Buying American Cars What Does It Mean?

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  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,038
    No one but an eco dweeb or high mileage commuter would buy a Prius when gas is cheap.

    Or someone who believes that these low fuel prices are only a temporary thing.

    When you are living at home for free you can afford an expensive ride.

    That's nice when you get there, but how many people can claim that nowadays?
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    I think the latest round of gas price hikes have been ingrained in a lot of peoples minds enough that they still consider fuel efficiency a priority when buying. Countless stories of people who could not afford to fill up the tank but could not afford to take the hit either if they tried to trade it. They were stuck with a vehicle that they couldn't afford to drive anymore... I really believe the days of excess like the Tahoe, the Suburban, the Escalade are history and buying one will be out of need (towing) rather than desire.

    Witness the dumping of Hummer and the continual decline in sales of BOF trucks that are contributing to GM's demise. Gas is at 1.73 here and yet you are still more likely to spot bigfoot than you would a Tahoe or a Suburban...
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    you are still more likely to spot bigfoot than you would a Tahoe or a Suburban...

    Not the case in So CA. It is a sea of blinged out SUVs and PU trucks. Hummers were never more than a niche. Most of the Tahoe, Denali Escalade drivers around here are early 20s. With $10k worth of ugly wheels and tires. Or an F350 diesel Ford lifted sky high. If it were not for big SUVs and PU trucks GM & Ford would already be missing from the CA landscape. People that buy cars go foreign. What was the statistic in San Francisco, 86% import vehicles. I don't think SoCA is that high, but close. We still have lots of retired Navy guys that drive Caddies. Non Com retirees drive Oldsmobile and Buick. They usually keep cars for 20 years like Lemko. That is not going to keep GM going.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    No one but an eco dweeb or high mileage commuter would buy a Prius when gas is cheap.

    Aren't you the same gagrice who declared that high gas prices made trucks and SUVs a good buy, since there was little demand for them? Same principle applies here in the converse.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,038
    Aren't you the same gagrice who declared that high gas prices made trucks and SUVs a good buy, since there was little demand for them? Same principle applies here in the converse.

    I've actually thought about that. Have the lower gas prices put enough pressure on small cars yet to knock their prices down? If I could pick up something like an '06 or newer Civic on the cheap, I might consider it, but I doubt if they're at fire-sale prices just yet!

    A local used car lot has an '04 Civic coupe, red, stickshift, 50K miles, for $11K. And a 1994 Accord DX with 95K miles on it for $5495. Automatic, a/c, but crank windows.

    They also have a '98 Corolla with 105K miles, white, automatic for $6995. I don't care how good their reputation is, but in my mind, that price is a rip! Now it's a nice one...an LE model. Power windows. Ad even says it has side airbags! Were those even out yet in '98? Still, I can't see paying that kind of money for an economy car with over 100K miles.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Why is it all of a sudden if there's a union the onus is 100% on the union to set the out-of-market wage, instead of the goofball at the car company that was dumb enough to sign a contract agreeing to it?

    You're kidding, right? Because if the goofball at the car company doesn't sign, they strike and shut the company down until they agree to the out of market wage!
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Probably one good application for the Hybrid technology.......
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,686
    >Why is it all of a sudden if there's a union the onus is 100% on the union to set the out-of-market wage, instead of the goofball at the car company that was dumb enough to sign a contract agreeing to it?

    The pattern for the union in the past was to pick the more successful of the Big 3 and threaten to strike them while negotiating with them or pick the one with the most to lose with a strike at that time. If they couldn't reach an agreement, they struck that company and caused them no income and loses in an area where they were susceptible to a stoppage at that time. I believe there was a strike at the Malibu plant when the new, competitive Malibu was first being brought out.

    Then after damaging one company over the others and obtaining an agreement, they use that agreement against the other of the Big 3.

    This method was effective through the decades: suffer huge losses relative to the other two weaker companies or make an agreement that is against the company/customer's interests.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Amazing? How?

    Chevy's own Traverse is just as big, has more cargo capacity, no ancient 4-speed, gets 16/23 and costs 30 grand less. Even in towing, the EH can tow only 400lbs more. For an even closer comparison, load up a Buick Enclave and the "amazing" goes away very quickly, unless you have a fetish for 12 inch tall H-Y-B-R-I-D stickers or the gangsta-rap image that goes along with owning the Caddy.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,038
    I think it's amazing that they can take something that weighs roughly three tons, and can manage to get it to break 20 mpg. But you're right, there are more practical vehicles out there.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    So knowing they'd go out of business signing, they signed. I'm still waiting to hear why it's 100% the UAW's fault, and no percentage of blame is assigned to the auto manufacturers.
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    "Then after damaging one company over the others and obtaining an agreement, they use that agreement against the other of the Big 3."...the actual name for that, no surprise, is "pattern bargaining"...
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    A trip from Detroit to Miami in an electric car would probably take two weeks..

