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Comments
Then there's one for 390,000 truck tires used on Ford trucks. Oh, and 150,000 F-150s for air bag problems.
Don't see anything for GM or Chrysler. Maybe next week.
Nip-it-in-the-bud recalls, as opposed to old, forced-against-the-wall recalls, are of a far greater advantage to the consumer and usually affords greater, safer, more economical longevity.
But that said, I do think companies like Honda, Toyota and probably others like; even the new up-and-comers like Hyundai, all try to source parts from competitive bids a little too good to be true and that in itself should tell those same manufacturers that that result might turn around and bite them later. And it will always be at a poor time to attach negative publicity, so they need to find the balance of cost vs longer term value that will ultimately earn and secure a customer's continued loyalty.
Sam
Recalls are NOT equal to reliability. Reliability is when something fails. Most recalls are for things that never fail on the vehicle.
Funny how the latest RECENT Consumer Reports data show GM and C far below average, even lately. Of course I'm sure you will say CR is wrong. At least we can agree that Ford is doing well. But of course the Fusion is made in Mexico. :shades:
I think recalls should be factored in, somehow though. In some cases they're for things that are about to fail, although in many cases they're just precautionary measures.
And of course, you have to take recalls with a grain of salt. For instance, the 2000 Intrepid had 5 recalls, if I recall correctly. However, my particular 2000 Intrepid was only recalled twice. The first time was because they forgot to put information in the owner's manual entailing how to safely install a child seat in the back! For that one, they just sent an errata page with the notice and said keep it with the owner's manual.
The second recall was potentially more serious. The bolts holding up the backrest to the front seats were under-sized, and could fail in the event of a sudden jolt, like getting rear-ended. I remember calling the dealer and asking if it was something I could wait around for, or did I have to drop it off. They said it was an all-day thing. My response was, you mean it takes you all day to replace TWO bolts?! They responded with, well, we have to take the seat out of the car. And I replied with, so it takes all day to remove FOUR bolts, so you can get to TWO bolts? I don't think the lady on the other end of the phone really grasphed how silly the concept was, as she said "yes", ina voice so deadpan it would make Bob Newhart proud!
Regards,
OW
What will I do if I loose my USA job? Continue to pay for what I buy because I prepared for that also.
What's fair is fair and everything balances out sooner or later.
You make junk, you loose sales and go bankrupt. You make good products and you gain market share. :shades: You pay pennies for health care and then you do not.
You really have to face facts. Toyota is only one very worthy challenger to the to domestic brands. Government worker pay will reach parity with private industry. US jobs will grow because they are created by innovation not regulation or subsidy or unbalance.
I will buy an Optima, for instance...because it basically is at the top of the segment at the moment...it didn't land here from a distant galaxy. It developed it's way to the top. When GM can deliver that value, it will prosper. I think it will be a long time before that happens, however. Too Big to Succeed! EGO, Politics, Union.
It is what it is.
Regards,
OW
I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but you seem to advocate spending my hard earned money on American products, whether they are junk or not...if we made a better product, then buyers will break the doors down trying to buy it...why don't you offer your advice to the people who MAKE these inferior products and tell them to stop supporting the union and start supporting the company they work for...
Part of the REAL point is that after 30 years of making junk, the UAW to this day just does enough to get by, barely making their product into a superior product...that reviewer who thought the Chrysler 200 was junk was simply stating that, in the world of UAW, nothing has changed...
I can only assume that you are wealthy, so that when your new car breaks down, you just buy another one...your "cry in the wilderness" to blindly Buy American falls on deaf ears to those who have been burned MULTIPLE TIMES by rotten UAW-built junk, and spent thousands and thousands of dollars on cars that were worthless after 3-4 years, where Hondas and Toyotas seem to retain their value...you simply seem to ignore those who do not have the extra thousands of dollars to buy an American car every 3 years as opposed to those who buy imports that last 5-7 years...not everybody can AFFORD to buy Big 3 junk that falls apart in half the time of the imports...
You said this is not 1990...you are correct...but many folks were burned with Big 3 cars in the early-to-mid 2000s, say 2000-2005...that is recent memory and if you had a defective GM Denali that cost you $40K and turned out to be junk, where do YOU come off telling them to give GM another chance???...people moved to imports because, for the most part, they WERE better, plain and simple...they were made better and they depreciated slower, so they held their value better...
The UAW job you try and save is the job of a militant, often violent, unintelligent worker who would sabotage his product because his friend lost his job, rather than fight to make it better so he can keep HIS job...it is a mentality that I can only descrive as ignorant, low class and savage...these are the people who go to auto shows and vandalize the import products because they refuse to make them as good...
