OW- My opinion is that Detroit needs to get out of the 'mainstream' car business, concentrate on those low tech high profit trucks and SUVs, of course and maybe keep a minimal presence in the specialty car markets e.g. the Vette, Mustang, Camaro etc All this would require a lot of downsizing, which I think would run contrary to those UAW contracts and other expectations. In any case, quite painful and a lot of perfectly good folks out of work . Heck if gas stays at $2 for any prolonged period of time, they might be able to sell those behemoths again, make some money and sign ridiculous labor contracts again in the false euphorias of some black ink. Detroit hasn't been a real factor in the car business anyway, for a number of years now - unless, of course, you are into renting cars .
Captain, AFAIC, Detroit IS out of the mainstream car business when it comes to high efficient sedans and coups are concerned.
If they wanted to sell SUV's into high cost fuel markets, they should have targeted affluent only. Perhaps that will be one area they can manage because $55K for a hybrid SUV has a very small customer base and shrinking extremely fast.
Mainstream SUV's need to make 25 MPG minimum to sell briskly even particularly when the economy turns positive.
I guess significant can mean different things but GM has over 60 plants in NA (powertrain, sheet metal, assembly).
3 are in Canada 3 are in Mexico
Well, if that's the case GM must have dozens of NA plants that are doing nothing. Just surveying Chevrolet, the following cars/trucks are assembled in Canada: Korea, or Mexico - Aveo (of course), Avalanche, Equinox, HHR, Impala, Monte Carlo, and Silverado, a substantial portion of Chevy's overall volume. and a number will increase as those plants you're talking about are allowed to close. That is significant particularily for a manufacturer that claims to be 'American'. Just a guess - but it would seem to me that since Toyota built that $1 billion dollar truck plant in Texas, and in consideration of all the high volume vehicles (Camry etc.) that they have been building in Kentucky for years that the car/truck buyer is more likely to end up with a US made Toyota than a Chevy. By necessity, GM and the other 2) will end up being the same international cos. that the others are - but in the same vein should be embarassed to be calling themselves 'American'' - something that it plainly not the case now and likely even less so in the too near future. The slogan ought to be: Buy American and put another American out of work!
A story I read somewhere today about Toyota pointed out that they were importing 50% of their vehicles, but since their truck production here had been cut, that percentage probably had increased.
I'm not sure that means you're more likely to get a Toyota built in USA than a Chevrolet.
"Well, if that's the case GM must have dozens of NA plants that are doing nothing. Just surveying Chevrolet, the following cars/trucks are assembled in Canada: Korea, or Mexico - Aveo (of course), Avalanche, Equinox, HHR, Impala, Monte Carlo, and Silverado, a substantial portion of Chevy's overall volume. and a number will increase as those plants you're talking about are allowed to close. That is significant particularily for a manufacturer that claims to be 'American'. "
Aveo is overseas, equinox in canada, HHR in mexico, Impala in Canada (with Camaro, MC is gone). Full size trucks will not be made in Canada any longer and are still being made in Mexico. Impala also going to be taken out of Oshawa. I think you got all of them!
So the Camaro (and future Zeta based vehicles) and Equinox will be built in Canada. The HHR and some full size trucks in Mexico ( and there are still plenty of full size truck plants here in the US). The HHR does have a limited future. I have no news on the replacement after the Cruz comes out. So that is 5 models out of maybe 50+ others.
Maybe so, but missing my point - 'Heartbeat of America' Chevrolet is no longer any different that big bad ole Toyota in terms of actually producing cars in this country and may in fact be worse if you consider actual # vehicles built in the US. And as you note, the situation (producing 'American' cars outside of the US) is only getting worse and not only for Chevrolet/GM only.
...but the trend is definitely running in that direction. Toyota as a group builds about half of their sales volume here, with the imports being Lexus, Scion, and mostly the low-volume models (the Prius being the most notable import, but that will change before long). GM still builds more here than Toyota, but their collapsing volume (they will be hard-pressed to crack 3 million this year) and ingrained cost-cutting mentality will even them out fairly soon.
That's great for you, but most people did not have such results buying GM in the 80's. Got a 1987 Olds98 Regency, and it had loads of problems new, and throughout its life until I got rid of the thing. And the trade-in was terrible. I guess others had more sense back then and avoided the Olds and GMs. With wind leaks in the windshield, an engine which chose to stop when it decided to, though would re-start again, inside mirror fell off, the cable to hand brake broke or came off, the paint on the roof top went bad, the mass air flow sensor replaces, crank case sensor replaced, programmable operation manager replaced, transmission replaced, and more lovely things, all within say three years time. I understand they changed the tranny in '88 = my luck, with a more sturdy one. In real money, as in 1987 money, it was $18K new and stickered at $20K, so this was a so called premium car. As the best Olds at the time, all I can say is to take me back to 1973 or older, to find great Oldsmobiles. GM had many of the best looking cars sold in the US of A for all these years. Unfortunately, the promise of just as good as Japan in the 80's, 90's, fell flat.
Today the cars such as CTS and Vette are fine, no doubt, but the damage has been done. Perhaps, if the Unions want to hold on to jobs and GM, they would agree to a pay cut or layoffs when required without pay, and to pay health insurance, before GM goes bankrupt in December. Sure the government can step in and print more money, but what then???