    A trip to Miami should take less than a day or two (by plane or train).

    Maybe I will add a SS Trailblazer, 390 hp, 20"wheels, and performance suspension..to my collection

    Yeah, should make a nice hood ornament once gas goes to $20 per gallon. :shades:
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Amazing? How?

    I guess if you have no background in cars or engineering going from 14 mpg to 20 mpg (42% increase) seems easy but it is quite amazing. Imagine a huge/heavy 8 passenger vehicle with a V8 high HP engine with a large payload capacity can get as good a gas mileage as a 4 cylinder 5 passenger Toyota Camry. Or even better than the V6 version.

    Yes it is expensive but the fact that it can be done w/o radical changes to the vehicle is amazing.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    "Imagine a huge/heavy 8 passenger vehicle with a V8 high HP engine with a large payload capacity"

    Escalade Hybrid: 202.5" x 79" x 75.9"
    Traverse: 205" x 78.4" x 72.8"

    EH: 8 passenger seating
    Enclave: Same
    Traverse: 7

    EH Payload: 1339 lbs
    Traverse: 1444 lbs
    FWIW Enclave: 1631 lbs

    Towing capacity EH: 5600 lbs
    Traverse: 5200 lbs

    going from 14 mpg to 20 mpg (42% increase) seems easy but it is quite amazing.

    EH: 20/20/20
    Traverse: 16/23/19

    I guess I'm more impressed with how well they did with the Lambda.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I agree. The BOF SUV's will be dwindling and the CUV's will probably be Hybridized.

    The slick part of the oil market and the fact that OPEC is letting the market cave in is a catch22 for the U.S.

    They know that drillers will discontinue at a high rate and that high prices will be right around the corner.

    Regards,
    OW
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    There is no doubt the current recession and credit crunch has been hitting Americans’ squarely in the wallet, but there appears to be at least one bit of silver lining to the economic downturn – lower gas prices.

    For the month of January, crude oil futures fell to just $43.67, the lowest per barrel price since January 2005. Moreover, many industry experts are predicting that crude oil could fall below $25 per barrel early next year.

    “We’ve got the U.S, U.K., Europe and Japan all in recession for the first time since World War II, and the oil market is reacting,” Chip Hodge, a managing director at MFC Global Investment Management in Boston, told Bloomberg. If China starts to feel the effects of a recession, prices could plummet even lower.

    To put $25 per barrel into perspective, crude oil hit a high of $147.27 per barrel in July, resulting in a per gallon national average record of $4.11 per gallon. At the current per barrel rate of about $44, national prices are hovering around $1.78 per gallon, meaning a drop to $25 or less could result in gas prices tumbling below a dollar per gallon.

    That’s good news for individual families, but a sad commentary on the current state of the world economy.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    The irony is that now is the time to redouble efforts for automotive efficiency and drastically reduce our dependence on the oil industry which in my view is the leading factor in all economic moves in this current and last century.

    I am all for Hybrids and full electric tech. I am sure most members here at Edmunds knows the price of oil will not stay at these levels as the economy turns. The cycles of price fluctuations are fast and burned the Big 3 BIG TIME. We all can not be blind to energy independence as a major goal in the next new economy.

    "We won't be fooled again!"

    Regards,
    OW
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    You got me on that one. I guess in my mind there is NEVER a good time to buy a Prius or any other hybrid. Right now is a good time to buy most any car you like as they are all pretty much red tagged. I got a notice from my Mercedes dealer. As much as $30,000 off of selected models.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    the actual name for that, no surprise, is "pattern bargaining"

    That is how it works. The Teamsters moved our contract date to be first every 3 years. They knew our management was weak. We were also a Co-op so it was easy to get past the board. We would get a nice raise and then they would go after the much bigger AT&T bargaining unit showing the current market wage. Most of the time it worked as we had a reputation for stealing the good techs from AT&T.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,477
    Of course that's for a car that bases at around 150K and has many witheringly expensive options available...and has such steep depreciation that if you trade it in 5-6 years and only 30K miles, you'll cry at the offers you receive.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The new Escalade Hybrid does not match up in any way to the competition. The GL320 CDI is also made in America and will tow 2000 lbs more and is rated 23 MPG highway. I talked to an owner that gets 28 MPG cruising 75 MPH all day. And the Mercedes is about $10k less than the Caddy. Is the Escalade built in the USA or one of our neighbors?

