Steve, I think building where (or near) you sell, both vehicles and components, is inevitable and its not just currency fluctuation. The commodity craze has driven fuel prices up causing noticeably higher freight charges. Most importantly perhaps, supply chain analysis has become a major influence in most businesses today. Operating with low inventory levels requires relatively close by vendors. Generally, the longer the supply chain, both in distances and in the number of hands touching stuff means the higher the supply chain costs. Reduced purchasing and supply chain costs go directly to the bottom line. In fact, a 1% reduction here can equate to the same impact on profitability as a 10% sales revenue increase. In most areas, I think as soon as volume is high enough to offset fixed costs it often makes sense to build locally.
I'll bet if you graphed the average domestic content of the Detroit 3 vs. foreign nameplates, you would see the Detroit graph dropping over the past 25 years, where the foreign nameplates are steadily growing their US content.
I wonder why that is?
Is it because the D3 have boat anchor unions around their necks?
Actually, a lot of the US Asian plants use primarily US suppliers. However, two things to note. 1) many domestic parts producers are not UAW and 2) many Asian suppliers like Denso have set up plants here (again, no UAW).
The irony to the UAW is that the Asian plants often pay a very similar wage package. BUT they don't have the featherbedding work rules and they can fire losers.
The irony to the UAW is that the Asian plants often pay a very similar wage package. BUT they don't have the featherbedding work rules and they can fire losers.
I recall that when Honda first set up shop here in the mid-80s, they paid just about exactly the then-prevailing UAW rate, which was more than twice the going rate for non-union factory workers in rural Ohio. But the company made it clear that UAW work rules would not apply in their plant.
As a result, Honda's Marysville plant could do a model year changeover in 4 hours, instead of the 2 weeks required by UAW plants at that time.
cooter: don't worry, when I post anything after 10 pm it is always subject to revision the following day...:):):)
berri: "BUT they don't have the featherbedding work rules and they can fire losers." probably very important...some book on the auto industry ("Crash?") stated that a Honda plant with 2000 workers made the same auto volume as a GM plant with 6000 workers...multiple those 4000 extra workers times who-knows how many auto plants, and you have payroll out of sight...then add their benefits, and you have too many floorsweepers making $35/hour sitting in the Jobs Bank waiting to be called to sweep up messes that don't exist in plants that no longer make cars because the UAW killed the golden goose and the workers are still too stupid to understand any of it...
I remember reading that when Honda wants to change over for the new model year, before the last car from the previous year comes off the line, that they are ready to start making new ones at the beginning of the line...maybe that is where the four hours comes from...when I was in Detroit, the UAW was laid off for about a month while they changed over...
How anyone with an IQ over 60 can say that the UAW added ANYTHING to American industry, except unneeded featherbedded labor and heartache, is beyond me...
How anyone with an IQ over 60 can say that the UAW added ANYTHING to American industry, except unneeded featherbedded labor and heartache, is beyond me...
I just finished reading "Crash Course: The American Automobile Industry's Road from Glory to Disaster by" Paul Ingrassia. You would be even more appalled about the UAW after reading this book. Lots of interesting details I did not know about. And most of them not pretty at all.
I read that book a few months ago, after reading DeLorean's book (GM from 1956 to about 1980) and then read Call Me Roger (GM about 1981 to when Roger Smith stepped down in 1990) and then Crash Course picked up in either the late 90s or early 2000s...I tell you, they were not intended to be a historical sequence, but they literally covered the auto industry from 1956 to about 2005, talking about the damage of the UAW and that the Big 3 were on a track for bankruptcy...very prescient series of books, but if you want some old history, read the other two books and you will see how dysfunctional GM and the UAW were 50 years ago...fascinating...
There was a time, long passed now, when Americans with just a high school diploma [maybe less?] could earn a middle-class income in manufacturing. The UAW's members' wages and benefits, however overreaching they were, epitomized that era. The D3 management and the UAW share responsibility for the downfall of our domestic auto industry; an industry, BTW, on the road to recovery, IMO. Part of that recovery is being financed by us taxpayers, and new UAW, and non-union auto workers whose incomes are a lot less than their predecessors'. The burgeoning of America's middle class from, say, 1945 to 1970 - a fraction of our young nation's history was a fine achievement. Sadly, we get to pay for its excesses today, but if this country's unique character means anything, better days lie ahead. JMEVSHO.
