Camcord vs. G6 is a much better arguement then the politics side in the Buying American cars and what it means
CamCords obviously. Even my 4 year old niece knows which one is better. Both the Malibu and the G6 are sales flop because GM thinks pushrod V6 is God's gift to the automotive world.
I would probably like your music much better because your an american, and it would be more appealing to me because we come from the same culture. The musicians you mentioned aren't of my tastes and of my culture. I like american music and yes would buy your CD.
I'm not only buying supporting buying Big 3 cars because they are american. I honestly believe in most segments of the auto-industry the Big 3 makes a vehicle that's truely competitive, meets, or exceeds it's competition. 2007 and beyond will add more support to my opinion as the Big 3 make automobiles that tighten up those gaps where there is a lapse. :shades:
We agree to disagree. The G6 however is more competitive than the malibu. The G6 sales haven't flopped like you claim. If you checked out some of the stats that some of the other posters have put on these forums the G6 and Malibu are meeting or exceeding some of the asian makes and models in sales. I can already hear the comeback. Well those "Fleet Sales"
is for most people a reflection and representation of the culture that the manufacturer comes from. The truth is not alwayse so...
while asians do have a higher IQ, we were the first culture to make mass market cars, and it took the asians many years to even begin catching up.
The truth is, that its the cost structure of the companies that is at fault with the cars, not the "race" of the owners. GM is working with too high a fixed cost structure, so they have less money with which to pack a car. The asians and to some extent, the germans do not have this problem.
For years, while japan and Germany threw money into R&D, our boys threw it into pension plans. The result is that while the foreign companies have been rapidly advancing technology (look at there 1970's cars vs ours), GM and Ford helped to presenve the American dream for many of there workers.
Now this is comming to fruition, and the good intention of the unions may leave ALL automotive employees without a job and half of there pensions. The recent union givebacks are a desperatley needed sign that perhaps unions and management can stop hating each other and start working together before its too late.
Part of me however, thinks the workers deserve it. Why should someone stamping metal get $25 an hour plus the kind of insurance that would cost an individual no less than 4,000 a year and a pension at least 2,000 a year. Then, that same worker goes out and buys a HONDA, or TOYOTA! This is not respective of all workers but c'mon we all know this happens. If that worker losses his job than he deserves it. think about the message he is sending "I build 'em, get a special discount, and still don't have the loyalty and common sence to buy one."
Managment, Unions and the worker are to share this blame, and only when they work together can they pull themselves out of it.
BTW, when the US govt lets ppl deduct taxes for buying a foreign truck, its not bieng a very good patriot, either. I believe that when it gives tax breakes for buying a prius, its just as guilty as that chevy worker who buys a toyota.
I having many relatives working for GM and Delphi have never heard of anyone in recent times buying a foreign make. Seriously it would be "KEYED" and has been done since it has haapened once or twice both of which were used foreign makes. I respect most of what you had to say but the GM worker buying a foreign make does not happen atleast in Western Michigan. However you do see a GM/Delphi worker on occassion buy a Ford or Chrysler, but that is also extremely rare and are usually used.
Your Meat and Potato's:
BTW, when the US govt lets ppl deduct taxes for buying a foreign truck, its not bieng a very good patriot, either. I believe that when it gives tax breakes for buying a prius, its just as guilty as that chevy worker who buys a toyota.
You should come by here (San Fran) sometime. Visit NUMMI workers. See the strangeness of people who think it's natural that they buy a Tacoma. What would you tell them?
>we were the first culture to make mass market cars, and it took the asians many years to even begin catching up.
And as with most other products they copied and drove out of production by American plants by dumping the products, they copied the automobiles and parts.
In an Edmunds discussion someone posted a chinese copy of a Mercedes!!!
"Both the Malibu and the G6 are sales flop because GM thinks pushrod V6 is God's gift to the automotive world"
Really ? Well that's news to the rest of the world. According to Ward's Automotive, both the Malibu and G6 are on the list of 15 Best Selling Cars for "Model Year" 2006 (July '05 to date), with the Malibu at the #8 sales spot and the G6 at #10 respectively.
For just the month of January 2006 alone, the Malubu was in the #5 sales spot and the G6 was #9 on the 15 "best selling list".
Yes, it's true that the data supports the Camry as #1 in sale thus far for the '06 model year, and the Accord is #4.
Last time I checked, that GM V-6 was ranked as one of the most reliable engines on the market, and as far as I know, it powers the wheels down the road just like any other engine does.
To call the Malibu and G6 "sales flops" is a false statement not based on fact. And we all know how this forum loves it's facts !!!!!
The Japanese realize they can dominate us not by war, but by manipulating there currency, controling us economically, and buying propaganda machines like car editors that are "experts"
Whoa! Now you've plunged dangerously off the deep end. While you see a vast conspiracy, most of us see something a lot more simple than that -- second-rate unreliable cars that don't deliver on what we want.
The "currency manipulation" comment shows that you don't know much about how foreign exchange works. Explain to me: What does Japan do to "manipulate" the yen that's substantially different from what the US does to control the value of the dollar?
And you really believe that the car mags are responsible for bringing down the US car industry? Novel approach -- we'd all love Buicks if only Car & Driver said nicer things about them?
(Here's a hint -- read the reviews written by the auto testers on this website, and you'll often find similar criticisms being made of "American" cars. So I guess that Edmunds must be controlled by the Japanese, too!)
And while I realize that The Asians may all look alike to you, you might want to learn that each nationality among them has its own heritage, seperate political and economic systems, and different histories. They don't see themselves as a unified bloc, as you do.
The Japan that terrifies you has a democratic government, an aging population, relatively high wages, and has been in the midsth of an economic recession that has lasted over a decade; it is very, very different from the PRC, with greater management of the economy, massive population and very low industrial wage base. Japan has some of the same worries about low wage competition that other western nations do.
Japan also has a currency that floats, so it's no more subject to "manipulation" than is the US dollar, because its value is ultimately determined by the free market. And as I have pointed out, the dollar has been losing value against the yen over the medium term, so exactly how is Japan "manipulating" anything?
This is the 3rd or 4th time that poster has tried to inject racism into the discussions.
Wake up, buddy -- I'm not the one on this thread who elected to describe "Asians" as a monolithic "enemy."
It's good for those reading this thread to know that there is a fair bit of jingoism among those who would tell you that a German-owned Chrysler is more "American" than Japanese-owned Honda. That position is not based on simple logical reasoning that tells you that Stuttgart is not located in the United States.
