Last week, a good friend of mine (in his late 20's/early 30's) finally made the decision to get a sports car, after mulling it over for a year or so.
So, he checked out the local car dealers.....
Headed to the Chevy (uh, I mean Chevrolet) dealer to investigate the Corvette. Liked that car, and wanted to take a test drive. The dealer absolutley refused to let him take one out (over 10 on the lot), either as a driver OR as a passenger with a sales rep driving unless the guy first goes through the credit application process to buy the car (he has the cash on hand). Absolutely NO deviation from the policy.
So, he went down the street about a mile and purchased (ordered) a BMW M3 fully loaded with all options. By the way, the BMW dealer made a copy of his DL, tossed the keys to an M3 to him and told him to take his wife out for a little ride before deciding on the car, just to make sure it was the model he wanted (and one she could live with).
Its no reflection on GM per se', but with dealers like that, they don't need any more enemies. Seems that the diminishing sales issues at GM aren't just tied to the corporate offices and their policies.
That proves GM failure was/is from stem to stern. I had the exact same experience where the Chevy guy wet right to payments and applications but no test drive for the 'vette,
When I test drove the 1-series in 2008, the BMW rep threw me the keys and didn't blink with any DL request...just "take it out and see what you think."
Then why did GM consider the labor costs such a big reason they failed?
when you create and sell 240 billion dollars worth of vehicles and try to make a 3% profit, that is a 7.2 billion profit being chased. Now factor in a 10% drop in sales due to a recession? Ow wow, that's $24 billion of unsold inventory.
In an ideal world, GM could make $5-10 billion. If union labor costs were 1% more of their costs, there goes 2.4 billion of that 5 billion low end profit, before the recession.
I'm talking about the $200 billion that GM pumped back into the economy every year. Through employees, union and salary, though 1st, second, and 3rd tier sub-suppliers, and through the raw materials and trickle down. It probably takes 2 gulf oil rigs just to heat the GM employees houses. It takes 50 high schools just to educate the employees kids.
The answer to your question is that one or two percent of gross revenues in added costs can bury a company nowadays.
Engine HMMA takes pride in having its own Engine Shop. The Hyundai V-6, 3.3l engine, producing 235 horsepower is made here on site in Montgomery. Castings of engine blocks, heads and crankshafts are delivered from suppliers and machined to HMMA’s exact specifications. Over 150 computer-controlled machines perform precision cuts to these engine parts. A sophisticated test laboratory performs precision computer measurements to ensure the machining process cuts and drills the metal to proper specifications. After machining and precision measurement testing, the parts are moved along a conveyor system to engine assembly where Team Members follow detailed procedures to assemble pieces of the engine. All engines are first cold-tested for leaks, then hot-tested, by starting the engine to ensure it meets manufacturing specifications. A Hyundai transmission is then married to the new engine to complete the assembly process. After a final quality check, the engine is sent on a trestle to the chassis section of General Assembly where it is attached to the drive train and the rest of the vehicle.
notice they didn't say where the suppliers were? A Hundai trans? wonder what state makes that?
I've always said they do a trade study of cost to ship in -vs- cost to make local. Of course, a sheet metal body panel is made local due to it's bulk. What about the $3000 tranny? Shipped in from S. Korea, along with the radio, the air bags, the pcm, and many other high value per unit volume components assembled into the cars. This applies to many of the transplants.
The challenge for domestic manufacturers is to build a business model and supply base that can provide premium parts that are assembled on world-class chassis' with world class engines that drive sales past the off-shore competition.
Either you're in it or you are not. We saw that GM and C tanked and even Ford was on Heavy Credit Life Support. Ford Executed change far faster than GM and it ow shows
Oh, by the way, GM still doesn't get it. Profits might be up but execution in terms of "firing on all cylinders" is far from "high performance",
The answer to your question is that one or two percent of gross revenues in added costs can bury a company nowadays.
Funny how so many other companies did not need $60B and still survived through a downturn.
Fact is that if GM's management couldn't handle a 10% or 20% downturn then they were doing a terrible job.
Fact also is that due to the UAW, GM had a boat anchor around its neck with the Jobs bank, repressive union labor contracts, high union pensions and health care. This and non-competitive products are what caused GM to fail.
I'm pretty sure I've read about some potential problems with DI possibly fouling engines, so that may be part of the delay by some manufacturers. However, it could be cheapness as well I suppose.
DI has been around a long time. It revolutionized marine 2 stroke engines nearly 10 years ago. They went to foul plugging, gas hogging, environment polluting monsters to nearly as clean and efficient as any modern 4 stroke outboard engine.
I know some of the early two stroke direct injected outboards had serious teething issues, but I've not read about those kinds of problems in any direct injected car engine.
I'm guessing Ford elected to save some money and/or sand bag a bit so they can add it later. I've read the new 5.0 was designed with DI in mind. Plus the 3.7 v6 in the Mustang has DI, so I doubt any potential reliability issues with DI are why it was omitted. Regardless, Ford's 5.0 is very impressive.
In an ideal world, GM could make $5-10 billion. If union labor costs were 1% more of their costs, there goes 2.4 billion of that 5 billion low end profit, before the recession.
In an ideal world, GM would have consistently made vehicles worth buying over the past 30 years;)
In an ideal world, GM would have consistently made vehicles worth buying over the past 30 years;)
In reality, GM doesn't, their competition does and their ideas are too slow to market. Nothing changed and the ipo will only make it worse because the sickness still lies in the GM DNA.
Perhaps they should have made the Hyundai Marketing Head the C.E.O. instead. I'm interested to see who runs the new public GM.