Do I want to buy American???...in the abstract, yes, but those American workers who think they have a divine right to their job and still make junk should be canned...the American worker should make a product that he is proud of and would make me proud to buy...
Stop taking your arguments to us, the buyers...please take them to the folks who make the stuff that you want us to buy, and tell them to make it so good that I wouldn't THINK of buying anything else...because that is NOT what we have been given by the Big 3 for 35 years (1970-2005)...
Two generations of junk severely weakens your argument to Buy American, when we have seen what the American worker thinks of us, the buyers...they put in their time, expect their gold-plated benefits, expect to pay floorsweepers $35/hour and call it "skilled labor", and expect us to buy any crap they put out, and you seem to agree with that as I read your comments...those arguments just don;t seem to mean much anymore...
We compete in a global marketplace, and the UAW acts like it is the 1950s when we were virtually the ONLY carmakers on the planet...not any more, and the companies and the union needs to wake up, and after losing a half amillion UAW members, I still think they just don't get it, and knowing how stupid their members are, I guess I understand...
Not to knock your choice or the Optima at all - as I think it is the most appealing mass market/average priced Korean sedan - but there aren't many choices one can really make if they want something that hasn't reaped the benefits of bailout and politics.
I'm actually all for increasing shareholder value, but I want to see it done the right way...building a quality product that the people want to buy, so that it turns an honest profit, and brings long term value to the shareholders. Not just a quick fat dividend that might get slashed teh following quarter, or some momentary stock bubble that benefits a few, and then wipes out the masses.
You have a valid point...when the car is poorly designed and looks like an AMC Pacer, I blame management...but management errors, like styling, often dissuade the buyer from buying anyway...
When the doors swing poorly, hinges are loose, power windows don't go up and down, loose rattling screws in the door panels, windshields that leak, parts installed backwards, hoods that don't latch, I blame the workers who made the car, and those problems don't usually show up until after you bought the car and you now have a lemon, whereas the ugly car, designed by non-UAW people, you didn't buy it to start with...
Management didn't design doors with space so workers could "store" their empty beer cans, but that is where beer cans are often found...I place more blame on a shoddy product on the people who assemble it, and that was the thrust of my comment to cannon(?)...
Many of us would seek out American products, but if unionized labor made it, I now have a healthy skepticism of its quality, tainted by the UAW...
I have seen a hint of the inadequacies in these union workers you have slammed on North American builds, but as you list them they become more embellished each time and the exaggeration becomes more apparent.
Did a UAW worker run off with your wife at some point in the past? This would better explain your utter contempt that you portray and then I would be more sympathetic to your rants/rags on the unions.
I am inclined to have more contempt for a manufacturer than its workers, for continuing to sell vehicles with known faulty:
- intake manifold design
- head gasket design
- auto transmissions
- manual transmissions
- steering running gear
- self-destructive A/C compressors
- paint
- wheel-bearing/hub/ABS assembies designed to have to be replaced as a unit no matter which component fails
- self-destructive driveline transfer cases
- lower tire pressures on one side of the car and raise them on the other to 'fix' a steering pull
etc
And then claim ignorance ("This is the first we have heard of this") when you present a very valid claim, and you are only the 10000th customer that has presented the exact same issue.
In other words, they ALL do not have clean hands and clear consciences.
Sam
When I lived in Detroit, the UAW folks used to laugh about putting beer cans in doors...if you really think that they only drank soda on the job, then you and I have nothing further to discuss...I'm surprised any of them were sober on Monday (hangover day) or Friday (pay day)...why do you think it was well known for YEARS never to buy a car built on Monday or Friday???...you think they had a sugar hangover from too much Pepsi???
We had supervisors who spot checked vehicles for build quality and consistency. Score cards kept track of offenders who had vehicles pulled off the line for correction.
I never saw any drinking on the job. I always thought Mondays were bad days to build days to purchase because of the lack of enthusiasm that the weekend was over. And that Friday was bad because of anticipating the weekend. Chronic drinkers who drank right through the weekend (I didn't know any, but in a plant of a thousand workers, there must be some stats) into a Sunday and continue into a Monday, are not that difficult to discover and would be sent home. Unions did not advocate/protect impaired members.
Beer on a person's breath is pretty hard to hide, especially if they are perspiring it right out of their pores.
Some people (those workers you mentioned) like to brag and talk the talk, but don't often walk the walk.
