Buying American Cars What Does It Mean?

bumpy

Or you could just put the current Impala out of its misery, and set up a production line to build restyled versions of these.

ubbermotor

Would I buy a Corolla over Cobalt? A Civic, yes, but a Corolla no. In my mind the Corolla ranks right up there with the Tuarus, Explorer and Lecrosse as wonder cars. I wonder why people buy them. Is it more refined than a Cobalt? Most likely, but the ones I've been are still cheap little beaters.

For that matter, I would take a STS over and LS430 (but not over a GS430, and I have no interest in a DTS), and a XLR over an SC430, and an SRX over an RX350.

I would even take a Monte Carlos SS over a Camry Solara, an HHR over a Matrix, a Tahoe over a Land Cruiser and Suburban over Sequoia, as well as Silverado over Tundra.

On the other hand, I would take a Camry (or even better, an Accord) over a Malibu, a Solara over a G6 coupe, a Tacoma over a Colorado, a Highlander over a Trailblazer and unless they screw up the 300 sometime soon, the Impala, Lucerne and Avalon can be ignored.

2zmax

All I got to say is that the average Aussies better get paid double what we make, as there is no way in hell I would pay these kinds of $$$ for those cars.

0-100 km/h - exteremely unremarkable, considering that MAzda 3s does that with a 2.3L I-4.
While costing $10,000 Less

No, I do not know the exchange rate either.
But I'm sure someone will tell me

kdhspyder

Let's muddle the picture some more.
1. Most automobile manufacturers (especially the Japanese in the US) build plants in other countries to circumvent IMPORT QUOTAS imposed by the host country.

This is going to take a little time, bear with me.

Currency, Jobs, etc.

Lots of comments have been made in prior posts about currency and linking it with loss of jobs and manufacturing and some inocuous patriotic sentiment about the US Dollar. This is really what is happening and how the government uses ( manipulates the currency ) for our overall benefit. Here is a very basic example, it's not precise but it explains how the system works.

German auto worker gets paid 20 euros/hr
US auto worker gets paid $20 /hr
Japanese auto worker gets paid 20 yen/hr

One weekend the US$ is suddenly devalued by 50%, just because of 'market' conditions. The other two remain unchanged. What is the effect on the three workers? Nothing, there is no effect.
They still eat bratwurst, steak and sushi for dinner.
Their mortgages are unchanged.
Tuition at schools is unchanged.
The all still get paid 800 currency units for 40 hours work.
The cost of the BMW / F150 / Camry that each makes, then buys, remains unchanged.

So what! The $US is just worth 50% less on the international markets. But since we are discssing international if the US worker wants to vacation in Germany the hotel that cost 100 euros = $100 dollars last year now still costs 100 euros but since the US$ is worth only 50% the vacationer will have to cough up $200 this year for the same room in the same German hotel. Now reverse it. A German visitor paid $100 = 100 euros last year but since the 50% devaluation that same room here while still at $100 this year only costs him 50 euros. WooHoo if you're a German tourist.!!! America is on sale at a 50% discount everywhere!! People flock here to take advantage of the bargains.

Including businesses............

Land and plants and steel and plastic and everything is on sale at a 50% discount. Including labor!!!! If it costs $100 or 100 euros or 100 yen per worker to build a car in US/G/J, after the devaluation it looks to a 'tourist' businessman like he can buy US labor at half price because it only cost them 50 euros this year to buy $100 worth of American labor. So guess what, let's use discounted US labor to build our auto's.

Is this good or bad? It's both actually but in the nearterm it's only good. 'Foreign' investors come to the States and build worldclass new plants because the US worker is relatively well educated and skilled and they work at a 50% discount to the rest of the world. ( Side note: The US worker doesnt know anything about this since he still makes $20/hr or about $800 per week and nothing has changed in his life, it's just like in the past ).

So what is the overall effect of this 50% devaluation? Increased investment here, property prices going up as more and more people flock to buy, we sell everything we can make because it's way below the world market, people are being hired left and right in new plants and businesses, in other words the economy is booming!!

This has been the last 20 years!!! But it gets better.. see next post.

socala4

New cars in much of the world are expensive as compared to the US. The Aussies have high car taxes, plus they have created some regulations to protect "their" domestic auto industry (which, oddly enough, is comprised of Ford and GM). On the plus side, registration is reasonable and insurance is cheap, and used cars can be had at a reasonable price.

