Buying American Cars What Does It Mean?

lemko

Did you count everybody? How about at least 12 million illegal immigrants?

dieselone

Did you count everybody? How about at least 12 million illegal immigrants?

Um, I didn't do the counting. It was a government report, so God only knows if it's remotely accurate.

lemko

Of course if everybody knew the REAL unemployment rate, there would be blood in the streets! :surprise:

greatlakesjr

So I don't see why a failed enterprise such as GM, with most of its manufacturing outside the USA, who has sucked $60B out of the US taxpayer to produce still too many mediocre vehicles, is a company we should celebrate, or defend, or desire their Canadian car sales rather than Toyota's US car sales. Tell me why GM is so important that we support a failure that brings less economic potential to the table than the successful Toyota, or Honda, or Hyundai, or Subaru, or BMW who make vehicles in this country

Here’s my admittedly biased (I live in Michigan, I’ve seen the fallout firsthand from the union mindset) version of why that is so: GM uses UAW workers and in the minds of the politically correct circle (usually with a leftist/socialist slant) that’s what we need to “celebrate”. They are All-American workers and only labeled as such because the intelligentsia/leftists say so. Those non-union workers in those non-union shops in those ugly right-to-work states don’t pay forced union dues to enrich the coffers of PAC’s that support those who determine what is All-American or not. Never mind that those non-union shops make decent, best-selling products that employ a growing number of people. By goodness, we need union people making those cars or we shouldn’t make cars at all.

dieselone

Back then, a layoff meant you had a good shot of returning to your job when things got better. Today, there really is no such thing as a "layoff." You are essentially fired! Back then, you had a reasonable shot at getting as good or a better paying job in case you lost your old one.

Not from where I was from. The steel mills reduced their work force by probably 1/2 from the late 70's and early 80's, most never got called back. All of my uncles lost their factory jobs back then and were never called back. My FIL was laid two years beginning in '82 and was one of the last in his shop to get called back.

Man, if my outlook was as negative as some on these boards I'd have to start taking medication. I still see lots of opportunities, sure things are bad now, but they will get better. I still don't know many that have been laid off, most I know that have gotten the boot have been able to actually find better jobs.

I do know a few Teamster operators that are having a tough time, but they are gradually getting called back for work.

tlong

Here’s my admittedly biased (I live in Michigan, I’ve seen the fallout firsthand from the union mindset) version of why that is so: GM uses UAW workers and in the minds of the politically correct circle (usually with a leftist/socialist slant) that’s what we need to “celebrate”. They are All-American workers and only labeled as such because the intelligentsia/leftists say so. Those non-union workers in those non-union shops in those ugly right-to-work states don’t pay forced union dues to enrich the coffers of PAC’s that support those who determine what is All-American or not. Never mind that those non-union shops make decent, best-selling products that employ a growing number of people. By goodness, we need union people making those cars or we shouldn’t make cars at all.

Agreed. IMHO the "buy American" mantra is really a disguise for their strong pro-union stance. They are just hiding union activism behind the patriotism. When you analyze it realistically, you are actually benefiting the US MORE if you buy the US-assembled vehicles. You are just not benefiting the UNIONS, which is their real agenda.

anythngbutgm

Where's my "thumbsup" emoticon!!!

dieselone

I was a kid growing up during the 70's, so I remember the late 70's and early 80's well. I still remember watching TV and seeing the steel workers bash Toyotas and Datsuns with sledge hammers. Funny, they should have been beating on domestic product, if they would have been making competitive cars maybe the steel mills wouldn't have been losing business.

All I can say is my brother and sister, my wife's sisters, along with my cousins and peers, are far better off today than our parents and uncles were by far.

Heck my parent's couldn't afford more than one car and I lived in one room apartment for years until my dad's grandma gave him a down payment for our first house. I guess it all comes down to where and how you grew up and where you are now.