In real money, as in 1987 money, it was $18K new and stickered at $20K, so this was a so called premium car. As the best Olds at the time, all I can say is to take me back to 1973 or older, to find great Oldsmobiles.
Sadly, the "best" (premium) Oldsmobiles of 1987 were not necessarily the best when it came to quality. I'd imagine the most durable models were the Cutlass Supreme sedan/coupe, and the Custom Cruiser wagon, both of which had been in production for years, with plenty of time to get most of the bugs worked out.
1973 was a good year for Oldsmobile, though. Probably not a crappy one in the bunch that year, although those lower body "skegs" on the mid- and full-sized cars tended to bruise up easily and also seemed to rust pretty quickly. But hey, it was the 70's...EVERYTHING rusted!
was more than enough in my one lifetime. I feel like the one domestic vehicle I purchased (and for sure the last) was MORE than enough contribution to the US economy in the form of repairs and tow truck services.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Odd, because my 1988 Buick Park Avenue is essentially the same car as that 1987 Olds Ninety-Eight. Was there that big a difference between the assembly quality of an Oldsmobile and a Buick? I would probably have to run my car into a concrete wall, killing myself in the process, to destroy it.
...ONE American vehicle could've been sufficient for me in my lifetime. With the luck of avoiding accidents and religious care and maintenance, I could probably STILL be driving my 1968 Buick Special Deluxe to this day and well into the future.
Odd, because my 1988 Buick Park Avenue is essentially the same car as that 1987 Olds Ninety-Eight. Was there that big a difference between the assembly quality of an Oldsmobile and a Buick Detroit, particularily GM, has shown a great talent for rebadging ostensibly identical cars. I wouldn't think there was any real differences between you Buick and the other gentlemen's Olds. Assembly quality better at Buick, possibly, but more likely just luck of the draw - or a tribute to your conscientious routine maintainence. Consistency of quality of manufacture has been a Detroit problem for years, witness what has happened to Toyota recently (at least according to CR) some early problems with a few isolated models (the Camry V6 being one) have been corrected all within about 1 model year and that car along with some others are now all rated superior in that regard. With Detroit this kind of thing is the exception, not the rule, and this remains as true today as it was back in the 80s..
I've heard that the 4-speed automatic transmission that GM used for its FWD cars was improved for 1988, compared to 1987. That was the biggest thing, but at that time, GM was making running improvements to the cars from year to year, and possibly even within a given model year, so the later models were probably more reliable than the earlier ones. The first ones, 1985, were particularly bad.
On the subject of quality though, back in the late 80's and 90's, the Buick LeSabre consistently won awards from JD Powers for initial quality and such. But you never heard anything about the FWD Olds 88 or Pontiac Bonneville, which were the same car. When it comes to things like the engine, transmission, a/c, etc, though, they should all be the same for a given model year. Sometimes minor things can make a difference with those JD Powers surveys, though. Pontiacs back then tended to have junky interiors with lots of little pieces that would easily break and fall off. Buicks were much better in regard, and I'm guessing Oldsmobiles were, too. So it's possible that it was just little piddly defects that worked against the Bonneville, and possibly the 88 as well. If a Bonneville has three pieces of trim fall off, that probably counts as three defects, but if a Taurus dumps its transmission, but is fine otherwise, that's only one defect.
It's also kind of curious that the Electra/Park Ave never got all that highly praised for its quality, in the same light that the LeSabre did.
Oh, on that subject, something just popped into my mind. In my old 1985 Consumer Guide, they have a test of a LeSabre and a Delta 88, the last of the RWD models. They rated the LeSabre fairly high for its fit and finish, paint quality, interior, etc. But they trashed the Delta 88! I wonder if the LeSabre and Delta 88 were built on separate assembly lines? If so, that could have something to do with it. Another possibility is that quality was inconsistent enough in those days that maybe they just got ahold of a good Buick, but a sloppy Olds?
That last RWD LeSabre was a really nice car with a really plush interior. I remember that sharp example we saw at Carlisle about two years back. Funny that the Park Ave/Electra didn't do as well as the LeSabre in the quality reviews. It's basically the same car with nicer trim and a more upright back window. I was surprised how much rear seat room the '88 Park Ave had when I first got it.
I've been wondering how frustrated those Hybrid customers are now that gas is reapproaching $2 a gallon.... Must feel great to be green and have spent a $5 premium to feel that way, cause they're not saving any money now after you factor in the initial cost.
Well hopefully they're thinking long-term, and that fuel prices will ultimately go back up. Plus, while it's hard to put a dollar figure on it, there is the satisfaction of knowing you're conserving fuel, plus the convenience of not having to stop off and refuel as often.
I'm sort of going through the same thing with the heat pump I had installed back in September. I made the decision back over the summer, when home heating oil hit $5.60+ per gallon. Now, I wouldn't be surprised if it was down under $3.00 per gallon. By the time you factor in all the ductwork, and the electrical upgrades my old house required, that sucker set me back $12,650. It's going to take a long time to recoup that initial cost. I averaged about 450 gallons of oil per year, although last winter was a bit mild. Plus I did some insulating and sealing, which helped a bit. My initial estimate was that my electric bill might go up around $500-600 total for the year because of the heat pump. It'll raise my bills in the winter, but in the summer, it'll probably lower them because the heat pump should be more efficient than the three window units I had been using. Also, the service contract for the furnace was running about $200 per year, and was going to go up to $300.