Sadly, we get to pay for its excesses today, but if this country's unique character means anything, better days lie ahead.
Better watch out, fintail will disagree and say we are racing to the bottom.
I hope you are correct. I actually think the US has a lot of unique strengths and we may cede the #1 position, but we will still be strong (like England or France or Germany). But the US has quite a few systemic BIG problems that it needs to fix. And the current political situation is poor. Both parties suck, but hopefully necessity will change that. Unfortunately the will to fix things won't be strong enough unless things get much worse before they get better.
Just gotta find that new miracle industry to pop up and save the day...while at the same time confronting economic and demographic issues...I just can't hold my breath, it'll be quite the trifecta.
"There was a time, long passed now, when Americans with just a high school diploma [maybe less?] could earn a middle-class income in manufacturing."
For that you are correct...many UAW members were functionally illiterate and could barely read or write, but they could put 5 lug nuts on a wheel or install a windshield (altho with the poor quality of the 70s-90s, you could easily dispute my assertion) but they could literlaly be quite ignorant and earn an income rivalling most doctors...I knew some autoworkers who, when they both worked overtime, made over $125K combined...in the 80s...they often lived in shacks in Detroit, but they had 2 new Caddies every year...
Those days are over...while I don't know just how much education one may need, I think it is safe to say that a high school dropout won't go too far these days, and being illiterate simply won't cut it anymore...
Just gotta find that new miracle industry to pop up and save the day...while at the same time confronting economic and demographic issues...I just can't hold my breath, it'll be quite the trifecta.
Where is Al Gore to invent the next internet when you need him? :P
>Where is Al Gore to invent the next internet when you need him?
He's busy chasing the dragon looking for massage people to "entertain" him.
The Good Wife TV show that my wife loves to watch had a story line last night about a prominent democrat who had attacked a massage person who resisted. The person had won a Nobel Prize. The person was famous for crusading to protect women in those African countries.
I understand Al Gore is trying to track down Manbearpig, a strange creature that's half man, half bear, and half pig! Nobody knows what Manbearpig wants, only that he wants to get you! I'm super, super serial! But I kinda feel sorry for Mr. Gore. I don't think he has any friends.
My idol for MANY years, and continues to be...Al Bundy!!!...to have the respect of his family, to drive that new car, to be able to sit on my couch and place my hand...
The author is rewriting history to suit himself. The big trade imbalances of the late 60s were a product of currency values, which were fixed by mutual agreement from 1945 to 1971. Thus, the German Deutsche Mark was fixed at 4 to the dollar, the French franc at 10 to the dollar, etc. These values didn't change; you didn't have to look up the exchange rates in the business section of your paper.
By the late 60s, the dollar was obviously overvalued. For less than the cost of a Pontiac Bonneville, you could buy an E-class Mercedes; if you could afford a Chevy Nova, you could buy a new BMW. It didn't help that the dollar was, by law, convertible to gold. As the Vietnam War-era budget deficits undermined confidence in the dollar, foreign (usually German) corporations could demand that the Treasury buy their dollars in exchange for gold.
Finally, with gold reserves dwindling, the pressure on the dollar forced us & the other industrial powers to allow currencies to float. Overnight, the value of the D-Mark relative to the dollar doubled, as did the prices of German good. That - not tariffs - was the big story in foreign trade in 1971.
I've always believed that the devaluation of the dollar made Mercedes into a status symbol. When MB cars were cheaper than Buicks, they weren't nearly as desirable as they were when they became more expensive than Cadillacs. By 1980, the S-class was the car to drive if you wanted to look as if you'd arrived.
The depreciated and then appreciating DM certainly had an impact then, but I don't know if the cars were quite so cheap originally. In 1969, the earliest year where I have complete data (period NADA and KBB editions), a bottom of the line no option 220 gas - the lowest MB sold in NA - had a base MSRP of around $5100 The larger engined model, the 250, more comparable to an E (but same body) was around $5800 - mind you these are base prices - these cars didn't even offer power options, this price includes no AC, no radio, etc - very spartan and not really like a modern E. A 6.3 had a MSRP of over $15K - serious money. A typical V8 280SE was around $8100. Per my material, a 1969 Sedan DeVille based at $6000. Using the Standard Catalog of American cars, I find a Bonnie 4 door at around $3800 base and a V8 Nova coupe at $2500 base, and my books list a 2002 at $3400. Not terribly far off, but not equal. The funny thing is with inflation and demand for these newfound status symbols, these cars had amazing resale. In November 1976, a 1970 280SL with a base MSRP of $8300 had a retail value of $8100...not bad!