It helps to remember when looking at the Aussie prices that the taxes are included, which makes comparing to American prices not apples-to-apples. But even if you factor in the exchange rate, they still get stung by the fact that their incomes (in US dollar terms) are also lower. So overall, they pay a pretty steep price to get themselves into new sheet metal.

lemko

Sounds like you got a lemon. This is assuming strict attention to maintenance. My cars endure the harsh urban environment of Philadelphia every day and NONE of those things have ever occurred. Even if they did, I wouldn't give up on GM entirely. I've had awful girlfriends in the past but I didn't give up on women altogether and become celibate because of a few bad experiences. For me to drop GM because of lemon car and buying a Toyota would be akin to going into a monastary because some girl broke up with me.

bumpy

A V6 Accord starts around $40k in Ozzy, so you can whack about a third off their prices to get the comparable US MSRP ($22k for the base V6, $32k for the SS).

drewmeister

For me to drop GM because of lemon car and buying a Toyota would be akin to going into a monastary because some girl broke up with me.

I have to disagree here. To drop GM and decide to never drive again would be a more valid analogy. I would think changing brands would be more akin to choosing one girl over another.

I think the reliability question is a good one though, in that I could never have commuted all the distances I have had to back in the seventies, or even the eighties really. Cars in general have become better. It is now possible to drive 45+ miles to work each day reliably, even in a Hyndai (which is a much different car than it was in 1985).

kdhspyder

Currency, Jobs, etc...

Many if not most here may not have gone through the 70's when interest rates hit upwards of 20%+ for the best credit risks. As a result of this experience the US Fed Res has made a concerted effort not to allow this to happen again.

Credit cards @ 24%, Mortgages @ 16%, Business Loans @18% and auto loans @19% and up. As you can imagine not a lot was being bought.

Over the last 30 years the Fed has made a concerted effort to bring interest rates down to encourage business, investment and consumer buying. From rates in the high teens they declined into the low single digits a couple of years ago.

Now make yourself a big investor anywhere, Omaha, Dusseldorf or Hong Kong. You have money to invest lot's of it like a major bank. You want it liquid so you want a T-Bill or similar currency-like note each of which has an interest rate imputed to it. Would you invest in a 15% rate or a 2.5% rate. The 15% of course, you make more money. 30 years ago the US T-Bill rate was in the 15% range but 2 years ago it was in the 2.5% range. Investors who loved the 15% returns sold more and more US$ as the Fed continued to drive down the interest rates from 15% to 2.5%. This is the actual method that the Fed used to 'devalue' the US$ on the international market. They made it less attractive to investors.

But....

There is a huge upside to driving down interest rates as we all know:
- credit card rates go down
- consumer spending goes up, all businesses/services profit
- mortgage rates go down
- housing values go out of sight
- re-fi rates go down
- more luxury items are bought
- business loan rates go down so businesses can borrow more and expand
- employment expands
- auto loan rates go down
- auto sales go up nearly 40%
- the stock market goes into orbit as more money is moved there from CD's
- investment portfolios make American's wealthier than atany other time in our history

Thus the Fed by driving down interest rates, they do have to balance it to keep inflation from coming back, has given all of us here a huge gift in the way of less expensive money. But the overall effect is that the US$ is much much less attractive to investors and thus internationally it is devalued.

Versus the Japanese Yen the devaluation is about 65% since the 70's and it's about 15-20% vs the Euro since the late 90's.

The result to us here is massive prosperity over the last 20 years as:
productivity has grown
production has increased
cost of money has been decreased
employment has soared; effective 'zero unemployment' in certain places
investment in new plants and equipment is on a rampage
the lifestyle of the US worker has changed not a whit ( see post #1545 ) or has improved
new developments and changing methods are being implemented everywhere

Due to the currency devaluation since 1970, to the rest of the western world the US appears to be an emerging 3rd world producer with dirt cheap labor and massive resources.
Is it a wonder then that 'foreign investors' want to build plants here and use American labor?

bmk32

"They have excelled at delivering their services"

Does that include all the luggage those airlines lose on a regular basis ? How about all those dropped calls we experience from those "outstanding" telecom companies ?