So initially, I was figuring the thing might save me about $2200-2500 per year. More if oil prices rose. Or breakeven in 5-6 years, max. It might take longer now. But at least I'll have the comfort of central air throughout the whole house. Plus, now I have heat upstairs. The old oil furnace only had ducts downstairs, so heat rising up the stairwell was all that warmed up the upstairs, plus occasional space heater use. And I'll never again have to worry about turning off the window a/c in the kitchen if I want to use the microwave, for fear of tripping the circuit breaker. :P
And while fuel prices are suddenly low again (we would've bitched about these prices back in the summer of 2004), I'm sure it's only a matter of time before they go up.
I just hope people don't get too short-sighted and start dumping their hybrids for guzzlers again!
My point was not economics since your remark was based on being "green". People do buy the SUV's and in fact there was a report today on the radio that an SUV plant is working OT due to demand with gas at $1.90/gallon.
Going from about 10 MPG to 20 MPG on a huge SUV saves a whole bunch more fuel than the same on a Camry vs. Camry Hybrid. That is why someone should bother. Americans are going to buy the vehicles they want when they can.
I think spending 70K on a car makes one forfeit the right to complain about mileage
I hope the suckers are lining up to buy SUVs again...these gas prices are an anomaly, and the same people will regain their victim mentality when reality sets back in.
In an odd turn of events, the General Motors Assembly Plant in Arlington will begin working overtime next month as GM struggles with the severe financial crisis that's gripping American businesses.
Tony Sapienza, a spokesman for GM production, said Friday that the Arlington overtime is not related to any future announcements on cuts and closures.
The plant builds full-size SUVs such as the Chevrolet Tahoe and GMC Yukon, a segment that has been in steep decline all year. But GM has offered large incentives on big pickups and SUVs, and sales have increased some as gas prices have eased.
"It is purely market-driven and could be related to a drop in supply because of our employee discount sales event," Mr. Sapienza said of the overtime decision.
In addition, full-size SUVs are some of GM's more profitable vehicles at a time when the company is reportedly burning through $1 billion a month in cash.
Wendi Sabo, a spokeswoman for the Arlington plant, said the factory's 2,500 workers will begin working overtime Nov. 3 and continue through the end of the year.
The plant's two shifts will each work one hour of overtime a day Monday through Thursday and a half-hour on Friday. They will also work two Saturdays in November and one in December.
The Govt is bailing out the UAW, not the auto companies..It's the liberal way, however the we should blame the Big3 system..Our Democrat buddies destroyed Detroit, no drill, no oil, no jobs,and etc.....Took a long time to do, just like cigarettes, but destruction of manufacturing base is essential..
At 75 years of age, I could really give a hoot, but our kids will have a hard way to go in achieving wealth..
Last week I did buy a 09 Mustang Bullitt in Detroit which is in a garage near the motorcity until I pick it up . The little green car is sitting next to a red 08 Chrysler 300, Hemi.. It was a good deal, nothing great, but gives me the opportunity for a quick breakin schedule starting from Detroit to Cinny, Ohio on I-75 with speeds between 50-70mph and then 70-90 to Venice, Fla..
I really doubt if our giddy liberal party will allow Detroit to build these fun cars in the future, for they will be demanding cars designed to run on corn, sugar cane, weeds, manure, tree limbs, hydrogen, butane, or soybeans..
After Obama takes office, gas pricing will zoom up again..I figure that to drive the GPGT or the Bullitt will run about $6000/yr in gas costs..but there will be plenty of gas..
The [non-permissible content removed] stateside plants will be unionized soon after the Obama starts his term, but wages will not really balloon..Ensuring future votes..
Enjoy your little 4-banger foreign cars or maybe it's a hybrid, good move, for I need the gas you save to keep my two gas hogs running..
If you get laidoff due to the recession, cheer up for you may qualify for welfare under the new govt plan..Change??????, about all you will have left in your pocket..
The second year for the Bullitt, hummmm? I thought these are always one year runs. I do like the package. Of course, a few grand off to make the price within reason, is called for, no doubt. Hope good ol' Ford survives. Guess the '09 Stangs are a hang-over party until the 2010 hits the showrooms ( those left ) in the Spring of '09.
How about the a loan from the US taxpayers, after an agreement with the Union for a third cut in pay across the board, including retirement pensions, and the worker pays for their own insurance, with discounted rates available as a large pool insurance rate for basic hospital stay to cover major medical bills only? Management would also have to agree to a third cut in pay.
Maybe Japan should advance 50 Billion to level the playing field..After all they invaded this country using ex-congressional folks who turned to the field of lobbying to fill their pockets with yen....Tradefree industrial zones were established to allow the invasion..I spent two years running the sales of a Japanese plant in the Battle Creek, Mich area..early-80s, it was a giveaway program and some of the product was "junk".
Slice the union pay and get the right to run the plant..Let management's pay stand for the automotive end is a tough game..for somebody has to make decisions..The union is liberal, their game is looking for the the bad side, confusion and complaining is their goal..Spent 6 yrs running a manufacturing plant near Flint and yes, we had the UAW. We had the right to run the plant, the Big3 gave away that right..I have seen paycheck stubs on janitors making !00k/yr. in the late 90s..
The Big3 have been burning money for years, and the Govt has finally screwed GM, Ford, and Chrysler with it's ecology stance and lack of domestic oil..The whole scenerio has been in play for years..
