Buying American Cars What Does It Mean?

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Comments

  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    To me, if it is money that could go to the employee but doesn't, it is lost pay no matter how it is accounted for on a paystub.

    You can make an argument that its in fact insurance and should therefore be optional. However, I think most would skip it and then end up on welfare if they lost their job. The latter would end up as higher taxes, so it may be a wash. However, as a transfer payment I still think it has two purposes One of course to provide some income after job loss, but two, to keep money rolling into the economy.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited April 2011
    I've lived and worked in probably 6 different states and I've never seen a deduction for unemployment insurance on a pay stub.

    Employers also have to pay towards Workers Compensation and I've never seen that either listed on a pay stub either. Though it's a very real expense.

    The rates a business pays for unemployment and workers comp change year to year based on claims paid and risk etc. Just like any other type of insurance.

    I know my wife has has had to deal with the courts over unemployment claims submitted by employees she's fired (for things like theft etc). Usually it meant she had to file some paperwork explaining the termination and a judge would determine whether unemployment benefits were paid. Usually if someone is fired for legitimate reasons, they don't qualify for UE pay.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    I still think it has two purposes One of course to provide some income after job loss, but two, to keep money rolling into the economy.

    That's assuming you don't get legitimately canned.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    A friend of mine who owns a machine shop claims his workers comp premiums are almost as much as what he pays for health insurance for his employees.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    As much as health insurance?!!??! :surprise:

    I figured this was a state to state issue but it was more fun to pull the other planet comment on Bob. :P :blush:

    This may explain some more of why it is that in NJ we are constantly sending far more money to the feds than we ever see back. Maybe I need to move to where the status is reversed.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    As much as health insurance?!!??!

    That's probably not a normal scenario for most businesses. His shop only has about 20 workers, so one big claim from health care or from workman's comp can really skew premiums.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,563
    I'd pay for that insurance..in fact, economies that are now healthier than ours even use the term "insurance" for unemployment benefits, so there's something to that. It also pays more than welfare, at least if you had a decent wage when last employed.

    There's a third component to it- to keep social ills from accelerating during bad times. If all unemployment payments ceased today, what would happen? It wouldn't be pretty.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited April 2011
    I'd pay for that insurance.

    Well like many things I'm sure it wouldn't be that simple. If you are college educated (which I know you are), in a field where there are opportunities etc. The rates for UE insurance would be much smaller than if you were a HS graduate living in Michigan and the only job you've held is working on an assembly line at a GM assembly plant. That person may choose to skip the insurance even though he needs it more due to the premium costs.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    It's on our paychex in NJ:

    1.
    What Is SUI?
    *

    SUI stands for State Unemployment Insurance and Health Care Subsidy Fund. In New Jersey, state taxes include employee withholdings for unemployment.
    What Is SDI?
    *

    SDI stands for State Disability Insurance. In New Jersey, state taxes include employee withholdings for disability.
    How Much SUI/SDI Do Employees Have to Pay?
    *

    The SDI employee rate is 0.50 percent on $29,700 for 2010. The SUI employee rate is 0.4250 percent on $29,700 for 2010. The employee rate includes the 0.3825 percent tax for the Unemployment Compensation Fund and 0.0425 percent for the Workforce Development Fund.
    How Much SUI/SDI Do Employers Have to Pay?
    *

    For new employers in New Jersey, the SDI base rate is 0.5 percent and the SUI base rate is 3.30 percent. All other employers have a wage limit of $29,700 for SDI and SUI for 2010.

    Read more: What Is the New Jersey SUI/SDI Tax? | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/info_7905787_new-jersey-suisdi-tax.html#ixzz1JFLR5tWV
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,563
    Yeah that makes sense. I still don't have a problem with it, personally - but I think it should be counted as an employee sacrifice rather than employer benevolence.