Obviously, that position doesn't make much sense unless the real underlying issue happens to be (a) support of the UAW or (b) something a bit more ugly than that. At best, it's based upon denial of reality that the management and corporate ownership of Chrysler changed several years ago.
I find it convenient that nobody has responded to Carlisimo's recent posts (see 973, for one). I think it cuts to the core of exactly what some of us have been saying around here. American jobs is what counts.
by the way, I also have a general suggestion for those participating in this discussion. I think it would be helpful to update your profile with your current (and maybe even past) vehicles.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I having many relatives working for GM and Delphi have never heard of anyone in recent times buying a foreign make. Seriously it would be "KEYED" and has been done since it has haapened once or twice both of which were used foreign makes. I respect most of what you had to say but the GM worker buying a foreign make does not happen atleast in Western Michigan. However you do see a GM/Delphi worker on occassion buy a Ford or Chrysler, but that is also extremely rare and are usually used.
Your Meat and Potato's:
BTW, when the US govt lets ppl deduct taxes for buying a foreign truck, its not bieng a very good patriot, either. I believe that when it gives tax breakes for buying a prius, its just as guilty as that chevy worker who buys a toyota. It's B.S. and should be illegal in my opinion.
I recognize that all that really concerns you is you and your family's personal security.
Consider though that there is a larger good, one that supercedes your family's special interest. The more fuel we use the more money we send to our real enemies who do actually wish to obliterate our way of life.
From your posts you do seems to have a bias against Asians but that is not where you should be looking. There are 3 countries in the world ( minimum ) that are actively planning now to end our way of life - and we send them vast amounts of money everyday to help them finance our elimination.
I work in the area of the largest military installation in the world and often the comment is made..'I'll do anything to stop sending money to the MidEast - and Venezuela'
The President and Congress have seen that we are shoveling money to our enemies faster than we can make it. This is the real reason for the huge deficits.
China, Japan, the Far East.. the one thing that they know above all is the same thing we know. Do NOT hurt your No 1 customer. OTOH Iran, Saudi and Venezuela all have elements within, and in power, that want nothing more than to eliminate the Satan in the West.
Redirect your anger. Look who has attacked our country most recently.
Frankly your family's little financial crisis now is of little consideration in comparison to our overall crisis. Get over it and deal with what reality is. You are already at war and all you can think about is health coverage.
"by the way, I also have a general suggestion for those participating in this discussion. I think it would be helpful to update your profile with your current (and maybe even past) vehicles."
>" From your posts you do seems to have a bias against Asiansmiddle Easterners, Islamics ... and we send them vast amounts of money everyday to help them finance our elimination.
Hmmmmmm, does that xenophobia work both ways?
>"China, Japan, the Far East.. the one thing that they know above all is the same thing we know. Do NOT hurt your No 1 customer victim or source of money."
Hmmmmmm.
Just to exaggerate a point which seems to get done here too often.
Apples to oranges. Snyder isn't indicting the people of Saudi Arabia, etc., but their governments. And you can't tell anyone who knows anything about geopolitics that the House of Saud is going to serve as a stable regime, or that Iran could pose a serious threat to the west with its intent to go nuclear AND a large supply of oil that everyone needs.
I have no quarrel with the people of Iran, but I'm surely worried about their government. Any nation that controls oil supplies and that has open hostility for the west should be a concern to every American.
Excuse me but have you missed the events since 2001. Do you not accept that we are at war now? I have a bias against anyone who has stated that they want me wiped off the face of the earth. You are right about that.
Being a customer is not the same at all as being a victim of terrorism. I can choose to be a customer, I cant choose to be present where a militant Islamic terrorist chooses to attack.
If your personal little world is wrapped up in your job and your little day-to-day crises then enjoy your bliss. As a US citizen and former NY'er, I am bitterly opposed to anyone whose goal in life is to destroy me.
The Twin Towers were personal to me. I saw them built, I ate there, went to school there, did business there, took my daughter to the roof there; I worked 20 blocks north of there for 15 yrs and I saw them every day of my life for 30 years. The attack on them was against me personally so I have no hesitancy to yes 'hate' anyone who wants to do the same again. I applaud The President and Congress for making an effort to get us off our 'addiction'.
It is not illegal as Rocky said, it's national security and it's far beyond healthcare, retirees and Delphi.
"most of us see something a lot more simple than that -- second-rate unreliable cars that don't deliver on what we want."
That's a pretty bold statement not backed up by any data anywhere, I offer you the JD Power 2005 Initial Quality Winners, which is a broad mix of Domestic, Asian, and European brands that were the segment leaders.
Curiously, the Camcord twins are nowhere to be found.....
Here are the specific segment leaders for 2005. Note that vehicle(s) in first position are overall winners; vehicles on subsequent lines of each segment are second- and third-place finishers.
Segment Vehicle Compact Car Toyota Prius Kia Spectra Honda Civic (tie) Toyota Corolla (tie)
Entry Midsize Car Chevrolet Malibu/Malibu Maxx Hyundai Sonata Volkswagen Jetta
Premium Midsize Car Buick Century Chevrolet Impala (tie) Pontiac Grand Prix (tie)
Full-Size Car Buick LeSabre Mercury Grand Marquis Ford Five Hundred
Entry Luxury Car Lexus IS 300 /IS 300 SportCross Jaguar X-Type Cadillac CTS
Mid Luxury Car Lexus GS 300/430 BMW 5-Series Cadillac DeVille
Premium Luxury Car Lexus SC 430 Lexus LS 430 Mercedes-Benz SL-Class Sporty Car Scion tC Acura RSX Ford Mustang Premium Sports Car Nissan 350Z Honda S2000 Porsche 911
Midsize Pickup Ford Explorer Sport Trac Ford Ranger Subaru Baja Light-Duty Full-Size Pickup Ford F-150 LD Cadillac Escalade EXT Toyota Tundra
Heavy-Duty Full-Size Pickup GMC Sierra HD Chevrolet Silverado HD Dodge Ram HD
Entry SUV Toyota RAV4 Mitsubishi Outlander Hyundai Tucson Midsize SUV Toyota 4Runner Mitsubishi Endeavor Honda Pilot (tie) Nissan Murano (tie) Full-Size SUV Chevrolet Suburban Chevrolet Tahoe Toyota Sequoia Entry Luxury SUV Lexus RX 330 BMW X3 Infiniti FX-Series Premium Luxury SUV Lexus GX 470 Lexus LX 470 Lincoln Navigator Midsize Van Toyota Sienna Chrysler Town & Country Dodge Caravan/Grand Caravan
"most of us see something a lot more simple than that -- second-rate unreliable cars that don't deliver on what we want."