Engine HMMA takes pride in having its own Engine Shop. The Hyundai V-6, 3.3l engine, producing 235 horsepower is made here on site in Montgomery. Castings of engine blocks, heads and crankshafts are delivered from suppliers and machined to HMMA’s exact specifications. Over 150 computer-controlled machines perform precision cuts to these engine parts. A sophisticated test laboratory performs precision computer measurements to ensure the machining process cuts and drills the metal to proper specifications. After machining and precision measurement testing, the parts are moved along a conveyor system to engine assembly where Team Members follow detailed procedures to assemble pieces of the engine. All engines are first cold-tested for leaks, then hot-tested, by starting the engine to ensure it meets manufacturing specifications. A Hyundai transmission is then married to the new engine to complete the assembly process. After a final quality check, the engine is sent on a trestle to the chassis section of General Assembly where it is attached to the drive train and the rest of the vehicle.
notice they didn't say where the suppliers were? A Hundai trans? wonder what state makes that?
I've always said they do a trade study of cost to ship in -vs- cost to make local. Of course, a sheet metal body panel is made local due to it's bulk. What about the $3000 tranny? Shipped in from S. Korea, along with the radio, the air bags, the pcm, and many other high value per unit volume components assembled into the cars. This applies to many of the transplants.
LOL!!!
And, pray tell exacly where all the electronics are made for the Big-3...
And, just how many transmissions and other drive train components are imported to go in the Big-3 autos? Why aren' t they following your suggestions? Don't you think they have also done your "trade study of cost to ship in -vs- cost to make local" analysis?
The problem with your philosophy is that you apparantly think if a transport car company imports ANYTHING used in vehicle assembly its a bad thing, but seem to think the domestics using imported assemblies is perfectly reasonable and just fine. Never mind all those Mexican and Brazilian manufacturing operations. I guess they don't matter.
That's just absurd to the nth degree.
Go to the US towns and cities where these plants are located and try to convince them how bad these plants are for America and the local workers/municipalitiies.
Be prepared for a "warm" reception.
Remember your original comment...
America needs to contribute more to vehicle creation than snapping two parts together or pushing the 'go' button. At the transplants, we don't do much more than that. We are losing knowledge and ownership of the industrial base in the US.
All this premium and world class talk flies in the face of what I see in 3-5 yr old foreign cars on the road. I'm sure there is plenty of buyers' remorse and overpaying going on with them.
Hundai is taking business from Japan more so than the D3.
And, just how many transmissions and other drive train components are imported to go in the Big-3 autos?
The tranny in my Oshawa made Silverado came from the US. I guess that would be an import, right?
Go to the US towns and cities where these plants are located and try to convince them how bad these plants are for America and the local workers/municipalitiies.
As long as I only spoke to assemblers in entry level / base jobs, they would be a happy lot. If I was trying to talk to mid level positions like managers, technicians, and engineers, I would not find hardly anyone who wasn't a transplant.
That proves GM failure was/is from stem to stern. I had the exact same experience where the Chevy guy wet right to payments and applications but no test drive for the 'vette,
When I test drove the 1-series in 2008, the BMW rep threw me the keys and didn't blink with any DL request...just "take it out and see what you think."
Period.
Regards, OW
Actually, I'm a bit disheartened by that.
I was hoping is was just a single dealer that sucked.
I could understand not letting someone drive a 'vette without some sort of qualification, but the dealer wouldn't even allow a test ride with a sales-rep doing the driving. I dunno....maybe his sales staff consists of horrible drivers.
Seems BMW doesn't find employees from the same "pool" of reps...
The tranny in my Oshawa made Silverado came from the US. I guess that would be an import, right?
And, that Chevy Aveo you see on the highway is 95 % imported construction, so if you want to play the "who's got the most US content in its vehicles", you're going to find a lot of foreign brands/models exceeding those made by the Big-3.
Also, I seem to remember seeing recently that a Ford pickup has less US content in it than a Toyota Camry.
In fact, "If you're only looking at domestic-sourced parts content, the F-150 doesn't even make the top 10 list of vehicles. According to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, the Toyota Tundra has the highest U.S. parts content of any pickup, at 80 percent."
You obviously have no idea what you are talking about as it relates to domestically located, foreign brand name auto manufacturing plants.
Come down to SC and take a look around the BMW plant here.
You might be surprised at what you see. Its certainly more than a "snapping 2 parts together" facility, with more than 3 US engineers running the place.
Of course, you'll have to open your eyes in order to see it!!!
So I have been watching this thread and periodically interjecting over the last two years or so and I have come to realize that its the same 12 people are so posting. Yes, we get that ~8 of you hate GM (or F,C, and GM or some subset there of) nothing it does will ever be right, and you feel it should rot in hell. The 2 that hate anything with a funny sounding "import" name (Honda, Hyundai, Toyota, etc) aren't going to convince the others that GM makes a superior product (I don't care if they do or not, but you aren't going to convince the 8 that do). And the 2 union guys - I don't think you are going to convince the other 10 that inflated labor costs are good for the country (again, I am not saying if it is or isn't, but the other 10 are not going to change their minds). So if we rehash WalMart is evil/mom-n-pop stores are evil, I should pay extra to have something made in America, or "my 1952 unicycle needed its carb adjusted times and my 2010 toyota unicycle hasn't" one more time, I think the thread should be shut down.
I guess my point is the other 307,000,000 people in the US don't care and aren't participating in this forum.
I think that you are right, but it's an active forum. And Edmunds has so few of those remaining anymore, that they are unlikely to shut one of them down. :surprise:
I don't have a favorite, personally. I think you can find a quality build vehicle (and junk as well) from any manufacturer.
The only dog I have in this "hunt" is whether or not a foreign owned manufacturer (cars or anything else, for that matter) is ultimately good or bad for the US.
Its a trend we had better get used to, because it isn't going away anytime soon. And, if it isn't good for us, then we had damn well figure out a way to make it good for us.... its here to stay.
Its a question I have been asking for some time now. And, I am also tiring of the same old answers that most (who, for the most part, really have very little education on the impacts of these facilities (pro-or-con) on the US economy) like to give.
The tranny in my Oshawa made Silverado came from the US. I guess that would be an import, right?
I don't know where the transmission was made in my Mexican madeSuburban and I don't care. All I know is it was typical GM garbage!!!! 46k miles and it self destructed. The failure rate on the 4l60e has to be as bad as anything else in the market. It's unbelievable how many people I've talked to that have had multiple failures with that transmission.