My dad's dad was a disabled Vet from WWII. Want to talk about tough, he couldn't get a factory job because of his disabilities and the government about made it impossible for him to be 100% disabled which he didn't qualify for until 1982. He finally had steady work selling cars during the 70's, but that was far from steady good pay.

dieselone

The gov just prints money to pay unemployment for those who lose their jobs due to the purchase of foreign products

Technically, employers pay state unemployment insurance premiums for that purpose. The Federal government does offer loans to the states for when the unemployment funds run out and does provide money for extended benefits. But there is a reason why companies go to court over providing some employees unemployment benefits, because they are paying for it.

captain2

True, some money goes overseas, but the lion's share stays in the USA, where the jobs, asembly plants, and supported infrastructure resides.
and where do we think the $1 billion (or the $800 million) came from to build new plants in Texas and Alabama? Or in Kentucky, Ohio, and Tenn - among others? . What about the economic impact of just those construction projects, while the D3 continue to put more and more folks in our unemployment lines while simultaneously stimulating the economies north and south of our borders?
The Fusion may be a fine car, and an example FTM of how Ford is improving - but I be damned if I'm going to buy one - don't know of a single Mexican Ford employee that pays our teachers, police officers, or firefighters or FTM has contributed one red cent to the Obama (and Bush) giveaway programs!
The Camry recently became THE most American made vehicle (surpassing even the PU trucks) and it is vehicles like that we should all buy. Kudos to Toyota - and Nissan, Honda, Hyundai etc. for keeping most of my money where it belongs!

fezo

Man, if my outlook was as negative as some on these boards I'd have to start taking medication.

At least you have access....

dieselone

At least you have access....

LOL! Hey, I still have to go to a Dr. first like every one else;)

fezo

Went out with a woman many years ago whose brother was a pharmacist who took to using, I believe it was, medical cocaine. Whatever it was he got caught and promptly became a former pharmacist. You should have heard all the names and such she had for him. What an idiot!

You no doubt had to take organic chem as part of your education. That would do me right in. They used to use that course to wash out all the would be doctors when I was in school.

dieselone

Went out with a woman many years ago whose brother was a pharmacist who took to using, I believe it was, medical cocaine. Whatever it was he got caught and promptly became a former pharmacist. You should have heard all the names and such she had for him. What an idiot!

It still happens. Your right it's stupid. Now days you can keep your license as long as you get treatment and didn't acquire the drugs illegally. Stealing a controlled substance is a big, big no, no.! Theft is a huge problems in the pharmacies. For some reason those little pills and vials all ways seem to come up missing and know one knows how or why

You no doubt had to take organic chem as part of your education. That would do me right in. They used to use that course to wash out all the would be doctors when I was in school.

No, not me! My wife is the pharmacists and yes she had to take organic chem and all sorts of other classes I probably can't spell let alone pass. I went the easy route and got a management degree.

circlew

Exactly. GM will become Chinese and Toyota, Hyundai, Honda and Nissan will become American.

Simple.

Regards,
OW

fintail

Not to mention a lot of that "employment" is underemployment. More jobs, lesser quality. And of course illegal immigration is never factored in - too many of the elite profit from it.

verdi942

Earth to Andres3 - That was then - now, GM and Ford products are at least as well designed and well built as anything Toyota, etc. sell. Their lousy products of the last 30+ years were caused by mismanagement; the UAW was NOT in charge of those companies, despite its considerable power. They are still US companies; the majority of their shareholders and the bulk of their profits stay here. Sure, the UAW aint what it should be, but how long do you think those transplant factory workers would be getting their current wages if those UAW people didn't have their contracts? The economic benefits of the foreigners' investments her are considerable; its to our domestic manufacturers' shame that they didn't build those plants; just as shameful as the recent bailout. But now, I say, if a GM or Ford product meets your requirements, buy it; if not, look elsewhere.

dave8697

The monetary share of a US built vehicle that goes to union wages is in the 5% to 10% range. To drag the argument into union labor costs is smoke and mirrors. What about the other 95% of the content of a US built vehicle?