That's a pretty bold statement not backed up by any data anywhere
Far from it. For example, let's take the Chevy Cobalt:
--Elsewhere on this thread, I posted JD Power survey data in comparison to the Civic and Corolla. The Cobalt led in no categories, and placed at the bottom in most of the rankings.
--The most recent Consumer Reports ranks the Cobalt as having reliability that is "much worse than average", the lowest of its five rankings. Compare it to the Civic and Corolla which, among others, both ranked as being "much better than average."
-Referring to Edmunds, you'll find the Cobalt criticized for its cheap interior and having relatively poor fit-and-finish. Compare that to the Civic and Corolla which are faulted for elements of style (i.e. the Civic's new space-age dashboard) and price (Corolla option packages add up), but are not faulted for quality.
And that's GM's main offering in the compact segment, one of the most competitive segments in the US market. A new model, and already the showings are dismal -- why should anyone subject themselves and spend their money on something like that?
Please don't confuse "Initial Quality" with long-term reliability. "Initial Quality may be an INDICATOR of long-term reliability; but a better indicator is historical data. Case in point: VW. This mark is famous (infamous?) for high initial quality but poor long-term reliability.
Historical data indicates that, generally speaking, the domestics lag behind Toyota/Honda.
"I offer you the JD Power 2005 Initial Quality Winners"
Well, bmk, you can offer me whatever you want, but I decline. I would rather base my future decisions on my own experience.
We bought a Ford Taurus in 1987 and it was a POS. I will never buy a Ford product again.
In our family, we have had 7 Honda products. 6 have been excellent and one has been good. I will probably stick with Honda cars until I die. After that, I will probably have a Honda tractor dig my grave, which will then be maintained through eternity by a Honda lawn mower.
"which will then be maintained through eternity by a Honda lawn mower. "
Eternity is a relative term in your case, as your resting place will be wiped off the map by the Islamic jihadists, after the crazy dude from Iran gladly hands them a nuke. After all, they will have it in a few month, while the UN security counsel just sits on their behind and watches the world go bye-bye. Our enemy is plotting to destroy us, and all we care about is, how much money can we save by shopping at Wal-Mart, and what did Britney Spears do yesterday. This country is asleep, and this time it will take a lot more than September 11, to wake us up. Sadly
"Sen. Charles Schumer, D-N.Y., faulted the administration's report for failing to deal with what many manufacturing companies see as a major contributor to the trade gap - Chinese policies that keep China's currency undervalued against the U.S. dollar, giving the country huge trade advantages against U.S. producers.
""It is amazing that in a comprehensive 29-page report, the trade representative fails to mention the 800 pound gorilla in the room - how China manipulates its currency," Schumer said in a statement."
Guess those xenophobes are thinking or pretending to be tightening up on some of that currency imbalance that doesn't exist--at least a couple people's minds.
Guess those xenophobes are thinking or pretending to be tightening up on some of that currency imbalance that doesn't exist--at least a couple people's minds.
You do realize that China and Japan are two seperate countries, don't you?
-- Key difference: China fixes its exchange rates; Japan does not.
-- Both the US and Japan have currencies with floating exchange rates.
-- Both the US and Japan attempt to manage their currency's value to serve their objectives, but neither has much power to "manipulate" the value. Ultimately, both are subject to values given by the free market.
And remember:
-- There are NO Chinese cars being sold in the US today.
-- The topic of China is completely seperate. Toyota, Honda, etc. are NOT Chinese companies.
So why do you continue to confuse China with Japan? I know that they may look alike to you, but they are completely different nations. Get your atlas out, and this will become evident...
This thread is about auto's Korean and Japanese.. OK that's in line.. but China??
And why do so many people keep bringing up WalMart? What in the name of all that's good does this have to do with auto's.
It seems that whenever a valid point is brought up the knee-jer reaction is..
'Yeah, but WalMart ( fill in the blank )....' Soooo What?
Geez people learn to debate on the topic. Walmart and China have nothing to do with autos - except to increase our balance of trade - Japan, Korea, oil/fuel and the MidEast have everything to do with the topic.
Hint: Google ==> Rants ==> WalMart ( fill in the blank )
This has always been our American way: Help train the guy and give him weapons, so that he can then turn on us and try to kill us - history repeats itself.
Most Dependable Manufacturers Which vehicles produce the fewest problems in the first three years of ownership? In late June, J.D. Power and Associates released its 2005 Vehicle Dependability Study, which lists the Most Dependable Cars and Most Dependable Trucks in 19 defined vehicle segments for the 2002 model year. Based on problems reported per 100 vehicles, Lexus was the most dependable manufacturer for the 11th consecutive year.
Most Dependable Manufacturers Performance by make is based on problems per 100 vehicles for all models; a lower score is better. The total industry average is 237, a decrease of 12 percent from 2004. Click on a manufacturer name to read the latest cars.com make report. Nameplate Score Lexus 139 Porsche 149 Lincoln 151 Buick 163 Cadillac 175 Infiniti 178 Toyota 194 Mercury 195 Honda 201 Acura 203 BMW 225 Ford 231 Chevrolet 232 Chrysler 235 Industry Average 237 Saturn 240 Oldsmobile* 242 GMC 245 Pontiac 245 Mazda 252 Hyundai 260 Subaru 260 Volvo 266 Jaguar 268 Dodge 273 Nissan 275 Mitsubishi 278 Mercedes-Benz 283 Saab 286 Jeep 289 Suzuki 292 Audi 312 Daewoo* 318 Isuzu 331 Volkswagen 335 Mini 383 Land Rover 395 Kia 397 *No longer producing new models Source: J.D. Power and Associates 2005 Vehicle Dependability Study
The table represents the manufacturers whose vehicles had the fewest problems reported in the first three years of ownership, according to a vehicle dependability study by J.D. Power and Associates. More than 50,600 original vehicle owners of 2002-model-year cars and trucks were surveyed.
"Historical data indicates that, generally speaking, the domestics lag behind Toyota/Honda".
The data indicates Toyota / Honda are just mid-pack in those brands ranked ABOVE AVERAGE in dependability according to JD Power. Several domestics rank above Toyota / Honda.
I'm not saying Toyota / Honda make bad cars. I'm merely defending the domestics. They make good product too.
First: As a class, the European makes have the 'worst' reliability, with BMW and Porsche being the only makes better than average.
Second: Typically, the 'prestige' nameplates from an automaker have higher reliability than the rest. (ie: Lexus better reliability than Toyota; Lincoln better than Mercury, which is in turn better than Ford; Buick/Cadillac better than Chevy; Infiniti better than Nissan; Chrysler better than Dodge....etc.). The only exception that I see to this rule is Honda has slightly better reliability than Acura.
