You nailed in #933. No need to apologize -- if people are going to make inaccurate claims stated as fact on a public forum, they shouldn't be shocked when others challenge them.
For example, claiming that a car built overseas by Ford contributes less to the trade deficit than does a Honda built in Ohio is simply wrong. It's not a matter of a different opinion, but of offering a "fact" which is not a fact at all, and is in fact false.
That doesn't mean that we need to prefer the Honda to the Pontiac, or that there aren't factors to choose the Pontiac. But the "trade deficit" created by that unit of production is not one of them.
If say 50% of the content in the Fusion is from US suppliers would that not be part of the US export totals? Wouldn't that offset the import value of the final assembled car back to the US. Wouldn't that also work for Ford and GM cars assembled in Canada. Don't forget we also export components to make the Buicks in China. GM exports Cadillacs CTS, SRX and STS to China. What about American owned suppliers who have set up companies in China. Can we count them as domestic content since the profit comes back to the US? This forum is stuck on Japanese cars assembled in America but, what about the American cars assembled in China, India, Germany, Brazil etc. These cars may not get imported to the US but many common platform vehicles share parts that originate in the US. This is a world economy the country of origin is all relative. We will continue to have a trade deficit as manufacturing moves overseas.
If say 50% of the content in the Fusion is from US suppliers would that not be part of the US export totals? Wouldn't that offset the import value of the final assembled car back to the US.
The value of the US/ Canadian parts content (which in the case of the Fusion is 30%) would count as an export, while the entire value of the car would count as an import.
On the whole, we can expect a car built outside of the US to contribute to the trade deficit, because it's a safe bet that the value of the fully-assembled imported car is going to exceed the value of the parts that were exported to build it. (Mathematically, this makes sense -- to use simple numbers, you wouldn't use $150 worth of parts to build a car that's worth $100.)
Good questions for discussion. However if none of us is a Ford accountant all of it will be opinion and guesses.
What is fact though: Parts made in the US and exported to Mexico are neutral for the trade deficit. A $100 goes out and the same $100 part comes back in. How many of these $100 parts there are are a closely guarded secret at Ford.
Labor is 100% benficial to the Mexican economy. The buyer here pays for it.
Plant construction and overhead and taxes in Mexico are 100% beneficial to the Mexican economy. The buyer here pays for it.
Transportation and distribution in Mexico benefit the Mexican economy. The buyer here pays.
Transportation and distribution in the US benefit the US economy.
Ditto in Canada.
US parts exported to China benefit our balance of trade.
American companies set up in China to build vehicles staying in China do nothing for our balance of trade, except possibly for using US parts as noted above.
Vehicle made in the US, Caddy's, Accords, Camry's, Rams etc but exported to Canada, Mexico and China all benefit our balance of trade.
All vehicles made in Europe, Japan, Australia and India which use no US content, even if owned by US companies, hurt our balance of trade. ( MB, BMW, Volvo, Jag, VW, Audi, Toyota, Honda, Land Rover, Hyundai, GM, Ford ).
The design and development of those GM and Ford And Chrysler cars built in other countries is being done by the company and part of that would be here. They are not totally designing a car for China in China...
I seriously doubt that it's true for Volvo's, Saab's, Land Rover's, GTO's. As a matter of fact GM and Ford have gone out of their way to say that certain platforms and vehicles are based on their European-designed vehicles.
GM and Ford are more and more subcontracting out the design of these world platforms. Frankly the Euro's have had much better success developing smaller platforms while the Americans do better developing the larger ones for use here.
Yeah, part of design and R&D takes place here. But that's true of most transplants too. I think some of the transplants could totally cut themselves off from their parent company and do just fine as self-contained American companies.
It's amazing how atomized and spread out the whole process is. In Taiwan, my uncle works at a small company that does portions of design work for GM (like changing design features on the Buick Excelle for different markets in Asia) and some testing. His department consists of like... a dozen people. I'm sure there are operations that small all over the world, for every manufacturer. (The Excelle is a rebadged Daewoo Nubira.)
The design and development of those GM and Ford And Chrysler cars built in other countries is being done by the company and part of that would be here.
Not necessarily so. These companies have R&D occurring in many parts of the world, they certainly don't source all of it in the US.
And have you forgotten that Chrysler is headquartered in Stuttgart?
Yeah, part of design and R&D takes place here. But that's true of most transplants too.
Exactly. Take the Honda Accord, which was designed specifically for the North American market, and included US R&D.
(The rest of the world's Honda Accord is rebadged here as an Acura TSX. In much of the world, the US Accord would be a fairly large car and not well suited to their needs.)
"GM and Ford are more and more subcontracting out the design of these world platforms. Frankly the Euro's have had much better success developing smaller platforms while the Americans do better developing the larger ones for use here."
Which brings up an interesting point.
In Europe, Ford and GM are 'import' brands just as Toyota and Honda are imports. They can't fall back on the issue of 'partiotism' to sell cars in Europe; their products must compete based on their intrinsic values.
If Ford and GM can compete well in Europe with Toyota and Honda, why can't they do the same here?
Historically, where the 'imports' have killed the domestic offerings has been in the small car market. Why did the domestics give up this market to the imports when they ALREADY HAD decent offerings in this market from their European divisions? Why do we STILL have the previous generation Focus in this country, which doesn't match up as well with the latest from the Japanese nameplates, while Ford of Europe has the new Focus which DOES match up well?
I was involved directly in supplying 2 of the Big 3 back in the 80's and early 90's, and the other indirectly, on $10's of Millions of basic steel. This was at the time that the CamCords were just beginning to take off and the Taurus was No 1 by a stupid margin.
There was all kinds of meetings and discussions and visits ( Iacocca to Japan ) to find a solution.
For those unaware these things are always settled 'out-of-court' by mutual agreement. There were threats of additional penalties/duties to be put on all Japanese vehicles but Detroit and DC and Tokyo came to an agreement that a 25% penalty would be levied on all imported trucks but threre would be no penalties on Japanese autos.
The thinking in Detroit was ... 'Hah.. gotem. Now they are forced into the low margin small auto sector and we've got the high margin truck/SUV market to ourselves' And for nearly 20 years F/GM/DCX have made all the money in this sector.
Ooops they missed it when Lexus created the car-based Rx300 and Toyota the RAV and the Highlander and Honda the CR-V, but who cares, the Exploder and the Excursion and the Suburban and Grand Cherokee are way more profitable.
Auto's? Why? Do you realize how hard it is to make money on a $14000 auto when the same resources can be used to make a $35000 SUV/Truck.
Toyota is building the Tundra here? So what it's too small and 'our' buyers will never leave us. The Tacoma and te Frontier are the best 'compact' trucks in the US now; the Ridgeline is the MT ToTY; the Titan is more powerful than..? So what 'our' buyers will never leave us.