    It might not be self-sustaining, but as social welfare goes, it probably produces more positive impacts than most other programs. More than endless tax breaks for the executive classes, anyway.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited April 2011
    I still don't have a problem with it, personally

    I don't either and it's probably better off the way it is versus having it as an option that individuals can decide to have or not. Unfortunately, to many aren't able or willing to make proper decisions. The latter would probably cause the program to run in the red (due to adverse selection) and/or not enough people would be covered.

    Plus, I'm sure workers compensation insurance is a motivator for employers (should be anyway) to maintain a safe work environment. Every employee that gets hurt on the job continues to gets paid regardless of fault at the employers expense.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I think companies are more concerned with the amount of a loaded labor dollar than the specific composition. The US is probably lower in this area than a lot of developed nations, except for some high cost individual union contracts. However, our killer is getting to be health costs. Something's got to change because the US has the highest health care costs, yet middling results in most articles and surveys I've seen.
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    "I figured this was a state to state issue but it was more fun to pull the other planet comment on Bob."

    I have been an employer in Michigan and Georgia, and I was taxed on my payroll for unemployment and the employee never saw a dime withheld from their paycheck...same with work comp...

    Now, in Michigan, there was something called SUB pay...strictly UAW if I remember correctly...when you were laid off, unemployment paid, I think, 85% of your regular pay...in that instance, all the UAW folks voluntarily paid into a fund X dollars a week, which then made up the missing 15%, so when you were unemployed, your paycheck literally stayed the same...since it was assumed that only a small percentage were on unemployment at any given time (back in the 70s and 80s), ALL of them paid into the fund so that SOME of them received 100% of their paycheck...that was a voluntary deduction that had nothing to do with statutory unemployment...

    BTW, I agree when there is a major union contract, every penny of compensation is calculated to the nth degree, so even the unemployment cost is figured in as total compensation...

    But for the little employer, 25 folks or less, they were not paying CPAs millions of $$$ to figure it out...if they needed another employee or two, they basically looked at what the wage would be and added in the matching Soc Sec that was also a tax on the employer...they acknowledged that comp and unemployment were going to be paid, but it simply wasn;t calculated to the last penny...if you needed another employee due to increased sales, the unemployment tax would not stop you from hiring someone...only when you laid folks off and your premiums went up did you really start to notice just how much unemployment (or work comp) cost you..naturally, if the cost became prohibitive, you moved the plant south where costs are lower...

    So, yes, I am from this planet, and my experience is that unemp is a tax on the employer...period...
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    However, our killer is getting to be health costs. Something's got to change because the US has the highest health care costs, yet middling results in most articles and surveys I've seen.

    Yes that is a problem. I did see a report the other day that once a person is diagnosed with cancer, the survival rate is best in the US. So I guess that's good. Only you'll need all that extra time to pay for the care if you don't have adequate insurance:(

    We can go on and on about the possible solutions. I'm sure we can all at least agree that costs are way out of line. The faults are everywhere from our lifestyle (overweight etc), government regulations, the industry itself, and everything in between. This is probably not the forum to debate it.
  • motorcity6motorcity6 Member Posts: 427
    China owns a big chunck of GM, and the Italians now own 30% of Chrysler..Ford is a stand-alone, right..The UAW is big at GM and Chrysler with ownership directly..Who cares where the components come from and where they are assembled..Less components will be mfgrd in this country due mainly to our govt mandates on pollution and the high wages..

    Spent 30+yrs in the component supply business to the Big3, and I watched the landscape change..The business is not coming back to this country, and final assembly will be the only avenue left to the auto cycle for the USA..

    My 06 Supercharged Pontiac and 2010 Mustang GT will be just fine for the few years, then I will see how the auto game works..
  • cannon3cannon3 Member Posts: 296
    in the 1970's we imported just under 7% of our goods/services, Now we IMPORT about 60% of our goods and services!!! How is this good for this country?? Someone please explain how exporting a countries wealth is a good idea? I try my hardest to buy American goods and services. I am telling you folks, if we don't turn this ship around we are ALL going to have some serious problems in the next decade. NO ONE is going to be immune to the next economic "downturn". Heck, have we even climbed out of this one yet?? Could have fooled me if we have..
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Link please.