I wonder how high the DM would be today if not saddled with Euro baggage...or if it would be manipulated like what we let China get away with under "free trade".
In 1969, the earliest year where I have complete data (period NADA and KBB editions), a bottom of the line no option 220 gas - the lowest MB sold in NA - had a base MSRP of around $5100
I'm basing this entirely on memory - never a good idea at my advanced age - but I recall reading a Car & Driver test of either the MB 250S or the 250SE that ran in '68 or '69. The test car was equipped with automatic transmission, power steering, power brakes, A/C & AM/FM radio - just about the entire option list - & it stickered for under $6K - about what a well-equipped but not really loaded Buick or Olds would've cost at the time. (My Dad bought a fairly stripped - AM radio & no A/C - Olds Delta 88 in 1969 for $4500.)
(AFAIK, the MB 6.3 was never sold through the MB dealership network, although some cars found their way into the U.S. through other channels. Again, I could be wrong about that.)
To give you a point of reference: my then best friend's dad was a successful CPA who bought a new Sedan de Ville every 2 years. Sticker price for a well-equipped '67 Caddy was $7500. I remember seeing the window sticker for this car. It was burgundy with a black vinyl top - a truly impressive car.
Re the BMW 2002: back in 1967 or 68, I read (& was blown away by) Car & Driver's now legendary review: "Turn Your Hymnals to 2002", by David E. Davis. This used to be available as a PDF on C&D's web site, but apparently it's been taken down, so I don't know where you could find it now. It's my recollection (please - no laughter from the cheap seats) that the list price of the test car was under $3K - about what a Chevy Nova would have cost at the time. The only available options were AM/FM radio & dealer-installed A/C.
That article convinced me that I had to own a BMW, although nearly 35 years would pass before I could actually afford one.
IIRC production of 250 series W108 and 113 cars, a short run, ended in calendar year 1967, but some could be titled as 1968. The modernized 280 engined cars replaced these. Pricing on accessories might be hard to pin down as AC and radio were dealer installed then. And even for a 250S, 6K is 33% more than 4500 - not a tiny gap, and a 250S was the bottom of the line larger car in NA. For reference, my fintail, a 220SE, was a higher line car, but cost around 5500-6K several years earlier. That was pretty much Caddy money for something around the size of a Ford Fairlane that had a 134 cubic inch engine. Of course, being an SE, it has about 1hp per cubic inch - and sales volumes were still several thousand a year.
I do think the 6.3 was available through the normal dealer network, but was a special order car. As it was listed in trade pricing material several years later, there must have been enough of them out there to justify the listing. Either way, 15K was a huge chunk of change, and that car helped MB build prestige and steal sales too.
Really, the 6.3 has what pushed MB into the NA mainstream for highline sedans - a V8. The V8 cars starting ~1969 are what did it. The clattery egg beater/sewing machine I6 cars appealed to tech enthusiasts and oddballs, but the V8s opened the cars up to the affluent mass market who could now choose a powerful well trimmed car with a little handling. The V8 powered 280SE, identical to that 250SE, listed at around 8K, and coupes were over 10K. The V8 cars gave Detroit some legitimate competition, and when the larger and modern W116 hit the road in NA in 1973, the assault was in full swing, and things have never been the same since.
You should have bought a BMW sooner...cut something out of the budget and lived a little. I have no regrets about my vehicle purchases...you only live once :shades:
I do think the 6.3 was available through the normal dealer network, but was a special order car.
You're probably right about this. I recall (pesky memory again!) that C&D tested a 6.3 in '68 or '69 & pronounced it the best 4-door sedan in the world.
You should have bought a BMW sooner...cut something out of the budget and lived a little.
To tell the truth, what held me back wasn't money but horrible experiences with 2 earlier German car purchases: a '78 Rabbit & an '80 Audi 5000, both of which were bought new.
The Rabbit delivered a terrific driving experience when it ran - it was fast & nimble - but was plagued with electrical problems. Finally, it threw a rod at less than 50K miles.