Gasoline just hit $3.25 a gallon! OMG what are we going to do now that we are dependent on SUV's and trucks for all our profits. Heck we are behind Hyundai in meeting the auto needs of the majority of the US market.
But for 20 yrs life was good. Uhhh Rick would you please fix this mess.
Why did the domestics give up this market to the imports when they ALREADY HAD decent offerings in this market from their European divisions?
Given Ford's consistent failures to create a "world car" with cars such as the Escort, I'd guess that the Big 2.5 presume that Americans want "small cars" that are larger and softer riding than what is offered by their European divisions.
And to be fair, the Japanese makers don't have nearly the success in Europe that they do in the US -- the cars often get mediocre reviews in their press, reliability does not have the same emphasis among European consumers and patriotism does play a role in some markets, such as Italy and France, in which FIAT, Peugeot, Citreon and Renault command larger market shares than they do elsewhere. In addition, Ford and GM (Vauxhall and Opel) have been part of their domestic car markets for so long that they are not regarded as "foreign" by their local consumers.
Still, I cannot understand why Ford and GM can't do what firms such as VW, BMW, Mercedes, etc. have been doing for a very long time -- sell all but their smallest cars in the US, and offer those cars sold here with only the larger engine choices and with a higher level of standard equipment. VW was once the dominant small car leader in the US, and may have remained so after the initial success of the Rabbit had reliability not become such a problem. (As VW, Fiat, Peugeot and Hyundai all show, no manufacturer in the US market can get away with selling an unreliable car for very long.)
"And to be fair, the Japanese makers don't have nearly the success in Europe that they do in the US.."
True, but immaterial to the point I was trying to make.
In Europe, Ford/GM must rely less on the 'patriotism' issue to be competitive with the Asian makes and must rely more so on their strength of product.
I think kdspyder hit the nail on the head; the Domestic brands essentially made a conscience decision to abandon the small car market in the '80s and '90s because it wasn't profitable enough. Personally, I believe that Ford/GM CAN compete (and compete well) in this segment - as evidenced by the cars they sell overseas.
So why do they INSIST on selling the 2nd tier stuff in this country?
True, but immaterial to the point I was trying to make.
My point was that the cars and features that are often appealing to American consumers don't necessarily work abroad, so simply bringing European-market Fords and Opels to the US may not be the answer to the Big 2.5's problems.
For example, consider the VW Jetta and Golf -- Americans vastly prefer the Jetta, while the Golf is the overwhelming preference of Europeans. Americans consider hatches to be low-rent, while Europeans like the versatility and storage capacity. On the whole, American buyers are far fonder of Civics and Corollas than are the Europeans.
I think kdspyder hit the nail on the head; the Domestic brands essentially made a conscience decision to abandon the small car market in the '80s and '90s because it wasn't profitable enough.
I agree completely with that. The Big 2.5 simply didn't care, because of the lower margins and because Americans have had low fuel prices and high disposable income, which prompt most consumers to buy larger cars when possible. Accountants like per-unit margin; unfortunately, creating products that can snare customers while they're young isn't directly accounted for on either an income statement or a balance sheet.
Just because a car is successful against the competition in Europe doesn't mean the same car would be successful against the same competition in the U.S.
Because of this Japanese policy, the Toyota/Honda/Nissan plants here in the U.S., and the cars/trucks built in them, have EVERYTHING to do with our current trade deficit.
That's factually incorrect. A car built in the US with US parts does not contribute to the trade deficit, except for the value of the parts that are imported. (And that difference could be negated by exporting that car to a foreign market.)
For you to believe otherwise is an indication that you don't understand that a "trade deficit" is defined as the difference between the value of goods imported and exported.
-- When Honda exports a Civic made in Ohio, that reduces the trade deficit. --When Pontiac imports a GTO from Australia, that increases the trade deficit.
Those two points are facts, not opinions. That's the formula by which the balance of trade is calculated.
By the way, the Big 2.5 do just fine in Europe, China, Africa, etc. GM's worldwide sales were up +2% for 2005 due to the strength of sales in China and Latin America.
The irony is that GM is selling Asian-made cars in the PRC. No American blue collar workers earning wages from any of those sales.
====================
please reiterate your logic against this argument because it is pretty solid—i think i heard... opinion and not fact? el oh el! are we calling economics opinion now? how about the factories the 2.5 have in Mexico? id like to go further but the fact is ford is cutting 35000 jobs and toyota is building a plant in kentucky
Refer to post #931 and get back on track with the subject, will ya ?
#931 basically translates as "Don't confuse me with the facts. Don't correct or contradict me, even when I'm clearly incorrect."
I still want to know why Chrysler, headquartered in Germany, is more "American" than is Honda that is headquartered in Japan, or why a GM car imported from Mexico is more "American" than a Toyota built right here in the US.
You see it has nothing to do with Chrysler being more American then Toyota, but it has to do with the fact that Chrysler has UAW workers and Toyota does not. You see according to UAW, only UAW made cars are considered "Domestic" and all other cars not matter where they are made are considered "Import." This is because UAW members consider them selfs to be more American then non-union Americans who work for Toyota and Honda.
I think the formula is something like this: 1.745 American Workers = 1 UAW worker.
You see according to the above formula, UAW made Dodge is domestic because its 'more American', but Alabama (UAW free) built Mercedes ML350 is imported because its 'less American'.
To some it means buying Big 3 vehicles and supporting an american buisness.
To others it means buying vehicles assembled here in the U.S. and yes most do have U.S. auto suppliers parts in them.(U.S. Content)
The way this is shaping up to me is that we have the import, asian, pro free traders vs. domestic, american, anti-free traders.
The bottom line is this:
If you believe in making the Asians very wealthy and a world super-power that will eventually take us over so you can save a buck at the cash register, then you shouldn't care where the (product/good) is made and keep buying imports.
If your a true patriot that runs more than "skin deep" then you will buy "american made" goods, made by domestic manufactors no matter how inferior it is or expensive.
I can't believe how you import lovers "SPIN" or "JUSTIFY" your purchase of a import to make yourself feel good. Why can't the truth be good enough ????? The truth is for most is buying the product that they thought was the best, or what their neighbor drove or reccommended. None of this Hawg-Wash on it being "more american made" than a GM, Ford, Chrysler, because we know that's B.S. and not the truth
Yes my response is arrogant, just like your justification for buying a import. :P
You see it has nothing to do with Chrysler being more American then Toyota, but it has to do with the fact that Chrysler has UAW workers and Toyota does not. You see according to UAW, only UAW made cars are considered "Domestic" and all other cars not matter where they are made are considered "Import."
You see UAW made Dodge is domestic, but Alabama built Mercedes ML350 is imported, because in Mercedes plant in Alabama there is no UAW.
