bureau oulet..Boone Pickens has got to be counting his money..and can't believe how it is really growing..

    Drill, Drill, love the oil, however with our next President realizing that the Eco-whacks all voted for him will tell us that our love affair with the cars of yore is over and we can look forward to life of government mandates like Russia, China, Cuba, and Venezuela..

    Interesting Mag issue dtd 11/24/08-Forbes, Energy+Genius, a special edition covering energy and all the pluses and downside to the master schemes..Our current direction is truly a hodgepodge of misdirection using our tax-money to enrich any Bozo with a half-baked idea to lessen our hunger for oil.

    Our silly Democrats will have to go for drilling once they pull their heads out of the Vacuum..
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    Every time you post it's a hit and run on your own political agenda. How about taking it someplace else?
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • oldcemoldcem Member Posts: 309
    Sounds like you made your decision much like I did. I looked at Hyundai, Honda, Toyota, Saturn, and Ford midsizers with V6's. Right off the bat my trade was worth $1500 - $2000 less on any of the Asians at the dealers here. Hyundai had some rebate money, and, about matched the discounted price Saturn gave me if I had no trade. The Ford was less well equipped at the Saturn price, and, I didn't like it as well. The Honda and Toyota's sticked for a good bit more, and, the dealers weren't inclined to discount much.at all. They wanted around $30K (Car, negative equity on trade, tax and title, and financing) to get one off the lot. With Saturn, I had positive equity, got the car at invoice, and 0% financing. Total out the door price was $20,005 for the Aura XE 3.5. I've put 18K miles on her since May with no problems.

    Regards:
    OldCEM
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,045
    Total out the door price was $20,005 for the Aura XE 3.5. I've put 18K miles on her since May with no problems.

    Have you kept track of your Aura's fuel economy? I know a lot of people say just get the 3.6, but I like the way the 3.5 splits the difference between the 4-cyl and the 3.6. It's not as economical as the 4-cyl, and not as powerful as the 3.6, but strikes a good middle ground, especially for the price. Sure, an Accord or Camry V-6 gives you the power AND the economy, but you pay a lot more for one, as well.

    Before they went to the new rating system, I think the 3.5 Aura was EPA-rated at 20/30. My aging 2000 Intrepid was rated at 20/29, so it looks like a step ahead to me...slightly better economy with a more powerful, torquier engine.
  • oldcemoldcem Member Posts: 309
    Yes, I check my fuel economy regularly. In town she's been getting about 24 MPG. On my interstate business trips, running a steady 70 - 75 mph, the mileage stays between 30 and 33. I know the Asian V6s will out drag race me, but, I haven't found anybody that gets the mileage I do. Co-workers that own Camry and Accord V6 automatics indicate they get 24 - 29 mpg running the same hilly interstates I do. Of course Saturn dropped the 3.5 - 4 speed automatic in 09. Would have been interesting if they had offered the 3.5 with the new 6 speed automatic. Other nice things about the Aura - it rides and handles like a European car, has excellent brakes, has stability and traction control as standard equipment, and is dead quiet inside at interstate speeds. I'm not on a "buy American" kick either - my other car is an import (European) and I enjoy driving both of them.

    Regards:
    OldCEM
  • motorcity6motorcity6 Member Posts: 427
    It's your right to drink Kool-Aid, just don't overdo it..You misread your ballot at voting time..

    You like Hondas, go visit the folks driving the little beer cans..

    We are talking about American cars on this forum..The products that made this country, great and prosperous, started in Detroit, not Toyko.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Ah, but Honda makes cars in America. So how can you not talk about them? And Toyota, Kia, Hyundai, Subaru....
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Buying American MEANS buying Honda's and Toyota's. They will be the future of the industry over the Detroit Three because they can stand on their own.

    You can't even buy a Happy Meal with the value from the sale of 1 share of stock of GM!!! Horrible!!

    GM represents everything that needs to be changed in American Auto manufacturing BUSINESS. Hide your head in the sand all you want but in a global economy, GM, Ford and Chrysler FAILED. Period, the END!

    Hopefully, there will be enough to salvage from the ashes to rebuild this once great U.S. industry. Hopefully, Toyota and Honda will help.

    Regards,
    OW
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    I have loads of American cars both in the driveway now and former residents of same driveway. They happen to be made in the USA by Japanese companies.