The Audi set us back almost $12K at a time when a loaded, top-of-the line Honda Accord cost about $7500. Again, it was a great road car but started going to pieces almost as soon as the warranty (2 years / 24K miles in those days) expired. Countless electrical problems plus a heating / AC system that worked only when it felt up to it. At one point (when I was unemployed, naturally), the power steering system began to leak. The dealer service dept. quoted me $1200 (in 1985 dollars) to replace the steering rack. I said no after calculating that I could buy a 30-year supply of power steering fluid for that amount.
All of this stuff went wrong even though the Audi was a simple car by today's standards: stick shift, crank windows, manual seats. The only options on our car were A/C & a stereo radio/tape deck.
We finally traded it in on an '87 Honda Accord that turned out to be one of the best cars we've ever owned, & I swore that I'd stick with sensible FWD Japanese sedans. Years had to pass before I was ready for another fling with a German car.
I still can't drive past an Audi dealer without flinching.
Keeping a 6.3 in perfect condition with all systems operating is like maintaining a house. Restoration simply isn't an option unless you are insane and in love - you could blow through 50K easily, and have a 20K car at the end - if you were lucky.
I'm surprised you went back to a German car at all after that Audi. Those things more or less don't exist anymore, a C2 5000 is a rare bird. Those were at least as bad as the domestic competition, the German equivalent to a Fleetwood with a 4100. I do see C3 5000s now and then however.
I remember sometime in the late 90s a nutty guy wanted to trade his very clean 83 5000 Turbo for my fintail. He let me drive it once for kicks...I'm pretty sure the turbo didn't work.
Audi still worries me, so pretty when new, but I don't trust them as they age, much less so than a BMW or MB.
Audi still worries me, so pretty when new, but I don't trust them as they age
I'm inclined to agree. Audi seems to be on a sales upswing - I see a lot more of them around than I did 4 or 5 years ago - but all of the Audi drivers I know lease their cars. That doesn't do much for my confidence in the brand's long-term durability.
The Rabbit delivered a terrific driving experience when it ran - it was fast & nimble - but was plagued with electrical problems. Finally, it threw a rod at less than 50K miles.
And THAT in a nutshell is the perfect definition of a VW Rabbit. I had an 80 built in Pennsylvania. I swore off VW and Pennsylvania after that....
The killer is VW keeps making things that catch my attention. I just can't bring myself to pull the trigger on one because of that awful car.
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I believe Audi and VW are essentially the same company so I think this is going to be an uphill battle if VW wants to take a bigger chunk of market share.
If I were to buy a new BMW tomorrow, I'd keep it simple by picking the 328i. I'd equip it with only the sport & premium packages - nothing else. That's all I need to have fun.
Optioned that way, it will go from 0 to 60 in 6.3 seconds, which is fast enough for me.
Don't let the VW siren song leave you dashed against a reef! A friend of mine bought a really nice Jetta GLI and I thought it was nice until I remembered my ex-girlfriend's problem-plagued Jetta and another friend's Jetta that was so bad he traded it at a loss for a Saturn of all things!
I wonder what would happen if we could cut defense spending in 1/2. Maybe we could pay for kids to go to college along with other beneficial programs.
So lay off people at gov contractors who then pull their kids out of college?
Then hire more wasteful gov beaurocrats to skim 30% off the top to give free college to lazy people while college educated engineers are collecting unemployment? Great use of American resources
Clinton sent me packing from my job 18 years ago in '93. He was chasing a 10% cut in defense procurement. I collected loads of unemployment and paid almost no income taxes that year. Think the taxpayer saw a net savings? I ended up in a private sector job making about twice as much.
No. IIRC, the cuts were aimed at programs & weapons that made sense at the height of the Cold War but that weren't needed after the collapse of the Soviet Union - a new class of nuclear attack subs, for example. Not too useful when you're fighting the Taliban.
Re the BMW 2002: back in 1967 or 68, I read (& was blown away by) Car & Driver's now legendary review: "Turn Your Hymnals to 2002", by David E. Davis.
I read that article at about the same time. DED Jr. Spoke at the BMWCCA's 25th anniversary celebration in 1994 and he graciously signed my original Car and Driver issue that contained "Turn Your Hymnals..."