I hope that this clarifies it for you.
When did the UAWEVER say something like that :confuse:
If you believe in making the Asians very wealthy and a world super-power that will eventually take us over so you can save a buck at the cash register, then you shouldn't care where the (product/good) is made and keep buying imports.
If your a true patriot that runs more than "skin deep" then you will buy "american made" goods, made by domestic manufactors no matter how inferior it is or expensive.
I can't believe how you import lovers "SPIN" or "JUSTIFY" your purchase of a import to make yourself feel good. Why can't the truth be good enough ?????
You opinion is noted.. and it will be given it's due consideration. Please note that the auto workers in Alabama who are every bit as patriotic as you may have a different opinion.
Your highlighted statement is frankly hilarious and unbelievable really. Do you actually believe this?
Your response isn't arrogant... it's beyond that.. but no matter, what is downright scary is that it could be indicative of the views are of the UAW workers assembling 'Domestic' vehicles. :surprise: YIKES!!!
Maybe the UAW won't be asking you to be the poster child for it's next promotion
The truth is for most is buying the product that they thought was the best, or what their neighbor drove or reccommended. None of this Hawg-Wash on it being "more american made" than a GM, Ford, Chrysler, because we know that's B.S. and not the truth
I can understand that 'the truth', in your opinion, has been formed by your background and family situation so it's perfectly understandable.
Just consider, for a moment, that your version of 'the truth' is not the opinion of someone who has a different family background than yours. Their version is that the Detroit based automakers have mismanaged the assets in their care thereby hurting their workers.
Some people in TN and MS and AL are very very happy about this mismanagement. ( not to mention whole extended families in Mexico now working - plus the 5 jobs each auto job generates ). To them that is 'the truth'.
Yes it is the views of not only people working on the assembly line at a big 3 plant, but the views of people working in domestic manufactoring here in the good ol' U.S. of A. !!!!!!
Do you really honestly think the workers like those of the UAW trying to put food on the table for their wife and kids, working their butts off on a assembly line in a U.S. manufactoring plant are "excited" you just went to Walley World and purchased another product that was "made in china" ????
Your answer is a big "NO" My father and I for one buys "Made in America" clothes, appliances, and any other good we can find made in this country to support american workers and their family. If that product is made in the states and is made by a foreign company with no U.S. company alternative, then we are stuck with supporting the company that is foreign owned but provides U.S. jobs. THAT IS TRUE PATRIOTISM THAT RUNS THROUGH OUR VEINS Seriously I know I was blunt, but some of you are "spinning" this topic to heights. The average Accord buyer didn't buy the car because it was made in Marysville Ohio. Saying that was your "main reason" for purchase is absolutely false and yes I'm going to call those that are spinning it that way on it.
Yes it is the views of not only people working on the assembly line at a big 3 plant, but the views of people working in domestic manufactoring here in the good ol' U.S. of A. !!!!!!
Are you sure of this?... Did you happen to inquire of the people working on the lines in Smyrna or Fremont? Are you sure that this isnt just your family's opinion and possibly not the 'truth'.
Oh.. you continue to bring up the subject of WalMart. You are aware of course that GM ( Aveo ) is the WallyWorld of the US auto industry, foisting its cheap trinkets from Korea on the hard working American public. That must be tough to reconcile at home.
BTW your statement before was scary if someone was thinking about buying a domestic vehicle.
Just because a few foreign company's like Mercedes, Hyundai, BMW set up (1) plant doesn't give them the right to be called "Made in the USA" Toyota, Honda, are much more American Made than all three of them.
The Money of all still goes back to their homeland which doesn't help the U.S. government and it's people. Yes a small percentage (especially the Japanese) gets invested in R&D facilities in the U.S.
However it still doesn't off-set the catastrophic affects it's having on the Big 3 and anyone believing the Japanese auto-manufactors with their corruption of "currency manipulation" and our stupid leaders in washington "lending them a helping hand" with free taxes is unamerican and especially unpatriotic. Your not seeing the same approach taken by the Japanese government of helping GM sell cars in Japan are you. We can argue all you want about how "they" (U.S. domestic cars) wouldn't sell in Japan, but it's still the principle.
BTW your statement before was scary if someone was thinking about buying a domestic vehicle.
Why would it be scary ????
Regardless people like you won't buy Big 3 cars and wish they'd ceize to exist !!!!! You and others are pro-imports and wouldn't cross shop a U.S. domestic no matter what the big 3 builds.
I don't support the Chevy Aveo and hope it fails. I never said GM and their management team is perfect.
I'm just saying why buy a import that feeds are enemy's enough wealth to detroy us, when you can buy an american alternative that supports the wealth of a fellow american and his community ! This just doesn't apply to cars.
I'm sticking up for the few posters like (bmk32) that got hammered and attacked, while I was away because they feel this way. Ya'll were like sharks smelling blood.
To some it means buying Big 3 vehicles and supporting an american buisness.
That doesn't answer the question. So let's repeat it:
What is an American business?
Is Chrysler an American business? It is headquartered in Germany.
Are Ford and GM American businesses? Their stockholders include European investment banks, and they build plenty of product and higher plenty of workers outside the US, while they work aggressively to reduce US-based employment?
Are Toyota and Honda foreign businesses? They are increasing their US workforces, from assembly to R&D, and have their stock owned by numerous American investors. They are also increasing their US presence and investment, and plan to hire more workers while the Big 2 cut jobs.
So which one is American? You seem to define "American" as the company that outsources and fires your own people.
If you believe in making the Asians very wealthy and a world super-power that will eventually take us over so you can save a buck at the cash register, then you shouldn't care where the (product/good) is made and keep buying imports.
Well, I figured we'd end up here. Just one question -- if you want to wage WWII over again, why don't you fear the same thing coming from German-based Chrysler?
It's not just mine or my family's opinion kdhspyder. It's the opinions of millions that are yes in the minority that work in american manufactoring facilities or have relatives, family, friends, such as I in those sectors. We take the invasion of buying imports seriously. You would feel sorry for my wife, when she brings something home made in China. I get really upset at her if she didn't hunt for an american made alternative.
Regardless people like you won't buy Big 3 cars and wish they'd ceize to exist !!!!! You and others are pro-imports and wouldn't cross shop a U.S. domestic no matter what the big 3 builds
Actually this is far from the 'truth', but you are entitled to your opinion. I am just extremely critical of bad business, from both management and workers. Bad business should not be tolerated. You wouldn't go to a heart surgeon who was a 'butcher' with a known track record of operations gone bad would you?
You saw my post #944 above. I was closely involved at Dearborn, Auburn Hills, Toledo, Chicago Height, Balt Truck& Bus and others for a long long time. I probably have as good a feel for them as you and your family does. Bad business should not be rewarded.