    I read about a month ago that we still export more than we import...
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    How do you import a service? Phone support?
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Actually, services is an area we export more than we import. Services would be stuff like engineering, marketing, and finance etc.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Open Letter from an old American soldier:

    "Alas, our once proud country is being led by lying, thieving, greedy P.O.S.'s who have no integrity and don't give a crap about anything but filling their own pockets. Both political parties are equal in blame.

    I'm as patriotic as they come. The flag flies in my front yard 24/7/365.
    Both of my parents served in WWII. Three of my Uncle's were killed in Korea before I even got to know them. My older Brother & I both went to Vietnam. I came home alive. He didn't.
    My son has served in both Iraq and Afghanistan. He will retire from the Army this year.
    I get tears in my eyes when the Stars and Stripes go up the flagpole at sporting events.

    Now I have tears in my eyes as I watch the country I love falling into the depths of despair because of money, greed, stupidity, and the short-sightedness of a few hundred fools who call themselves representatives of the people.

    I'm getting up there in years, and I'm close to the point where I would welcome death so I don't have to watch a bunch of worthless suits run this once great country into the ground.
    My anger is changing into a deep sadness. Especially when I think of the legacy that we're leaving to our children and grandchildren."
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Lemko, we're losing the moderate middle in politics just like we are losing the middle class economically. I have hopes this will run out its course in the next few years and more moderate attitudes will reemerge, otherwise the US will begin a steeper decline and countries like China and Brazil may well surpass us faster than we imagine today. It's kind of ironic that our state department talks about corrupt regimes when America seems to becoming more corrupt each year in politics and corporate executive suites.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,563
    Nice parallel, I hadn't really thought of it. No middle ground in politics and an evaporating middle class are coming hand in hand. What a coincidence.

    The BRICs still have undefendable socio-economic gaps that easily can prevent them from really breaking out. As of now, they still need us pretty dearly, corruption and idiocy and all.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I think a significant shrinking of the middle class will result in our economy tanking. Ironically, that result will also hurt a lot of the wealthy, but Washington and Wall Street seldom seem to think anything through much beyond a few quarters. I don't think the BRICs will emerge this decade, but I think the way we're going it could happen in several decades instead of the mid century that is currently being forecast by many. I mean, high debt, dying middle class is kind of like an overly leveraged company rapidly losing market share isn't it?
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    "Lemko, we're losing the moderate middle in politics"...part of the PROBLEM is the "moderate middle" that you seem so sorry we are losing...most of the moderate middle have govt programs that are, simply unconstitutional...

    The moderate middle fights for "reasonable" gun registration, which is totally unnecessary and is how Hitler went to all the homes that had the guns...

    The moderate middle thinks that the rich should pay a higher percentage of their income in taxes, following the line of the Communist Manifesto...

    The moderate middle thinsk that govt should intrude into everyone's lives, just not "too much"

    The hard right wants to shuit down 2/3 of the fed govt, and, if it succeeded, we would get the feds out of our lives and go back to the way it should be...

    The hard left wants us to surrender everything to the almighty fed govt because they are unwilling to run their own lives, as tho govt bureaucrats have any more intelligence then we do...

    I keep praying for the hard right to shut down most of the fed govt and simply get them out of our lives...coin money and provide for the common defense...

    The moderate middle is simply leading us to Communism on a slightly slower pace than the hard left...that to me is unthinkable, and that is why I think the moderate middle is neither, and it sure ain;t moderate, just left wing in wolf's clothing...

    Losing the moderate middle is a blessing...
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,563
    edited April 2011
    The hard right wants this to be an unregulated Dickensian labor market with a glorified theocracy in control.

    The hard right wants no accountability for the rich and sweatshop society for the rest. While the sons of the masses die in well-crafted wars so the sons of those rich can profit from it.

    We don't need to emulate lowering quality of life areas...like Georgia...

    No middle ground, no future.