    By contrast my Ford was made in Canada and my Chrysler in Mexico.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Oh, I got the Honda Accord SE with stability control, 6 disc stereo, OHC V6, and other good stuff for $22,500, so that is way less than getting the Aura XE 3.5, considering the round trip. And my trade in was like a good $1,500 better at Honda. Looked to me like Saturn was not dealing. They try the old add-on routine too, with etched security on windows, pin strips, and c r a p like that. I must say, if you could get a Saturn OHV for say $18K, it may be a deal. Consider the resale value at somewheres near that of a fiat, or yugo, unless GM pulls out of its dive. As for engineering, I hate the foot emergency brake, and the regular brakes are always too high, as in too much higher than is the gas pedals. They do this on performance machines too, like the Solstice. The Saturn did seem solid, but a little narrow. The 6 sp automatic was nice and the V6 3.6 dual OHC is a really nice engine. I think a nice used CTS with that engine would be my preferred GM at this point, or a C5 Vette.
    -Loren
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Ugh! I absolutely HATE those handbrakes sticking out from the console! I much prefer the footbrake like the GM cars have!
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,691
    Amen on the foot brakes. It's so much more logical than "Oh my God, there's a car pulling out in front and the regular brakes aren't working, so as I am steering with one hand, I'm going to pull backwards with my right hand." Pushing on a brake pedal for the emergency is much more physiologically correct.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    My Sequoia has the foot brake. I just rented a Chevy HHR and it had the hand brake along side my seat. It is probably cheaper to install a hand brake in the middle. I do recall driving a VW Bug from Whitehorse, Yukon Territory to Anchorage, AK with just the hand brake. 700 miles on ice and snow. I got used to no foot brakes and drove it a week in Anchorage until the new master cylinder kit arrived.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    I think we've discussed this issue in the past, but I prefer a hand brake with a manual transmission. To me it's just more natural to yank the hand brake up since my hand is already there. I also prefer the shifter on the console even with an auto trans. When I'm towing, their are many times I want to hold a gear and the console shifter is much easier to use than a column shifter.

    My Expedition has the brake release to close to the hood release. I always use the emergency/parking brake on the boat ramp, and I can't tell you how many times I've accidentally yanked the hood release when when trying to release the park brake.

    That said, I wouldn't base my purchase on where the parking brake or gear shift is located.
  • alltorquealltorque Member Posts: 535
    Ah yes.............foot-operated parking brakes. A carry-over from horse-drawn wagon days, so probably quite appropriate for most American cars. (Sorry, couldn't resist).

    Once asked a MB dealer why big Mercs were fitted with foot-operated parking brakes, (when they were). "Well, they're designed for the USA market. Doughnut in one hand, coffee cup in the other; how else are they going to put the parking brake on ?" True story.

    Remember being a passenger in a big Citroen, (maybe a CX or similar), manual transmission, so 3-pedals - plus a foot-operated parking brake. Hmmm.....4 pedals and just 2 feet. Great fun on hill starts. I'll stick to handbrakes, thank you very much.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Great fun on hill starts. I'll stick to handbrakes, thank you very much.

    While I agree with your point, I've owned many manual transmission vehicles and have never needed/used a parking brake to help me on a hill. I prefer to scare the hell out of the person behind me that pulled up to close:)
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,045
    Ah yes.............foot-operated parking brakes. A carry-over from horse-drawn wagon days, so probably quite appropriate for most American cars. (Sorry, couldn't resist).

    I think the foot brake might be best in a situation where you need to do one panic stop. A situation where the prime goal is to simply bring the car to a complete stop as quickly as possible.

    But in other situations where you have to regularly apply and release the brake, I think a handbrake would be easier. Easier to pull the brake with your hand and apply just the pressure you need, and then either press the button or twist the handle to release. With a foot brake, once the thing's activated, you have to use your hand to pull the release, a much clunkier operation than using a handbrake.

    I drove my grandmother's '85 LeSabre about 9 miles with no brakes once, and stopping was a bit of a pain. I tried to use the emergency brake as little as possible, because it was foot operated. Instead I'd just try to time the lights, plan my stops as far ahead as possible, keep plenty of distance from the cars in front of me, downshif frequently, etc. It wasn't too hard to do, but still a bit of a pain with the foot brake.

    A few years before that, I did the same thing with a '67 Chrysler Newport with no brakes. However, it had a hand brake, which made stopping a lot more convenient...much easier to apply just the pressure I needed, and then just twist to release.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    Good plan, diesel!