The job market has never been this bad for this long. Congress talking about a 3rd or 4th unemployment extension bailout? States now need $400 billion from the federal gov. and a lot of that is because of unemployment bankrupted many of the states. Print more money making it shrink in value. That is not a path to prosperity. Its time to pay for the free lunch.

America needs to contribute more to vehicle creation than snapping two parts together or pushing the 'go' button. At the transplants, we don't do much more than that. We are losing knowledge and ownership of the industrial base in the US.

Times were worse back in the 70's? What was the National Debt back then?

dieselone

Times were worse back in the 70's? What was the National Debt back then?

As a percentage of GDP it was less in the 70's. With all of Japan's supposed success they should be doing great. Nope, their national debt is 200% of GDP and I've been reading some economists believe they could default some time in the future. Look at what selling all those cars did for them. The Nikkei is still 1/2 what is was 20 years ago. They had 15 years of continual real estate deflation, yet their auto industry was booming the whole time.

Well, we had virtually no debt in the 1830's things must have been much better.

I'm certainly not saying things are great or even good, far from it. We are in one hell of a mess. But I guarantee, we'd be in the same mess even if GM sold 100% of the cars on our roads. Economics is far more complicated than just making everything we consume and we'll be fine. It simply doesn't work that way.

dieselone

We are losing knowledge and ownership of the industrial base in the US.

I disagree. We are exporting more manufacturing products as a percentage of GDP than we were 40 years ago. The US is still the top manufacturing country in the world. Our top manufacturers just aren't in autos. We simply produce more with less people.

And we're not alone. The decline in manufacturing employment is not limited to the U.S. Since 2000, China has lost over 4.5 million manufacturing jobs. In fact, nine of the top 10 manufacturing countries, which produce 75 percent of the world's manufacturing output (the U.S., Japan, Germany, China, Britain, France, Italy, Korea, Canada and Mexico), have lost manufacturing jobs, but their manufacturing output has risen. Sourced from Walter E. Williams, Ph.D.Professor of Economics at George Mason University in Fairfax, Va. in 2008

In 1940, 40% of the working population was employed in agriculture. Now it's about 2%. I guess that means we've lost our knowledge and ownership of agriculture too. Not even close we produce far more with a fraction of the agricultural work force. Thanks to great manufacturers like Deere etc.

busiris

I'm certainly not saying things are great or even good, far from it. We are in one hell of a mess. But I guarantee, we'd be in the same mess even if GM sold 100% of the cars on our roads. Economics is far more complicated than just making everything we consume and we'll be fine. It simply doesn't work that way.

Of course, you're right.

Talk to anyone alive during the Great Depression (when 100% of cars sold here were made here) and tell them this is as bad as it gets, and watch these old folks laugh you completely out of the building!

One other thought....I wonder how the folks that are always chanting "buy American" act in their local grocery store. Do they pay the extra to buy the locally grown produce, or buy the cheaper (but quite often) imported items?

Do they only buy oranges when they are in season in the US? Apples? Grapes?

A few might, but most don't. You see, its always different when its someone else left holding the bag... instead of you.

tlong

The monetary share of a US built vehicle that goes to union wages is in the 5% to 10% range. To drag the argument into union labor costs is smoke and mirrors. What about the other 95% of the content of a US built vehicle?

Then why did GM consider the labor costs such a big reason they failed?

Are you counting the pensions and healthcare in those numbers? I didn't think so.

America needs to contribute more to vehicle creation than snapping two parts together or pushing the 'go' button. At the transplants, we don't do much more than that.