    Oh, and gun control with [non-permissible content removed]? I knew this when I was in high school...not relatable to this society.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,563
    edited April 2011
    The nation is built on the middle class and has been for generations. Lose it and the US becomes a glorified banana republic just like those some believe we should mimic. The dyign middle class is much more worrisome than the debt...because the top few aren't going to want to pay for anything.

    Without a significant (in terms of percentage, not raw numbers) middle class, the BRICS won't go too far. There's social strife always at the forefront or just around the corner in all of them, and it all comes from socio-economic gaps.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Losing the moderate middle is a blessing...

    I just don't buy it. Neither the far right nor left can govern successfully because they will never hold a sufficient majority of Americans. A country has to recognize all of its constituents, not just one line of thought (unless its a dictatorship I suppose). If you're honest, Ronald Reagan may have been right wing in some areas, but overall he really was more of a moderate (and he governed relatively successfully). Moderates as commies - c'mon, are the Atlanta Braves having a bad game today or something? That's even a bit extreme talking for you!
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited April 2011
    Please try to keep the topic related to cars.

    Your letter smells a bit fishy Lemko but I don't see it on Snopes (kind of an odd one to make up because there are some real ones out there that are a bit similar).
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    A lot of this has something to do with cars. We may soon no longer be able to afford cars or the fuel to power them because of corporate and political interests that seek to deprive us of any semblance of a decent quality of life.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,563
    Not to mention because of the actions of those globalist one worlders, there will eventually be no such thing as an American car anyway - you'll get something assembled by a foreign owned factory, or a supposed domestic nameplate in a cheap labor market.

    Politics and economics are indeed directly linked to this industry.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited April 2011
    Indeed, and that's what the topic is about - buying American cars and what it means.

    The other stuff is already being hashed out over in the Obama discussion in OTC.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Sort of like seeing General Electric, Sunbeam, Oster, Rival, Proctor-Silex, etc. on a toaster. They were once-respectable names slapped on some inferior foreign-manufactured product at the lowest cost for the greatest profit. So what if it falls apart in about a year? That stuff is garbage made for the teeming masses. It's not only American names slapped on garbage. I see plenty of once-respectable Japanese names such as Sony and Toshiba on garbage products from third-world toilets. It's bad enough one can't find decent furniture anymore and I'm soon to shop in thrift stores to find anything decent. American Signature? Should call it Chinese Kanji. Pennsylvania House? How about Shanghai Slum.

    I sure as heck ain't buying a luxury car made in China! No Lincorn Slum Car or Cadirrac Coupe de Ghetto for me! Is it going to come to the point we'll actually see a Chin-E-Class Mercedes AMG, (Asian Manufactured Garbage) on our shores?
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    I sure as heck ain't buying a luxury car made in China!

    No Chinese Buicks for you? They look pretty nice! I'm waiting for the new Chinese GM Pagoda model to come to the U.S.!
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,563
    Some names have really sold out. Sony surely doesn't mean what it once did. Luckily, the people of the past held on to things, so estate sales etc are gold mines full of quality household items. There's so much durable old stuff left that one doesn't need to buy anything new but tech toys.

    I won't touch a Chinese car either, simply based on principle. I doubt a Chinese-built MB would ever fly in first world markets - many who put up with German cars are Teutonophiles, and being made in the fatherland is worth a lot to them, myself included.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,563
    Isn't a pagoda Japanese? :P

    Besides, MB had a car with that nickname nearly 50 years ago:

    image
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Isn't a pagoda Japanese?

    Besides, MB had a car with that nickname nearly 50 years ago:


    That's what I get not researching my jokes properly!

    How about that new Buick Bejing? :P
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,966
    ...I would think that NOBODY starts a business with the intent to fail

    I would disagree with you on that as I think there's a lot of financial service companies, banks, loan originators, insurance companies and other bailed out entities that most certainly tried to fail on purpose and fail as BIG as possbile so their bailout would be as ASSURED as possible. The worse you fail, the more chance you have of getting bailed out in this country. I think many EXECS and owners realized this, and purposely tried to extract as much salary and profit and bonus as possible before claiming/realizing the losses, drove the company to extinction on purpose, only knowing all too well the gov't would make the wrong decision and bail them out.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,966
    The harder you fail, the worse your performance, the steeper you point the nose down, the quicker you lose market share, the more you are rewarded with gov't subsidies in the good ol' USA.