The real bottom line is American automakers failed to engineer many new cars that can set new bench marks. Although American automakers are creating much better products than before, their competitors had heading for new grounds already. If American automakers want to have 60% market share again, they have to build their new generation cars that can set a new class standard, not blaming on competitors or boasting on improvements. In reality, no one buy into the second best or near perfect, only winner takes all. If American cars can only catch up to the current generation of their competition (that can be good sign, but not good enough), they will have no hope in winning sales volume in their lifecycles.
Is Chrysler an American business? It is headquartered in Germany.
The Diamler part yes is headquartered in Germany. The Chrysler part is headquarted in Detroit still which makes it an american buisness that merged with Mercedes Benz.
Are Ford and GM American businesses?
Yes more so than Diamler Chrysler since they are independently owned by U.S. citizens(majority of shareholders)
Their stockholders include European investment banks, and they build plenty of product and higher plenty of workers outside the US, while they work aggressively to reduce US-based employment?
While they work to agressively reduce US-based employment-
Yes they are reducing U.S. based employment for a variety of reasons. Losses in marketshare due to the import crowd that has been brainwashed to believe that a Toyota or Honda is inferior to lets say a Buick. The Japanese don't have the responsibility to retired workers therefore they have a cost advantage. They (Asains) also get away with currency manipulation, which further makes the cost to produce even cheaper. Free tax give aways by the government and it's community's. New domestic plants are much more efficient and it takes less man-power to build a automobile.
-Do to all of these components and a corrupt government not willing to protect american buisness we are seeing the domestic manufactors have no choice but to lay-off good paid, good americans that will hurt many community's.
Are Toyota and Honda foreign businesses?
Yes they are foreign buisnesses because they are Japanese owned and the revenues go back to Japan.
They are increasing their US workforces, from assembly to R&D, and have their stock owned by numerous American investors. They are also increasing their US presence and investment, and plan to hire more workers while the Big 2 cut jobs.
They are allowed to undercut the Big 3 with currency manipulation, no legacy costs to it's retirees, and a "perception" propaganda machine better than Joseph Goebels that has brain washed many into the belief that a car with Toyota or Honda on the back is inferior to it's american competition. Free taxes from are corrupt government has allowed even more R&D and is why they have moved from Japan to U.S. -Hell they gotta be laughing all the way to the bank with the lack of human rights. The latest thing proposed by republicans in Washington was a reduction in ergonomic controls since it's reducing "parts per hundred, per hour" :mad:
So which one is American? You seem to define "American" as the company that outsources and fires your own people.
Well when you have a un-level playing field to compete in the guy with all the advantages is going win. I explained the advantages above. GM, Ford, Chrysler hasn't fired it's employees. It simpily has laid them off with severance packages. Ford has already offered a nice package. The Big 3 also still out employs the Asians by hundreds of thousands of workers. I guess you never to that into account.
Well, I figured we'd end up here. Just one question -- if you want to wage WWII over again, why don't you fear the same thing coming from German-based Chrysler?
Well the Germans are much more pro-american than the Asians, this is based upon many of my relatives visiting each country and how they were recieved by the populus. the "old" Germans told my Uncle who was stationed in Germany that they were thankful the U.S. rescued them from Hitler. The other thing is ethnic backgrounds, which is still a real issue. We have lots of German decendants such as my family's heritage living in this country. Alot more than the asians
What's the difference between the Aveo that you seem to hate and the imported Hyundai's you seem to support ?
You can't have it both ways there kdyspyder !
Toyota imports cars & trucks, Nissan imports, Mitsu, Ford & DCX all import, so why is GM your scapegoat ?
It's a GLOBAL industry. All of the manufacturers have plants around the globe and support automotive demand in every country of the world, oh, but the lone exception is Japan, they're afraid of competition in Japan.
Well the Germans are much more pro-american than the Asians, this is based upon many of my relatives visiting each country and how they were recieved by the populus. the "old" Germans told my Uncle who was stationed in Germany that they were thankful the U.S. rescued them from Hitler. The other thing is ethnic backgrounds, which is still a real issue. We have lots of German decendants such as my family's heritage living in this country. Alot more than the asians
So it's a race war, is it? Somehow I figured that this was the real bottom line for some of you.
The Sonata's are made in Alabama and we are all better for it. The Aveo's are made in Korea and they do not help us at all. To use your argument your wife would get an earful if she considered buying a GM Aveo right?
Just to be sure I understand your PoV. It is OK for GM to import the Aveo it's not a big deal to emulate WalMart?
I'm glad you are beginning to see the 'global' picture.
Well the Germans are much more pro-american than the Asians, this is based upon many of my relatives visiting each country and how they were recieved by the populus. the "old" Germans told my Uncle who was stationed in Germany that they were thankful the U.S. rescued them from Hitler. The other thing is ethnic backgrounds, which is still a real issue. We have lots of German decendants such as my family's heritage living in this country. Alot more than the asians
Aha, the real 'truth' comes out. Now I am positively certain the UAW doesnt want you as their poster child in the future. You do have some special 'opinions'. I will say that for you.
People here do buy Corollas, Vibes, and Tacomas because their friends and family built them (and because they're good enough that no one feels like they're getting short-changed). With the money the workers make, they're able to buy houses - even in this area!
You can tell us we're supporting Japan all you want. We can see the positive effects of the plant for ourselves. And no one really cares if it's Yoshi Inaba (Toyota's CEO), Jim Press (Toyota's US Sales CEO - obviously Japanese), or Rick Wagoner who gets the big bucks. They're all pretty far removed from us. But if you believe in meritocracy at all, making Rick and friends rich sounds like a really silly idea.
You didn't answer my question, what's the difference between the IMPORTED Hyundia's (not the ones made here in Alabama) that your posts all appear to support (or lets just say imports in General, not just Hyundia, you appear to favor imports) but when it comes to GM and the imported Aveo you spew venom ?
If you're so pro-Global, pro-cheaper prices and anti-UAW, seems to me you wouldn't give a rats behind where the Aveo came from.
We have alot of good pro-american Japanese citizens and you took what I said way out of context.
Well, here's what you said:
We have lots of German decendants such as my family's heritage living in this country. Alot more than the asians
Yep, in your mind, white guys make Chrysler more "American" than any other foreign company.
By the way, here are the top stockholders in Honda, for one example. (Hope they're foreign enough for you):
Dodge & Cox Inc Morgan Stanley Sound Shore Management, Inc. Lord Abbett & Co AXA Fifth Third Bancorp Greenhaven Associates, Inc. Schneider Capital Management, L.P. Wells Fargo & Company JP Morgan Chase & Company
There is no place where I said I supported importing from Korea. I am against that for the benefit of the US. I think we can make any vehicle better or as well as any country in the world. I dont think you'll find my words anywhere advocating importing from Korea.