That article convinced me that I had to own a BMW, although nearly 35 years would pass before I could actually afford one.
I only had to wait 15 years, picking up a 1973 Bavaria 3.0 in 1983. However, it did take me 40 years to bring a 2002 home...
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We are close to the point, or more likely past the point, where the loss of American jobs and industries becomes an issue of national security, not just only about "jobs". In many European nations and others, they have policies that protect nascent industries. Yes, they allow some free trade, but you can still find items made in those countries. (Look to Germany and the Czech Republic for example). They maintain the hard won knowledge and technology to still make things. Here, on the other hand, we are quickly losing our ability to make anything.
For example, Philadelphia was once home to Budd and Baldwin locomotive. Now, SEPTA, the local public transportation authority, had to contract out to a South Korean firm to build the new Silverliner IV cars to replace cars built by Budd in the 1960s. The huge Budd complex on Red Lion Road is now home to a golf course and the huge Budd factory on Hunting Park Avenue is a colossal pigeon loft. I don't think it's because it's not cost-effective to build the rail cars in Philly versus the fact we no longer even know how to build them! What are we going to do - have a seance to extract knowledge from long-dead Budd engineers or find the handful of 60-something to 100 year-old guys who still know a thing about building rail passenger cars?
This must stop! A nation that doesn't make anything of intrinsic value to add to their nation's GNP is a nation on the road to economic ruin. These issues must be addressed for the long term survival of our nation.
This must stop! A nation that doesn't make anything of intrinsic value to add to their nation's GNP is a nation on the road to economic ruin. These issues must be addressed for the long term survival of our nation.
You know what they say, "the U.S. went from a country that makes things..... to a country that makes things up!" (referring to derivatives, credit default swaps, etc.).
For example, Philadelphia was once home to Budd and Baldwin locomotive. Now, SEPTA, the local public transportation authority, had to contract out to a South Korean firm to build the new Silverliner IV cars to replace cars built by Budd in the 1960s.
As I pointed out in an earlier post, the real problem here is that we no longer have a railroad system large enough to support a domestic locomotive industry. You can blame that on the 1956 Interstate Highway Act, which made automobile travel easier & more appealing than rail travel.
When did you last travel by train? Outside of the BosWash corridor, intercity train travel in the U.S. is nearly non-existent. When my parents traveled from their home in the Northeast to visit family in the Upper Midwest in the early 50s, they traveled by train. When they made the same trip 10 years later, they flew.
I shouldn't have to point out the obvious: this isn't a free trade issue. We haven't had a national passenger rail system in 50 years. Without that, who's going to buy locomotives & passenger cars? Only a few cities have commuter rail systems of any significance, & they typically buy new equipment every 20 or 30 years. (The Long Island Rail Road, which is the country's largest commuter line, is just now retiring equipment purchased in the mid-80s.) That's not enough to support locomotive manufacturing.
Blame your beloved domestic auto manufacturers for this. They supported the '56 Interstate Act.
Naturally, that always makes me ask...will they be unionized???...if they build them in places other than Philly, than they probably left Philly because of crime, corruption, and the entire union mentality, of which I have commented numerous times...unions are good for the workers in the short run, always bad for quality and workmanship, and, watching the UAW, bad for the workers in the long run...
Let's face it...Philly has absolutely nothing that some other city cannot offer, probably cheaper, better, and a better climate to boot...well, nothing except lemko, of course...and his fleet...
I shouldn't have to point out the obvious: this isn't a free trade issue. We haven't had a national passenger rail system in 50 years
Huh?
Amtrak (even though it is government-subsidized)?
And even in my hometown (not a suburb) of less than 10K people, one could travel three times a day to Chicago or NYC, on the Erie Lackawanna, into 1970.
Trying to put factual dates into the discussion here.
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I'll bet if you graphed the average domestic content of the Detroit 3 vs. foreign nameplates, you would see the Detroit graph dropping over the past 25 years, where the foreign nameplates are steadily growing their US content.
I wonder why that is?
Is it because the D3 have boat anchor unions around their necks?
The irony to the UAW is that the Asian plants often pay a very similar wage package. BUT they don't have the featherbedding work rules and they can fire losers.
I recall that when Honda first set up shop here in the mid-80s, they paid just about exactly the then-prevailing UAW rate, which was more than twice the going rate for non-union factory workers in rural Ohio. But the company made it clear that UAW work rules would not apply in their plant.