The only dog I have in this "hunt" is whether or not a foreign owned manufacturer (cars or anything else, for that matter) is ultimately good or bad for the US.
I've overall been a Ford fan for as long as I can remember, but I I believe competition is good. If the foreign makes weren't allowed to be sold here, God help us regarding how much worse our domestic vehicles would be. And even being a Ford guy, I'd be an idiot if I said Ford has always built the best cars on the road. In my 23 years of driving, I've owned probably 15 cars or so. 2 have been non domestics. I've owned chrysler, Saturn, Mecury, Chevy, Pontiac, Ford, VW, and Nissan.
So while I bash the domestics with the best of them, it's from solid experience with sub par product.
All this premium and world class talk flies in the face of what I see in 3-5 yr old foreign cars on the road. I'm sure there is plenty of buyers' remorse and overpaying going on with them.
Hundai is taking business from Japan more so than the D3.
Some are good and some are not. In my experience with people I talk to, the foreign owners seem more satisfied than the domestic owners, but it appears to be changing. Just found out a friend of mines wife's 2009 Toyota Sienna quit on her in Chicago, so they certainly aren't perfect. My brother recently bought his first domestic ever, a 2010 Fusion Sport and he raves about it so far. I drove it once and was really impressed. Tight, quiet, quick, good handling and fun. Not bad for $27k.
Hyundai certainly appears to be going after Toyota and seem to be winning sales.
Headed to the Chevy (uh, I mean Chevrolet) dealer to investigate the Corvette. Liked that car, and wanted to take a test drive. The dealer absolutley refused to let him take one out (over 10 on the lot), either as a driver OR as a passenger with a sales rep driving unless the guy first goes through the credit application process to buy the car (he has the cash on hand). Absolutely NO deviation from the policy.
My local Mazda dealer(Oxmoor Mazda, Louisville KY) had a similar policy regarding the Mazdaspeed 3 back in 2007. They also added a $2K-$3K ADM sticker to every MS3. I ended up buying my MS3 from Kings Mazda Cincinnati- where the sales man offered a test drive before I could ask and had a car equipped the way I wanted trucked in from Cleveland at no additional cost. That said, my experience with BMW dealers is similar to yours. No unnecessary garbage- just "Here's the car- Enjoy!"
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
So while I bash the domestics with the best of them, it's from solid experience with sub par product
+1
I could not say it better myself! I only state my own personal experience over almost 30 years of various GM products. If I only had problems with 1 or 2 vehicles that would be one thing, but to have it on every single one tells a very different story, despite being a car nut, and really taking car of my cars and their maintenance.
"Maybe just got to watch wording in case of lawyers working on commission - just kidding!"
Send me your address, so I can send the bill... :P
BTW, when we work on a "percentage of recovery" we call it "contingency fee" because if we recover nothing for you, then there is nothing for us, since, in our business, there are no guarantees of $$, simply because one NEVER knows if the jury will be generous or stingy...there are numerous cases, personal injury type, where the jury didn't even award the full amount of the doctor bills, so while the general public thinks all we hit are "home runs" you would be surprised at the number of "bunts" and "strike-outs", if you'll allow the baseball analogies...
First impressions count a lot. I had a VW that I bought with 88k on it that needed daily maintenance. I got rid of it and bought an Olds with 100k on it. Then I was able to just drive for the next 12 years. Air filters, tune-ups, and oil changes were the only time I had to pop the hood. I judge my overall experience with GM by the number of over $300 repair occurances in those 32 years since getting that Olds: A Camaro a/c compressor, Astro rr a/c line, Sonoma a/c compressor, and just recently, Sonoma intake manifold gasket. Still counting on one hand. S. Fla is hard on a/c units. In all that time, I never had a D3 car just quit on me.
Also making it hard for others to compete, I have been used about $10k in GM card earnings over those years, most recently, getting an added $3450 off on my 2010 Malibu.
Thinking that I avoided costly repairs by getting rid of them early? Guess again. Olds was sold at 203k, Camaro at 168k, Monte Carlo at 175k, Astro at 185k, Buick has 178k, and three others have over 110k now (one is a Ford).
I judge my overall experience with GM by the number of over $300 repair occurances in those 32 years since getting that Olds
$300? I didn't know you could get anything fixed for $300 or less anymore. On my Suburban I spent over $1k for the a/c, $1600 for the transmission rebuild, $700 for a fuel pump, and on and on.
Actually the daytime running light bulbs that I replaced every few months was under $2 for a replacement, so I guess I got off cheap there.
I've only had one car leave me stranded and that was my '98 Ford SVT Contour. It was about a month old and it just quit on me out in the middle of no where. Turned out that the factory miss ran the wires to the fuel pump and they chaffed over a weld causing a short to the pump.
Even with my Suburban issues it never left me stranded. I was able to drive it with the trans bad (interesting experience) and the fuel pump happened in the driveway.
$300? I didn't know you could get anything fixed for $300 or less anymore. On my Suburban I spent over $1k for the a/c, $1600 for the transmission rebuild, $700 for a fuel pump, and on and on.
Heck, the one time my Park Ave has gone to the mechanic since I've had it, that was about $300. That was to change the engine oil, oil in the supercharger, two swaybar links, and give the thing a general check-over.
One of my friends, who has a 2005 Silverado, needs a new control unit for his HVAC. The part alone is about $275, and hecho en meh-hico. Fortunately, he can put the part in himself, and save on the labor. At least I'm presuming he can...he pulled the part out by himself!
One of my friends, who has a 2005 Silverado, needs a new control unit for his HVAC. The part alone is about $275, and hecho en meh-hico. Fortunately, he can put the part in himself, and save on the labor. At least I'm presuming he can...he pulled the part out by himself!
Must have been a common issue, I had that in my Suburban too. On mine the heat would stick on. I had to have that and something replaced regarding a damper control and it was a $600 or so repair for it and the module.
I also had to replace the 4wd selector switch, but that was cheap, $60-80.
>"My Dad has a KelTec P9. It's a good affordable defensive gun and half the thickness of a Glock 26."