    I don't much care where the parking brake is as long as they're not hiding it someplace. The current fleet has three between the seats and one on the floor. once owned a car that had a long pull handle over on the left under the dash.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    But wasn't the handbrake on that '67 Newport under the left hand side of the dash instead of a big ugly lever sticking out of the transmission hump?
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,045
    But wasn't the handbrake on that '67 Newport under the left hand side of the dash instead of a big ugly lever sticking out of the transmission hump?

    Yeah, that's where Mopar put their handbrakes. My Darts and the DeSoto were the same way, only the DeSoto's is a big chrome thing just waiting to impale your knee if you slide up into it for any reason...which might just be why they don't put handbrakes under the dash anymore!

    I don't have a problem with the handbrake being on the transmission hump. After all, chances are the car has a console and floor shifter there, anyway. Now with a bench seat car, I imagine a foot brake would be mandatory, but I don't see a problem with a handbrake on a car with bucket seats and a console.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    And in the old days, you'd go to hit the floor dimmer switch and land on the e-brake. 4 pedals down there, plus a button.

    Handbrakes are much easier to use when you are doing a 180 power slide into a snow covered parking space.

    We had this discussion months ago over in The Future Of The Manual Transmission. :)

    Future headline? (Swap "Yugo" for "Chevy", "Ford" or "Dodge")

    R.I.P. The last Yugo rolls off the assembly line

    image
  • nwngnwng Member Posts: 663
    you must not be living in a hilly area. one time I was walking on the sidewalk and have to go and help a guy who just could not get his car going up on a stop and go incline traffic light. Turned out he didn't know how to use the ebrake in conjunction with the gas and clutch pedal on an incline start.

    feathering the gas and clutch is good fun only for about 5 minutes, plus your clutch doesn't like you doing it.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    you must not be living in a hilly area. one time I was walking on the sidewalk and have to go and help a guy who just could not get his car going up on a stop and go incline traffic light. Turned out he didn't know how to use the ebrake in conjunction with the gas and clutch pedal on an incline start.

    I've always been able to move my feet fast enough from the brake to the gas and go. I don't live in a hilly area, but I have used a manual trans to pull boats out of a lake on a ramp with over a 25+ degree slope. If you move your feet fast enough and know what you're doing, the vehicle won't roll back at all. Semi drivers go through the same thing, they don't have a parking brake that can be used to hold a hill, then immediately release.

    When I had my Jetta TDI, that little diesel had so much torque at idle I could put the front tire against a curb, slowly let the clutch out and it would climb the curb w/o having to touch the gas pedal. In my neighborhood (wouldn't do this in traffic of course), I could start in first and work my way through every gear ending up in 5th w/o ever touching the gas pedal. Between the diesel torque and quick idle speed control it was easy to do.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Really? How do you back off on the brakes, and then re-apply them using a foot brake. No, I can safely say a foot brake is not an emergency brake, and it is always in the way of legs, and may be hazardous to feet in an accident. Foot emergency brakes are totally wrong.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Does your car also have curb feelers? :shades:
  • obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    The parking brake pedal was never designed to be an emergency brake. If you look at the setup those miniture pads were definitely not designed to stop a car in an emergency situation.

    By the way my parking brake pedal doesn't have a release lever. I have to step on it again to release it. I'd rather have the foot pedal which releases when shifting out of park automatically.

    And if you need to use the parking brake handle to engage the clutch while on a hill, I'd suggest you practice more as you're not using the parking brake as designed.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The old type emergency brakes were just cable activated. My VDub had drum brakes and the handle just stopped the rear wheels. It was not too bad as the engine was in the rear and gave you good traction. If you are into dune buggies with cutting brakes you get used to doing most of your stopping with individual hand brakes. So it is mostly what you get used to. I would not want to try and stop with the foot brake on the Sequoia or Lexus.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Didn't older Chrysler products have a parking brake that locked the driveshaft?
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,045
    Didn't older Chrysler products have a parking brake that locked the driveshaft?

    My DeSoto's parking brake clamps down either on the driveshaft or at the end of the transmission; I can't remember which. But it is in no way connected to the rear brakes of the car.

    I think Mopar used that setup through 1964 on the bigger cars, although the compact Valiant/Lancer/Dart might have started life with a conventional setup that connected the rear brakes.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,691
    > If you look at the setup those miniture pads were definitely not designed to stop a car in an emergency situation

    My parking brake uses the rear brakes, drum or disc, to effect their stopping effort.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • oldcemoldcem Member Posts: 309
    Sounds like you did OK. However Honda here wouldn't deal. As I indicated, I got the Aura off the lot for $20,005 total ( includes tax, title, and financing). The Saturn dealer here tried the add-on bit, but, I told him firmly - either it goes away, or, I walk . The salesman that worked with me that day also offered me a loaded XR model for exactly $4K more. Guess they were hungry.