As a result, Honda's Marysville plant could do a model year changeover in 4 hours, instead of the 2 weeks required by UAW plants at that time.
berri: "BUT they don't have the featherbedding work rules and they can fire losers."
probably very important...some book on the auto industry ("Crash?") stated that a Honda plant with 2000 workers made the same auto volume as a GM plant with 6000 workers...multiple those 4000 extra workers times who-knows how many auto plants, and you have payroll out of sight...then add their benefits, and you have too many floorsweepers making $35/hour sitting in the Jobs Bank waiting to be called to sweep up messes that don't exist in plants that no longer make cars because the UAW killed the golden goose and the workers are still too stupid to understand any of it...
Hope I don't sound TOO anti-union...
That UAW sure adds a lot of value, don't they? :surprise:
How anyone with an IQ over 60 can say that the UAW added ANYTHING to American industry, except unneeded featherbedded labor and heartache, is beyond me...
I just finished reading "Crash Course: The American Automobile Industry's Road from Glory to Disaster by" Paul Ingrassia. You would be even more appalled about the UAW after reading this book. Lots of interesting details I did not know about. And most of them not pretty at all.
Better watch out, fintail will disagree and say we are racing to the bottom.
I hope you are correct. I actually think the US has a lot of unique strengths and we may cede the #1 position, but we will still be strong (like England or France or Germany). But the US has quite a few systemic BIG problems that it needs to fix. And the current political situation is poor. Both parties suck, but hopefully necessity will change that. Unfortunately the will to fix things won't be strong enough unless things get much worse before they get better.
For that you are correct...many UAW members were functionally illiterate and could barely read or write, but they could put 5 lug nuts on a wheel or install a windshield (altho with the poor quality of the 70s-90s, you could easily dispute my assertion) but they could literlaly be quite ignorant and earn an income rivalling most doctors...I knew some autoworkers who, when they both worked overtime, made over $125K combined...in the 80s...they often lived in shacks in Detroit, but they had 2 new Caddies every year...
Those days are over...while I don't know just how much education one may need, I think it is safe to say that a high school dropout won't go too far these days, and being illiterate simply won't cut it anymore...
Where is Al Gore to invent the next internet when you need him? :P
He's busy chasing the dragon looking for massage people to "entertain" him.
The Good Wife TV show that my wife loves to watch had a story line last night about a prominent democrat who had attacked a massage person who resisted. The person had won a Nobel Prize. The person was famous for crusading to protect women in those African countries.
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Didn't his wife leave hiim?
But he probably still has Michael Moore on his side!
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The Trouble With Free Trade
I have my Married with Children beach towel in the garage with a picture of Al...
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By the late 60s, the dollar was obviously overvalued. For less than the cost of a Pontiac Bonneville, you could buy an E-class Mercedes; if you could afford a Chevy Nova, you could buy a new BMW. It didn't help that the dollar was, by law, convertible to gold. As the Vietnam War-era budget deficits undermined confidence in the dollar, foreign (usually German) corporations could demand that the Treasury buy their dollars in exchange for gold.
Finally, with gold reserves dwindling, the pressure on the dollar forced us & the other industrial powers to allow currencies to float. Overnight, the value of the D-Mark relative to the dollar doubled, as did the prices of German good. That - not tariffs - was the big story in foreign trade in 1971.
I've always believed that the devaluation of the dollar made Mercedes into a status symbol. When MB cars were cheaper than Buicks, they weren't nearly as desirable as they were when they became more expensive than Cadillacs. By 1980, the S-class was the car to drive if you wanted to look as if you'd arrived.
I wonder how high the DM would be today if not saddled with Euro baggage...or if it would be manipulated like what we let China get away with under "free trade".
I'm basing this entirely on memory - never a good idea at my advanced age - but I recall reading a Car & Driver test of either the MB 250S or the 250SE that ran in '68 or '69. The test car was equipped with automatic transmission, power steering, power brakes, A/C & AM/FM radio - just about the entire option list - & it stickered for under $6K - about what a well-equipped but not really loaded Buick or Olds would've cost at the time. (My Dad bought a fairly stripped - AM radio & no A/C - Olds Delta 88 in 1969 for $4500.)