Third: Of the most common makes, Toyota and Honda appear to have better reliability than the Big 3. Also, Ford/Chevy have virtually identical reliability ratings with Dodge a distant 3rd amoung the Big 3.
Forth: My earlier assessment of Volkswagon appears to be vindicated. If I remember correctly, it had some of the highest "Initial Quality" ratings, yet is behind Suzuki, Daewoo and Isuzu in the dependability rankings. More evidence that "Initial Quality" is NOT equal to dependability.
The data indicates Toyota / Honda are just mid-pack in those brands ranked ABOVE AVERAGE in dependability according to JD Power. Several domestics rank above Toyota / Honda.
??? Perhaps you're reading a different list than the rest of us?
Toyota and Honda rank above all of the bread-and-butter "domestics" to which they are most comparable, such as Chevy, Pontiac, Ford, Saturn and Dodge. This segment that most wants reliability is generally better served with the "foreign" cars (including those "foreign" makes made in the US.) Meanwhile, none of those middle-of-the-road "domestics" (which aren't always "domestics", of course) skews well above average -- they are about average at best.
As for Buick and Lincoln, their demographics are comprised largely of aging post-boomers who want traditional American style, i.e. a dying breed. It won't matter much if those premium cars are reliable if they lack the style and character desired by premium car buyers, and it certainly won't be of much help to middle-of-the-road and entry-level players such as the Cobalt if it is to compete effectively against the Civic or Corolla.
Lincoln, Cadillac and Buick all had higher rankings than Toyota/Honda.
I'm not sure which Cadillacs/Buicks/Lincolns are going head to head with Camrys and Accords. (Although I'll admit some overlap between the Toyota Avalon and some Buicks). Keep in mind, the Toyota/Honda rankings include the very plentiful (and plebian) Civics and Corollas.
#1I'm not sure how to give you my e-mail privately.
#2 I am simpily defending the economic attack on america. I am not a racist and have friends that are from various backgrounds. Many of them I have spoken to about these subjects and they are patriotic americans and want to see whats best for THEIR country too. I guess I'm a true isolationist and want to protect us from having secrets stolen by the chinese, japanese, middle easterners, and Lou Dobbs reported that the U.S. government knows of 4,000 front companies that's sole job is infiltrate U.S. military technology, such as one company trying to buy F-16 engines, which they caught.
BTW-I overheard Lou Dobbs yesterday talking about currency manipulation while taking care of the kids, and it's affect on domestic manufactors. I'm not sure how a country undervalues ones currency (The details)but hearing bits and pieces on that segment sounded like it's a real issue and shouldn't be ignored.
We drink oil at a huge rate and yes it's feeding our middle eastern enemy's. This is a real issue not just for the domestic manufactors, but for the U.S. government. We need to stop speaking rhetoric and deal with this real issue. That's been my biggest problem with are government of late. Lots of Rhetoric and no real solutions from either party.
Rocky
P.S. Yes giving tax deductions for someone buying any foreign car should be illegal! (My isolationist/protectionist opinion)
"Meanwhile, none of those middle-of-the-road "domestics" (which aren't always "domestics", of course) skews well above average -- they are about average at best."
Of course they won't vary much from whatever is deemed 'average'. The laws of statistics dictates that, since the 'domestics' represent the lionshare of everything on the road, WHATEVER their dependability rating is will be very close to the 'average'.
I guess I'm a true isolationist and want to protect us from having secrets stolen by the chinese, japanese, middle easterners, and Lou Dobbs reported that the U.S. government knows of 4,000 front companies that's sole job is infiltrate U.S. military technology, such as one company trying to buy F-16 engines, which they caught.
Er, can you explain how the Camry plant in Kentucky is jeopardizing national security? That's more than just a wee bit over the top...
Of course they won't vary much from whatever is deemed 'average'. The laws of statistics dictates that, since the 'domestics' represent the lionshare of everything on the road, WHATEVER their dependability rating is will be very close to the 'average'.
Incorrect use of the stats. The figures are based upon the average number of problems per one hundred vehicles for each brand. Market share does nothing to affect this statistic.
>I overheard Lou Dobbs yesterday talking about currency manipulation while taking care of the kids, and it's affect on domestic manufactors. I'm not sure how a country undervalues ones currency (The details)but hearing bits and pieces on that segment sounded like it's a real issue and shouldn't be ignored.
But Rockylee, didn't you read the earlier posts that currency manipulation by China and Japan doesn't really occur? Lou Dobbs must be wrong.
P.S. Yes giving tax deductions for someone buying any foreign car should be illegal! (My isolationist/protectionist opinion)
This is illegal.. overspending on fuel.. unnecessarily. It provides money to our enemies. I am all for taking money out of the pocket of those who wont drive more efficiently. At 60000 Prius-units and $3150 per unit that's akin to taking about $200 Million after-tax dollars out of the pockets of those who wont go along with the President and Congress. That's $200 Million that doesnt go to OPEC and stays here. That's smart govt.
You are allowed to spend as much as you want on fuel and if you wish you can send additional donations to the Embassies of SA and Iran and Venezuela. I am certain your generosity will be well appreciated. That is your right under our law.
BTW on the direct subject: Since 1985 the NA auto industry has grown nearly 40% in production. It is thriving, growing and extremely profitable. A few losers need to be restructured but that's always the case in a large market. Those associated with loss-generating companies will be hurt but again that is and always has been our way of doing business. This is not socialism it's capitalism. The efficient eat the less efficient.
Generally speaking, the more isolationist a country or population/culture is, the closer to the stone age they are.
Take a good, hard look at the countries/cultures around the world. Identify which of those countries/cultures are the most 'isolationist', that hate 'outsiders', and generally wish the rest of the world would just go away. At the root of all feelings of 'isolationism' I believe you'll find fear and insecurity.
I can't help but hear a lot of that same mentallity being expressed in this forum. Just my non-isolationist/non-protectionist opinion.
One of the biggest problems I have with the mantra of 'Buy American' because it is the 'patriotic' thing to do is the unspoken assumption that one should 'buy American' DESPITE any shortcomings in the product.
Are you guys saying that, based purely on the product, American's CAN'T COMPETE? I don't hear many arguments that one should buy 'Domestic' because the product is better; all I hear is buy 'Domestic' because it's the 'right' thing to do.
Bull. We CAN build a better product. Not 'as good as', BETTER. And I refuse to let the 'domestics' skate by, year after year after year offering the same mediocre 'almost good enough' product, with constant promises of 'this one is better - this one will beat the imports' only to find out that the latest offering is just barely up to the standards of the competition which is due for the next generation.