Also about half the price of a 26.
Had a guy come into the store one day and spend quite a while looking over the hand gun selection. Didn't take long to figure he was shopping for low price.
I tried explaining how simply purchasing a gun is just the start, and lots of practice was necessary to become proficient with one, Especially in a stressfull situation.
He looked some more and really liked the price of the P9 Kel-Tec. So he started asking questions. I basically told him that we had quite a few of them traded back in because they don't hold up well if shot a lot, as for practice.
He said, "I don't care if they act up during practice, I only want it for self defense."
After heavy use in S. Fl all through the 80's, the new compressor and dryer installed for the Camaro came to a little over $400. That was around 1990. It was still doing fine when I sold the car in 1998. It needed a clutch for the first time around 1996, and that was just under $300.
It is purely a defensive pistol. The P9 will beat up your hand a lot if you try to target shoot with it and accuracy isn't too good at greater distances. My hand was stinging after I ran a few magazines through it. For practice and target shooting, a larger frame pistol is better. I use a Beretta PF92, (M9).
I'm getting too old and shaky for bulls eye shooting anymore so I practice with the gun I will likely be carrying. 26 in summer and 19 after labor day. Have to stay in fashion!
And staying on topic: My Ridgeline has a very deep center console with a pocket that holds either gun in perfect alignment for fast acquisition.
"......So, what would one call the massive investments in plant and equipment that the foreign manufacturers have made in the US? They didn’t take their profits and put them in a Japanese bank vault. They spent a large amount of it here, both in $$$ and %%%"
Actually, those investments were made with the tax breaks those states gave them, not with profits.
Speaking at a recent event in Korea, Krafcik revealed that the Sonata Turbo will carry a base sticker price of less than $25,000. Given a starting price of $24,000 and change, the Sonata Turbo will undercut V6 versions of the Toyota Camry, Honda Accord and Chevrolet Malibu by about $3,000.
Despite having two fewer cylinders, the Sonata Turbo will come packing a class-leading 274 horsepower. That power is supplied via Hyundai’s new 2.0L turbocharged and direct-injected four-cylinder, with a six-speed automatic handling shifting duties. Hyundai says the Sonata Turbo will be able to accelerate from 0-60 in 6.5 seconds.
With an expected EPA rating of 34mpg highway, the Sonata Turbo will also be the most fuel-efficient vehicle in its class – even beating out the competition’s four-cylinder offerings.
GM keeps slipping far behind because they are "too big to succeed" and "too slow to pull the trigger". Priced too high, GM will likely continue the bleeding incentives at the highest industry rate, no doubt, just to push the aging iron.
Watch out, BMW...the Sonata is getting into 3-series acceleration territory with 2 less pots!...and $20 less K's!
Actually, those investments were made with the tax breaks those states gave them, not with profits.
Usually capital investments are up front, and tax breaks are on future income. So it might be a bit simplistic to say that. Plus, do we know the magnitude of the capital investments vs. tax breaks? I find it hard to believe that a say, $500M plant got anywhere near $500M worth of tax breaks. Any data?
".....Do you realize the US economy employs roughly 55 million more people today vs. 1975. That's about a 38% increase in jobs vs a 28% increase in population."
All fine and dandy. In 1975, the average salary was $6.90/hr. In 2008, it was $21.90/hr. But the Median salary in 1975 was $5.85/hr, or 84.7% of average. Today, the Median salary is $17.50/hr or 79.9% of average, which means there is a greater gap betwen the haves and have nots.
There may be more people making bigger bucks in those jobs that weren't here 30 yrs ago, but there are also more people making LESS money doing more menial work than 30 years ago. I'm not saying that those being paid less need to be paid more, but there needs to be more, better paying jobs here that there is now.
I too, get my stats from the BLS and the Census dept.
"......GM will become Chinese and Toyota, Hyundai, Honda and Nissan will become American."
I agree, if GM gets bought by the Chinese then they will become a Chinese company, but unless an American company buys the others, or they move their world hq here, and make their decisions here, they will NEVER be an American company.
Why don't we cut welfare by 80%, deport the illegals, and make the welfare folks pick the lettuce...if that is work that "Americans won't do" let's see what happens when we let them starve to death or work...watch how fast Americans will do what they won't do...
"........workers lose jobs, self-employed close businesses, and life goes on...your post seems to express the thought that nothing should ever change...you would still have buggy whip makers making buggy whips despite no demand for them because cars took the place of horses,"
I don't think that is it at all, Bob. (BTW, one of the biggest buggy makers was Studebaker. They made a transition just fine for 50 years) What I think everybody would like to see is those buggy whip makers have been able to transition into another line of work making a similar wage (leather interiors for the cars??). If (when??) that job became obsolete, then, again transition into another line of work making similar wages (back to leather whips for the S&M industry??). Not so much a "devine right" to a particular job, but a devine right to the "life, liberty and persuit of happiness", with a reasonable "return" on their "investment" of training and work.
"......So, what would one call the massive investments in plant and equipment that the foreign manufacturers have made in the US? They didn’t take their profits and put them in a Japanese bank vault. They spent a large amount of it here, both in $$$ and %%%"
Actually, those investments were made with the tax breaks those states gave them, not with profits.
In a word...Wrong.
No doubt incentives have aided both foreign and domestic plant construction, but its not nearly as simplistic as your statement implies.
BMW is wrapping up a $500 million expansion in its SC plant, and I can easily tell you that SC doesn't have anywhere near $500 million to give away. And, Boeing just moved to SC to open up shop on a second assembly line for 787's (no doubt, to evade the union influence).
The 787’s rear fuselage is already made in North Charleston, where Vought Aircraft Industries had a contract to ship sections to Boeing for final assembly in Everett. Boeing bought the operations from Vought in July, and workers there rejected membership in the machinists union last month. Unlike Washington, South Carolina is a right-to-work state, meaning it forbids requiring union membership as a condition of employment.
The new plant, added to the one Boeing just bought, will give Boeing its first assembly center outside Seattle and could siphon more jobs away from Washington as the company considers other new aircraft models.