    The best business model equals the model of immense failure!

    Immense failure = Bonus and Severance package bonanza in the US of A.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    I think you miss a point...long before the word "bailout" was so common, businesses that did not work were allowed to fail...nobody intends to fail, at least under the old rules...

    Yeah, there were a few glaring exceptions...Chrysler in 1982, for example, but not so many until the last 3-4 years...
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,966
    I'm glad you mentioned Chrysler as a glaring exception. Do people alive today even realize that had the mistake of bailout #1 never been committed, then the mistake of bailout #2 would never have even been a decision the politicians could blunder?

    How long until bail out #3 occurs, or is at least requested?
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Not a huge fan of bailouts, but a realist on the economy. However, you do realize that the government made a rather tidy profit off of the original Chrysler bailout? Not sure that will happen on the more recent ones, but part of that problem is politics pushing the government to get out too quickly instead of letting it maximize its return. Too many wacko extremists on both sides of the aisle in Washington.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,704
    >I'm glad you mentioned Chrysler as a glaring exception. Do people alive today even realize that had the mistake of bailout #1 never been committed, then the mistake of bailout #2

    For those against bailouts..., I was reading about a bailout in 1939 where a company was given bailout loans from the government and the Marshall Plan to restart in Ingolstadt. Later they were bailed out by Diamlero-Benze eventually to the tune of owning 100% of the company. Later set up in business again. But eventually Volkswagen bought 50%. All these purchases by other manufacturers sound like bailouts; a viable company doesn't need to be helped with other companies buying in.

    With all this history of bailouts and help for survival by other auto companies, who would ever buy an AUDI!!!

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    "However, you do realize that the government made a rather tidy profit off of the original Chrysler bailout? Not sure that will happen on the more recent ones, but part of that problem is politics pushing the government to get out too quickly instead of letting it maximize its return."

    It is NOT up to the govt to decide who lives and who dies, let the market figure that out..."maximizing its return" is a diversionary tactic that implies that the govt SHOULD bail out dying or unsuccessful companies...just because the govt made money is no reason to justify interfering in the market...what would the response be if the govt lost money???

    Keep the govt out of it...if Germany wants to bail out Audi, I don't care...
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,704
    >if Germany wants to bail out Audi,

    Marshall Plan is US money!

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    You don't think Japan wouldn't bail-out Toyota if they got in trouble? Some countries understand the grave importance of maintaining a viable industrial base!
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,704
    >You don't think Japan wouldn't bail-out Toyota if they got in trouble?

    Of course they have and still do. They subsidized various industries that engaged in dumping their product into the US to maintain production in the "homeland" and to weaken and then take over the US market for that item.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    "maximizing its return" is a diversionary tactic that implies that the govt SHOULD bail out

    No, whether I agree with a bailout or not, when the government executes such an action it should manage it in a manner that maximizes the financial return to the taxpayers.

    However, under your approach there really shouldn't be government subsidies of any kind. That includes peanut farmers in Georgia, corn farmers in Iowa, sugar farmers in Florida, etc. Also, a state or local government tax incentive to a company ends up out of taxpayers pockets, so then they shouldn't be allowed either since these reflect the government giving a potential advantage to a particular company, right? That means you're going to have a hard time buying your next car because these have been given to pretty much all of the D3 and transplants.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    The Marshall plan also didn't exist in 1939. It started in 1947.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,704
    "A new West German headquartered Auto Union was launched in Ingolstadt, Bavaria with loans from the Bavarian state government and Marshall Plan aid.[19] The reformed company was launched 3 September 1949 "

    >didn't exist in 1939.

    Thanks. Typo.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

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