In other words - identify and fix the problem; expecting the consumer to just OVERLOOK the problem in the name of 'patriotism' is just corporate suicide.
But Rockylee, didn't you read the earlier posts that currency manipulation by China and Japan doesn't really occur?
Since you're so knowledgable about this, why don't you explain how Japan "manipulates" the value of the yen any differently from how the US manages the value of the dollar?
(And have you figured out yet that Japan and China are seperate countries with different policies?)
"The figures are based upon the average number of problems per one hundred vehicles for each brand. Market share does nothing to affect this statistic."
???
Say Brand 'X' sells 10,000 cars/year. They have an dependability of 50 problems /100 cars. Their rating is 50.
Brand 'Y' sells 10,000,000 cars/year. They have a dependability rating of 100 problems /100 cars. Their rating is 100.
The 'average' nationwide rating is NOT (50+100)/2 = 75.
The 'average' nationwide rating would be very close to 100, since there are MANY more cars on the road with a rating of 100 than there are with a rating of 50.
Bull. We CAN build a better product. Not 'as good as', BETTER. And I refuse to let the 'domestics' skate by, year after year after year offering the same mediocre 'almost good enough' product, with constant promises of 'this one is better - this one will beat the imports' only to find out that the latest offering is just barely up to the standards of the competition which is due for the next generation.
Case in point:
There are 5 major minivan models being built in the US for the US market all by US workers.
Two are considered to be at the pinnacle as #1 and #2; One is very good and is in fact the industry leader; Two are so horrible that no one is buying them and the factories making them are going to be shut.
The #1 and #2 models consistently sell at prices far above No's 4 & 5. Thus the US market says no matter at what price you try to sell us this junk we wont take it.
The more efficient eat the less efficient. America is better off with more people driving in better vehicles.
Comments
CamCords obviously. Even my 4 year old niece knows which one is better. Both the Malibu and the G6 are sales flop because GM thinks pushrod V6 is God's gift to the automotive world.
I'm not only buying supporting buying Big 3 cars because they are american. I honestly believe in most segments of the auto-industry the Big 3 makes a vehicle that's truely competitive, meets, or exceeds it's competition. 2007 and beyond will add more support to my opinion as the Big 3 make automobiles that tighten up those gaps where there is a lapse. :shades:
Rocky
Rocky
while asians do have a higher IQ, we were the first culture to make mass market cars, and it took the asians many years to even begin catching up.
The truth is, that its the cost structure of the companies that is at fault with the cars, not the "race" of the owners. GM is working with too high a fixed cost structure, so they have less money with which to pack a car. The asians and to some extent, the germans do not have this problem.
For years, while japan and Germany threw money into R&D, our boys threw it into pension plans. The result is that while the foreign companies have been rapidly advancing technology (look at there 1970's cars vs ours), GM and Ford helped to presenve the American dream for many of there workers.
Now this is comming to fruition, and the good intention of the unions may leave ALL automotive employees without a job and half of there pensions. The recent union givebacks are a desperatley needed sign that perhaps unions and management can stop hating each other and start working together before its too late.
Part of me however, thinks the workers deserve it. Why should someone stamping metal get $25 an hour plus the kind of insurance that would cost an individual no less than 4,000 a year and a pension at least 2,000 a year. Then, that same worker goes out and buys a HONDA, or TOYOTA! This is not respective of all workers but c'mon we all know this happens. If that worker losses his job than he deserves it. think about the message he is sending "I build 'em, get a special discount, and still don't have the loyalty and common sence to buy one."
Managment, Unions and the worker are to share this blame, and only when they work together can they pull themselves out of it.
BTW, when the US govt lets ppl deduct taxes for buying a foreign truck, its not bieng a very good patriot, either. I believe that when it gives tax breakes for buying a prius, its just as guilty as that chevy worker who buys a toyota.
just my two cents.
I respect most of what you had to say but the GM worker buying a foreign make does not happen atleast in Western Michigan. However you do see a GM/Delphi worker on occassion buy a Ford or Chrysler, but that is also extremely rare and are usually used.
Your Meat and Potato's:
BTW, when the US govt lets ppl deduct taxes for buying a foreign truck, its not bieng a very good patriot, either. I believe that when it gives tax breakes for buying a prius, its just as guilty as that chevy worker who buys a toyota.
It's B.S. and should be illegal in my opinion.
Rocky
Didn't see where you posted a question to me yesterday ?, sorry !
This is the 3rd or 4th time that poster has tried to inject racism into the discussions.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
And as with most other products they copied and drove out of production by American plants by dumping the products, they copied the automobiles and parts.
In an Edmunds discussion someone posted a chinese copy of a Mercedes!!!
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Really ? Well that's news to the rest of the world. According to Ward's Automotive, both the Malibu and G6 are on the list of 15 Best Selling Cars for "Model Year" 2006 (July '05 to date), with the Malibu at the #8 sales spot and the G6 at #10 respectively.
For just the month of January 2006 alone, the Malubu was in the #5 sales spot and the G6 was #9 on the 15 "best selling list".
Yes, it's true that the data supports the Camry as #1 in sale thus far for the '06 model year, and the Accord is #4.
Last time I checked, that GM V-6 was ranked as one of the most reliable engines on the market, and as far as I know, it powers the wheels down the road just like any other engine does.
To call the Malibu and G6 "sales flops" is a false statement not based on fact. And we all know how this forum loves it's facts !!!!!
Whoa! Now you've plunged dangerously off the deep end. While you see a vast conspiracy, most of us see something a lot more simple than that -- second-rate unreliable cars that don't deliver on what we want.
The "currency manipulation" comment shows that you don't know much about how foreign exchange works. Explain to me: What does Japan do to "manipulate" the yen that's substantially different from what the US does to control the value of the dollar?
And you really believe that the car mags are responsible for bringing down the US car industry? Novel approach -- we'd all love Buicks if only Car & Driver said nicer things about them?
(Here's a hint -- read the reviews written by the auto testers on this website, and you'll often find similar criticisms being made of "American" cars. So I guess that Edmunds must be controlled by the Japanese, too!)
And while I realize that The Asians may all look alike to you, you might want to learn that each nationality among them has its own heritage, seperate political and economic systems, and different histories. They don't see themselves as a unified bloc, as you do.
The Japan that terrifies you has a democratic government, an aging population, relatively high wages, and has been in the midsth of an economic recession that has lasted over a decade; it is very, very different from the PRC, with greater management of the economy, massive population and very low industrial wage base. Japan has some of the same worries about low wage competition that other western nations do.