    To me the Escalade is better looking than the Mercedes GL. Unless they have changed the seats in the Escalade since 2007 they are not comfortable for me. I really liked the seats in the 2006 and earlier. New ones are too hard, feel like foam on plywood.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Why don't the high end Mercedes hold their value better? I had a couple try to trade a S600 with very low miles on my Mercedes Sprinter RV. I was tempted as it was a NICE car and the V12 sounded great. They only wanted $30k in trade which seemed very good. I just did not need another big car.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,686
    >...and has such steep depreciation that if you trade it in 5-6 years and only 30K miles

    It's now a US car. I thought from reading opinions here that only US brand cars had depreciation? Mercedes Deutsch ist.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    gagrice: Why don't the high end Mercedes hold their value better?

    They cost a fortune to fix when out of warranty. Unless you have very deep pockets, or are friends with a competent, reasonably low-cost mechanic, it's best to stay away from used, high-end German luxury cars.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,477
    What grbeck said, and a W220 S600 is an especially risky proposition as it has an endless amount of problem areas compared to earlier V12 models. They are beautiful comfortable cars, but so insanely complex and made of such expensive parts. They have a siren song that lures you in, but unless you know what you are doing, you'll be eaten alive. 30K would probably get you an (updated) 03 model that stickered for 150K+ when new. I'd keep away from all but AMG models, which do seem to have somewhat better luck - but some of those can be iffy too, especially 03s it seems.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,477
    The bigger they are, the harder they fall. I shudder to think what a 150K Caddy would be worth in 6 years.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    There is no such thing as a $150K Cadillac and if there was, I doubt very much I'd buy it... that is unless it looked like my 1989 Cadillac Brougham, had all of today's technology, Corvette-like performance and Maybach-quality materials.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    I think he meant 150k as 150 thousand miles...
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,477
    I mean if there was a 150K Caddy, it would fare no better than a 150K V12 MB. And sadly it would probably have Maybach-quality styling and Corvette-quality materials, at least in its initial version.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Oh, my 1989 Cadillac Brougham has 157K on it and it looks fantastic. I doubt it's worth anything, however, to anybody else but me.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    The older Cadillacs and Lincoln Towncars still make a handsome looking limo ride. The 70's thru early 90's look was just right. If buying a big luxo, I think the Euro look years for the Caddy, pre-gaudy extra bling current model, would be my pick. Though in all fairness, I am just being picky. New DTS ain't so bad, as is the extra bling CTS.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    I test drove a '77 Caddy one day, and it had a pretty good sized engine in her, say a 425 or was that 427? If I recall correctly, that was the good HP year + reliability. Then there was the Seville on the Nova chassis, which WAS a collector item. Where on earth did all those go? Ah the days of leaf springs.... :D
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    An acquaintance in 1969 had his Dad's Caddy and wanted to show my brother and I how much pwer it had. It had 472CI/375HP power plant. Back then, that was net HP.

    That sucker layed a strech of rubber (no Posi so one side) at least 100 ft.

    Now that's what I remeber about Cadillac. Those were cars.

    Regards,
    OW
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,038
    An acquaintance in 1969 had his Dad's Caddy and wanted to show my brother and I how much pwer it had. It had 472CI/375HP power plant. Back then, that was net HP.

    That was gross hp, not net. Net hp would probably be around 285-300 hp, which is the rating you would use if you wanted to compare it to today's cars. So in that perspective, 285-300 hp out of a 472 might not sound that impressive. After all, that's about 7.7 liters! However, that sucker had a ton of torque, and you'd get max torque the second you tapped the gas pedal, so it would pin you back in your seat with little provocation.

    The odd thing is, any Caddy built today is probably quicker from 0-60 than a '69 Caddy. But they also have higher-winding engines, DOHC setups, and transmissions with more gears to get there. There's just something cool about being able to smoke the tires (or tire, if you don't have limited slip) on a 5,000 lb beast, yet still be able to take said beast to the local country club and have it fit in perfectly.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,038
    I test drove a '77 Caddy one day, and it had a pretty good sized engine in her, say a 425 or was that 427? If I recall correctly, that was the good HP year + reliability.

    That would be a 425. I think they had 180-185 hp with the 4-bbl, and 190-195 with fuel injection. That engine was used from 1977-79. The big Caddies from that timeframe were fairly reliable, although the 425 wasn't quite as sturdy as the 500. I think it had something to do with the rocker arms, which were a cheaper stamping?

    Back in the 1990's I briefly dated a girl who drove a 1978 Olds 98 that had a 403 with 185 hp. She let me drive it once. That sucker had some guts to it!