    Regards:
    OldCEM
  • obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    My parking brake uses the rear brakes, drum or disc, to effect their stopping effort.

    OK. I'll bite. What kind of car you got?
  • motorcity6motorcity6 Member Posts: 427
    Had my last 3 posting removed, no problem, sign of the times I guess???

    Big day is tomorrow, the Bullitt arrives from the Motorcity, just got a call from the trucker and all is well, 8:30am in front of my villa..The noisy piece of nostalgia is a cure for the economic gloom and doom..Lots of carbon will be put into the atmosphere by this neat little bomb..We could use a little "Global Warming" in Fla
    for the last couple weeks have been chilly..I won't carry that subject any further for it could upset the political correctness of this Edmunds forum.

    Honda is running a "sweat shop" in Greensburg, Indiana, paying only $14.85/hr in their new assembly plant..churring out little metal cans called "Civics"..However the wage will elevate to almost $18.00/hr in 2009..Call the UAW folks and see if those Hoosiers would go for $36.00/hr+awesome benefits..Do people really work for a foreign company for such low wages????That's evil!!!

    Indiana is a mecca for the foreigners, a Subaru plant in Lafayette, Ind, home of Purdue Univ where I spent a year and finsihed the trip at Univ of Arizona..one Honda Plt, and a Toy Plant..

    I was born in Indiana, Naptown, Marion county and spent all summers in Monticello. Indiana, White county..family farm and lake home..What a blast!!!

    Filled up the Camry yesterday, 313 miles averaged 22.85mpgs..Sick mileage for an anemic 4-banger of 158hp. Last week I filled the 260hp S/C Pontiac averaging 21.86mpgs for 320 miles.. Now which auto is the fun car???? It ain't the Toy, the Motorcity auto is the winner..

    I did visit the Honda forum on Edmunds when I had the hots for a SiCivic and owners were complaining that clutchs and gearboxs will failing around 10k and the Honda dealers wouldn't step up to the plate on the warranty issue, claiming hotrodding and aggressive driving wasn,t covered by Tokyo standards..I could see where another lawyer would be on my payroll again..Bye Honda..

    Go Ford and grab a Bullitt, however they just may disappear soon, but if they are still around and my Bullitt upchucks something, it will be fixed under warranty..After all, old Henry Ford expects owners of his V-8s to keep the pedal to the firewall, it's part of the American landscape..No [non-permissible content removed]-footing around in the Bullitt..I don't go easy on the Pontiac, like to see the supercharger work a bit, and if it goes South, GM will replace, if they are still around..

    Lighten up folks!!!!! and buy cars you can abuse, for it's tough to preserve a 4-banger sitting in a tin can and trying to milk it for 200k miles..Buy the Big3 iron and get complaining rights if it fails.

    I destroyed a 48 Chevy motor trying to get 70mph in 2nd gear, when 65 was tops..Old man had a new engine installed and I got the 50 Ford Crestliner V-8 w/od and we could get 90 in second gear, solved a big problem for my teenage yr..The problem with the straight 6 48 Chev was lack of full-pressure lubrication and the scoops on the crankshaft didn't supply even oil at high RPMs..The gangsters always used Fords in the old days..

    Getting low on money, move to the robust economy of Indiana and enjoy working for a [non-permissible content removed] company. Making 30 grand a yr, you may have to eat raw fish to survive, but it's our new energy, green life style..

    No politics today, just reality...Life in the 30's, 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's was great..However 2008 and beyond is iffy..

    Old-timer, enjoy the Saturn for it will serve you well..

    Are there any Collectible Asian built cars going across the auction block at Barrett-Jackson???? My neighbor still is trying to sell me his 1990 Twin-Turbo 370hp 300 ZX something, my offer is 4k, he still has his 2002 SVT Focus, on it's third of tires w/only 36k miles..all [non-permissible content removed] directional tires which have a life span of zip...
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    SVT Focus, on it's third of tires w/only 36k miles..all [non-permissible content removed] directional tires which have a life span of zip...

    I bought a new SVT Contour in '98 and it would eat through Goodyear Eagle GSCs every 20k with 90% hwy driving. You want sticky tires, you get zero tread life.