Since you wont be able to find these words you will be asking..'So what are you for?'
US Jobs.
I posed a question to you yesterday that you've overlooked. What has happened over the last 20 yrs to NA Lt Truck and Auto production? any idea?
So you are saying that the Asian view of America is the same as the German view. If you truely honestly believe that the Asian view of the United States is the same positive view that the German people have on the U.S. you are truely -> :confuse:
I love how some of you spin what people say and take it out of context. I guess I should be use to this by now.
Rocky
P.S. Chrysler has a very diversified workforce employed at their many plants. So the White-guy theory your trying to spin on me is absolutely false.
That's exactly right. His true anti-union feelings would make you assume he would be Pro-Aveo. Just like socala4's, they both are true believers that if it's made in Japan, it must be better because the "asian I.Q." is higher than the american.
Would you have the same opinion in the following scenario? I am a musician in a band on a major label. {name withheld for privacy} Would you buy my CD because I'm an American citizen, or would you rather have music by Elton John, the Who, or the Beatles?
they both are true believers that if it's made in Japan, it must be better because the "asian I.Q." is higher than the american.
Reading comp needed work needed some work in school? From which words do you arrive at your conclusion? I believe my post says..
US jobs..
Ahh btw, I grew up in a union household with my father being VP of the local. I'm just aware of many of the shortcomings let's say. As I stated before I am just against rewarding bad business be it Management or Union.
Your opinion then, from your post #968 , is that since it's a world market that products should be able to be imported from all over? Aveo's from Korea for GM and socks from China for WallyWorld? There's really no difference is there?
I'm just saying why buy a import that feeds are enemy's enough wealth to detroy us, when you can buy an american alternative that supports the wealth of a fellow american and his community ! This just doesn't apply to cars.
You really do believe this dont you? Everyone outside your family is an enemy. You are very very scary, you know that.
Which enemy is it exactly that is trying to destroy you?
(bmk32) was just taken to task for presenting his opinions, valid as they are, as facts. It's always been clear that your views are only opinions so there is no controversy.
You really do believe this dont you? Everyone outside your family is an enemy. You are very very scary, you know that.
Which enemy is it exactly that is trying to destroy you?
I as american trust the asians, especially the chinese, about as far as I could throw one. I never said everyone outside my family is an enemy. Those are your words and not mine. My distrust especially from the Big Red Machine (China) was their threats against the U.S. if we protected Taiwan if they invaded them.
If americans buy Chinese cars and products they are simpily supporting there military and political ambitions. We have the freedom of choice. Some of us make the right decision, and others make the wrong decision based on variety of personal choices.
The Japanese realize they can dominate us not by war, but by manipulating there currency, controling us economically, and buying propaganda machines like car editors that are "experts". We have a few in our society that honestly believe that americans, and american buisness's aren't as smart as our world competitors and make inferior products for their consumption based on distorted facts. That might of been the case a decade ago, but that perception is no longer true as many of you still want to believe.
I am tired of arguing about this subject and going to let it die with my final post on this subject. We obviously aren't going to change each other minds on this subject so lets go back to atleast arguing whats the better car. Camcord vs. G6 is a much better arguement then the politics side in the Buying American cars and what it means.
Comments
For example, claiming that a car built overseas by Ford contributes less to the trade deficit than does a Honda built in Ohio is simply wrong. It's not a matter of a different opinion, but of offering a "fact" which is not a fact at all, and is in fact false.
That doesn't mean that we need to prefer the Honda to the Pontiac, or that there aren't factors to choose the Pontiac. But the "trade deficit" created by that unit of production is not one of them.
The value of the US/ Canadian parts content (which in the case of the Fusion is 30%) would count as an export, while the entire value of the car would count as an import.
On the whole, we can expect a car built outside of the US to contribute to the trade deficit, because it's a safe bet that the value of the fully-assembled imported car is going to exceed the value of the parts that were exported to build it. (Mathematically, this makes sense -- to use simple numbers, you wouldn't use $150 worth of parts to build a car that's worth $100.)
What is fact though:
Parts made in the US and exported to Mexico are neutral for the trade deficit. A $100 goes out and the same $100 part comes back in. How many of these $100 parts there are are a closely guarded secret at Ford.
Labor is 100% benficial to the Mexican economy. The buyer here pays for it.
Plant construction and overhead and taxes in Mexico are 100% beneficial to the Mexican economy. The buyer here pays for it.
Transportation and distribution in Mexico benefit the Mexican economy. The buyer here pays.
Transportation and distribution in the US benefit the US economy.
Ditto in Canada.
US parts exported to China benefit our balance of trade.
American companies set up in China to build vehicles staying in China do nothing for our balance of trade, except possibly for using US parts as noted above.
Vehicle made in the US, Caddy's, Accords, Camry's, Rams etc but exported to Canada, Mexico and China all benefit our balance of trade.
All vehicles made in Europe, Japan, Australia and India which use no US content, even if owned by US companies, hurt our balance of trade. ( MB, BMW, Volvo, Jag, VW, Audi, Toyota, Honda, Land Rover, Hyundai, GM, Ford ).
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I seriously doubt that it's true for Volvo's, Saab's, Land Rover's, GTO's. As a matter of fact GM and Ford have gone out of their way to say that certain platforms and vehicles are based on their European-designed vehicles.
GM and Ford are more and more subcontracting out the design of these world platforms. Frankly the Euro's have had much better success developing smaller platforms while the Americans do better developing the larger ones for use here.
It's amazing how atomized and spread out the whole process is. In Taiwan, my uncle works at a small company that does portions of design work for GM (like changing design features on the Buick Excelle for different markets in Asia) and some testing. His department consists of like... a dozen people. I'm sure there are operations that small all over the world, for every manufacturer. (The Excelle is a rebadged Daewoo Nubira.)
Not necessarily so. These companies have R&D occurring in many parts of the world, they certainly don't source all of it in the US.
And have you forgotten that Chrysler is headquartered in Stuttgart?
Exactly. Take the Honda Accord, which was designed specifically for the North American market, and included US R&D.
(The rest of the world's Honda Accord is rebadged here as an Acura TSX. In much of the world, the US Accord would be a fairly large car and not well suited to their needs.)
Which brings up an interesting point.
In Europe, Ford and GM are 'import' brands just as Toyota and Honda are imports. They can't fall back on the issue of 'partiotism' to sell cars in Europe; their products must compete based on their intrinsic values.
If Ford and GM can compete well in Europe with Toyota and Honda, why can't they do the same here?
Historically, where the 'imports' have killed the domestic offerings has been in the small car market. Why did the domestics give up this market to the imports when they ALREADY HAD decent offerings in this market from their European divisions? Why do we STILL have the previous generation Focus in this country, which doesn't match up as well with the latest from the Japanese nameplates, while Ford of Europe has the new Focus which DOES match up well?