The whack jobs pushing the "Global Climate" mantra will stiffle the country for they have a good start, and no quick fix is available..Just BS by the volumes..Take a look at the mortgage mess and the history of Freddie and Fannie, DEMOCRATS IN ACTION..Can't wait until they get their hands on HEALTH CARE.. NO HEALTH CARE IS COMING..
Maybe Japan should also pay the United States back $billions for six+ decades of military protection lest they'd have become the Nippon Soviet Socialist Republic.
And then Israel and Pakistan can give us back the untold billions they've conned us into giving them, Europe can retroactively pay up for 60 years of defense...of course we'd then have to give something to the other half of Europe for throwing them to the Soviet wolves and enabling the red horror...maybe it would be a wash...or maybe it could prop up the sinking economy :shades:
EU = EUSSR, NAU - NAUSSR...maybe it's destiny :lemon:
Now the US auto industry are the victims? :confuse: Of course during the better years of great profit, the same three enjoyed trampling those which got in there way, killing off the competition. The unions gladly accepted wages which were very generous. The management made wrong decisions costing billions, yet more money always came along in time to make light of it. They always knew what the customer wanted, so somehow you were to adjust to latest trend they though up. Over one hundred years time to retool for next great generation of car, yet the taxpayer now needs to chip in some extra bucks to retool -- what??? Where, or where has the greatness of American engineering and industry gone? :sick: It was not so long ago in history when the USA was top in the game.
Yes, a loan is not a bad thing. Yes, keep American jobs. Yes, the union needs to be in on the plan and do their part by taking some deep cuts for a few years. Save the company - save your jobs. If management doesn't perform well in the same period of time as union workers suffer wage wise, then fire them. But by all means take deep cuts now, with the promise of earing what ever a fair sum per hour is say three to five years from now.
appear to only have competence and profitibility in the sale of trucks and SUV's, therefore, they should scale down to be lean and mean in that segment only.
I could live with them surviving as a bit player in the auto industry, but this practice of subsidizing substandard, irrelevant, undesired, and uncompetitive cars has got to stop.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
You forgot that the various state and local governments have subsidized the Japanese plants for years - giving them generous tax breaks and incentives to locate in their locales. The reality of the situation - close to where I live is a huge Toyota engine plant. It got huge incentives and tax breaks to locate here. In addition, it's not only non union, but, a full third of its workers are temp. employees with limited benefits. They've already gotten their Christmas present from Toyota - All the temps are scheduled to be laid off around December 6. I have no problem with the Feds helping the domestic manufacturers level the playing field.
If an "American" manufacturer wanted to build right next door, they would also get "huge incentives and tax breaks". I am been in manufacturing (not auto) for 15 years, and all of the 3 companies (USA based) got tax breaks and incentives (not permanent, though).
Also, my American companies have used Temps. Reason - they are TEMPORARY. We don't hire until we are very sure that we won't have to lay them off again. I would be surprised if a third of the engine plants are really temp - I'd like to see some facts, because our plant it varies from 0 to 15%, but many people in the area say we are using 25-40% - not true. My plants are non-Union, and the UAW has tried to get in - our workers have voted it down
Buying American is tough these days. Many of the so-called American cars' total cost is not spent in the USA. Camry/Accord vs. Fusion/Milan - Camry/Accord has more NA part content than Fulan (50% NA parts), and Camry built in USA vs. Mexico. Yes, the Camcord profits go back to Japan (5% or less of the total). So where is the other 95% of the cost spent? Well, if you have a car built in the USA with 75% NA parts (Camry), you spend locally for most of the parts, all assembly wages and costs (overheads, incl. taxes, insurance, etc). Don't forget the utility bills, factory maintenance & repair, lawn care, cost to build the plant, etc.
Just trying to point out that buying American is not as easy as buying a car with a USA name plate on it - you have to look beyond that and then decide what is most important.
GM can level its own playing field by cutting a bunch of dead weight brands like Saab, Hummer (obviously), and especially their 20 year money pit, Saturn.
Thankfully, Ford has realized this early on when they dissolved the PAG group and selling Jag and Land Rover off why they still had an inkling of value left in them. i bet if times got really tough, they would dissolve Mercury as well...
A reporter from a large local newspaper would like to speak with consumers who have ruled our purchasing a GM or Chrysler vehicle due to doubt of the company’s future. If you are a consumer who is not considering a GM or Chrysler vehicle, please respond to ctalati@edmunds.com with your daytime contact information no later than Monday, November 17th.
State and local governments give any big employer tax breaks to enter into their local and hire. Nothing is uneven here - period. As for temporary and non-union work, all I can say is that they are surviving, and employing and building a company, while the opposite is true of a dead company. If a company can not let go of employees to lean-out when markets slow, and has to pay for more than is normal just to satisfy contracts, that golden goose gets cooked = no company - no employees. The government / taxpayers should only help GM and Ford, if the employees agree to help keep their company alive. And in the end, all need to realise just who they do work for. The CEO down to the janitor at GM and Ford work for you, the customer. Sure, they can work for the Union, or work for the fat paycheck, or whatever, but in the end it all boils down to the consumer. Somewhere, long time ago, too many forgot just of whom they really do work for.