Japan also has a currency that floats, so it's no more subject to "manipulation" than is the US dollar, because its value is ultimately determined by the free market. And as I have pointed out, the dollar has been losing value against the yen over the medium term, so exactly how is Japan "manipulating" anything?
Wake up, buddy -- I'm not the one on this thread who elected to describe "Asians" as a monolithic "enemy."
It's good for those reading this thread to know that there is a fair bit of jingoism among those who would tell you that a German-owned Chrysler is more "American" than Japanese-owned Honda. That position is not based on simple logical reasoning that tells you that Stuttgart is not located in the United States.
Obviously, that position doesn't make much sense unless the real underlying issue happens to be (a) support of the UAW or (b) something a bit more ugly than that. At best, it's based upon denial of reality that the management and corporate ownership of Chrysler changed several years ago.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
by the way, I also have a general suggestion for those participating in this discussion. I think it would be helpful to update your profile with your current (and maybe even past) vehicles.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I respect most of what you had to say but the GM worker buying a foreign make does not happen atleast in Western Michigan. However you do see a GM/Delphi worker on occassion buy a Ford or Chrysler, but that is also extremely rare and are usually used.
Your Meat and Potato's:
BTW, when the US govt lets ppl deduct taxes for buying a foreign truck, its not bieng a very good patriot, either. I believe that when it gives tax breakes for buying a prius, its just as guilty as that chevy worker who buys a toyota.
It's B.S. and should be illegal in my opinion.
I recognize that all that really concerns you is you and your family's personal security.
Consider though that there is a larger good, one that supercedes your family's special interest. The more fuel we use the more money we send to our real enemies who do actually wish to obliterate our way of life.
From your posts you do seems to have a bias against Asians but that is not where you should be looking. There are 3 countries in the world ( minimum ) that are actively planning now to end our way of life - and we send them vast amounts of money everyday to help them finance our elimination.
I work in the area of the largest military installation in the world and often the comment is made..'I'll do anything to stop sending money to the MidEast - and Venezuela'
The President and Congress have seen that we are shoveling money to our enemies faster than we can make it. This is the real reason for the huge deficits.
China, Japan, the Far East.. the one thing that they know above all is the same thing we know. Do NOT hurt your No 1 customer. OTOH Iran, Saudi and Venezuela all have elements within, and in power, that want nothing more than to eliminate the Satan in the West.
Redirect your anger. Look who has attacked our country most recently.
Frankly your family's little financial crisis now is of little consideration in comparison to our overall crisis. Get over it and deal with what reality is. You are already at war and all you can think about is health coverage.
Excellent idea. Done.
From your posts you do seems to have a bias against
Asiansmiddle Easterners, Islamics ...and we send them vast amounts of money everyday to help them finance our elimination.
Hmmmmmm, does that xenophobia work both ways?
>"China, Japan, the Far East.. the one thing that they know above all is the same thing we know. Do NOT hurt your No 1
customervictim or source of money."Hmmmmmm.
Just to exaggerate a point which seems to get done here too often.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Apples to oranges. Snyder isn't indicting the people of Saudi Arabia, etc., but their governments. And you can't tell anyone who knows anything about geopolitics that the House of Saud is going to serve as a stable regime, or that Iran could pose a serious threat to the west with its intent to go nuclear AND a large supply of oil that everyone needs.
I have no quarrel with the people of Iran, but I'm surely worried about their government. Any nation that controls oil supplies and that has open hostility for the west should be a concern to every American.
Being a customer is not the same at all as being a victim of terrorism. I can choose to be a customer, I cant choose to be present where a militant Islamic terrorist chooses to attack.
If your personal little world is wrapped up in your job and your little day-to-day crises then enjoy your bliss. As a US citizen and former NY'er, I am bitterly opposed to anyone whose goal in life is to destroy me.
The Twin Towers were personal to me. I saw them built, I ate there, went to school there, did business there, took my daughter to the roof there; I worked 20 blocks north of there for 15 yrs and I saw them every day of my life for 30 years. The attack on them was against me personally so I have no hesitancy to yes 'hate' anyone who wants to do the same again. I applaud The President and Congress for making an effort to get us off our 'addiction'.
It is not illegal as Rocky said, it's national security and it's far beyond healthcare, retirees and Delphi.
That's a pretty bold statement not backed up by any data anywhere, I offer you the JD Power 2005 Initial Quality Winners, which is a broad mix of Domestic, Asian, and European brands that were the segment leaders.
Curiously, the Camcord twins are nowhere to be found.....
Here are the specific segment leaders for 2005. Note that vehicle(s) in first position are overall winners; vehicles on subsequent lines of each segment are second- and third-place finishers.
Segment Vehicle
Compact Car Toyota Prius
Kia Spectra
Honda Civic (tie)
Toyota Corolla (tie)
Entry Midsize Car Chevrolet Malibu/Malibu Maxx
Hyundai Sonata
Volkswagen Jetta
Premium Midsize Car Buick Century
Chevrolet Impala (tie)
Pontiac Grand Prix (tie)
Full-Size Car Buick LeSabre
Mercury Grand Marquis
Ford Five Hundred
Entry Luxury Car Lexus IS 300 /IS 300 SportCross
Jaguar X-Type
Cadillac CTS
Mid Luxury Car Lexus GS 300/430
BMW 5-Series
Cadillac DeVille
Premium Luxury Car Lexus SC 430
Lexus LS 430
Mercedes-Benz SL-Class
Sporty Car Scion tC
Acura RSX
Ford Mustang
Premium Sports Car Nissan 350Z
Honda S2000
Porsche 911
Midsize Pickup Ford Explorer Sport Trac
Ford Ranger
Subaru Baja
Light-Duty Full-Size Pickup Ford F-150 LD
Cadillac Escalade EXT
Toyota Tundra
Heavy-Duty Full-Size Pickup GMC Sierra HD
Chevrolet Silverado HD
Dodge Ram HD
Entry SUV Toyota RAV4
Mitsubishi Outlander
Hyundai Tucson
Midsize SUV Toyota 4Runner
Mitsubishi Endeavor
Honda Pilot (tie)
Nissan Murano (tie)
Full-Size SUV Chevrolet Suburban
Chevrolet Tahoe
Toyota Sequoia
Entry Luxury SUV Lexus RX 330
BMW X3
Infiniti FX-Series
Premium Luxury SUV Lexus GX 470
Lexus LX 470
Lincoln Navigator
Midsize Van Toyota Sienna
Chrysler Town & Country
Dodge Caravan/Grand Caravan
Source: J.D. Power and Associates
That's a pretty bold statement not backed up by any data anywhere
Far from it. For example, let's take the Chevy Cobalt:
--Elsewhere on this thread, I posted JD Power survey data in comparison to the Civic and Corolla. The Cobalt led in no categories, and placed at the bottom in most of the rankings.