There was all kinds of meetings and discussions and visits ( Iacocca to Japan ) to find a solution.
For those unaware these things are always settled 'out-of-court' by mutual agreement. There were threats of additional penalties/duties to be put on all Japanese vehicles but Detroit and DC and Tokyo came to an agreement that a 25% penalty would be levied on all imported trucks but threre would be no penalties on Japanese autos.
The thinking in Detroit was ... 'Hah.. gotem. Now they are forced into the low margin small auto sector and we've got the high margin truck/SUV market to ourselves' And for nearly 20 years F/GM/DCX have made all the money in this sector.
Ooops they missed it when Lexus created the car-based Rx300 and Toyota the RAV and the Highlander and Honda the CR-V, but who cares, the Exploder and the Excursion and the Suburban and Grand Cherokee are way more profitable.
Auto's? Why?
Do you realize how hard it is to make money on a $14000 auto when the same resources can be used to make a $35000 SUV/Truck.
Toyota is building the Tundra here?
So what it's too small and 'our' buyers will never leave us.
The Tacoma and te Frontier are the best 'compact' trucks in the US now; the Ridgeline is the MT ToTY; the Titan is more powerful than..?
So what 'our' buyers will never leave us.
Gasoline just hit $3.25 a gallon! OMG what are we going to do now that we are dependent on SUV's and trucks for all our profits. Heck we are behind Hyundai in meeting the auto needs of the majority of the US market.
But for 20 yrs life was good. Uhhh Rick would you please fix this mess.
Given Ford's consistent failures to create a "world car" with cars such as the Escort, I'd guess that the Big 2.5 presume that Americans want "small cars" that are larger and softer riding than what is offered by their European divisions.
And to be fair, the Japanese makers don't have nearly the success in Europe that they do in the US -- the cars often get mediocre reviews in their press, reliability does not have the same emphasis among European consumers and patriotism does play a role in some markets, such as Italy and France, in which FIAT, Peugeot, Citreon and Renault command larger market shares than they do elsewhere. In addition, Ford and GM (Vauxhall and Opel) have been part of their domestic car markets for so long that they are not regarded as "foreign" by their local consumers.
Still, I cannot understand why Ford and GM can't do what firms such as VW, BMW, Mercedes, etc. have been doing for a very long time -- sell all but their smallest cars in the US, and offer those cars sold here with only the larger engine choices and with a higher level of standard equipment. VW was once the dominant small car leader in the US, and may have remained so after the initial success of the Rabbit had reliability not become such a problem. (As VW, Fiat, Peugeot and Hyundai all show, no manufacturer in the US market can get away with selling an unreliable car for very long.)
True, but immaterial to the point I was trying to make.
In Europe, Ford/GM must rely less on the 'patriotism' issue to be competitive with the Asian makes and must rely more so on their strength of product.
I think kdspyder hit the nail on the head; the Domestic brands essentially made a conscience decision to abandon the small car market in the '80s and '90s because it wasn't profitable enough. Personally, I believe that Ford/GM CAN compete (and compete well) in this segment - as evidenced by the cars they sell overseas.
So why do they INSIST on selling the 2nd tier stuff in this country?
My point was that the cars and features that are often appealing to American consumers don't necessarily work abroad, so simply bringing European-market Fords and Opels to the US may not be the answer to the Big 2.5's problems.
For example, consider the VW Jetta and Golf -- Americans vastly prefer the Jetta, while the Golf is the overwhelming preference of Europeans. Americans consider hatches to be low-rent, while Europeans like the versatility and storage capacity. On the whole, American buyers are far fonder of Civics and Corollas than are the Europeans.
I think kdspyder hit the nail on the head; the Domestic brands essentially made a conscience decision to abandon the small car market in the '80s and '90s because it wasn't profitable enough.
I agree completely with that. The Big 2.5 simply didn't care, because of the lower margins and because Americans have had low fuel prices and high disposable income, which prompt most consumers to buy larger cars when possible. Accountants like per-unit margin; unfortunately, creating products that can snare customers while they're young isn't directly accounted for on either an income statement or a balance sheet.
Just because a car is successful against the competition in Europe doesn't mean the same car would be successful against the same competition in the U.S.
Agreed - makes perfect sense.
========================
Because of this Japanese policy, the Toyota/Honda/Nissan plants here in the U.S., and the cars/trucks built in them, have EVERYTHING to do with our current trade deficit.
That's factually incorrect. A car built in the US with US parts does not contribute to the trade deficit, except for the value of the parts that are imported. (And that difference could be negated by exporting that car to a foreign market.)
For you to believe otherwise is an indication that you don't understand that a "trade deficit" is defined as the difference between the value of goods imported and exported.
-- When Honda exports a Civic made in Ohio, that reduces the trade deficit.
--When Pontiac imports a GTO from Australia, that increases the trade deficit.
Those two points are facts, not opinions. That's the formula by which the balance of trade is calculated.
By the way, the Big 2.5 do just fine in Europe, China, Africa, etc. GM's worldwide sales were up +2% for 2005 due to the strength of sales in China and Latin America.
The irony is that GM is selling Asian-made cars in the PRC. No American blue collar workers earning wages from any of those sales.
====================
please reiterate your logic against this argument because it is pretty solid—i think i heard... opinion and not fact? el oh el! are we calling economics opinion now? how about the factories the 2.5 have in Mexico? id like to go further but the fact is ford is cutting 35000 jobs and toyota is building a plant in kentucky
sigh
#931 basically translates as "Don't confuse me with the facts. Don't correct or contradict me, even when I'm clearly incorrect."
I still want to know why Chrysler, headquartered in Germany, is more "American" than is Honda that is headquartered in Japan, or why a GM car imported from Mexico is more "American" than a Toyota built right here in the US.
Can anyone explain this, please? Anyone?
I think the formula is something like this:
1.745 American Workers = 1 UAW worker.
You see according to the above formula, UAW made Dodge is domestic because its 'more American', but Alabama (UAW free) built Mercedes ML350 is imported because its 'less American'.
I hope that this clarifies it for you.
To others it means buying vehicles assembled here in the U.S. and yes most do have U.S. auto suppliers parts in them.(U.S. Content)
The way this is shaping up to me is that we have the import, asian, pro free traders vs. domestic, american, anti-free traders.
The bottom line is this:
If you believe in making the Asians very wealthy and a world super-power that will eventually take us over so you can save a buck at the cash register, then you shouldn't care where the (product/good) is made and keep buying imports.
If your a true patriot that runs more than "skin deep" then you will buy "american made" goods, made by domestic manufactors no matter how inferior it is or expensive.