South Carolina’s legislature approved an incentives package today that would provide infrastructure, equipment, training facilities and tax breaks, Leach said, declining to put a value on the deal. The package, which does not specifically name Boeing as the beneficiary, is valued at about $170 million, according to the unions.
I will agree with one thing, though. There needs to be a halt on the way companies use municipalities against each other (both domestic and foreign) to create a bidding-war that the taxpayer funds in a considerabele amount.
All fine and dandy. In 1975, the average salary was $6.90/hr. In 2008, it was $21.90/hr. But the Median salary in 1975 was $5.85/hr, or 84.7% of average. Today, the Median salary is $17.50/hr or 79.9% of average, which means there is a greater gap betwen the haves and have nots.
There may be more people making bigger bucks in those jobs that weren't here 30 yrs ago, but there are also more people making LESS money doing more menial work than 30 years ago. I'm not saying that those being paid less need to be paid more, but there needs to be more, better paying jobs here that there is now.
Good points. What I'd like to know is, what has the effect of more women in the work force had on wages. It would makes sense if you have more supply for labor, then wages will be pressured down. Also, we have people living long and some of these retirees are picking up part time (generally low paying) gigs to supplement their retirement savings/social security, and possibly health benefits. Our changes in demographics certainly has an affect on these statistics.
I wish I could find it again, but I can't. I read an article online somewhere about a household income study that showed households with incomes of $100k+ are up nearly 30% in inflation adjusted dollars vs. 30 years ago as of 2009 IIRC. The article was titled something like "The Disappearing Middle Class Myth" or something like that. It was an interesting read.
I tend to think the have vs. have nots run along education attainment overall. People with degrees tend to marry people with degrees, so either spouse has a better chance of obtaining gainful employment. Often both do, so you have many households with dual earners making well over $50k each by the time the make it to their prime earning years. I don't think any of my college friends have a household income under $100k, most are over $150k.
Granted on the flip side for every dual earning couple with good jobs, there are probably 5 or more that have low income jobs and they are both working and still can't make ends meet.
If (when??) that job became obsolete, then, again transition into another line of work making similar wages
That's hard to do when lost jobs were over paid unskilled labor to begin with. No one in their right mind is going to pay higher wages than they have too. Then add productivity gains, and it's hard to employ people without marketable skills.
Comments
So, he checked out the local car dealers.....
Headed to the Chevy (uh, I mean Chevrolet) dealer to investigate the Corvette. Liked that car, and wanted to take a test drive. The dealer absolutley refused to let him take one out (over 10 on the lot), either as a driver OR as a passenger with a sales rep driving unless the guy first goes through the credit application process to buy the car (he has the cash on hand). Absolutely NO deviation from the policy.
So, he went down the street about a mile and purchased (ordered) a BMW M3 fully loaded with all options. By the way, the BMW dealer made a copy of his DL, tossed the keys to an M3 to him and told him to take his wife out for a little ride before deciding on the car, just to make sure it was the model he wanted (and one she could live with).
Its no reflection on GM per se', but with dealers like that, they don't need any more enemies. Seems that the diminishing sales issues at GM aren't just tied to the corporate offices and their policies.
Great choice!
Mine still would be the Genesis on top but I admit the mustang is tempting for 2011.
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
When I test drove the 1-series in 2008, the BMW rep threw me the keys and didn't blink with any DL request...just "take it out and see what you think."
Period.
Regards,
OW
when you create and sell 240 billion dollars worth of vehicles and try to make a 3% profit, that is a 7.2 billion profit being chased. Now factor in a 10% drop in sales due to a recession? Ow wow, that's $24 billion of unsold inventory.
In an ideal world, GM could make $5-10 billion. If union labor costs were 1% more of their costs, there goes 2.4 billion of that 5 billion low end profit, before the recession.
I'm talking about the $200 billion that GM pumped back into the economy every year. Through employees, union and salary, though 1st, second, and 3rd tier sub-suppliers, and through the raw materials and trickle down. It probably takes 2 gulf oil rigs just to heat the GM employees houses. It takes 50 high schools just to educate the employees kids.
The answer to your question is that one or two percent of gross revenues in added costs can bury a company nowadays.
HMMA takes pride in having its own Engine Shop. The Hyundai V-6, 3.3l engine, producing 235 horsepower is made here on site in Montgomery. Castings of engine blocks, heads and crankshafts are delivered from suppliers and machined to HMMA’s exact specifications. Over 150 computer-controlled machines perform precision cuts to these engine parts. A sophisticated test laboratory performs precision computer measurements to ensure the machining process cuts and drills the metal to proper specifications. After machining and precision measurement testing, the parts are moved along a conveyor system to engine assembly where Team Members follow detailed procedures to assemble pieces of the engine. All engines are first cold-tested for leaks, then hot-tested, by starting the engine to ensure it meets manufacturing specifications. A Hyundai transmission is then married to the new engine to complete the assembly process. After a final quality check, the engine is sent on a trestle to the chassis section of General Assembly where it is attached to the drive train and the rest of the vehicle.
notice they didn't say where the suppliers were?
A Hundai trans? wonder what state makes that?
I've always said they do a trade study of cost to ship in -vs- cost to make local. Of course, a sheet metal body panel is made local due to it's bulk. What about the $3000 tranny? Shipped in from S. Korea, along with the radio, the air bags, the pcm, and many other high value per unit volume components assembled into the cars. This applies to many of the transplants.
Either you're in it or you are not. We saw that GM and C tanked and even Ford was on Heavy Credit Life Support. Ford Executed change far faster than GM and it ow shows
Oh, by the way, GM still doesn't get it. Profits might be up but execution in terms of "firing on all cylinders" is far from "high performance",
Put another way GM =Cobalt and Hyundai = Sonata.
The good thing is Ford is now Mustang once again!
We'll see how the ipo
Any questions?
Regards,
OW
Funny how so many other companies did not need $60B and still survived through a downturn.
Fact is that if GM's management couldn't handle a 10% or 20% downturn then they were doing a terrible job.
