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Have been a subscriber to CR for many years as well as subscriber to various auto magazines and also a reader of Edmunds vehicle test reports. I find that CR findings on road tests and evaluations of vehicle attributes (fit, finish, interior, ergonomics, etc) is not out of line with conclusions reached by others.
Help me out here. What GM vehicles use a China built engine other than the old Equinox?
The Traverse only uses the HFV6 3.6L. It is made in 3 plants. Flint, St. Catherines and Australia.
How do you figure that? The Wall street, banking and Insurance guys have conned US out of $700 billion so far. They will probably get another $Trillion. The Boobs running GM have only extorted $13.4 billion and most of that is in question or may end up back in the treasury as taxes. I say they all should be tried as felons and get the guillotine.
or may end up back in the treasury as taxes.
But I also allow for some slack in my definition. Product creation is what really counts. That’s what generates the greatest value for the economy, much more than assembly of the vehicle. To their credit Toyota, Honda and Nissan are doing some of their product creation, at least with some of their truck products, in the US. Hyundai’s getting there.
Even if they repatriate the profits of those trucks back to Japan or Korea, it’s still worth having them do their product creation here. Roughly 90% of all the value created by creating those products will stay in the US. Conversely, if that vehicle was mostly created in Japan or Korea or where ever, I don’t consider it “American” even if it is assembled in the USA.
The same goes for a GM, Ford or Chrysler product that’s assembled in Canada or Mexico. As long as the product creation took place in the US, the overwhelming amount of value generated by it will stay in the US. So for me, even if a vehicle like that is assembled north or south of the border, it’s still American.
By his definition, a product could be theoretically "created" by one person here, making say $200k, and that's better than employing 50 workers on a line at $50k? Who exactly is this guy and what credentials does he pretend to have?
I have a much simpler definition. An American made car is one that is designed, engineered, researched, tested, and assembled by Americans using at least 80% U.S. Sourced components. Right now I doubt ANY car fits that definition...oh well, too bad.
The Fusion Hybrid is continuing get great press. Hopefully it will help turn things around. I may rip on the D3 for their ineptitude, but Mullaly may finally be changing things at Ford for the better.
define "creation" please
is a vehicle which was conceived, designed, engineered, developed
Now I guess someone could make the assumption that one person could do the above but I think he was talking about companies.
And in the end your definition completely agrees with his except you added in the 80% US content. Good luck with that.
Well, how American is it if it basically shows up on our shores as a kit and we insert tab A into slot B?
Oh you still haven't linked to the article or the author, please do so I can proceed to make fun of him or her. :shades:
http://www.autolinedetroit.tv/journal/?p=2206
This is their home page
http://www.autolinedetroit.tv/show/1306
About John McElroy
John McElroy is the host of the television program “Autoline Detroit,” which covers all aspects of the automotive industry. It is a weekly half-hour discussion program featuring top automotive executives and journalists that provides a window into the latest developments and thinking in the industry. It airs nationally on Sunday mornings at 7 AM on the SPEED cable network and at 10:30 AM on Sundays on Detroit Public Television. The show can be seen online at www.autolinedetroit.tv.
steve: It is amusing that so many companies leave the US for Bermuda or wherever because of our apparently high tax rates...I fail to see, unlike Joe Biden, why it is patriotic for anyone, corp or person, to pay any more taxes than necessary...
But Congress, rather than lower the corp tax rate to 10% or 5% to bring companies back to the US, simply grandstand and complain that they are leaving...just how stupid can our Congress be???
Why not match the corp tax rate of Bermuda or the Caymans and see what happens???...they can't lose any money, as they have already lost it ALL by losing the companies to outside the US...it might work...
Don't understand your logic or what exactly you are talking about. The Toyota Avalon (and the Camry FTM) were both designed and engineered (created?) in California, and are assembled from parts made all over the US. Over 90%^ US content parts and labor because they are also assembled in Kentucky. The new Tundra also US designed , exported from here, to the tune of 97% US parts and labor, assembly at a brand new factory in Texas. There are very very few US branded vehicles that will come close to any of these vehicles in terms of 'made in USA' by any definition.