I can't believe how you import lovers "SPIN" or "JUSTIFY" your purchase of a import to make yourself feel good. Why can't the truth be good enough ?????
The truth is for most is buying the product that they thought was the best, or what their neighbor drove or reccommended. None of this Hawg-Wash on it being "more american made" than a GM, Ford, Chrysler, because we know that's B.S. and not the truth
Yes my response is arrogant, just like your justification for buying a import. :P
Rocky
You see UAW made Dodge is domestic, but Alabama built Mercedes ML350 is imported, because in Mercedes plant in Alabama there is no UAW.
I hope that this clarifies it for you.
When did the UAW EVER say something like that :confuse:
I want you to please show me proof of a quote.
Rocky
If you believe in making the Asians very wealthy and a world super-power that will eventually take us over so you can save a buck at the cash register, then you shouldn't care where the (product/good) is made and keep buying imports.
If your a true patriot that runs more than "skin deep" then you will buy "american made" goods, made by domestic manufactors no matter how inferior it is or expensive.
I can't believe how you import lovers "SPIN" or "JUSTIFY" your purchase of a import to make yourself feel good. Why can't the truth be good enough ?????
You opinion is noted.. and it will be given it's due consideration. Please note that the auto workers in Alabama who are every bit as patriotic as you may have a different opinion.
Your highlighted statement is frankly hilarious and unbelievable really. Do you actually believe this?
Your response isn't arrogant... it's beyond that.. but no matter, what is downright scary is that it could be indicative of the views are of the UAW workers assembling 'Domestic' vehicles. :surprise: YIKES!!!
Maybe the UAW won't be asking you to be the poster child for it's next promotion
I can understand that 'the truth', in your opinion, has been formed by your background and family situation so it's perfectly understandable.
Just consider, for a moment, that your version of 'the truth' is not the opinion of someone who has a different family background than yours. Their version is that the Detroit based automakers have mismanaged the assets in their care thereby hurting their workers.
Some people in TN and MS and AL are very very happy about this mismanagement. ( not to mention whole extended families in Mexico now working - plus the 5 jobs each auto job generates ). To them that is 'the truth'.
Do you really honestly think the workers like those of the UAW trying to put food on the table for their wife and kids, working their butts off on a assembly line in a U.S. manufactoring plant are "excited" you just went to Walley World and purchased another product that was "made in china" ????
Your answer is a big "NO"
My father and I for one buys "Made in America" clothes, appliances, and any other good we can find made in this country to support american workers and their family. If that product is made in the states and is made by a foreign company with no U.S. company alternative, then we are stuck with supporting the company that is foreign owned but provides U.S. jobs. THAT IS TRUE PATRIOTISM THAT RUNS THROUGH OUR VEINS
Seriously I know I was blunt, but some of you are "spinning" this topic to heights. The average Accord buyer didn't buy the car because it was made in Marysville Ohio. Saying that was your "main reason" for purchase is absolutely false and yes I'm going to call those that are spinning it that way on it.
Rocky
Are you sure of this?... Did you happen to inquire of the people working on the lines in Smyrna or Fremont? Are you sure that this isnt just your family's opinion and possibly not the 'truth'.
Oh.. you continue to bring up the subject of WalMart. You are aware of course that GM ( Aveo ) is the WallyWorld of the US auto industry, foisting its cheap trinkets from Korea on the hard working American public. That must be tough to reconcile at home.
BTW your statement before was scary if someone was thinking about buying a domestic vehicle.
The Money of all still goes back to their homeland which doesn't help the U.S. government and it's people. Yes a small percentage (especially the Japanese) gets invested in R&D facilities in the U.S.
However it still doesn't off-set the catastrophic affects it's having on the Big 3 and anyone believing the Japanese auto-manufactors with their corruption of
"currency manipulation" and our stupid leaders in washington "lending them a helping hand" with free taxes is unamerican and especially unpatriotic. Your not seeing the same approach taken by the Japanese government of helping GM sell cars in Japan are you.
Rocky
Why would it be scary ????
Regardless people like you won't buy Big 3 cars and wish they'd ceize to exist !!!!! You and others are pro-imports and wouldn't cross shop a U.S. domestic no matter what the big 3 builds.
Rocky
I'm just saying why buy a import that feeds are enemy's enough wealth to detroy us, when you can buy an american alternative that supports the wealth of a fellow american and his community ! This just doesn't apply to cars.
I'm sticking up for the few posters like (bmk32) that got hammered and attacked, while I was away because they feel this way. Ya'll were like sharks smelling blood.
Rocky
That doesn't answer the question. So let's repeat it:
What is an American business?
Is Chrysler an American business? It is headquartered in Germany.
Are Ford and GM American businesses? Their stockholders include European investment banks, and they build plenty of product and higher plenty of workers outside the US, while they work aggressively to reduce US-based employment?
Are Toyota and Honda foreign businesses? They are increasing their US workforces, from assembly to R&D, and have their stock owned by numerous American investors. They are also increasing their US presence and investment, and plan to hire more workers while the Big 2 cut jobs.
So which one is American? You seem to define "American" as the company that outsources and fires your own people.
If you believe in making the Asians very wealthy and a world super-power that will eventually take us over so you can save a buck at the cash register, then you shouldn't care where the (product/good) is made and keep buying imports.
Well, I figured we'd end up here. Just one question -- if you want to wage WWII over again, why don't you fear the same thing coming from German-based Chrysler?
We take the invasion of buying imports seriously. You would feel sorry for my wife, when she brings something home made in China. I get really upset at her if she didn't hunt for an american made alternative.
Rocky
Regardless people like you won't buy Big 3 cars and wish they'd ceize to exist !!!!! You and others are pro-imports and wouldn't cross shop a U.S. domestic no matter what the big 3 builds
Actually this is far from the 'truth', but you are entitled to your opinion. I am just extremely critical of bad business, from both management and workers. Bad business should not be tolerated. You wouldn't go to a heart surgeon who was a 'butcher' with a known track record of operations gone bad would you?
You saw my post #944 above. I was closely involved at Dearborn, Auburn Hills, Toledo, Chicago Height, Balt Truck& Bus and others for a long long time. I probably have as good a feel for them as you and your family does. Bad business should not be rewarded.
Is Chrysler an American business? It is headquartered in Germany.
The Diamler part yes is headquartered in Germany. The Chrysler part is headquarted in Detroit still which makes it an american buisness that merged with Mercedes Benz.
Are Ford and GM American businesses?
Yes more so than Diamler Chrysler since they are independently owned by U.S.
citizens(majority of shareholders)
Their stockholders include European investment banks, and they build plenty of product and higher plenty of workers outside the US, while they work aggressively to reduce US-based employment?