Fact also is that due to the UAW, GM had a boat anchor around its neck with the Jobs bank, repressive union labor contracts, high union pensions and health care. This and non-competitive products are what caused GM to fail.
DI has been around a long time. It revolutionized marine 2 stroke engines nearly 10 years ago. They went to foul plugging, gas hogging, environment polluting monsters to nearly as clean and efficient as any modern 4 stroke outboard engine.
I know some of the early two stroke direct injected outboards had serious teething issues, but I've not read about those kinds of problems in any direct injected car engine.
I'm guessing Ford elected to save some money and/or sand bag a bit so they can add it later. I've read the new 5.0 was designed with DI in mind. Plus the 3.7 v6 in the Mustang has DI, so I doubt any potential reliability issues with DI are why it was omitted. Regardless, Ford's 5.0 is very impressive.
In an ideal world, GM would have consistently made vehicles worth buying over the past 30 years;)
In reality, GM doesn't, their competition does and their ideas are too slow to market. Nothing changed and the ipo will only make it worse because the sickness still lies in the GM DNA.
Perhaps they should have made the Hyundai Marketing Head the C.E.O. instead. I'm interested to see who runs the new public GM.
Regards,
OW
HMMA takes pride in having its own Engine Shop. The Hyundai V-6, 3.3l engine, producing 235 horsepower is made here on site in Montgomery. Castings of engine blocks, heads and crankshafts are delivered from suppliers and machined to HMMA’s exact specifications. Over 150 computer-controlled machines perform precision cuts to these engine parts. A sophisticated test laboratory performs precision computer measurements to ensure the machining process cuts and drills the metal to proper specifications. After machining and precision measurement testing, the parts are moved along a conveyor system to engine assembly where Team Members follow detailed procedures to assemble pieces of the engine. All engines are first cold-tested for leaks, then hot-tested, by starting the engine to ensure it meets manufacturing specifications. A Hyundai transmission is then married to the new engine to complete the assembly process. After a final quality check, the engine is sent on a trestle to the chassis section of General Assembly where it is attached to the drive train and the rest of the vehicle.
notice they didn't say where the suppliers were?
A Hundai trans? wonder what state makes that?
I've always said they do a trade study of cost to ship in -vs- cost to make local. Of course, a sheet metal body panel is made local due to it's bulk. What about the $3000 tranny? Shipped in from S. Korea, along with the radio, the air bags, the pcm, and many other high value per unit volume components assembled into the cars. This applies to many of the transplants.
LOL!!!
And, pray tell exacly where all the electronics are made for the Big-3...
And, just how many transmissions and other drive train components are imported to go in the Big-3 autos? Why aren' t they following your suggestions? Don't you think they have also done your "trade study of cost to ship in -vs- cost to make local" analysis?
The problem with your philosophy is that you apparantly think if a transport car company imports ANYTHING used in vehicle assembly its a bad thing, but seem to think the domestics using imported assemblies is perfectly reasonable and just fine. Never mind all those Mexican and Brazilian manufacturing operations. I guess they don't matter.
That's just absurd to the nth degree.
Go to the US towns and cities where these plants are located and try to convince them how bad these plants are for America and the local workers/municipalitiies.
Be prepared for a "warm" reception.
Remember your original comment...
America needs to contribute more to vehicle creation than snapping two parts together or pushing the 'go' button. At the transplants, we don't do much more than that. We are losing knowledge and ownership of the industrial base in the US.
Hundai is taking business from Japan more so than the D3.
The tranny in my Oshawa made Silverado came from the US. I guess that would be an import, right?
Go to the US towns and cities where these plants are located and try to convince them how bad these plants are for America and the local workers/municipalitiies.
As long as I only spoke to assemblers in entry level / base jobs, they would be a happy lot. If I was trying to talk to mid level positions like managers, technicians, and engineers, I would not find hardly anyone who wasn't a transplant.
When I test drove the 1-series in 2008, the BMW rep threw me the keys and didn't blink with any DL request...just "take it out and see what you think."
Period.
Regards,
OW
Actually, I'm a bit disheartened by that.
I was hoping is was just a single dealer that sucked.
I could understand not letting someone drive a 'vette without some sort of qualification, but the dealer wouldn't even allow a test ride with a sales-rep doing the driving. I dunno....maybe his sales staff consists of horrible drivers.
Seems BMW doesn't find employees from the same "pool" of reps...
LOL!!!!
And, that Chevy Aveo you see on the highway is 95 % imported construction, so if you want to play the "who's got the most US content in its vehicles", you're going to find a lot of foreign brands/models exceeding those made by the Big-3.
Also, I seem to remember seeing recently that a Ford pickup has less US content in it than a Toyota Camry.
http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/daily-news/090707-Study-Toyota-- - - Camry-More-American-Than-Ford-F-150/
From the link...
In fact, "If you're only looking at domestic-sourced parts content, the F-150 doesn't even make the top 10 list of vehicles. According to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, the Toyota Tundra has the highest U.S. parts content of any pickup, at 80 percent."
You obviously have no idea what you are talking about as it relates to domestically located, foreign brand name auto manufacturing plants.
Come down to SC and take a look around the BMW plant here.
You might be surprised at what you see. Its certainly more than a "snapping 2 parts together" facility, with more than 3 US engineers running the place.
Of course, you'll have to open your eyes in order to see it!!!
The 2 that hate anything with a funny sounding "import" name (Honda, Hyundai, Toyota, etc) aren't going to convince the others that GM makes a superior product (I don't care if they do or not, but you aren't going to convince the 8 that do).
And the 2 union guys - I don't think you are going to convince the other 10 that inflated labor costs are good for the country (again, I am not saying if it is or isn't, but the other 10 are not going to change their minds).
So if we rehash WalMart is evil/mom-n-pop stores are evil, I should pay extra to have something made in America, or "my 1952 unicycle needed its carb adjusted times and my 2010 toyota unicycle hasn't" one more time, I think the thread should be shut down.
I guess my point is the other 307,000,000 people in the US don't care and aren't participating in this forum.
