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Comments
GM has been crying about their $6billion in healthcare/legacy costs all year long . I'm not a math genius, but 8.6 - 6 billion, still means GM would have lost money this year w/o any healthcare costs.
Wow, things are not good at Generic Motors. Even George W. threw the General under the bus by stating they need better product and don't expect the public to bail them out.
Many may think I'm biased against domestics, but thats not true. I've only owned two foreign cars, a Nissan and a VW, in comparison to many domestics and currently have a Suburban and Ford 500 in the driveway. I just hate the fact that Ford and GM management teams have just been horrible and throw in the UAW and it has made things even worse.
The 500 is a company car, but still, it's a nice car in search of exterior styling, better interior materials and a better engine. While power is adequate, engine refinement is horrible when compared to a Toyota, Nissan, or Honda v6. Hell, you probably can add some of the Korean makes as well.
The Suburban represents all that is wrong with GM. Horrible build quality, cheap interior parts, and design. I like the utility and will most likely buy another for that reason only. I hope the 07 model addresses the rattles, cause it does look a lot better inside and out. To bad GM felt people don't care about fold flat seats, while it's not a deal breaker for me, many will be unhappy about lugging a 100lb 3rd row seat out of the vehicle. The Women certainly won't be happy.
This is the Ford's version of job banks. Basically UAW people who cannot find a job at the end of 48 weeks go to these job banks and continue to receive 95% of their hourly wages and benefits until they find a job or retire. Here is another Detroit News article about this practice.
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0510/17/A01-351179.htm
People sit on their [non-permissible content removed] and get paid. It costs GM about $2,100,000,000 over 4 years. This means that it costs $500,000,000 per year. That works out to $100 per car that American Consumer has to pay for people sitting on their [non-permissible content removed] and reading newspapers.
Its your money American Consumer. Use it wisely.
I just wish I had one of the job bank jobs. I could learn to like crossword puzzles and I could catch up on my reading and I need to start my taxes and...
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I was just responding to a post that said unions don’t force the type of vehicle produced. I was just speculating that a higher labor contract would eventually effect the cost of the vehicle and therefore any additional engineering that went into it.
Not a fact just my theory.
I was then dreaming, like the “I have a dream speech” only relating to automobiles, that if the domestics (mentioned Ford) would spend more on R&D and materials their vehicles may be more competitive versus the imports. From what I’ve seen you could always get an American vehicle at a discount over the imports; a significant discount.
Good coincidence, then. GM has been claiming that its worker obligations add $2k to every car, so I had figured that's where you had that statistic.
To me the whole UAW contract with Domestic automakers smells a lot like Socialism. The full health benefits, guaranteed employment, Job Banks, Union telling Ford which factories can be closed and which cannot, and on and on and on.
From what I remember in History, we had (and won) the cold war with Socialist Russia. Now Russia is a Capitalist country, but we have Socialism here in our own auto plants. :mad:
And we have to support this by buying American made "Domestic" cars?
I reviewed quite a few earlier posts, with various comments on remote fuel filler doors, cramped back seats, and the like. None of these items, individually, is responsible for GM’s woes. Collectively, over a period of 25 years, they do indeed add up to destroy customers’ trust in quality and boredom with poor design. The Civic, over its lifecycle, has twice bested older Accord models in terms of power, space and comfort, with the Accord taking corresponding leaps ahead. What GM product has had a similar evolution in any of these areas? Pushrod engines, anyone? My 88 Corolla had a 16 valve 4, my $21K Jetta 1.8 turbo makes 100hp/liter...
I don’t think Ford is any better off; we closely inspected the Fusion in terms of fit/finish and materials, along with the new Hyundai Sonata. That old “door thunk” test made the Fusion sound tinny like a Focus, and the interior materials and design were pretty bland. The Hyundai had a much better level of fit and finish, tight where the bumper plastic meets sheet metal and turn lights, and its door sound was more Mercedes than Mercury.
I think a major shift in attitude is needed here – this is America, we put man on the moon and invented the damn internet, why do we no longer master a 100+ year old industry whose assembly line we invented, and consistently build appealing, affordable world-class vehicles? Let's stop hiding behind "legacy costs" and move on.