What a bunch of bunk !

bmk32

socala4 - you probably weren't around when Toyota / Datsun / VW, etc, made some of the most unrelaible junk on the planet. Japanese and German cars all had a poor reputation. Today, Mitsubishi still makes junk, Nissan is below average, VW is still un-reliable. Toyota is the only company that has built a quality product, but Lexus is just badge engineering, and Scion's are tin boxes on wheels, kinda like the first [non-permissible content removed] cars to come to these shores. Toyota cars and trucks are flat out boring to look at. I've driven them in the rental fleets in California they are just satisfactory. About as exciting as buying your Mother a sewing machine.....

bmk32

They don't have to make those comparison's because the 300 and Mustang are two OUTSTANDING cars. Does Toyota even still make a Celica ?

scape2

what buying made in the U.S. means....

1. Think longterm about your purchase. We are programmed to think shorterm. Sure, it may be less upfront but what are the real economic paybacks in the future.

2. We are all tied together in this economy. I don't work, I don't buy or use the services you provide.

3. Think government jobs are safe? Nope. Think about it for a moment. People don't work. No taxes, no increased revenue for both State, city, and Federal governments..

Really doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this one out here folks. We have sent Millions upon millions of dollars of our wealth overseas never to be seen again..

froggersjc

Bumpy,
I don't know, but that thing looks exactly like a Hyundai Sonota from the front.

bmk32

I will vote for you if you run for President ! Excellent post....

kdhspyder

Here is one key point you miss. The American buyer is boring. He/she knows it and it is nothing to be ashamed about. Except to those on auto-enthusiast boards the auto is a tool, many have said an appliance, that just has to get from A to B to C and back to A. Nothing more except that it should last indefinitely, be able to be sold, need no attention at all and preferable be dirt cheap ( see Hyundai successes ).

This is not a small part of the market... it's the major part of the market - for autos.

What HonYotaNisDai have recognized is that boring sells.

BTW, the Celica was replaced by the tC and it sells three times as many vehicles as the Celica did in any of the last 10 yrs. It's just one more misunderstanding that the Detroiters have of the US buyer.

kdhspyder

As most who have said your words before in the last 1500 posts you havent thought your statements through very well.

1) Good point. Think into the future. The Fusion benefits the economy of Mexico primarily.. the Camry benefits the economy of the US primarily. I agree completely with your statement. Go with the Camry.

2) Good point. We are in the most dynamic economy on earth with the highest level of creativity and productivity. There are jobs for everyone who wants to work and is willing to learn

3) Govt jobs? Huh? where did this come from? Everyone who wants to work is working and taxes are being generated all over the place .. but being drained faster to Iraq.

It's your conclusion that's off target. What millions and millions of dollars of our wealth? Because of the devalued nature of our dollar we cannot send our wealth overseas... no one wants it. That's the real situation.

rorr

"BTW, the Celica was replaced by the tC and it sells three times as many vehicles as the Celica did in any of the last 10 yrs."

sidetrack -

Not to rain on your parade or anything but Toyota lost me when they killed my Celica. I test drove a tC. A tC will NOT be replacing my Celica. I'm sure that Toyota DOES know the U.S. market very well (as evidenced by continued gains in market share). But I'll be looking elsewhere when (if) my Celica dies.

kdhspyder

As you may know there is a new rumored Celica under wraps in a couple of years or three.

It did lose some enthusiastes when it was killed, but at $23K it was just too pricey. The tC generates more buzz and draws an entirely new buyer into the fold, at a $6000 discount yet.

PF_Flyer

Please do not let these discussion turn personal. Let's avoind any name calling a personal shots. Thanks

Back to the fray! :P

socala4

Toyota is the only company that has built a quality product, but Lexus is just badge engineering, and Scion's are tin boxes on wheels, kinda like the first [non-permissible content removed] cars to come to these shores.

"[non-permissible content removed]" is a racist term, so you really blow your credibility out of the water when you refer to others in that way.

Honestly, if this is just a proxy for Pearl Harbor, then you need to go rent a war movie (I like "The Thin Red Line" myself) and be done with it.

Update: Japan is a democracy, and companies such as Honda and Toyota not only consistently build good products, but they build many of those products right here in the US, paying US wages and taxes, supporting US suppliers and adding GDP to our economies, all while reducing our trade deficit with their domestically produced goods.

And it is a different country from China. It doesn't peg its currency to the dollar, it isn't communist, and it isn't a dictatorship.