    BTW, I grew up in Indiana too. Spent many days on Lake Shaffer and Freeman. My wife and I actually rented a house on Lake Freeman when we were newly weds and we both graduated from Purdue. Small world
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,956
    paying only $14.85/hr in their new assembly plant..churring out little metal cans called "Civics"..However the wage will elevate to almost $18.00/hr in 2009..Call the UAW folks and see if those Hoosiers would go for $36.00/hr+awesome benefits..Do people really work for a foreign company for such low wages????That's evil!!!

    I think American's willing to work for a DECENT $14.85/hour are commendable and I'm sure that is far preferred to NOT WORKING AT ALL or becomming equivalent to a begger on the street asking the GOV't to pay their way!!!!!! I know I'd prefer to work for $14.85 an hour before you'd catch me asking for a handout/bailout/donation/charity/welfare payment. I guess the Big 3 like unemployment as all their workers seemed determined to send the companies in that direction.

    I hope those Lear Jet Leases were worth the millions spent on them. I'm sure the Average Joe appreciates their retirement fizzling into half while the Big 3 CEO's begging in DC spend more than half that retirement account in one day.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Honda is running a "sweat shop" in Greensburg, Indiana, paying only $14.85/hr in their new assembly plant

    $30,000 a year to start is pretty damn good for someone just walking in off the street with no previous experience. Hell, those impoverished Indianans could buy a new Civic on that kind of moolah.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,045
    $30,000 a year to start is pretty damn good for someone just walking in off the street with no previous experience. Hell, those impoverished Indianans could buy a new Civic on that kind of moolah.

    I imagine that housing is also much more affordable in that area than in many parts of the country. I looked on Realtor.com, and it looks like for maybe $100K, you could get a halfway decent house out there. Not a starter castle or anything like that, but not a shotgun shack, either.

    I don't know anything about the economic standing of that area, but heck, $14.85 an hour could be a Godsend, if it's an otherwise impoverished area.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    $30,000 a year in Philly ain't gonna cut it unless you have a decent second job or a wealthy spouse or sugar daddy/mommy. You will most likely live in a 1-bedroom apartment in a marginal neighborhood where the rent alone will consume 45% to 50% of your income. You will also need a bus schedule, a nearby Sav-A-Lot grocery store and a decent handgun. A good used Smith & Wesson Model 10 can be had for around $225.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    I'm originally from Indiana, and have lived in many small and large towns through out the midwest from Ohio, Indiana, Missouri, Kansas and now illinois. I'd say $14-15/hr is an average wage for these areas. Cost of living is nothing like Chicago or what Lemko describes in Philly. $150k buys a respectable home, and many started houses can easily be had for $100k.

    We moved from Wichita, Ks a year and a 1 1/2 ago and it was pretty much the same way. Most of the aircraft blue collar jobs where in the $12-$16/hr range. Housing was inexpensive. We sold our 3 year old ranch with 3,000 finished sq/ft 5 bedrooms, safe/tornado room, custom landscaping, sprinkler system, 3 car garage, in a subdivision with a 18 hole golf course for just under $200k. You could get a new house in a new development for under $130k.

    Nothing like what I was looking at on the north side of Chicago, where we almost to. $350k got you a 30 year old tri-level that still had 70's paneling. That's insane. I'm sure prices have probably dropped a bit since then though.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    I wonder how many hours of o/t are available for these $14-16/hr jobs? Obviously things are slow now, but when the economy was good, everyone I knew that punched a clock was getting all the o/t they wanted.
  • oldcemoldcem Member Posts: 309
    Thanks - I am enjoying the Saturn. So far it's been a gem. Enjoy your new ride and don't get too many speeding tickets. I miss the old cars as well. I bought a 1937 Dodge Coupe when I was 14, and, started restoring her. Drove the old Dodge through high school and kept it through my first year of college. Found a girl who liked riding around in the stately old Dodge as much as I did. Sold the car about 43 years ago, but, still got the girl.

    Regards:
    OldCEM
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    I always said Ford was smart...of the big 3, they're the one most likely to make it just fine (you know, there's no recent Ford threads in News and Views?) With gas prices dropping, it's the PERFECT time to bring out a V8 Bullit. If anyone can manage to get the credit to buy one anyway, but I'm sure some will, and that will jack up Ford's sales when they need it most.