Also incorrect. MANY of the foreign makes employ US workers at US design centers.

marsha7

dave: "Then there is the lost real estate value and then lost prop tax base leading to laid off state and local workers. All that is the trickle down effect of signing on the line to buy an Asian or European vehicle"...your assumption is one of a static economy and you do not seem to accept that change is constant...just because someone HAD a job building cars grants them no divine right to keep doing so...workers lose jobs, self-employed close businesses, and life goes on...your post seems to express the thought that nothing should ever change...you would still have buggy whip makers making buggy whips despite no demand for them because cars took the place of horses, or that everyone should still be farmers because 40% of the US population used to be in agriculture...that is what some call progress, or, more accurately, creative destruction...these are the same changes as autoworkers losing their jobs, to those who can do it better, the non-union workers who work for imports...also, don't forget that all those autoworkers were paid wages and benefits far in excess of the skill required to perform those jobs...the Ponzi pyramid scheme worked...until it hit the wall...rather than be grateful for being paid far in excess of their skill level, the UAW still wonders why folks don't want GM junk, and yes, Buy American menas buy the cars that put $$$ in union coffers...those days are gone, and if/when the administration changes, someone ought to let GM and Chrysler simply survive on their own or liquidate completely...funny, GM was originally afraid that if Chrysler and Ford went bankrupt (1980s) that they would have antitrust problems...now Ford may have that same concern...

fezo: organic chemistry was called the "weeder course" at Emory University, because it weeded out the substandard pre-med students...

Freshman year, 250 premed students...Sophomore year, 1st quarter Organic chemistry, premed down to 75-100...

fezo

I remember them as red flag courses. Organic chem for the would be doctors. CAlculus for teh would be engineers.

busiris

America needs to contribute more to vehicle creation than snapping two parts together or pushing the 'go' button. At the transplants, we don't do much more than that. We are losing knowledge and ownership of the industrial base in the US.

It appears that we have a differing opinion of manufacturing. As an example, take the Hyundai plant in Alabama or the Kia plant in Georgia.

http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-6547044/New-Kia-plant-will-resemble.html- - - -

This plant was recently featured on the NGC Ultimate Factories series. They have a complete stamping facility there, forming body panels from huge rolls of steel.

Unless you feel that a car manufacturing facility should be something like what Henry Ford envisioned at the Rouge River plant (raw materials going in one end, and cars driving out the other end - which, by the way, Ford dismissed decades ago), I'm not sure what you would think a manufacturing facility should be...

http://www.hmmausa.com/plant.aspx?id=36

At this plant, in addition to body panel stamping, they also assemble engines.

So, it would appear that your assertion that the "transplants", as you referred to them, is incorrect, and the "transplants" do far more that snapping 2 parts together and/or pushing the "go" button.

kipk

I have a Glock 34 and a 17 for target shooting, , a 19 and a 26 for carry.

The 26 is my summer carry gun and the 19 for winter attire. Generally carry concealed. But in Georgia we can carry either way with a Firearms license.

I've owned Glocks since around '86 or so and the things are simply marvelous pieces of extremely simple machinery. I've also owned a Sig Sauer and shot a multitude of guns from our rental dept and various customer's guns. Sold the Sig and am back to strictly Glock Pistols and S&W revolvers.

Been A Glock armorer for 5+ years and only worked on two with actual problems.
Both were brought on by people. One was so filthy that the slide couldn't full the spent case out of the chamber until the gun cooled for a couple of minutes.The fix was to spin a brush a few times in the chamber to remove years of build up. I went ahead and stripped it down for a good cleaning and lube job. Didn't charge him anything, but forced him to endure a lecture and buy some cleaning equipment.

The other was a gun the guy bought used. From the "git go" it had a very hard trigger pull. Problem was, instead of a trigger spring that helps to pull the trigger on a Glock, it had a "Wish bone" installed that fights the trigger pull and turns a 5-6# trigger into a 12# trigger. Compliments of the New York police department. I just replaced the "wish bone" with a trigger spring, and didn't charge him but a couple of dollars for the spring, as the gun was already cleaned and lubed to perfection.

By far the biggest problem with Glocks is the shooter. A right handed shooter will likely start off shooting low left and a left handed shooter low right. And then the occational "Limp" wristed shooter. All that is easily corrected by proper grip.

Since our sheriffs dept has begun to drive some Chargers, there are more and more civilians doing the same. I expect the entire sheriff's fleet will be chargers in a few years unless someone else comes up with something better. They had a couple of Mustangs GT's in the fleet but I haven't seen them lately. Possibly the small size of the Mustangs and the Charger being quicker had something to do with that. Still can't get over LE vehicles having that great "Throaty" sound. :shades:

Kip

kipk

>"The 2011 Mustang no longer uses the 4.6, it's got a new 5.0 32v DOHC v8 with like 412hp and 390 ft-lbs of torque or so. Now were talkin."