Toyota cars and trucks are flat out boring to look at.

I agree, Toyota design is dull, with the interesting cars generally bearing the Scion and Lexus nameplates. (IMO, this is the company's Achilles' Heel and the one real opportunity that competitors might have to compete with it.)

But Toyota can get away with being dull, because the cars are the most reliable, best assembled cars on the planet, bar none, and every consumer who isn't beating the Big 2.5 drum knows it. (Even I know it, and I have a German car.)

GM and Ford made their bed, and they will need to lie in it. The Big 2 will need to beat Toyota on styling, features, driving experience or some other product feature, plus beat it (not just match it) on reliability consistently and across their entire product lines before they can hope to regain significant market share over the long haul.

When you burn your reputation, you need to work extra hard to get it back. GM needs to behave like a sincere, reformed ex-convict -- work extra hard to regain trust, go out of its way to earn that trust, and not be surprised if it takes a long time for everyone to believe it.

marine2

So what! The $US is just worth 50% less on the international markets. But since we are discssing international if the US worker wants to vacation in Germany the hotel that cost 100 euros = $100 dollars last year now still costs 100 euros but since the US$ is worth only 50% the vacationer will have to cough up $200 this year for the same room in the same German hotel. Now reverse it. A German visitor paid $100 = 100 euros last year but since the 50% devaluation that same room here while still at $100 this year only costs him 50 euros. WooHoo if you're a German tourist.!!! America is on sale at a 50% discount everywhere!! People flock here to take advantage of the bargains.

Including businesses............

Land and plants and steel and plastic and everything is on sale at a 50% discount. Including labor!!!! If it costs $100 or 100 euros or 100 yen per worker to build a car in US/G/J, after the devaluation it looks to a 'tourist' businessman like he can buy US labor at half price because it only cost them 50 euros this year to buy $100 worth of American labor. So guess what, let's use discounted US labor to build our auto's.


What if that 50% devaluation stayed in effect? Wouldn't Europe and Japan raise the price of goods they ship into the U.S.? Of course they would. They are not going to sell those goods at the same price when the value of the dollar fell by half. It doesn't just effect the guy that's vacationing over there. If effects everyone buying goods abroad.

They could get a good deal vacationing over here and our exports would be cheaper for them to buy. But we have very little to sell them anyway. Take the planes and computers away, and what do we have to sell.

socala4

What if that 50% devaluation stayed in effect? Wouldn't Europe and Japan raise the price of goods they ship into the U.S.? Of course they would. They are not going to sell those goods at the same price when the value of the dollar fell by half. It doesn't just effect the guy that's vacationing over there. If effects everyone buying goods abroad.

I think the point is that all of those folks who falsely claim that there has been "currency manipulation" fail to recognize that if Japan was doing such a thing, then it is doing a pretty lousy job at it, because the dollar has been generally declining in value for the last two decades.

Which is something folks like yourself should want, because you are so focused on the trade deficit. Anyone whose primary concern is competition from imports should want a weak dollar that falls like a rock in value, i.e. something like the residuals on a Buick.

There are advantages and disadvantages to a "strong" dollar. A "strong" dollar makes imports cheaper, thus encouraging an increase in the trade deficit, but it also makes the US economy a more attractive investment to the foreign investors that the US needs to support that trade deficit. Cheap imports also help to keep inflation low, which allows the US to maintain low interest rates, encouraging growth and investment, while putting more disposable incomes into our pockets by keeping prices low.

By the way, I am concerned about the trade deficit, and I do make an effort to buy American goods when those are quality goods that I am proud to own. (For example, I will happily pay a premium for quality tools that are US-made.) But second-rate, uncompetitive American goods don't interest me, at any price.

Secondarily, I don't mind buying imported goods from first world democracies such as Canada, Western Europe and Japan, all of which are similar to the US politically and with which the US shares common interests.

I am more reluctant to buy goods from the PRC, because it is a dictatorship and likely a viable threat to the US over the long run. But China is not Japan, and as of today, we are not importing any Chinese cars.

Ironically, the company with the greatest market share in China and one of its largest automakers is General Motors. I really don't like the idea of buying a GM product knowing that it will be using those dollars to become further invested in China. Odd that spending your money on Detroit iron is one of your best ways to help a communist country.

kdhspyder

The devaluation process has been going on for over 20 yrs ever since the Fed really got a hold on interest rates.