--The most recent Consumer Reports ranks the Cobalt as having reliability that is "much worse than average", the lowest of its five rankings. Compare it to the Civic and Corolla which, among others, both ranked as being "much better than average."
-Referring to Edmunds, you'll find the Cobalt criticized for its cheap interior and having relatively poor fit-and-finish. Compare that to the Civic and Corolla which are faulted for elements of style (i.e. the Civic's new space-age dashboard) and price (Corolla option packages add up), but are not faulted for quality.
And that's GM's main offering in the compact segment, one of the most competitive segments in the US market. A new model, and already the showings are dismal -- why should anyone subject themselves and spend their money on something like that?
Historical data indicates that, generally speaking, the domestics lag behind Toyota/Honda.
Well, bmk, you can offer me whatever you want, but I decline. I would rather base my future decisions on my own experience.
We bought a Ford Taurus in 1987 and it was a POS. I will never buy a Ford product again.
In our family, we have had 7 Honda products. 6 have been excellent and one has been good. I will probably stick with Honda cars until I die. After that, I will probably have a Honda tractor dig my grave, which will then be maintained through eternity by a Honda lawn mower.
Eternity is a relative term in your case, as your resting place will be wiped off the map
by the Islamic jihadists, after the crazy dude from Iran gladly hands them a nuke.
After all, they will have it in a few month, while the UN security counsel just sits on their behind and watches the world go bye-bye.
Our enemy is plotting to destroy us, and all we care about is, how much money can we save by shopping at Wal-Mart, and what did Britney Spears do yesterday.
This country is asleep, and this time it will take a lot more than September 11, to wake us up. Sadly
:mad:
""It is amazing that in a comprehensive 29-page report, the trade representative fails to mention the 800 pound gorilla in the room - how China manipulates its currency," Schumer said in a statement."
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_CHINA_TRADE?SITE=7219&SECTION=HOME&TEM- - PLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2006-02-14-10-46-24
Guess those xenophobes are thinking or pretending to be tightening up on some of that currency imbalance that doesn't exist--at least a couple people's minds.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
You do realize that China and Japan are two seperate countries, don't you?
-- Key difference: China fixes its exchange rates; Japan does not.
-- Both the US and Japan have currencies with floating exchange rates.
-- Both the US and Japan attempt to manage their currency's value to serve their objectives, but neither has much power to "manipulate" the value. Ultimately, both are subject to values given by the free market.
And remember:
-- There are NO Chinese cars being sold in the US today.
-- The topic of China is completely seperate. Toyota, Honda, etc. are NOT Chinese companies.
So why do you continue to confuse China with Japan? I know that they may look alike to you, but they are completely different nations. Get your atlas out, and this will become evident...
This thread is about auto's Korean and Japanese.. OK that's in line.. but China??
And why do so many people keep bringing up WalMart? What in the name of all that's good does this have to do with auto's.
It seems that whenever a valid point is brought up the knee-jer reaction is..
'Yeah, but WalMart ( fill in the blank )....' Soooo What?
Geez people learn to debate on the topic. Walmart and China have nothing to do with autos - except to increase our balance of trade - Japan, Korea, oil/fuel and the MidEast have everything to do with the topic.
Hint: Google ==> Rants ==> WalMart ( fill in the blank )
Come to think of it, what did Britney Spears do yesterday? Go for a drive in her foreign car?
OK now where does WalMart fit into this..? I'm sure it's there somewhere, right?
As interesting as a lot of this stuff is, we don't want to spin too far off into the non-automotive.
Most Dependable Manufacturers
Which vehicles produce the fewest problems in the first three years of ownership? In late June, J.D. Power and Associates released its 2005 Vehicle Dependability Study, which lists the Most Dependable Cars and Most Dependable Trucks in 19 defined vehicle segments for the 2002 model year. Based on problems reported per 100 vehicles, Lexus was the most dependable manufacturer for the 11th consecutive year.
Most Dependable Manufacturers
Performance by make is based on problems per 100 vehicles for all models; a lower score is better. The total industry average is 237, a decrease of 12 percent from 2004. Click on a manufacturer name to read the latest cars.com make report.
Nameplate Score
Lexus 139
Porsche 149
Lincoln 151
Buick 163
Cadillac 175
Infiniti 178
Toyota 194
Mercury 195
Honda 201
Acura 203
BMW 225
Ford 231
Chevrolet 232
Chrysler 235
Industry Average 237
Saturn 240
Oldsmobile* 242
GMC 245
Pontiac 245
Mazda 252
Hyundai 260
Subaru 260
Volvo 266
Jaguar 268
Dodge 273
Nissan 275
Mitsubishi 278
Mercedes-Benz 283
Saab 286
Jeep 289
Suzuki 292
Audi 312
Daewoo* 318
Isuzu 331
Volkswagen 335
Mini 383
Land Rover 395
Kia 397
*No longer producing new models
Source: J.D. Power and Associates 2005 Vehicle Dependability Study
The table represents the manufacturers whose vehicles had the fewest problems reported in the first three years of ownership, according to a vehicle dependability study by J.D. Power and Associates. More than 50,600 original vehicle owners of 2002-model-year cars and trucks were surveyed.
Last updated on 6/30/05
The data indicates Toyota / Honda are just mid-pack in those brands ranked ABOVE AVERAGE in dependability according to JD Power. Several domestics rank above Toyota / Honda.
I'm not saying Toyota / Honda make bad cars. I'm merely defending the domestics. They make good product too.
Some impressions I get from those listings:
First: As a class, the European makes have the 'worst' reliability, with BMW and Porsche being the only makes better than average.
Second: Typically, the 'prestige' nameplates from an automaker have higher reliability than the rest. (ie: Lexus better reliability than Toyota; Lincoln better than Mercury, which is in turn better than Ford; Buick/Cadillac better than Chevy; Infiniti better than Nissan; Chrysler better than Dodge....etc.). The only exception that I see to this rule is Honda has slightly better reliability than Acura.
Third: Of the most common makes, Toyota and Honda appear to have better reliability than the Big 3. Also, Ford/Chevy have virtually identical reliability ratings with Dodge a distant 3rd amoung the Big 3.