On a related point. I believe that the best designed cars, are the ones that have such an impressive design build that they are somewhat idiot-proof during the build process. Example, panels that in no way could ever be mounted upside down, and certainly not to go undiscovered until in the hands of its future owner. With my own findings from having worked on a number of vehicles, is that inspecting the interior of a car is somewhat of a pretty good indicator as to how competent the brand is. Small fasteners that have been over-torqued, seat staples not having a uniform closed gap or spacing, over-dabbed glue trails, or panels that are not uniformly secured with obvious pinch points/stress-whitened locking and locating tabs, and exterior trim bits are great tell-tale signs.
Sam
I have a feeling that most of the plant workers WERE conscientious. And, the majority still probably are. Unfortunately, there were, and are, enough bad workers to perpetuate the stereotype. Kinda like the lazy DMV employee...I'm sure the majority of them are NOT lazy, but there just enough...oh, who am I kidding? The DMV is NOT a good example to use!
The only pricks I ran into were the maintenance mechanics who thought in some way they were more instrumental to the line's progress than the rest of us.
Those types are still around, at least in my office environment. Only nowadays they're called "IT Support" :P
True enough. I wouldn't want their job either though. The only time someone wants you for anything is because they have a problem. And they want it fixed yesterday. :shades:
I drove it and I like it. I won't even go into a GM dealer as there is nothing that isn't under delivered and over priced yet, afaic.
Regards,
OW
I assume that you are correct...however, millions of folks deserted the Big 3 for import cars over the last 25 years or so (1980-2005???), and it isn't because I hold any power over them by what I write here...and, considering that the vast majority of folks are NOT auto aficianos like we are, they are just plain folks who want a good car and who GREW UP with Big 3 cars as the American way...yet they deserted the Big 3 and bought MILLIONS of Hondas and Toyotas and Nissans in the last few decades...
Care to venture a guess why???...(hint: it's not because Hondas have more exciting paint colors)...I would guess, and I always maintain, that the cars we made bordered on junk, barely qualified to be boat anchors, and, while management made some bad mistakes, I place blame squarely on the people who made them...if they WEREN'T drunk, then they were worthless and incompetent, at least being drunk would have been a logical excuse, so I can only default and assume that they just didn't care, or they were more concerned with getting their Blue Cross and to hell with the product...
Like it or not, millions of us deserted the Big 3, and the answer is probably quite painful to you, esp if you were one of the conscientious and competent ones who cared about the product...you were overwhelmed by the bad ones, I guess...
But I knew many of those UAW folks in Detroit, and I can assure you that MENSA was not lining up outside union halls trying to get them to join...
(Notice how deftly I insult the UAW but heap great praise on you so that we can still be friends?)...
Yes, you have skills. :shades:
I have tried to explain this in many aspects and even with some examples. I am not saying to spend your own money on "junk". However, educate yourself on what you perceive as "junk". Also on how the transplant car manufactures do business. They advertise "Made in America" yet many have U.S. content lower than 30%. Many buy their tooling from their countries of origin, support, engineers, technicians the same.
Once again many bash GM for the bail outs. Yet Toyota was bailed out by the Japanese government and that is ok?? Another poster shed light that KIA is owned by the Korean government.. thats ok?? A bit of a double standard going on here folks.
Kind of funny too how the Euro brands fall on reliability yet they still are in better consumer standing than GM/Ford/Chrysler. Audi was junk in the 70s, 80's and early 90's. But no one seems to remember this?? and its ok.
I don't figure out why our economy is in the tank... do you?
But isn't this a bit old-school? Don't GM and F also have plenty of foreign-sourced machines? And many of the foreign nameplates (Accord, Camry for example) have higher domestic content than US nameplates.
It's a global business for ALL of the makes. Heck, GM was importing Chinese engines a few years ago - the first automaker in the US to do that. The old US vs. foreign model is gone, and it will NEVER come back. That horse has left the barn.
Kind of funny too how the Euro brands fall on reliability yet they still are in better consumer standing than GM/Ford/Chrysler. Audi was junk in the 70s, 80's and early 90's. But no one seems to remember this?? and its ok.
It's not illogical. There are about 5 things people look for in cars - reliability, refinement, looks, interior quality, performance. You take a lot of Japanese vehicles, and *generally* until recently they were outstanding on reliability, mediocre looks, good interior quality, and poor to decent performance. You take European makes and they've often been poor in reliability, excellent in looks, excellent in interior quality, and good to outstanding in performance. Now you look at say, an early 2000's Taurus or Impala. Average to very poor reliability, poor refinement, poor interior quality, and decent performance. So SOMETHING needs to be outstanding. And for the US makes, almost nothing was outstanding (unless you're buying a Corvette for performance). Whereas the European makes were beautiful, high performance cars with nice interiors - which excused a lot of the reliability issues.