Your first question though is backward. When a currency is devalued imports are immediately more expensive. They dont have to raise the prices of goods shipped here they have to lower them in order to sell at the prevailing market price.

But yes you are right the offshore producer, in order to cover costs and make a profit, has to raise prices eventually in the new market or he will lose big bucks. Most markets though are price-sensitive so raising the price too high kills off sales quickly.

A BMW made in Germany, sold in Germany brings say 40000 euros. With the US$ being devalued 20% ( 1 US$= 0.80 Euro ) in order to make the same money on a vehicle shipped to the US, BMW would have to charge the US buyer about $49000 in order to convert that money back to 40000 Euros.

This is the downside to a devalued currency. Since it's a small world anything imported is immediately more expensive when looking at it from our perspective.

imidazol97

Couldn't have said it better myself.

marine2

Does anyone know what some of the biggest exports we have to Japan and China? Outside of planes, it's beef, (which we have already lost almost half of that market to Australia.) Also fish, agriculture products and timber. Timber Japan won't even allow us to cut. One of our biggest exports to China is newspaper and cardboard. This country is in sorry shape. We wonder why the trade imbalance is so high. We don't make anything that these countries can't make cheaper. Now all we need to do is lose the auto market. And hope it keeps raining so our farmers can export and America keeps reading papers.

imidazol97

It's interestng that a Pontiac complaint happens to get posted in Buying American Cars What Does It Mean instead in the Pontiac section where it would be more effective in swaying someone who might have wanted to buy a Pontiac.

And it's interesting that's the first and only post by sharp3 after signing up today.

I can give you links to the Pontiac discussions if you need them or you can type pontiac in the browse by topic box in the left window.

I hope his Accord doesn't have the rattles and steering problems and transmission difficulties some have had

kdhspyder

Actually you have somewhat of a misconception of what the US economy is.

From the earliest part of our history we have always imported higher level products than we exported. There are a couple of reasons:
1) In the beginning we had more important things to worry about than exporting.. like staying alive;
2) In revolutionary war times there was no manufacturing in America.. everything was imported;
3) One of the key reasons behind the War Between the States was that the North ( manufacturing ) didn't want the South ( growing ) to export cotton to England;
4) By the late 1900's we were growing so fast westward everything went there;
5) In the early 20th Century our population was growing so fast they bought everything US manufacurers made;
6) WWI, Depression, WWII no business was done;
7) Post WWII this is the first time we even thought of exporting. The reason was that the rest of the world had been destroyed during WWII, we were the only ones that came through unscathed.

America is soooo incredibly wealthy in raw materials and foodstuffs that everyone wants our natural resources. We are only 2 generations removed from all of us being farmers. Coal, grain, beef, timber, and wood products have always been our main exports. Nothing has changed.

Since our inception we have always been the rich kid with all the money that all the stores wants to sell something to us.

We are not in sorry shape. Nothing has changed.

marine2

I agree with everything you say except the last sentence.

kdhspyder

Nothing has changed.. why are we in sorry shape. Our currency is devalued versus our main trading partners, except Canada, so highlevel, high tech imports are effectively kept out so that our entrepreneurs can develop without a lot of competition. Only low tech junk that no one cares a lot about, like socks, is really imported.

Now oil is a real problem and is the basis for most of our negative balance of trade. In addition to giving money to those who dislike us the most in the world our entire way of life is in the hands of some Princes, ayatollahs, friends in Iraq and Venezuela. Do enjoy funding the plans and dreams of the leaders in these countries?

Forget this little squabbling about auto's made in the western world. Have some goofball pull the plug on oil and none of us has the right to drive anylonger. Our entire 'right to drive' is in the hands of maybe 10 people in the world.

clethro

>Now oil is a real problem and is the basis for most of our negative balance of trade. In addition to giving money to those who dislike us the most in the world our entire way of life is in the hands of some Princes, ayatollahs, friends in Iraq and Venezuela. Do enjoy funding the plans and dreams of the leaders in these countries?

>Forget this little squabbling about auto's made in the western world. Have some goofball pull the plug on oil and none of us has the right to drive anylonger. Our entire 'right to drive' is in the hands of maybe 10 people in the world.