(AFAIK, the MB 6.3 was never sold through the MB dealership network, although some cars found their way into the U.S. through other channels. Again, I could be wrong about that.)
To give you a point of reference: my then best friend's dad was a successful CPA who bought a new Sedan de Ville every 2 years. Sticker price for a well-equipped '67 Caddy was $7500. I remember seeing the window sticker for this car. It was burgundy with a black vinyl top - a truly impressive car.
Re the BMW 2002: back in 1967 or 68, I read (& was blown away by) Car & Driver's now legendary review: "Turn Your Hymnals to 2002", by David E. Davis. This used to be available as a PDF on C&D's web site, but apparently it's been taken down, so I don't know where you could find it now. It's my recollection (please - no laughter from the cheap seats) that the list price of the test car was under $3K - about what a Chevy Nova would have cost at the time. The only available options were AM/FM radio & dealer-installed A/C.
That article convinced me that I had to own a BMW, although nearly 35 years would pass before I could actually afford one.
And what's 35 years between friends???
You never made it clear...was it 35 years before you could buy the 69 2002, or a more current model???...
(Bob - the reply link is your friend! Why start a new topic when all you want to do is respond to a previous post?)
I do think the 6.3 was available through the normal dealer network, but was a special order car. As it was listed in trade pricing material several years later, there must have been enough of them out there to justify the listing. Either way, 15K was a huge chunk of change, and that car helped MB build prestige and steal sales too.
Really, the 6.3 has what pushed MB into the NA mainstream for highline sedans - a V8. The V8 cars starting ~1969 are what did it. The clattery egg beater/sewing machine I6 cars appealed to tech enthusiasts and oddballs, but the V8s opened the cars up to the affluent mass market who could now choose a powerful well trimmed car with a little handling. The V8 powered 280SE, identical to that 250SE, listed at around 8K, and coupes were over 10K. The V8 cars gave Detroit some legitimate competition, and when the larger and modern W116 hit the road in NA in 1973, the assault was in full swing, and things have never been the same since.
You should have bought a BMW sooner...cut something out of the budget and lived a little. I have no regrets about my vehicle purchases...you only live once :shades:
You're probably right about this. I recall (pesky memory again!) that C&D tested a 6.3 in '68 or '69 & pronounced it the best 4-door sedan in the world.
You should have bought a BMW sooner...cut something out of the budget and lived a little.
To tell the truth, what held me back wasn't money but horrible experiences with 2 earlier German car purchases: a '78 Rabbit & an '80 Audi 5000, both of which were bought new.
The Rabbit delivered a terrific driving experience when it ran - it was fast & nimble - but was plagued with electrical problems. Finally, it threw a rod at less than 50K miles.
The Audi set us back almost $12K at a time when a loaded, top-of-the line Honda Accord cost about $7500. Again, it was a great road car but started going to pieces almost as soon as the warranty (2 years / 24K miles in those days) expired. Countless electrical problems plus a heating / AC system that worked only when it felt up to it. At one point (when I was unemployed, naturally), the power steering system began to leak. The dealer service dept. quoted me $1200 (in 1985 dollars) to replace the steering rack. I said no after calculating that I could buy a 30-year supply of power steering fluid for that amount.
All of this stuff went wrong even though the Audi was a simple car by today's standards: stick shift, crank windows, manual seats. The only options on our car were A/C & a stereo radio/tape deck.
We finally traded it in on an '87 Honda Accord that turned out to be one of the best cars we've ever owned, & I swore that I'd stick with sensible FWD Japanese sedans. Years had to pass before I was ready for another fling with a German car.
I still can't drive past an Audi dealer without flinching.
I remember sometime in the late 90s a nutty guy wanted to trade his very clean 83 5000 Turbo for my fintail. He let me drive it once for kicks...I'm pretty sure the turbo didn't work.
Audi still worries me, so pretty when new, but I don't trust them as they age, much less so than a BMW or MB.
I'm inclined to agree. Audi seems to be on a sales upswing - I see a lot more of them around than I did 4 or 5 years ago - but all of the Audi drivers I know lease their cars. That doesn't do much for my confidence in the brand's long-term durability.
And THAT in a nutshell is the perfect definition of a VW Rabbit. I had an 80 built in Pennsylvania. I swore off VW and Pennsylvania after that....