Hi Karen, Well that would be about everyone that values their money. Any reasonable person would wait and see just which company, or companies will survive, be it Ford (not on your list?), or Ford and GM, or none of the above. As it appears today, Chrysler is toast, IMHO. What new product looks promising now to add spark? Not, as in no way saying a 300 or Charger is a bad car. But really now, what do you think of say Sebring, or Caliber??? The Sprinter really seems to sell well, but is that not a Mercedes? Or are those for profit only for Dodge? Ford has a good line of car now, with more from Europe to arrive as new cars here. The Mustang will be more refined by 2010 model out early in the year cycle, the Fusion is pretty reliable and not bad looking, and the small cars of Europe look promising. GM has a few glimmers of hope cars too. Not sure if the Camaro is ready to go on time, as it is of course already a few years late in coming. If GM could cut the line of cars by a half to a third, as in those which are best of breed for GM, it would help. Dealerships though would want to see the money though for buyout time, as labels go by the way.
It is all rather sad.
As for the article, could you simply beg that writer to show a little mercy and forget the whole matter. Really now, bring up the subject will only serve to make people think and not buy one of the big three cars, thus throwing gasoline on a rather large fire to begin with. Let the buyer beware -Loren
...the demise of GM and or Chrysler might actually stoke my desire to buy one of their vehicles while I still can! I would run out and get an absolutely loaded Buick Lucerne CXS V-8 and a Chrysler 300-C SRT8 and they'd be the last new cars I would ever buy for life. It might be financial suicide, but what good is my money if there's nothing left that I want to buy? It is morally impossible for me to buy a foreign car. It would be like me renouncing God or betraying my country.
A friend of the family who is an employee of the local engine plant and a temp passed the info to me. He's out looking for a job. I won't know if his info is factual until the bad news hits our local paper. Because I personally got burned with bad Honda and Nissan vehicles, I'm skeptical about their virtues, and, certainly won't pay a hefty premium price to get one of them.
That'[s what I thought as well. Had a 79 Honda Accord, bought used, that went almost 200K before she died. I got a good bit more affluent in the 90's and bought a brand new Accord. The car was a nightmare - one of the worst vehicles I ever owned, and, I dumped it for a Chrysler at 20K miles. Then, in the late 90's, my daugthter talked me into buying her a low mileage used Civic to take to college. The car was a money pit, and, at 86K miles, burned oil so bad that we sold it. My son's Nissan Sentra (Late 90's model) was a money pit as well. Various things failed and were fixed, until the day the Nissan pucked its distributor to the tune of $1000 + the tow bill. That's why, when I'm shopping for a car, and Saturn smokes the Asians by $4K to $10K + on a comparably equipped midsizer - I gave GM a shot again, and, bought an Aura XE 3.5. It was too good a car to pass up because of GM's past sins.
You do not pay a premium to buy a Japan make of car, in general. Sure the Lexus line seems a bit overdone price wise, but then again Cadillac, pre-discounting, is well overpriced. Yes, it is true that anything mechanical be it a Japan or Domestic make can have problems. Some are just more consistent at building in problems than others. Nissan, back in the Datsun years here in the States, was just do darn reliable it was amazing. Of course, I being in CA did not worry about the rust issue. In snow country, forget it!
One of the many problems of selling say a little domestic car is that cars like the Cobalt, after waiting for a decade or two, came out as just old looking. Heck, the Cavalier was a smoother line. And they did not really make the mark for MPG when introduced. Sort of like the intro of a car destined to be an also-ran.
Now in the old days, say a Nova was very different than a VW, or a little tinny Japan car. It was an alternative to get style, more steel around you, and perhaps even more overall quality. The World changed, but the big three somehow got caught up in making cars which looked sorta more Japanese, sold for a few bucks less than Japan makes, came in third to fifth in every car comparo on car review mags, as an also-ran car. You can not survive with such. -Loren
I tried to buy a Saturn Aura XR, but they did not match both the discount price and trade-in price, so I ended up with a Honda Accord SE '07. Simply cost net-net, less to buy. Consists of 85% US content. I have had it in for repairs, so no it is not 100% trouble free. My early 80's Datsun Nissan was bought used, and was 95% trouble free - headlamp needed replacing at a cost of something like $17. It had an inline fuse go on the air conditioning. Had a Corolla '98 and it was around 90% or better trouble free for 7 years. Have had good luck with the Miatas I have bought, so I may consider a Mazda car some day, or a Ford/Mazda car like the Fusion, if Ford is still around. Actually, I kinda like the looks of a Mustang, and I think they are pretty much trouble free. Not the best car for transporting more than one passenger however
I like the performance of a Honda, and the road feel and all. As for trouble free, I think not. I will see how the next couple of years go, and if it has no more issues, then I will rate her an average or better in respect to trouble free, a sort of 80% car. Good power and good enough gas mileage with the V6. Aura's are very good for HP in the XR, a little less width inside though, with slightly high door window sills, and a silly foot emergency brake. The six speed tranny on the Aura is good; no make that very good. But the trade-in allowance was going to suck up the $1,500 off on the Aura, so I moved on.
Comments
Try telling that to all the rich A$$H@&*S who've ruined the old car hobby
My opinion is that Detroit needs to get out of the 'mainstream' car business, concentrate on those low tech high profit trucks and SUVs, of course and maybe keep a minimal presence in the specialty car markets e.g. the Vette, Mustang, Camaro etc All this would require a lot of downsizing, which I think would run contrary to those UAW contracts and other expectations. In any case, quite painful and a lot of perfectly good folks out of work
. Heck if gas stays at $2 for any prolonged period of time, they might be able to sell those behemoths again, make some money and sign ridiculous labor contracts again in the false euphorias of some black ink. Detroit hasn't been a real factor in the car business anyway, for a number of years now - unless, of course, you are into renting cars
If they wanted to sell SUV's into high cost fuel markets, they should have targeted affluent only. Perhaps that will be one area they can manage because $55K for a hybrid SUV has a very small customer base and shrinking extremely fast.