Yes I was reading that it is now 5 liter, but for some reason was thinking it is a revamped and punched out 4.6. Is that not correct?

Kip

lemko

I used to have a part-time job doing physical inventory. A co-worker was an executive who was laid-off from Bausch & Lomb. He had an MBA, yet was doing the inventory job at night and laying carpet with his brother during the day. It was inspiring seeing this man with a once prestigious job doing whatever he had to do to survive, yet a shame to see such an educated guy doing the work of a high school dropout. He was in his early 50s and should've been envisioning a comfortable retirement instead of doing grunt work.

kipk

>"Or, if you want to help US workers KEEP THEIR JOBS, make damn sure the UAW never gets within 100 miles of any US plant...maybe the UAW headquarters should be on the site of the Deepwater Horizon drilling site..." :shades:

DITTO !

dieselone

Yes I was reading that it is now 5 liter, but for some reason was thinking it is a revamped and punched out 4.6. Is that not correct?

I don't remember exactly, it maybe, but heavily revised it is.

dieselone

I used to have a part-time job doing physical inventory. A co-worker was an executive who was laid-off from Bausch & Lomb. He had an MBA, yet was doing the inventory job at night and laying carpet with his brother during the day. It was inspiring seeing this man with a once prestigious job doing whatever he had to do to survive, yet a shame to see such an educated guy doing the work of a high school dropout. He was in his early 50s and should've been envisioning a comfortable retirement instead of doing grunt work.

That's nothing new. My second job out of college was in IT sales. A co-worker of mine was in his late 50's, had his MBA and was down sized a few years prior as an executive from Xerox, then had a short stint as a VP at Lasalle Bank in downtown Chicago in which he was shortly let go. He went from making well into six figures in 1994 to barely making $30k in 1996. He was a great guy and I actually went to HS with his daughter. That's life, there are no guarantees, nor should there be. Hopefully, he saved a bunch when he was making good money.

Anyone who's had a long lucrative career SHOULD have a decent nest egg when they reach their 50's. At some point your career will end, whether on it's on your terms or not. But many don't, they'd rather have big homes, new cars every few years, and younger wives. That gets expensive.

kipk

>"Wow, dave! I couldn't have said it better myself! Philadelphia is a microcosm of what happens when you lose your industrial base."

How has the country lost it's industrial base where the auto manufacturing is concerned? There are as many or more autos and trucks being manufactured here now as there have ever been. They just don't have the GM flag flying on the plants.

Next time you get a chance, go by a dealer and look at the content of "American Cars". Don't be surprised to see 65% american parts. And don't be surprised if the assembly plant was Mexico or Canada or Brazil.

Kip



Kip

imidazol97

> a chance, go by a dealer and look at the content of "American Cars". Don't be surprised to see 65% american parts. And don't be surprised if the assembly plant was Mexico or Canada or Brazil.

A great part of that move was to evade the UAW's stranglehold on suppliers, am I not correct on that?

I used to believe the UAW was somewhat helpful in keeping employers inline regarding worker rights (not superrights, just the right to fair pay, fair treatment, fair dismissal). But I have changed since the obama protection of the labor unions in the bankruptcy and in the Gulf oil spill fiasco. I'm done. Especially bad was UAW's negotiations for favored treatment of their retirees regarding healthcare and pensions, causing trouble for the local Moraine plant IUE autoworkers--who weren't UAW, therefore UAW didn't negotiate their interests as autoworkers during the bankruptcy.

If it weren't for the past UAW's excessively high wages, the transplants wouldn't be paying crap for their assembly jobs, to wit the movement to reduce salaries to a factor of local prevailing wages including the Georgetown camry avalon plant.