Forth: My earlier assessment of Volkswagon appears to be vindicated. If I remember correctly, it had some of the highest "Initial Quality" ratings, yet is behind Suzuki, Daewoo and Isuzu in the dependability rankings. More evidence that "Initial Quality" is NOT equal to dependability.
Is there anything here I'm missing?
??? Perhaps you're reading a different list than the rest of us?
Toyota and Honda rank above all of the bread-and-butter "domestics" to which they are most comparable, such as Chevy, Pontiac, Ford, Saturn and Dodge. This segment that most wants reliability is generally better served with the "foreign" cars (including those "foreign" makes made in the US.) Meanwhile, none of those middle-of-the-road "domestics" (which aren't always "domestics", of course) skews well above average -- they are about average at best.
As for Buick and Lincoln, their demographics are comprised largely of aging post-boomers who want traditional American style, i.e. a dying breed. It won't matter much if those premium cars are reliable if they lack the style and character desired by premium car buyers, and it certainly won't be of much help to middle-of-the-road and entry-level players such as the Cobalt if it is to compete effectively against the Civic or Corolla.
Yes.
Lincoln, Cadillac and Buick all had higher rankings than Toyota/Honda.
I'm not sure which Cadillacs/Buicks/Lincolns are going head to head with Camrys and Accords. (Although I'll admit some overlap between the Toyota Avalon and some Buicks). Keep in mind, the Toyota/Honda rankings include the very plentiful (and plebian) Civics and Corollas.
#2 I am simpily defending the economic attack on america. I am not a racist and have friends that are from various backgrounds. Many of them I have spoken to about these subjects and they are patriotic americans and want to see whats best for THEIR country too. I guess I'm a true isolationist and want to protect us from having secrets stolen by the chinese, japanese, middle easterners, and Lou Dobbs reported that the U.S. government knows of 4,000 front companies that's sole job is infiltrate U.S. military technology, such as one company trying to buy F-16 engines, which they caught.
BTW-I overheard Lou Dobbs yesterday talking about currency manipulation while taking care of the kids, and it's affect on domestic manufactors. I'm not sure how a country undervalues ones currency (The details)but hearing bits and pieces on that segment sounded like it's a real issue and shouldn't be ignored.
We drink oil at a huge rate and yes it's feeding our middle eastern enemy's. This is a real issue not just for the domestic manufactors, but for the U.S. government. We need to stop speaking rhetoric and deal with this real issue. That's been my biggest problem with are government of late. Lots of Rhetoric and no real solutions from either party.
Rocky
P.S. Yes giving tax deductions for someone buying any foreign car should be illegal!
(My isolationist/protectionist opinion)
Of course they won't vary much from whatever is deemed 'average'. The laws of statistics dictates that, since the 'domestics' represent the lionshare of everything on the road, WHATEVER their dependability rating is will be very close to the 'average'.
Er, can you explain how the Camry plant in Kentucky is jeopardizing national security? That's more than just a wee bit over the top...
Incorrect use of the stats. The figures are based upon the average number of problems per one hundred vehicles for each brand. Market share does nothing to affect this statistic.
But Rockylee, didn't you read the earlier posts that currency manipulation by China and Japan doesn't really occur?
Lou Dobbs must be wrong.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
(My isolationist/protectionist opinion)
This is illegal.. overspending on fuel.. unnecessarily. It provides money to our enemies. I am all for taking money out of the pocket of those who wont drive more efficiently. At 60000 Prius-units and $3150 per unit that's akin to taking about $200 Million after-tax dollars out of the pockets of those who wont go along with the President and Congress. That's $200 Million that doesnt go to OPEC and stays here. That's smart govt.
You are allowed to spend as much as you want on fuel and if you wish you can send additional donations to the Embassies of SA and Iran and Venezuela. I am certain your generosity will be well appreciated. That is your right under our law.
BTW on the direct subject:
Since 1985 the NA auto industry has grown nearly 40% in production. It is thriving, growing and extremely profitable. A few losers need to be restructured but that's always the case in a large market. Those associated with loss-generating companies will be hurt but again that is and always has been our way of doing business. This is not socialism it's capitalism. The efficient eat the less efficient.
Life goes on.
Generally speaking, the more isolationist a country or population/culture is, the closer to the stone age they are.
Take a good, hard look at the countries/cultures around the world. Identify which of those countries/cultures are the most 'isolationist', that hate 'outsiders', and generally wish the rest of the world would just go away. At the root of all feelings of 'isolationism' I believe you'll find fear and insecurity.
I can't help but hear a lot of that same mentallity being expressed in this forum. Just my non-isolationist/non-protectionist opinion.
One of the biggest problems I have with the mantra of 'Buy American' because it is the 'patriotic' thing to do is the unspoken assumption that one should 'buy American' DESPITE any shortcomings in the product.
Are you guys saying that, based purely on the product, American's CAN'T COMPETE? I don't hear many arguments that one should buy 'Domestic' because the product is better; all I hear is buy 'Domestic' because it's the 'right' thing to do.
Bull. We CAN build a better product. Not 'as good as', BETTER. And I refuse to let the 'domestics' skate by, year after year after year offering the same mediocre 'almost good enough' product, with constant promises of 'this one is better - this one will beat the imports' only to find out that the latest offering is just barely up to the standards of the competition which is due for the next generation.
In other words - identify and fix the problem; expecting the consumer to just OVERLOOK the problem in the name of 'patriotism' is just corporate suicide.
Since you're so knowledgable about this, why don't you explain how Japan "manipulates" the value of the yen any differently from how the US manages the value of the dollar?
(And have you figured out yet that Japan and China are seperate countries with different policies?)
Very true. And most often, they bear Toyota and Honda nameplates...
???
Say Brand 'X' sells 10,000 cars/year. They have an dependability of 50 problems /100 cars. Their rating is 50.
Brand 'Y' sells 10,000,000 cars/year. They have a dependability rating of 100 problems /100 cars. Their rating is 100.
The 'average' nationwide rating is NOT (50+100)/2 = 75.
The 'average' nationwide rating would be very close to 100, since there are MANY more cars on the road with a rating of 100 than there are with a rating of 50.
Case in point:
There are 5 major minivan models being built in the US for the US market all by US workers.
Two are considered to be at the pinnacle as #1 and #2;
One is very good and is in fact the industry leader;
Two are so horrible that no one is buying them and the factories making them are going to be shut.
The #1 and #2 models consistently sell at prices far above No's 4 & 5. Thus the US market says no matter at what price you try to sell us this junk we wont take it.
The more efficient eat the less efficient. America is better off with more people driving in better vehicles.
Life goes on.