    Of course, if you want carbon emissions, you need an old-school diesel V8 with 20 HP and 500 foot-pounds of torque that runs out of breath at 1000 feet. :shades:

    Oh, and working in that Civic plant probably beats the stuffing out of working for Wal-Mart. But if you want complaining rights, you want Korean iron, since they'll stand by their product for 10 years, something the domestics don't want to do yet. Wish they would, good P/R decision that should boost immediate sales and not cost much to implement initially; the costs are all down the road, but by then they're out of the woods or out of business anyway. :shades:
  • alltorquealltorque Member Posts: 535
    Here's a view from 3000 miles to the east, i.e. the U.K. Whilst it would be a shame to see the Big 3 fail on a Global basis, I'm not sure I feel the same about a USA-only fail, (if such a thing were possible, which I doubt).

    Here in Europe, Ford produce a good line of cars; Fiesta, Focus and Mondeo. All of which are really very good cars all, of course, with a suitable variety of economic engines. The Mondeo is arguably a better car than the BMW 3-series, (forget M3 and its ilk, Ford don't play there any more). It also offers more bangs per buck across the range. Having said that, the 3-series outsells it due mainly to "badge snobbery" and the desire for a more exclusive marque. (Although, as there are fewer Mondeo's than 3's the reverse would seem to be the case). :confuse:

    GM, in the form of Vauxhall/Opel have the Corsa, Astra and new Insignia. Again, all now good cars with a suitably diverse range of engine options; incl the all-important small diesels, (as with Ford).

    Chrysler have...................er, the 300C and the Grand Cherokee plus some other even more mundane stuff that just cannot compete. On second thoughts, Chrysler group could disappear from Europe and not be missed. :sick:

    So, can we please keep the Euro Fords and GM's all of which, I'm pretty sure, would sell well in the "new" USA market - if the folks in charge could just get on with marketing them as-is rather than trying to "Americanise" them.

    Just my two-pennyworth, of course.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    if the folks in charge could just get on with marketing them as-is rather than trying to "Americanise" them.

    You have poked the problem Right in the eye. We having dueling regulators in this country that are not satisfied till they have completely bastardized every vehicle made. For example: the Smart as sold in the EU and Canada gets 70+ MPG. About what you would expect from such a small vehicle. By they time it hit our showrooms it was lucky to get 35 MPG. I am amazed that VW was finally able to get their fine diesel cars passed all the eco wienies that control our government. We do not have a single American nameplate sold in the USA that is even close to the VW TDI and its 50 MPG.

    It would be a shame to bring down a company that is building good cars outside our restrictive borders. So maybe GM and Ford can continue in the rest of the World. Maybe someday we will be freed from the tyranny that prevents good high mileage cars & PU trucks from being built and sold here.
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    motorcity6: Honda is running a "sweat shop" in Greensburg, Indiana, paying only $14.85/hr in their new assembly plant..churring out little metal cans called "Civics"..However the wage will elevate to almost $18.00/hr in 2009..Call the UAW folks and see if those Hoosiers would go for $36.00/hr+awesome benefits..Do people really work for a foreign company for such low wages????That's evil!!!

    The fact that you still refer to Civics as "little metal cans" and consider a starting wage of $14.58 per hour for unskilled labor to be worthy of a "sweat shop" could serve as Exhibit A of the Detroit mentality, and why GM and Chrysler were in Washington, D.C., begging for a handout to prevent bankruptcy.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    I hope those Lear Jet Leases were worth the millions spent on them. I'm sure the Average Joe appreciates their retirement fizzling into half while the Big 3 CEO's begging in DC spend more than half that retirement account in one day.

    I'm fine with requiring Mullaly and Waggoner selling their jets, as long as our public servants (Reid & Pelosi) have to sell theirs, which are paid for by the taxpayers directly..... Otherwise, that is none of Congress' business. What a bunch of hypocrites!
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I do agree with you. However it is perception. One of the things that appealed to me about Sarah Palin was the fact she sold the state's jet and started flying coach around the state on Alaska Airlines. This gives the perception of being as conservative with state money as you are asking others to be. I see no reason that Pelosi and Reid should fly anything but commercial. I don't think the other members of Congress have that kind of wasteful perk. If they fly enough to get Gold status and fly First Class that is fine. Congress is supposed to be the Servants of the people. They are anything but subservient to the voters.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Let the Big 3 execs fly one of these to DC and see if that gets anyone's attention.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think they better stick with Cessna and Gulfstream. That was also interesting about the Ford family voting rights. I have not figured out how they keep 40% control with 2.97% of the stock. Sounds like old man Ford was pretty sharp.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Ford was privately held by Henry's heirs until the early 1950s, when they held what amounted to an IPO to raise some capital. IIRC, at that point the (diluted) ownership stakes of the family were converted into preferred, nontradeable stock.
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