    As for those Nova-based Sevilles, I always admired them...until I sat in one. Beautiful looking car, perfect proprtions. Unfortunately, sitting behind the wheel it felt just like a Nova. Cramped for my tastes. I swear a Dodge Dart Special Edition or a Plymouth Volare Premier is actually more suited to my tastes. :blush:

    I still see those Sevilles from time to time at classic car shows, but it's rare to see them used as daily drivers anymore.
  • detroitkidsdetroitkids Member Posts: 1
    American Car dealerships are terrible, rude and shifty. They ask you what you want and when you tell them after lengthy FACE to FACE sit downs and prices that you can only get while you are there. They only sell you what they want to sell you . Why do the ask in the fist place what you want when they can only sell what they have. I have spent a month trying to find a car that comes close to what I wanted at any price and every American dealer has done the take away sale technique. I'm going to get a Toyota.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Try to get a Toyota that was Made in America. I do understand the frustration of the bait and switch used by many car dealers. Though I would say it is about equal among all brands. My worst impression is with Honda dealers. They are by far the most arrogant.

    Also do your research here on Edmund's and get prices by email if you have several dealers that carry the brand you decide on.

    Welcome to the forum
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043

    I have spent a month trying to find a car that comes close to what I wanted at any price


    What are you looking for?
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Thanks, I got the net/gross thing upside down!

    Regards,
    OW
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Just use the Dealer Quotes service at Edmunds and tell them not to bother you if they don't have what you want in stock or can't dealer swap for it. This works at any dealer, not just domestic ones, and emailing back and forth cuts through a lot of dross. It's especially helpful when you've done your test drives and really do know what you want.

    Shipping cars isn't difficult, so you can keep extending your search until you find what you want, even if it's 1,000 miles away.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    One more thing. I am not sure you will have better luck at the non domestic dealers. Per the data GM is a bit better than most of them in the dealer area. Dealers are independent from the OEM's.

    http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2008250

    Now in its 22nd year, the study is a comprehensive analysis of the new-vehicle purchase experience. Overall customer satisfaction is measured based on five factors: dealership facility; salesperson; paperwork/finance process; delivery process; and vehicle price.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "In a strident blog titled "Rescue Detroit," the deposed cofounder of Tesla Motors warns of a world populated by such China-owned vehicles as the "new 2010 Dongfeng Corvette, the new 2011 Tata Mustang [and] the new 2009 Hebei Zhongxing Jeep."

    2010 Dongfeng Corvette? That Could Be the Scenario If Detroit Gets No Federal Bailout

    That thing got aimage?
  • believebelieve Member Posts: 74
    My worst impression is with Honda dealers. They are by far the most arrogant.

    That's interesting, My wife and I have purchased Honda cars etc, since 1977 (the last fuel shortage era). We've used the same dealer for all these years. So I guess I would not throw all dealers in that same barrel as being arrogant. We've used other Honda dealers and only one fell fit your profile of Honda dealers. And, no, I am not a Honda sales person.....though my wife does drive a Fit,,,,me a Wrangler.
    Have a great Christmas.
    Sincerely.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Dealer experience has to many variables. But with a huge data set you can see trends
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    We've used other Honda dealers and only one fell fit your profile of Honda dealers.

    I think it is fair to say that car sales people are not high on my list. So I do not visit very many showrooms. My last 5 vehicle purchases were all online before I ever set foot in a dealership. One we flew to Denver the other Portland Or. I don't spend much time around condescending people. My last time in a Honda showroom was when the Accord hybrid first hit the lots. I was going to give it a shot. The dealer had some huge $5000 market add-on and was not letting anyone test drive the car. The attitude of the salesman was Honda sells themselves without a test drive. By contrast when we went to look at the 2007 Acura MDX the sales person was very well versed in his vehicle and the competition. Offered test drive without being asked. Someone I would highly recommend. My best recent sales experience was last year when we were looking for another SUV. I went to the Cadillac dealer and he took me in 3 different vehicles. Another salesman I would recommend.

    I am sure not all Honda sales people are arrogant. I am sure the one we encountered in El Cajon Ca was. Just as someone posted in here a few days ago. They could not find a good GM dealer so they were going to Toyota. I got news for them. They could get just as much run around at Toyota as any other dealer.

    My advice before ever setting foot in a dealership. RESEARCH, RESEARCH, RESEARCH. That is where Edmund's leads the field.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    The 1977-79 Cadillac DeVilles and Fleetwoods had a 425 V-8. My favorite is the 1979 model.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    My girlfriend from back in the day had a truly awesome 1969 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham. It was fast and quiet. The car would be running and you could barely hear the engine. I'd love to find it or a car like it. Remember that nice 1966 Fleetwood we saw at Carlisle? Too bad it won't fit in my garage. My 1989 Brougham barely makes it.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    My favorite was the 1958 Eldorado convertible. All down hill since then.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I had a 1979 Oldsmobile Ninety-Eight Regency with the 403 V-8. My 1979 Buick Park Avenue had the same engine. Great engine!

    There are PLENTY of those 1-gen Sevilles at the Cadillac shows I attend. Seems every one of them survived along with 1975-78 Eldorados.
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