This goes back to an earlier post of mine where i said that the Domestics could improve their reliability image by offering longer warranties. I don't think that they could afford it though.
Also, I believe that the Domestic auot makers are forced to make "cheap" cars to even remotely compete because of their labor costs and commitments.
I have looked at the Focus, but they want alot of money for a car that compared to other cars isn't up to par on mpg. Right now with Nissan having it's $2500 cash back on the Sentra, I was given the price of $12,980 tax title out the door. I still am going to wait though to see what comes out this year. Maybe one of the domestic makers will catch on by then.
At the time everyone knew it was just delaying the inevitable. But at the time they had the SUV craze just taking off as well as all the trucks and these were ungodly cash cows. They could afford to be weak and dumb. Also they would all be in retirement when the real crisis hit.
20 yrs later....
As it stands, I'm trying German next (and I expect less than perfection, but still good reliability). If I don't get it, that'll be another company crossed off the list.
My god you are the most hypocritical poster in these forums. GM or Ford hasn't treated you bad, but your labeling them as the same as your Dodge. The Honda hasn't been perfect either but it's superior. :confuse: Now the Germans rank as the worst in reliabilty on average and your going to buy a copy. This is so darn hypocritcal that it's really funny. Hey buy what ya want pal, but please don't be so hypocritical on your reasoning for doing so.
Yes try an A3 out if that's what ya want. They are actually pretty nice cars.
Rocky
P.S.
Problems with a big FAT "S" at the end Rockylee!!!!
I'm not sure what ya meant by this ?
See link below: among others
http://www.lii.net/deming.html
I've have Demming's book in a bookshelf somewhere, maybe I should send it to Rick Wagoner and Bill Ford.
Article from the Detroit News:
Toyota officials say the key to their system is that it taps the knowledge and insights of their team members.
They also give them a lot of training and responsibility. At Georgetown, or any Toyota plant, any team member has the power to stop the line by pulling what is called an “andon” cord. The term “andon” is derived from the Japanese word for paper lantern.
Once a worker pulls the cord, if the problem is not resolved before the car reaches the next stage of assembly, the line stops.
“It may hurt productivity, but it improves quality,” said Brian Walters, J.D. Power research director.
Toyota encourages employees to pull the cord, despite the line stoppages, to expose problems and address them quickly. In Georgetown, workers reach for their cords 2,500 times a shift, and stoppages amount to 6-8 minutes per shift.
But, plant manager Convis said, “at Toyota, it’s a problem if you run (the line) at 100 percent. Something isn’t adding up, because life isn’t (perfect) like that.”
For the past year and a half, andon cords have hung along the assembly lines at GM’s Oshawa plant. But the concept can get muddled in translation.
“We used to get 17 andon pulls per day,” said Rod McVeigh, a supervisor in the assembly plant. “We’re now targeting six a day.”
But that might encourage workers to look out less for glitches.
Dennis Pawley, Chrysler’s former manufacturing chief and now a consultant teaching Japanese manufacturing methods, says of the Big Three: “They don’t understand that they don’t understand.”
Link to the article:
http://detnews.com/2004/specialreport/0402/22/a01-70509.htm
That probably means more waits, less personal attention, but more consistency. And on the profit side, larger dealers have more breathing room and don't need to be bailed out so often. I'll think about it some more; I haven't seen anyone write about dealership strategies with regards to manufacturer success.
Just look at the title "Buying American Cars: What Does It Mean? " Sound pretty political to me.
You should delete the entire thread if you want to avoid politics.
"It's foolish to buy a luxury car with poor resale value when there are so many likeable lux cars with great (or at least greater than Cadillac/Lincoln) resale value."
Lease?
You ARE aware that one doesn't escape the problems of poor resale by leasing. Lease rates are based (in part) on anticipated resale value. Cars with poor resale will (all else being equal) have higher lease rates.
So what goes into determining resale value? How can they make it better?
Rocky
Rocky
In addition, anybody who has heard of Six Sigma quality programs and the J.D. Power awards knows that American manufacturers do meet or exceed foreign car manufacturers.