My question for you though is this: how can there be any appreciable economic impact from conception and/or engineering when we have literally thousands of worker salaries being spent into those economies in Kentucky and Texas, and that doesn't even include the billions these manfacturers are spending building plants over here. And yes, we haven't mentioned Honda in Ohio, Nissan in Tenn., and/or MB and Hyundai in Alabama, yet. Economically, I contend, where a particular vehicle is assembled, and where those parts it is assembled with come from all has far more impact than simply where it was designed/engineered???
But I can take your data to task because it is incorrect.
The Toyota Avalon (and the Camry FTM) were both designed and engineered (created?) in California, and are assembled from parts made all over the US. Over 90%^ US content parts and labor because they are also assembled in Kentucky.
No the Avalon has less than 75% US content.
http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story.jsp?section=top&subject=ami&story=amMade0808-
Now I would agree with the trucks. Toyota has been doing a lot of their engineering here because their trucks really do not sell elsewhere. Good for them.
The Tundra is somewhere south of 80% US content.
Looks like Ford builit a car that beats foreeign brands such as Camry and Altima.
Some factories are more efficient than others, but I bet if you ran the numbers at CR or JD Power for cars built for the NA market, the county of origin will have little to do with how the cars are screwed together.
Paying a little more for a product is not the American way. :shades:
If Ford, in this case, could get out from under the UAW then I think the answer to this is plainly yes and probably without any price premium. Why? because the Japanese are already doing it in those same states.
Recently read a side by side test BTW in one of the national car mags. that says the new Fusion hybrids FE estimates are inflated, and the car actually returns less MPG than the Camry Hybrid. No matter though, the Fusion in whatever form is still a feather in Ford's cap, except that when you go buy one you are still sending a bunch of money to Mexico.
Submit that if you are motivated to support the Anerican economy, however the best thing to do in this case is to spend your $ on that Camry or that Altima, and not the Ford.
your figures are parts content only I believe and makes no consideration for relative values of the local labor
Sorry, you are incorrect. I gave the link. It states:
Cars.com's American-Made Index rates vehicles built and bought in the U.S. Factors include sales, where the car's parts are made and whether the car is assembled in the U.S.
I know you really want to believe and will continue to make statements that have no factual base. But this is the internet and anyone can say anything.
The economic impacts of all the US sourced labor (how many times a worker's salary might conceivably be spent in the local (and national) economies for example) far more important than the actual value, number, or even location of the source of parts anyway IMO.
Again you can say anything here. Lets just take the premise that either Toyota or Ford stops selling vehicles in the US. Which will effect the employee base, taxes, etc.
Toyota closes their four assembly plants (20k employees) and their engineering center (3000 employees) here in the states but the engineering and development, which is primarily in Japan, continues to work in Japan for the rest of the world sales. We would have a job loss at the plants of non skilled, low wage workers and some more at the small engineering centers where they employ high wage technical workers. Total US employees: 36,000
Ford closes it's 12 assembly plants and their extensive engineering centers and proving grounds with almost 100,000 employees. We lose many more plant workers and a huge number of high wage technical workers. Ford Global would also shut down and the US would lose the profits made from overseas concerns.
Openly moving production from Japan to save money is a pretty astonishing move in a highly nationalistic business and political culture. GM's supporters had a shred of a point when they noted that the entire worldwide auto industry was in a downturn--no car maker is immune from the need for credit to finance auto purchases. Though only a shred of a point, because the Big Three's legacy of management and labor screw-ups have left it in little shape to survive the downturn, and unless excess capacity goes somewhere, the global auto industry will continue to suffer for the indefinite future.
Perhaps suspecting this, the government is considering putting GM and Chrysler into bankruptcy. That's because Debtor-in-Possession financing (DIP) is the first thing that gets paid back as the company emerges from bankruptcy. The US government is making sure it doesn't get stiffed to pay other creditors.
I expect that this is just a threat to get banks like JP Morgan and Goldman Sachs to let the government cut in line for whatever cash the automakers generate. The government doesn't really want to hand over the automakers to a bankruptcy judge, who will, among other things, void the company's contracts with the unions and start over from a baseline of zero. Since this is exactly what the $18 billion was supposed to prevent, it's hard to see them turning around and making it happen themselves.