I don't have a favorite, personally. I think you can find a quality build vehicle (and junk as well) from any manufacturer.
The only dog I have in this "hunt" is whether or not a foreign owned manufacturer (cars or anything else, for that matter) is ultimately good or bad for the US.
Its a trend we had better get used to, because it isn't going away anytime soon. And, if it isn't good for us, then we had damn well figure out a way to make it good for us.... its here to stay.
Its a question I have been asking for some time now. And, I am also tiring of the same old answers that most (who, for the most part, really have very little education on the impacts of these facilities (pro-or-con) on the US economy) like to give.
I don't know where the transmission was made in my Mexican madeSuburban and I don't care. All I know is it was typical GM garbage!!!! 46k miles and it self destructed. The failure rate on the 4l60e has to be as bad as anything else in the market. It's unbelievable how many people I've talked to that have had multiple failures with that transmission.
Make the best products.
They finally have a great ad line though...May the Best Car Win.
Chuckle!
Regards,
OW
I've overall been a Ford fan for as long as I can remember, but I I believe competition is good. If the foreign makes weren't allowed to be sold here, God help us regarding how much worse our domestic vehicles would be. And even being a Ford guy, I'd be an idiot if I said Ford has always built the best cars on the road. In my 23 years of driving, I've owned probably 15 cars or so. 2 have been non domestics. I've owned chrysler, Saturn, Mecury, Chevy, Pontiac, Ford, VW, and Nissan.
So while I bash the domestics with the best of them, it's from solid experience with sub par product.
Hundai is taking business from Japan more so than the D3.
Some are good and some are not. In my experience with people I talk to, the foreign owners seem more satisfied than the domestic owners, but it appears to be changing. Just found out a friend of mines wife's 2009 Toyota Sienna quit on her in Chicago, so they certainly aren't perfect. My brother recently bought his first domestic ever, a 2010 Fusion Sport and he raves about it so far. I drove it once and was really impressed. Tight, quiet, quick, good handling and fun. Not bad for $27k.
Hyundai certainly appears to be going after Toyota and seem to be winning sales.
My local Mazda dealer(Oxmoor Mazda, Louisville KY) had a similar policy regarding the Mazdaspeed 3 back in 2007. They also added a $2K-$3K ADM sticker to every MS3. I ended up buying my MS3 from Kings Mazda Cincinnati- where the sales man offered a test drive before I could ask and had a car equipped the way I wanted trucked in from Cleveland at no additional cost. That said, my experience with BMW dealers is similar to yours. No unnecessary garbage- just "Here's the car- Enjoy!"
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
+1
I could not say it better myself! I only state my own personal experience over almost 30 years of various GM products. If I only had problems with 1 or 2 vehicles that would be one thing, but to have it on every single one tells a very different story, despite being a car nut, and really taking car of my cars and their maintenance.
Send me your address, so I can send the bill... :P
BTW, when we work on a "percentage of recovery" we call it "contingency fee" because if we recover nothing for you, then there is nothing for us, since, in our business, there are no guarantees of $$, simply because one NEVER knows if the jury will be generous or stingy...there are numerous cases, personal injury type, where the jury didn't even award the full amount of the doctor bills, so while the general public thinks all we hit are "home runs" you would be surprised at the number of "bunts" and "strike-outs", if you'll allow the baseball analogies...
Also making it hard for others to compete, I have been used about $10k in GM card earnings over those years, most recently, getting an added $3450 off on my 2010 Malibu.
Thinking that I avoided costly repairs by getting rid of them early? Guess again. Olds was sold at 203k, Camaro at 168k, Monte Carlo at 175k, Astro at 185k, Buick has 178k, and three others have over 110k now (one is a Ford).
$300? I didn't know you could get anything fixed for $300 or less anymore. On my Suburban I spent over $1k for the a/c, $1600 for the transmission rebuild, $700 for a fuel pump, and on and on.
Actually the daytime running light bulbs that I replaced every few months was under $2 for a replacement, so I guess I got off cheap there.
I've only had one car leave me stranded and that was my '98 Ford SVT Contour. It was about a month old and it just quit on me out in the middle of no where. Turned out that the factory miss ran the wires to the fuel pump and they chaffed over a weld causing a short to the pump.
Even with my Suburban issues it never left me stranded. I was able to drive it with the trans bad (interesting experience) and the fuel pump happened in the driveway.
Heck, the one time my Park Ave has gone to the mechanic since I've had it, that was about $300. That was to change the engine oil, oil in the supercharger, two swaybar links, and give the thing a general check-over.
One of my friends, who has a 2005 Silverado, needs a new control unit for his HVAC. The part alone is about $275, and hecho en meh-hico. Fortunately, he can put the part in himself, and save on the labor. At least I'm presuming he can...he pulled the part out by himself!
Must have been a common issue, I had that in my Suburban too. On mine the heat would stick on. I had to have that and something replaced regarding a damper control and it was a $600 or so repair for it and the module.
I also had to replace the 4wd selector switch, but that was cheap, $60-80.
Also about half the price of a 26.
Had a guy come into the store one day and spend quite a while looking over the hand gun selection. Didn't take long to figure he was shopping for low price.
I tried explaining how simply purchasing a gun is just the start, and lots of practice was necessary to become proficient with one, Especially in a stressfull situation.
He looked some more and really liked the price of the P9 Kel-Tec. So he started asking questions. I basically told him that we had quite a few of them traded back in because they don't hold up well if shot a lot, as for practice.
He said, "I don't care if they act up during practice, I only want it for self defense."
Let the best gun win!
Kip
It's all one big Internet Argument.
Have to stay in fashion!
And staying on topic: My Ridgeline has a very deep center console with a pocket that holds either gun in perfect alignment for fast acquisition.
Kip
2 different animals. GP was the GM10 and W body, While the PA was the H (???) then the G platform from the Aurora.
Actually, those investments were made with the tax breaks those states gave them, not with profits.