Mainstream SUV's need to make 25 MPG minimum to sell briskly even particularly when the economy turns positive.
Regards,
OW
I guess significant can mean different things but GM has over 60 plants in NA (powertrain, sheet metal, assembly).
3 are in Canada
3 are in Mexico
Now with all the announced closings this may change slightly. In fact GM has announced closing a truck assembly plant in both Mexico and Canada.
And I might add GM does sell vehicles in both countries, so building a few vehicles where they sell them would be nice.
http://media.gm.com/manufacturing/facilities.html
3 are in Canada
3 are in Mexico
Well, if that's the case GM must have dozens of NA plants that are doing nothing. Just surveying Chevrolet, the following cars/trucks are assembled in Canada: Korea, or Mexico - Aveo (of course), Avalanche, Equinox, HHR, Impala, Monte Carlo, and Silverado, a substantial portion of Chevy's overall volume. and a number will increase as those plants you're talking about are allowed to close. That is significant particularily for a manufacturer that claims to be 'American'.
Just a guess - but it would seem to me that since Toyota built that $1 billion dollar truck plant in Texas, and in consideration of all the high volume vehicles (Camry etc.) that they have been building in Kentucky for years that the car/truck buyer is more likely to end up with a US made Toyota than a Chevy. By necessity, GM and the other 2) will end up being the same international cos. that the others are - but in the same vein should be embarassed to be calling themselves 'American'' - something that it plainly not the case now and likely even less so in the too near future. The slogan ought to be: Buy American and put another American out of work!
I'm not sure that means you're more likely to get a Toyota built in USA than a Chevrolet.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Aveo is overseas, equinox in canada, HHR in mexico, Impala in Canada (with Camaro, MC is gone). Full size trucks will not be made in Canada any longer and are still being made in Mexico. Impala also going to be taken out of Oshawa. I think you got all of them!
So the Camaro (and future Zeta based vehicles) and Equinox will be built in Canada. The HHR and some full size trucks in Mexico ( and there are still plenty of full size truck plants here in the US). The HHR does have a limited future. I have no news on the replacement after the Cruz comes out. So that is 5 models out of maybe 50+ others.
Maybe so, but missing my point - 'Heartbeat of America' Chevrolet is no longer any different that big bad ole Toyota in terms of actually producing cars in this country and may in fact be worse if you consider actual # vehicles built in the US.
And as you note, the situation (producing 'American' cars outside of the US) is only getting worse and not only for Chevrolet/GM only.
Today the cars such as CTS and Vette are fine, no doubt, but the damage has been done. Perhaps, if the Unions want to hold on to jobs and GM, they would agree to a pay cut or layoffs when required without pay, and to pay health insurance, before GM goes bankrupt in December. Sure the government can step in and print more money, but what then???
Sadly, the "best" (premium) Oldsmobiles of 1987 were not necessarily the best when it came to quality. I'd imagine the most durable models were the Cutlass Supreme sedan/coupe, and the Custom Cruiser wagon, both of which had been in production for years, with plenty of time to get most of the bugs worked out.
1973 was a good year for Oldsmobile, though. Probably not a crappy one in the bunch that year, although those lower body "skegs" on the mid- and full-sized cars tended to bruise up easily and also seemed to rust pretty quickly. But hey, it was the 70's...EVERYTHING rusted!
Detroit, particularily GM, has shown a great talent for rebadging ostensibly identical cars. I wouldn't think there was any real differences between you Buick and the other gentlemen's Olds. Assembly quality better at Buick, possibly, but more likely just luck of the draw - or a tribute to your conscientious routine maintainence.
Consistency of quality of manufacture has been a Detroit problem for years, witness what has happened to Toyota recently (at least according to CR) some early problems with a few isolated models (the Camry V6 being one) have been corrected all within about 1 model year and that car along with some others are now all rated superior in that regard. With Detroit this kind of thing is the exception, not the rule, and this remains as true today as it was back in the 80s..
On the subject of quality though, back in the late 80's and 90's, the Buick LeSabre consistently won awards from JD Powers for initial quality and such. But you never heard anything about the FWD Olds 88 or Pontiac Bonneville, which were the same car. When it comes to things like the engine, transmission, a/c, etc, though, they should all be the same for a given model year. Sometimes minor things can make a difference with those JD Powers surveys, though. Pontiacs back then tended to have junky interiors with lots of little pieces that would easily break and fall off. Buicks were much better in regard, and I'm guessing Oldsmobiles were, too. So it's possible that it was just little piddly defects that worked against the Bonneville, and possibly the 88 as well. If a Bonneville has three pieces of trim fall off, that probably counts as three defects, but if a Taurus dumps its transmission, but is fine otherwise, that's only one defect.
It's also kind of curious that the Electra/Park Ave never got all that highly praised for its quality, in the same light that the LeSabre did.