While they work to agressively reduce US-based employment-
Yes they are reducing U.S. based employment for a variety of reasons. Losses in marketshare due to the import crowd that has been brainwashed to believe that a Toyota or Honda is inferior to lets say a Buick. The Japanese don't have the responsibility to retired workers therefore they have a cost advantage. They (Asains) also get away with currency manipulation, which further makes the cost to produce even cheaper. Free tax give aways by the government and it's community's. New domestic plants are much more efficient and it takes less man-power to build a automobile.
-Do to all of these components and a corrupt government not willing to protect american buisness we are seeing the domestic manufactors have no choice but to lay-off good paid, good americans that will hurt many community's.
Are Toyota and Honda foreign businesses?
Yes they are foreign buisnesses because they are Japanese owned and the revenues go back to Japan.
They are increasing their US workforces, from assembly to R&D, and have their stock owned by numerous American investors. They are also increasing their US presence and investment, and plan to hire more workers while the Big 2 cut jobs.
They are allowed to undercut the Big 3 with currency manipulation, no legacy costs to it's retirees, and a "perception" propaganda machine better than Joseph Goebels that has brain washed many into the belief that a car with Toyota or Honda on the back is inferior to it's american competition. Free taxes from are corrupt government has allowed even more R&D and is why they have moved from Japan to U.S. -Hell they gotta be laughing all the way to the bank with the lack of human rights. The latest thing proposed by republicans in Washington was a reduction in ergonomic controls since it's reducing "parts per hundred, per hour" :mad:
So which one is American? You seem to define "American" as the company that outsources and fires your own people.
Well when you have a un-level playing field to compete in the guy with all the advantages is going win. I explained the advantages above. GM, Ford, Chrysler hasn't fired it's employees. It simpily has laid them off with severance packages. Ford has already offered a nice package. The Big 3 also still out employs the Asians by hundreds of thousands of workers. I guess you never to that into account.
Well, I figured we'd end up here. Just one question -- if you want to wage WWII over again, why don't you fear the same thing coming from German-based Chrysler?
Well the Germans are much more pro-american than the Asians, this is based upon many of my relatives visiting each country and how they were recieved by the populus. the "old" Germans told my Uncle who was stationed in Germany that they were thankful the U.S. rescued them from Hitler. The other thing is ethnic backgrounds, which is still a real issue. We have lots of German decendants such as my family's heritage living in this country. Alot more than the asians
Rocky
You can't have it both ways there kdyspyder !
Toyota imports cars & trucks, Nissan imports, Mitsu, Ford & DCX all import, so why is GM your scapegoat ?
It's a GLOBAL industry. All of the manufacturers have plants around the globe and support automotive demand in every country of the world, oh, but the lone exception is Japan, they're afraid of competition in Japan.
So it's a race war, is it? Somehow I figured that this was the real bottom line for some of you.
Just to be sure I understand your PoV. It is OK for GM to import the Aveo it's not a big deal to emulate WalMart?
I'm glad you are beginning to see the 'global' picture.
Rocky
Aha, the real 'truth' comes out. Now I am positively certain the UAW doesnt want you as their poster child in the future. You do have some special 'opinions'. I will say that for you.
People here do buy Corollas, Vibes, and Tacomas because their friends and family built them (and because they're good enough that no one feels like they're getting short-changed). With the money the workers make, they're able to buy houses - even in this area!
You can tell us we're supporting Japan all you want. We can see the positive effects of the plant for ourselves. And no one really cares if it's Yoshi Inaba (Toyota's CEO), Jim Press (Toyota's US Sales CEO - obviously Japanese), or Rick Wagoner who gets the big bucks. They're all pretty far removed from us. But if you believe in meritocracy at all, making Rick and friends rich sounds like a really silly idea.
If you're so pro-Global, pro-cheaper prices and anti-UAW, seems to me you wouldn't give a rats behind where the Aveo came from.
Well, here's what you said:
We have lots of German decendants such as my family's heritage living in this country. Alot more than the asians
Yep, in your mind, white guys make Chrysler more "American" than any other foreign company.
By the way, here are the top stockholders in Honda, for one example. (Hope they're foreign enough for you):
Dodge & Cox Inc
Morgan Stanley
Sound Shore Management, Inc.
Lord Abbett & Co
AXA
Fifth Third Bancorp
Greenhaven Associates, Inc.
Schneider Capital Management, L.P.
Wells Fargo & Company
JP Morgan Chase & Company
Since you wont be able to find these words you will be asking..'So what are you for?'
US Jobs.
I posed a question to you yesterday that you've overlooked. What has happened over the last 20 yrs to NA Lt Truck and Auto production? any idea?
I love how some of you spin what people say and take it out of context. I guess I should be use to this by now.
Rocky
P.S. Chrysler has a very diversified workforce employed at their many plants. So the White-guy theory your trying to spin on me is absolutely false.
Rocky
I am a musician in a band on a major label. {name withheld for privacy} Would you buy my CD because I'm an American citizen, or would you rather have music by Elton John, the Who, or the Beatles?
Reading comp needed work needed some work in school? From which words do you arrive at your conclusion? I believe my post says..
US jobs..
Ahh btw, I grew up in a union household with my father being VP of the local. I'm just aware of many of the shortcomings let's say. As I stated before I am just against rewarding bad business be it Management or Union.
Your opinion then, from your post #968 , is that since it's a world market that products should be able to be imported from all over? Aveo's from Korea for GM and socks from China for WallyWorld? There's really no difference is there?
You really do believe this dont you? Everyone outside your family is an enemy. You are very very scary, you know that.
Which enemy is it exactly that is trying to destroy you?
(bmk32) was just taken to task for presenting his opinions, valid as they are, as facts. It's always been clear that your views are only opinions so there is no controversy.
Which enemy is it exactly that is trying to destroy you?
I as american trust the asians, especially the chinese, about as far as I could throw one. I never said everyone outside my family is an enemy. Those are your words and not mine. My distrust especially from the Big Red Machine (China) was their threats against the U.S. if we protected Taiwan if they invaded them.
If americans buy Chinese cars and products they are simpily supporting there military and political ambitions. We have the freedom of choice. Some of us make the right decision, and others make the wrong decision based on variety of personal choices.
The Japanese realize they can dominate us not by war, but by manipulating there currency, controling us economically, and buying propaganda machines like car editors that are "experts". We have a few in our society that honestly believe that americans, and american buisness's aren't as smart as our world competitors and make inferior products for their consumption based on distorted facts. That might of been the case a decade ago, but that perception is no longer true as many of you still want to believe.
I am tired of arguing about this subject and going to let it die with my final post on this subject. We obviously aren't going to change each other minds on this subject so lets go back to atleast arguing whats the better car. Camcord vs. G6 is a much better arguement then the politics side in the Buying American cars and what it means.
Thanx
Rocky
Time to agree to disagree and leave it at that if you can't discuss things without the pot shots.