Speaking at a recent event in Korea, Krafcik revealed that the Sonata Turbo will carry a base sticker price of less than $25,000. Given a starting price of $24,000 and change, the Sonata Turbo will undercut V6 versions of the Toyota Camry, Honda Accord and Chevrolet Malibu by about $3,000.
Despite having two fewer cylinders, the Sonata Turbo will come packing a class-leading 274 horsepower. That power is supplied via Hyundai’s new 2.0L turbocharged and direct-injected four-cylinder, with a six-speed automatic handling shifting duties. Hyundai says the Sonata Turbo will be able to accelerate from 0-60 in 6.5 seconds.
With an expected EPA rating of 34mpg highway, the Sonata Turbo will also be the most fuel-efficient vehicle in its class – even beating out the competition’s four-cylinder offerings.
GM keeps slipping far behind because they are "too big to succeed" and "too slow to pull the trigger". Priced too high, GM will likely continue the bleeding incentives at the highest industry rate, no doubt, just to push the aging iron.
Watch out, BMW...the Sonata is getting into 3-series acceleration territory with 2 less pots!...and $20 less K's!
Regards,
OW
Usually capital investments are up front, and tax breaks are on future income. So it might be a bit simplistic to say that. Plus, do we know the magnitude of the capital investments vs. tax breaks? I find it hard to believe that a say, $500M plant got anywhere near $500M worth of tax breaks. Any data?
All fine and dandy. In 1975, the average salary was $6.90/hr. In 2008, it was $21.90/hr. But the Median salary in 1975 was $5.85/hr, or 84.7% of average. Today, the Median salary is $17.50/hr or 79.9% of average, which means there is a greater gap betwen the haves and have nots.
There may be more people making bigger bucks in those jobs that weren't here 30 yrs ago, but there are also more people making LESS money doing more menial work than 30 years ago. I'm not saying that those being paid less need to be paid more, but there needs to be more, better paying jobs here that there is now.
I too, get my stats from the BLS and the Census dept.
I agree, if GM gets bought by the Chinese then they will become a Chinese company, but unless an American company buys the others, or they move their world hq here, and make their decisions here, they will NEVER be an American company.
That's because the other "38%" are illegals harvesting our crops :P :P
(sorry, I couldn't resist)
(sorry, I couldn't resist)
LOL, Well, we sure as hell better not send them back, or we are all going to starve;)
I don't think that is it at all, Bob. (BTW, one of the biggest buggy makers was Studebaker. They made a transition just fine for 50 years) What I think everybody would like to see is those buggy whip makers have been able to transition into another line of work making a similar wage (leather interiors for the cars??). If (when??) that job became obsolete, then, again transition into another line of work making similar wages (back to leather whips for the S&M industry??). Not so much a "devine right" to a particular job, but a devine right to the "life, liberty and persuit of happiness", with a reasonable "return" on their "investment" of training and work.
Actually, those investments were made with the tax breaks those states gave them, not with profits.
In a word...Wrong.
No doubt incentives have aided both foreign and domestic plant construction, but its not nearly as simplistic as your statement implies.
BMW is wrapping up a $500 million expansion in its SC plant, and I can easily tell you that SC doesn't have anywhere near $500 million to give away. And, Boeing just moved to SC to open up shop on a second assembly line for 787's (no doubt, to evade the union influence).
From:http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aGNKDxdXo2H4
The 787’s rear fuselage is already made in North Charleston, where Vought Aircraft Industries had a contract to ship sections to Boeing for final assembly in Everett. Boeing bought the operations from Vought in July, and workers there rejected membership in the machinists union last month. Unlike Washington, South Carolina is a right-to-work state, meaning it forbids requiring union membership as a condition of employment.
The new plant, added to the one Boeing just bought, will give Boeing its first assembly center outside Seattle and could siphon more jobs away from Washington as the company considers other new aircraft models.
South Carolina’s legislature approved an incentives package today that would provide infrastructure, equipment, training facilities and tax breaks, Leach said, declining to put a value on the deal. The package, which does not specifically name Boeing as the beneficiary, is valued at about $170 million, according to the unions.
I will agree with one thing, though. There needs to be a halt on the way companies use municipalities against each other (both domestic and foreign) to create a bidding-war that the taxpayer funds in a considerabele amount.
http://books.google.com/books?id=_rrcj28pvqIC&pg=PA145&lpg=PA145&dq=bmw+sc+expan- sion+incentives&source=bl&ots=Qoa5vYdteH&sig=eN7KiM3UIK4BJXveaGmKysMgx_c&hl=en&e- i=kk0pTLP9EIX7lwfXwsSMAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CDEQ6AEwBg#- v=onepage&q&f=false
There may be more people making bigger bucks in those jobs that weren't here 30 yrs ago, but there are also more people making LESS money doing more menial work than 30 years ago. I'm not saying that those being paid less need to be paid more, but there needs to be more, better paying jobs here that there is now.
Good points. What I'd like to know is, what has the effect of more women in the work force had on wages. It would makes sense if you have more supply for labor, then wages will be pressured down. Also, we have people living long and some of these retirees are picking up part time (generally low paying) gigs to supplement their retirement savings/social security, and possibly health benefits. Our changes in demographics certainly has an affect on these statistics.
I wish I could find it again, but I can't. I read an article online somewhere about a household income study that showed households with incomes of $100k+ are up nearly 30% in inflation adjusted dollars vs. 30 years ago as of 2009 IIRC. The article was titled something like "The Disappearing Middle Class Myth" or something like that. It was an interesting read.
I tend to think the have vs. have nots run along education attainment overall. People with degrees tend to marry people with degrees, so either spouse has a better chance of obtaining gainful employment. Often both do, so you have many households with dual earners making well over $50k each by the time the make it to their prime earning years. I don't think any of my college friends have a household income under $100k, most are over $150k.
Granted on the flip side for every dual earning couple with good jobs, there are probably 5 or more that have low income jobs and they are both working and still can't make ends meet.
That's hard to do when lost jobs were over paid unskilled labor to begin with. No one in their right mind is going to pay higher wages than they have too. Then add productivity gains, and it's hard to employ people without marketable skills.