The real question is what the banks do. Even if the judge did make government debt senior to theirs, it's possible they'd be better off in a bankruptcy. Unless things turn around soon, continuing operations just mean burning cash. As long as they're fairly senior, they might be better off taking the money and running.
If one thinks things will turn around SOON, take your head out of the sand. Seven days to INFAMY.
Regards,
OW
Uhh, what is it that you're smoking again? Those are some very popular models. And Mitsu, Suzuki, and Kia haven't gone anywhere.
Regards,
OW
This was also before the December shakeup hit, so maybe they were keeping the spending to a minimum. :shades:
The Genesis exhibit was mobbed? Not bad for a knockoff of a Toyota Avalon.
I know this is off topic but I can't resist.
Avalon = Front drive Snoozer
Genesis = Rear drive burner
Not even close to a Toyota anything. Maybe a Mercedes knockoff, but a pretty decent one.
Hate to say it, but the Buick display was almost as dead as the Oldsmobile and Plymouth displays! :P
On the other hand, the Genesis WAS the Hyundai display the day I went. Interesting tactic.
Took a nap after a long drive to Carlisle!
Regards,
OW
The Genesis feels more like a Lexus knock-off to me, much more Asian than European.
The point however remains - it's a knock off of something - but apparently, a darn good one.
I agree, Lemko - it may "resemble" a Benz, but that's as far as it goes. What it is, is a really really nice Hyundai.
Can't be a Toyota/Lexus product, because it doesn't have a GM interior. :shades:
Now if you'll excuse me, I'd like to get back to my "telephone pole"
I'm interested to see what residuals are in a couple years. I don't doubt it will have good reliability, but it might end up being a much greater bargain in 24 months.
You must be pretty picky not to like any of these. What do you drive anyway? The FX45 is absolutely the most satisfying vehicle I've ever owned, and I've owned a lot of them.
Ford didn't have a Fiesta on display this year, and GM had the VOLT in a dark corner in the back. It was weird.
know this is off topic but I can't resist.
Avalon = Front drive Snoozer
Genesis = Rear drive burner
Not even close to a Toyota anything. Maybe a Mercedes knockoff, but a pretty decent one.
I was really impressed with the Genesis. Its going to eat Toyota's lunch. I would like to see it compared with the CTS and G35 as well.
I really liked the CTS coupe and sedan. If I was in that kind of place financially, I would consider that, but alas, I am still at the Yugo/Chevette/Excel level.
Seriously? Hows that going so far since it has been out for a while now? Many converts?
Having auto journalist compare it to Lexus is one thing. It's another to see people trading their old lexus on one. I don't expect anyone will buy one that could seriously consider a lexus in the first place.
May be a great car. But Hyundai buyers will be the main people purchasing these is my guess.
My wife likes the looks of the Genesis. She bought one of the first LS400s to come to the states. I don't think she would buy another Lexus. Does not like the current styles that Lexus offers. She would be more apt to go back to her roots buying MB. I hate four door sedans and she does not like 2 doors so we compromise and buy SUVs. The Made in America ML320 CDI is now at the top of the list.
Having auto journalist compare it to Lexus is one thing. It's another to see people trading their old lexus on one. I don't expect anyone will buy one that could seriously consider a lexus in the first place.
Is someone in the market for an LS460 or the S500 going to pick up a Genesis or 3 or 4? No. Is someone looking at a GS or ES (rolling retirement home) or even an IS going to look? I think so.
The Genesis is a lot of fun for not an excessive amount of coin. I am also curious to see how much the Taurus SHO affects thing.
Regards,
OW
One reason for the jump in January, after a dismal December, appears to be Hyundai's new marketing strategy of promising to let buyers return their vehicles, at no cost in most cases and with no penalty to their credit rating, if they lose their job or income within a year.
"To their credit, they struck at the core of what's bothering people, and that's obviously uncertainty," said Jeremy Anwyl, chief executive of Edmunds.com, a Web site that gives car-buying advice to consumers. "It's just the fear and the uncertainty that's holding people back."
Anwyl said the program, Hyundai Assurance, would probably lead to similar deals from some rivals after they see that Hyundai's offer is resonating with consumers.
"It gives them a whole new audience - people for whom it would have never popped up on their shopping list," he said.
Regards,
OW