If UAW had been booted from GM and C during bankruptcy, we might have been seeing more parts supplied within US during the next few years. For those with hatred of what the UAW has helped cause, lobbying the current administration to reduce their role will do nothing. The only choice GM has is to avoid the plants with highest overpaid UAW senior workers for production.

fintail

But that's more jobs, so it's all good :shades: :sick:

fezo

The 26 is my summer carry gun and the 19 for winter attire.

Just make sure not to wear your summer gun after Labor Day. That's a real faux pas.

marsha7

I have a Glock 23, nice gun...but, with small hands, I also own a Kahr E9, which has a grip that I would swear was made just for me...

KelTec also makes a nice 9mm and their 3AT (380, get it???)...

fezo

KelTec also makes a nice 9mm and their 3AT (380, get it???)...

Boy you gun folks are just a ton of giggles....

circlew

I love the one-off reasons that are presented as minor details regarding GM's business plan pre-C11. :shades:

Gasoline killed GM. Why can't anyone get that straight? Everything else was going just fine until the gas prices ruined everything! :lemon:

Regards,
OW

circlew

ALL Honda Accord coupes for global distribution are made in the U.S.A.

95% of Accord sedans sold here are made here. Sounds very domestic to meas far as an employment benefit.

Regards,
OW

circlew

Well, Hyundai just beat Mustang with their 2012 5.0 L 429 HP upgraded V-8.

Regards,
OW

circlew

Memo to Buying American: ALL Honda Accord Coupe GLobal Distribution is sourced in the U.S.A.

95% of Accord sedans sold in the USA are produced in the USA.

Top midsize car sold in the USA? Sounds very American to me!

Regards,
OW

dieselone

Well, Hyundai just beat Mustang with their 2012 5.0 L 429 HP upgraded V-8.

Ford did cheapen out by not including direct injection where the Hyundai 5.0 has it.

I have to give credit to Hyundai though. They have not been sitting still. Maybe Cadillac could buy some v8s from them;)

circlew

Nope. GM is on their own. Second-rate at Best.

Cadillac has announced yet another major change for the brand’s advertising efforts, switching after only five months from Bertle Bogle Hegarty to Fallon Worldwide, out of Minneapolis, Minnesota

One possible reason for the split with BBH is the addition of marketing chief Joel Ewanick to GM’s ranks, after leaving Hyundai. A source familiar with Ewanick’s thoughts on the subject said, “To one had any more patience; BBH was just too slow to change.”

Well, ain't that the pot calling the kettle black!

Hee Hee! - Having a problem getting your message out?

REgards,
OW

iwant12

A co-worker has a new Genesis Coupe. It's nice, I agree. The S. Koreans have come a LONG way in a short period of time. Good for them. Still, I'd take the Mustang over it. American muscle, baby! I'll take mine with the awesome V6, in white, please, and Guardsman Blue stripes. But my old hot-rod heart says pony up and get the 5.0.

tlong

The S. Koreans have come a LONG way in a short period of time.

Also, Ford has come a LONG way in a short period of time.

Unfortunately, GM has come a SHORT way in a LONG period of time.

And C has not come anywhere in any period of time. :mad:

berri

I'm pretty sure I've read about some potential problems with DI possibly fouling engines, so that may be part of the delay by some manufacturers. However, it could be cheapness as well I suppose.

oregonboy

I'm pretty sure I've read about some potential problems with DI possibly fouling engines, so that may be part of the delay by some manufacturers. However, it could be cheapness as well I suppose.

(the underlines are mine)

Congratulations! You have set a new, all-time record for "qualifiers" (weasel-words) for Edmunds forums, short paragraph division. :P

Just giving you a hard time. No offense intended. I generally qualify my statements as well. Making absolute statements will ALWAYS get you in trouble!

marsha7

Hey...go easy...sometimes it's just difficult to commit...

berri

I've got no problems stating facts I'm sure of, but feel it is appropriate to qualify when I'm not totally sure and looking to see if someone knows for fact.

berri

Maybe just got to watch wording in case of lawyers working on commission - just kidding!