I wonder how many Americans are aware of what happened Friday in Saudi Arabia? Suicide car bombers tried to attack the Abqaiq oil facility. Two thirds of Saudi Arabian oil production is reported to pass through this facility. On Friday, three cars (CNN reported three, the BBC reported "at least two") penetrated the facility's first security perimeter. Security forces opened fire on the cars, causing two of them to explode. All three cars were stopped before they could penetrate the second security perimeter. All of the attackers were reported killed as were three members of the security force (the BBC reported two security forces killed.) I have no doubt that the three cars would have split up, had they been able to get into the main part of the plant, and dispersed in order to do maximum damage to the plant. The BBC article included this statement: "Oil security analysts have estimated that a serious attack on the facility could halve Saudi exports for up to a year."

If this attack had succeeded, what would have happened to our prices at the pump? $3 a gallon? Maybe $4 a gallon?

We are addicted to oil. Our economy is highly dependent on oil. We got lucky Friday. Next time...?

bmk32

socala4 writes "Ironically, the company with the greatest market share in China and one of its largest automakers is General Motors. I really don't like the idea of buying a GM product knowing that it will be using those dollars to become further invested in China. Odd that spending your money on Detroit iron is one of your best ways to help a communist country"

So does this mean it's perfectly O.K. to buy a Toyota, Honda, Mercedes or BMW, all of which market cars in China, and will be doing even more so as fast as they can (as China will be the #1 automotive market in the world very soon), and that spending your money on these products in some way does not influence their own company's investment and sales in China, which is, as you said, a Communist country ?

Is GM not supposed to be Global company ? Or is that solely the right of Toyota, Honda and the others ?

GM's success in China is evidence of their ability to be a global player in all parts of the world, except in Japan of course, they are afraid of competition in Japan, and keep the home market full of barrier's for foreign entry and investment there. Some Democracy, huh ?

You have no credibility when you declare GM's global activity as somehow bad because those dollars spent on GM product here at home may be invested in a Communist nation, while Toyota, Honda, Nissan, BMW, Mercedes, DCX, Ford etc. are all rushing to do the very same thing ?. Given your editorial, one can assume it's not good to buy from any automaker who sells their product in China ? We should all start walking..but I can see the reply coming that somehow there is justification for Toyota, Honda, etc. to invest and market product in China with little or no consequence of your dollars spent on those products here in the U.S. ending up being invested in China ? So go ahead, I'm listening.....

gtee

You need to reread what I said about Dodge and their moving their minivan to Missouri, from Canada and I did point out that their profits go back to Germany. Although about 23% of Chrysler is still owned by Americans. So Germany doesn't get it all

They are moving the production to Missouri, thats in the future. Now the production is in Canada. The van you purchased was made in Canada. The other thing is the part about 23% American ownership. Since Daimler is incorporated in German the dividends on shares is subject to German income tax. I used to own shares in Chrysler and latter in Daimler-Chrysler. Since the merger of "Unequals" the dividends on shares were subject to German income tax. This means that for every dollar in dividends, you paid 30% in German income tax. So yes 23% of shares are owned by Americans, but 100% of income tax is paid in Germany. How is that for buying American....

gtee

The Cavalier Z24 lies well behind the leading edge of technology yet cannot claim the mitigating circumstance of low price," wrote Car and Driver about the '88 coupe. Each of these cars moves at the behest of a modern double-overhead-cam, 16-valve four-cylinder engine, while the Z24 draws on a pushrod V6.,

There is a very good article here on Edmunds about the evolution of GM's small cars. I really like the quote made about the 1988 Chevy Cavalier. Its funny how exactly the same thing can be said about current GM cars such as Malibu and Grand Prix and G6 and well just about all of them really. I guess some things just cannot be changed by GM in 20 years. Its just too complicated for a company like GM to come up with a modern car....

socala4

Given your editorial, one can assume it's not good to buy from any automaker who sells their product in China ?

I don't like the idea of buying products made in China, or dealing with companies invested in China. Doesn't really matter who they are.

The difference is that Toyota doesn't wrap itself in the American flag, while GM exploits this red, white and blue impulse among some of you. I can't blame GM for taking advantage of you, I'm just surprised that you are so willing to let it happen.

I've already said it -- GM, Toyota, etc. are multinational companies, they belong to no country and fly no particular flag. Toyota is adding plants in North America, while GM is reducing US production.