The killer is VW keeps making things that catch my attention. I just can't bring myself to pull the trigger on one because of that awful car.
Now, the N54W bi-turbo issue is unraveling.
Twin-Turbo Recall
Just have to know when the tech is too advanced to control at the cutting edge. Thet's why your BMW keeps on ticking despite the licking.
Regards,
OW
Optioned that way, it will go from 0 to 60 in 6.3 seconds, which is fast enough for me.
My brother bought a '70 Delta with a/c and am/fm that went for $4100 new. I later owned it from '78 to '89. It only had the 2 bbl 350 though.
So lay off people at gov contractors who then pull their kids out of college?
Then hire more wasteful gov beaurocrats to skim 30% off the top to give free college to lazy people while college educated engineers are collecting unemployment? Great use of American resources
Clinton sent me packing from my job 18 years ago in '93. He was chasing a 10% cut in defense procurement. I collected loads of unemployment and paid almost no income taxes that year. Think the taxpayer saw a net savings? I ended up in a private sector job making about twice as much.
What really cost us in Afghanistan was starting up the business in Iraq. We started doing things on the cheap in Afghanistan.
Fir how things go wring in a war zone try Where Men Win Glory, which is about Pat Tillman. It'll make you angry pretty frequently but hey.
I read that article at about the same time. DED Jr. Spoke at the BMWCCA's 25th anniversary celebration in 1994 and he graciously signed my original Car and Driver issue that contained "Turn Your Hymnals..."
That article convinced me that I had to own a BMW, although nearly 35 years would pass before I could actually afford one.
I only had to wait 15 years, picking up a 1973 Bavaria 3.0 in 1983. However, it did take me 40 years to bring a 2002 home...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
For example, Philadelphia was once home to Budd and Baldwin locomotive. Now, SEPTA, the local public transportation authority, had to contract out to a South Korean firm to build the new Silverliner IV cars to replace cars built by Budd in the 1960s. The huge Budd complex on Red Lion Road is now home to a golf course and the huge Budd factory on Hunting Park Avenue is a colossal pigeon loft. I don't think it's because it's not cost-effective to build the rail cars in Philly versus the fact we no longer even know how to build them! What are we going to do - have a seance to extract knowledge from long-dead Budd engineers or find the handful of 60-something to 100 year-old guys who still know a thing about building rail passenger cars?
This must stop! A nation that doesn't make anything of intrinsic value to add to their nation's GNP is a nation on the road to economic ruin. These issues must be addressed for the long term survival of our nation.
This must stop! A nation that doesn't make anything of intrinsic value to add to their nation's GNP is a nation on the road to economic ruin. These issues must be addressed for the long term survival of our nation.
You know what they say, "the U.S. went from a country that makes things..... to a country that makes things up!" (referring to derivatives, credit default swaps, etc.).
As I pointed out in an earlier post, the real problem here is that we no longer have a railroad system large enough to support a domestic locomotive industry. You can blame that on the 1956 Interstate Highway Act, which made automobile travel easier & more appealing than rail travel.
When did you last travel by train? Outside of the BosWash corridor, intercity train travel in the U.S. is nearly non-existent. When my parents traveled from their home in the Northeast to visit family in the Upper Midwest in the early 50s, they traveled by train. When they made the same trip 10 years later, they flew.
I shouldn't have to point out the obvious: this isn't a free trade issue. We haven't had a national passenger rail system in 50 years. Without that, who's going to buy locomotives & passenger cars? Only a few cities have commuter rail systems of any significance, & they typically buy new equipment every 20 or 30 years. (The Long Island Rail Road, which is the country's largest commuter line, is just now retiring equipment purchased in the mid-80s.) That's not enough to support locomotive manufacturing.
Blame your beloved domestic auto manufacturers for this. They supported the '56 Interstate Act.
Motive Power
And they'll soon have competition in Indiana from Caterpillar.
Let's face it...Philly has absolutely nothing that some other city cannot offer, probably cheaper, better, and a better climate to boot...well, nothing except lemko, of course...and his fleet...
Huh?
Amtrak (even though it is government-subsidized)?
And even in my hometown (not a suburb) of less than 10K people, one could travel three times a day to Chicago or NYC, on the Erie Lackawanna, into 1970.
Trying to put factual dates into the discussion here.