If you don't like the style or there isn't enough head room great - maybe you're too tall - not every vehicle is meant to satisfy every consumer and that is what makes choice so wonderful.
However, I would appreciate it if the pro-import crowd would stop regurgitating the mindless drivel of the automotive press.
As is often the case, the most vocal supporters are converts. In this case, people burned by domestics. I'm not among them, but I can see why they'd be angry. And imo, the automotive press reflects reality pretty well. Edmunds, for example, seems to have bashed domestic products less in the last couple of years, and when it did there was good reason for it.
If there were institutional reasons for it - like higher fixed costs - well too bad, it's not the reviewer's job to say "Aww, we understand. We'll compare it to something $1,500 cheaper to make it fair."
When the complaints have revolved around reputations, well, those affect a review no matter what kind of product it is. Our own jobs depend on our reputations, and one good week after a few months of goofing off will still be looked at with skepticism.
:confuse:
That sounds like something a car dealer would say, not a consumer who has shelled out thousands to buy a car.
It comes down to this: Cars lose value, but some lose value more than others. No reason why someone should deliberately go and buy a car that loses value like a rock when there is a better car that won't.
And in any case, higher depreciation doesn't occur in a vacuum -- it is usually an indicator of a car that is not in demand and/or is being sold off in large numbers. More often than not, that indicates that the buying public doesn't like the car, which in turn likely reflects a lack of quality.
If the Big 2.5 automakers (still not sure who the "American" automakers are, by the way) want their cars to depreciate less, then they need to build better cars. If consumers don't want the cars, then there is something wrong with the cars, not the customers.
Blaming the customer is the ideal way to make sure that a business fails. If you want my money, you will need to give me a good reason to give it to you.
If you want a new car every 3 years, it's the best way to go. If you want to save the most amount of money over the longest term, then purchasing and keeping long after it's paid for is the best way to go.
Somehow, the big3 just can't see it. Makes you wonder who's in charge and why the heck are they.
Explain why Toyota/Honda can't take profits home from overseas operations while GM/Ford does the same?
To add to that, for one, many the profits are going to the shareholders who are all over the world, and who benefit from dividends and appreciation. Contrary to the misunderstandings of many on this thread, the profits don't all go to Japan.
For another, most of the revenues earned by any business are paid back out in expenses and investment, not profit.
The "Japanese" automakers are committing their money to build plants in the US, to hire Americans and to purchase parts from American suppliers. The "American" firms are investing their money into foreign plants that will hire locals who are not Americans. Which one does everyone prefer?
Rocky
Resale is determined by several factors. 1. Dealer overhead has to be added on to every used car that comes in regardless of its worth. (Insurance, floor planning, advertising, lot damage, hidden repairs, etc).
2. Warranties, maintenance, and repairs must be considered. Most people who are thinking of trading tend to let maintenance and repairs go. vehicles must to be brought up at least to safety standards before a reputable dealer will sell them.
3. Used car values are driven by what the consumer is willing pay. There must be a significant difference between a used car and a new car price in order for a buyer to even consider it.
Selling your own vehicle is the best way to get the best price. As a private individual you have none of the above to consider. The sale is final. When you see what a dealer must consider before putting a vehicle on their lot you must realize how great their risk.
Another blogger mentions how much is GM is expanding overseas. Stop moaning about American companies expanding overseas. GM is a multinational corporation, and like any MNC's of course you're going to expand overseas. How much of Toyota's income comes from overseas markets? Engines that are made in Bangkok, glass windows manufactered in India, and Hino trucks in Mexico. So stopped complaining about American firms expanding overseas.
How much do you think Ford is paying the Mexicans who are building "American" Fusions in Mexico?
I will stop moaning about it when they stop waving the stars-and-stripes in their hypocritical attempts to appeal to patriotism when selling "foreign" cars as "American" products or building inferior products as compared to the "foreign" makers who hire Americans.
I have already pointed out that GM is a multinational corporation. So, let the best multinational win -- when it comes to buying cars, I am a citizen of the world, too. (As my handle indicates, my car has 0% domestic content and I don't lose sleep over it.)