You could easily add a 6th and 7th - economy, comfort
And in my case, an 8th - service/repairability. Not something to be assumed in this throw-out world we have now. Cars that allow a repair without having to get hooked to a computer either before, during but especially after, get extra points from me. Again though, this is an increasingly rare car.
Sam
And I also forgot cost.
But the point remains, people will overlook drawbacks in some of those categories. But SOMETHING has to be outstanding for people to want to put their hard earned money on a vehicle. For the European makes, cost and reliability are forgiven because of the looks, performance, and styling. For the Japanese makes (generalizing), performance and looks were forgiven for economy and reliability. But the US makes (until Ford's recent renaissance) have had very little that is outstanding in their cars. Less poor in the SUVs and trucks.
Ultimately most of the foreign nameplates employ an awful lot of people in the US. And the larger numbers of inefficient workers in the US makes was unsustainable. The market is adjusting. I agree we should try to buy US made items. But that doesn't mean buying things that are crap or you don't like. Ford is becoming competitive. No reason C or Gm can't do the same. If they can't they should be allowed to go under.
But since much new money has been invested in GM and C now, I really hope they make a go of it and pay us back. And remain humbled after. (Hopefully they've been at least somewhat humbled)?
Sam
And aren't US companies importing their cars made in Mexico, Brazil and other places???...aren't those cars made with no-USa labor???
I feel your arguments sound like they should be given in front of a UAW-local meeting but carries no sense of reality...even GM, C, and F cars are not necessarily made here, yet you blindly seem to harp to "Buy American" and you may not even know what that is...
I seem to recall a few years ago that the Crown Vic/Grand Marquis line was so low in US content that it was considered to be "imported" even tho one could not think of any car that conventional wisdom called "American"...I wish I could verify that statement, but I seem to recall reading that somewhere...if true, then please tell me WHAT is an American car and WHO makes American cars???
If we always had that attitude about changes in our economy, we would all still be farming!
I always liked Mad magazine. :shades:
On the flip side, we'd all have to work to be able to afford the prices in the stores. (insert the emotorcon of your choice here).
More on the UAW story:
"If they don't restore everything [union workers] gave up, the membership is going to knock it down. The bonuses that were just announced are just ridiculous," said UAW Local 900 Plant Chairman Bill Johnson at a Ford Focus plant in Wayne, Mich.
Union workers are reviewing huge pay packages for executives and profits posted by Ford Motor Co. and General Motors Co. last year, The Detroit News reported Monday."
UAW gearing up for contract talks (UPI)
Is there any other place on earth where execs are so coddled and defended as here?
Yeah, unfortunately it is a catch-22 situation. For instance, way back in 1972, my grandparents bought a Zenith 25" console tv. Paid about $700 for it. Adjusted for inflation, that's about $3700 today.
I think the last tv I bought, a 42" LCD, about 2 1/2 years ago, was around $800, including an extended warranty I'll probably never use.
Now, as technology improves, prices tend to come down anyway. However, if that tv was made in the US, I wonder how much it would cost?
Do I have to work x hours to buy a non-Mexican made Klein screwdriver at Lowes or can I get by with one from Harbor Freight for 10% of what the US made costs? If all I want is something to stick in the kitchen junk drawer, maybe I want to save the extra buck or two and put the savings in my new car fund. Or not work overtime on the weekend.
Just think of why those items are cheap, the total costs.
Just like with our beloved irresponsible shortsighted corporate sector, people themselves don't think of what their actions make for the future.
My wife's father had a really nice set of tools, some of which were his father's, and date back as far as WWI. Unfortunately, my ne'er-do-well brother-in-law took them. For him, such nice tools are like giving a Patek-Phillippe to a chimp. The crappy Harbor Freight tools would be good enough for this knucklehead.
or to Andre. I had to google that to find out what it meant! :P
I have a small toolbox, made up of stuff my dad gave me when I got the fintail, some of the stuff is older than I am. Nothing made in China. Luckily, I haven't had to use much more than pliers, 10-11mm wrench, and screwdrivers.
The average shopper today would buy the "Patik Philip" even if turned their wrist green.
My Dad still has a set of SK Wayne tools he received as an Xmas present from my Mom in 1964. Good tools are always a good investment - not necessarily for your car, but many other things that may need repair in your household. This goes for all tools. All my garden implements are made in USA.