Oh, on that subject, something just popped into my mind. In my old 1985 Consumer Guide, they have a test of a LeSabre and a Delta 88, the last of the RWD models. They rated the LeSabre fairly high for its fit and finish, paint quality, interior, etc. But they trashed the Delta 88! I wonder if the LeSabre and Delta 88 were built on separate assembly lines? If so, that could have something to do with it. Another possibility is that quality was inconsistent enough in those days that maybe they just got ahold of a good Buick, but a sloppy Olds?
I'm sort of going through the same thing with the heat pump I had installed back in September. I made the decision back over the summer, when home heating oil hit $5.60+ per gallon. Now, I wouldn't be surprised if it was down under $3.00 per gallon. By the time you factor in all the ductwork, and the electrical upgrades my old house required, that sucker set me back $12,650. It's going to take a long time to recoup that initial cost. I averaged about 450 gallons of oil per year, although last winter was a bit mild. Plus I did some insulating and sealing, which helped a bit. My initial estimate was that my electric bill might go up around $500-600 total for the year because of the heat pump. It'll raise my bills in the winter, but in the summer, it'll probably lower them because the heat pump should be more efficient than the three window units I had been using. Also, the service contract for the furnace was running about $200 per year, and was going to go up to $300.
So initially, I was figuring the thing might save me about $2200-2500 per year. More if oil prices rose. Or breakeven in 5-6 years, max. It might take longer now. But at least I'll have the comfort of central air throughout the whole house. Plus, now I have heat upstairs. The old oil furnace only had ducts downstairs, so heat rising up the stairwell was all that warmed up the upstairs, plus occasional space heater use. And I'll never again have to worry about turning off the window a/c in the kitchen if I want to use the microwave, for fear of tripping the circuit breaker. :P
And while fuel prices are suddenly low again (we would've bitched about these prices back in the summer of 2004), I'm sure it's only a matter of time before they go up.
I just hope people don't get too short-sighted and start dumping their hybrids for guzzlers again!
The best is the $70K Caddy Hybrid Escalade...why bother? :confuse:
Regards,
OW
$2000 per year in gas vs. $4000. Lots more in actual savings than a Camry vs. Camry Hybrid.
I calculate the difference at a lower $1,300/year savingsand at $12K price difference, 9.4 years to break even. (20 MPG vs. 12 MPG).
Not very effective but at least is a shade greener. :sick:
Regards,
OW
Going from about 10 MPG to 20 MPG on a huge SUV saves a whole bunch more fuel than the same on a Camry vs. Camry Hybrid. That is why someone should bother. Americans are going to buy the vehicles they want when they can.
I hope the suckers are lining up to buy SUVs again...these gas prices are an anomaly, and the same people will regain their victim mentality when reality sets back in.
Tony Sapienza, a spokesman for GM production, said Friday that the Arlington overtime is not related to any future announcements on cuts and closures.
The plant builds full-size SUVs such as the Chevrolet Tahoe and GMC Yukon, a segment that has been in steep decline all year. But GM has offered large incentives on big pickups and SUVs, and sales have increased some as gas prices have eased.
"It is purely market-driven and could be related to a drop in supply because of our employee discount sales event," Mr. Sapienza said of the overtime decision.
In addition, full-size SUVs are some of GM's more profitable vehicles at a time when the company is reportedly burning through $1 billion a month in cash.
Wendi Sabo, a spokeswoman for the Arlington plant, said the factory's 2,500 workers will begin working overtime Nov. 3 and continue through the end of the year.
The plant's two shifts will each work one hour of overtime a day Monday through Thursday and a half-hour on Friday. They will also work two Saturdays in November and one in December.
At 75 years of age, I could really give a hoot, but our kids will have a hard way to go in achieving wealth..
Last week I did buy a 09 Mustang Bullitt in Detroit which is in a garage near the motorcity until I pick it up . The little green car is sitting next to a red 08 Chrysler 300, Hemi.. It was a good deal, nothing great, but gives me the opportunity for a quick breakin schedule starting from Detroit to Cinny, Ohio on I-75 with speeds between 50-70mph and then 70-90 to Venice, Fla..
I really doubt if our giddy liberal party will allow Detroit to build these fun cars in the future, for they will be demanding cars designed to run on corn, sugar cane, weeds, manure, tree limbs, hydrogen, butane, or soybeans..
After Obama takes office, gas pricing will zoom up again..I figure that to drive the GPGT or the Bullitt will run about $6000/yr in gas costs..but there will be plenty of gas..
The [non-permissible content removed] stateside plants will be unionized soon after the Obama starts his term, but wages will not really balloon..Ensuring future votes..
Enjoy your little 4-banger foreign cars or maybe it's a hybrid, good move, for I need the gas you save to keep my two gas hogs running..
If you get laidoff due to the recession, cheer up for you may qualify for welfare under the new govt plan..Change??????, about all you will have left in your pocket..
Slice the union pay and get the right to run the plant..Let management's pay stand for the automotive end is a tough game..for somebody has to make decisions..The union is liberal, their game is looking for the the bad side, confusion and complaining is their goal..Spent 6 yrs running a manufacturing plant near Flint and yes, we had the UAW. We had the right to run the plant, the Big3 gave away that right..I have seen paycheck stubs on janitors making !00k/yr. in the late 90s..
The Big3 have been burning money for years, and the Govt has finally screwed GM, Ford, and Chrysler with it's ecology stance and lack of domestic oil..The whole scenerio has been in play for years..
The whack jobs pushing the "Global Climate" mantra will stiffle the country for they have a good start, and no quick fix is available..Just BS by the volumes..Take a look at the mortgage mess and the history of Freddie and Fannie, DEMOCRATS IN ACTION..Can't wait until they get their hands on HEALTH CARE.. NO HEALTH CARE IS COMING..
EU = EUSSR, NAU - NAUSSR...maybe it's destiny :lemon:
Of course during the better years of great profit, the same three enjoyed trampling those which got in there way, killing off the competition. The unions gladly accepted wages which were very generous. The management made wrong decisions costing billions, yet more money always came along in time to make light of it. They always knew what the customer wanted, so somehow you were to adjust to latest trend they though up. Over one hundred years time to retool for next great generation of car, yet the taxpayer now needs to chip in some extra bucks to retool -- what??? Where, or where has the greatness of American engineering and industry gone? :sick: It was not so long ago in history when the USA was top in the game.
Yes, a loan is not a bad thing. Yes, keep American jobs. Yes, the union needs to be in on the plan and do their part by taking some deep cuts for a few years. Save the company - save your jobs. If management doesn't perform well in the same period of time as union workers suffer wage wise, then fire them. But by all means take deep cuts now, with the promise of earing what ever a fair sum per hour is say three to five years from now.
I could live with them surviving as a bit player in the auto industry, but this practice of subsidizing substandard, irrelevant, undesired, and uncompetitive cars has got to stop.
Regards:
Oldengineer
Also, my American companies have used Temps. Reason - they are TEMPORARY. We don't hire until we are very sure that we won't have to lay them off again. I would be surprised if a third of the engine plants are really temp - I'd like to see some facts, because our plant it varies from 0 to 15%, but many people in the area say we are using 25-40% - not true. My plants are non-Union, and the UAW has tried to get in - our workers have voted it down
Buying American is tough these days. Many of the so-called American cars' total cost is not spent in the USA. Camry/Accord vs. Fusion/Milan - Camry/Accord has more NA part content than Fulan (50% NA parts), and Camry built in USA vs. Mexico. Yes, the Camcord profits go back to Japan (5% or less of the total). So where is the other 95% of the cost spent? Well, if you have a car built in the USA with 75% NA parts (Camry), you spend locally for most of the parts, all assembly wages and costs (overheads, incl. taxes, insurance, etc). Don't forget the utility bills, factory maintenance & repair, lawn care, cost to build the plant, etc.
Just trying to point out that buying American is not as easy as buying a car with a USA name plate on it - you have to look beyond that and then decide what is most important.
Thankfully, Ford has realized this early on when they dissolved the PAG group and selling Jag and Land Rover off why they still had an inkling of value left in them. i bet if times got really tough, they would dissolve Mercury as well...
Well that would be about everyone that values their money. Any reasonable person would wait and see just which company, or companies will survive, be it Ford (not on your list?), or Ford and GM, or none of the above. As it appears today, Chrysler is toast, IMHO. What new product looks promising now to add spark? Not, as in no way saying a 300 or Charger is a bad car. But really now, what do you think of say Sebring, or Caliber??? The Sprinter really seems to sell well, but is that not a Mercedes? Or are those for profit only for Dodge? Ford has a good line of car now, with more from Europe to arrive as new cars here. The Mustang will be more refined by 2010 model out early in the year cycle, the Fusion is pretty reliable and not bad looking, and the small cars of Europe look promising. GM has a few glimmers of hope cars too. Not sure if the Camaro is ready to go on time, as it is of course already a few years late in coming. If GM could cut the line of cars by a half to a third, as in those which are best of breed for GM, it would help. Dealerships though would want to see the money though for buyout time, as labels go by the way.
It is all rather sad.
As for the article, could you simply beg that writer to show a little mercy and forget the whole matter. Really now, bring up the subject will only serve to make people think and not buy one of the big three cars, thus throwing gasoline on a rather large fire to begin with. Let the buyer beware
-Loren
Regards:
Oldengineer
Say it's not so... I thought everyone believed they were perfect and had NO flaws, EVER. :sick:
>certainly won't pay a hefty premium price
But if you pay lots extra and get a bit more after a few years selling them, it is supposed to cost less to own than a ordinary car? :P
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Regards:
OldCEM
One of the many problems of selling say a little domestic car is that cars like the Cobalt, after waiting for a decade or two, came out as just old looking. Heck, the Cavalier was a smoother line. And they did not really make the mark for MPG when introduced. Sort of like the intro of a car destined to be an also-ran.
Now in the old days, say a Nova was very different than a VW, or a little tinny Japan car. It was an alternative to get style, more steel around you, and perhaps even more overall quality. The World changed, but the big three somehow got caught up in making cars which looked sorta more Japanese, sold for a few bucks less than Japan makes, came in third to fifth in every car comparo on car review mags, as an also-ran car. You can not survive with such.
-Loren
I like the performance of a Honda, and the road feel and all. As for trouble free, I think not. I will see how the next couple of years go, and if it has no more issues, then I will rate her an average or better in respect to trouble free, a sort of 80% car. Good power and good enough gas mileage with the V6. Aura's are very good for HP in the XR, a little less width inside though, with slightly high door window sills, and a silly foot emergency brake. The six speed tranny on the Aura is good; no make that very good. But the trade-in allowance was going to suck up the $1,500 off on the Aura, so I moved on.