In terms of the US economy, I really don't care who's hiring the people, paying the taxes and buying the parts, just so long as somebody does it. It's simply hypocritical to support GM's outsourcing, yet act as if the walls are coming down when Honda gives an American a job.

manegi

Guys

As a Japanese who studied in London and has worked in the US (and thus reasonably qualified to comment on the political aspects of international trade), let me also weigh in with my opinions – Actually strange as it may sound, Japanese Government wants to increase imports from the US, so that the politically sensitive trade deficit is kept in check. But Japan already imports all its military hardware from US (it is the third biggest spender in the world on this, for an almost non-existent “army”), is one of the big purchasers of US semiconductors and Aircrafts – And yet the deficit remains. So what is to be done? As one politician here said “There is only so much orange juice that we can drink”.
So I look at my big ticket purchases ;
1. House – cannot buy from the US
2. Car – Hmm. No US model attractive (for my use)
3. Flat Panel TV – Cannot find a US manufacturer
4. White goods – Japanese products very competitive, no benefit of buying US ones (also Whirlpool probably assembles in China). Can’t buy the huge Sub Zero equipment and fit in my Tokyo Apartment.
5. PC – Dell, but made in China

So exporting agricultural products is not going to cover the trade deficit, however rich US might be in terms of natural resources.
And one of the reasons US beef has lost market share to Australia is poor quality control – Witness the recent incident, the first shipment after the ban was lifted, and US farmers promptly shipped goods which failed testing (and were not properly tested before shipment).

rockylee

Great post bmk32 !!!!!

I've always said it would be easier for me to support Honda and Toyota if they wern't so anti-union. If they had Unions and/or paid there workers the benefits of the Big 3 I wouldn't knock them so hard. I owned a Acura TL and loved the car very much. I have a few pics of it on
carspace.com

However it's not any nicer than a Buick Lucerne as far as fit and finish, etc. goes. The biggest diference right now is that Acura and Lexus just offers more features. i.e Voice Recognition, DVD-Audio, etc. Now the Acura TL is more of a drivers car than the Lucerne, but that's not what the Lucerne is all out is it. My dream would be that GM and Honda merged to become a superpower. Honda probably builds one of the best, if not the best engine(s) in the world right now. The Acura TL, is probably the best all around car money can buy. The RL is probably also the best full-size car money can buy. I read in a earlier post someone saying the RL isn't Full-Size as the Lucerne :confuse: "say what ?"

The bottom line is GM can't afford to dissapoint us again with the G8 and the next CTS. These 2 models will either make or break GM in my opinion.
(big picture of company direction) Both are big time image cars, and are cars that "drivers" would be interested in as alternatives to BMW's, Acura's, Lexus's etc. if they are good enough. If they just slap a big engine in them and call it good enough, and do little to enhance the Technology(Gadgets) and interior ergonomics, then I will be devistated because that will signal an end to a once great company ran by decent people with a vision a very long time ago. :sick: I really hope they don't let us down this time, because it's probably their last chance at restructuring. The odds->(advantages of competition) are also definitley against them. We as GM loyalist, employees, UAW family and extended, and domestic car company fans will have our hands crossed in prayer for GM and the Big 3 to overcome such odds.

Rocky

P.S.

Union hate by some posters. So what ya'll are saying is that Toyota and Honda should be the "bar" for what a autowowrker gets paid ?????? Oh I forgot they (UAW) workers are overpaid for wanting more than mininum wage, when it takes a middle income wage to just to make it. :confuse: Seriously where do you want
them (like my father) to live in a trailer park, when working for the #1 automobile buisness in the world. ?? :confuse: ?? I make over $60K a yr. and don't have a mortgage payment. My gas bill was $409 to heat my home and $202 for my electric last month. :mad: I have no house, or car payment, and still find it tough to put enough aside to invest and save. It flat out costs alot of damn money to live today and if you think that GM is going to lower their car prices in the U.S. if they didn't pay middle income wages, then I got some swamp land in Florida I want to sell ya'll. I guess blame the unions is once again the topic in the blame game. :confuse:

rockylee

If GM continues to outsource electronics, and other components to communist China, like I just read in an Edmonds story.... :mad: .......Acura might see my money once again !!!!!!!!!!!! I'm getting really p!$$ed-off that my future GM product will have China made electronics that are destined to fail. I could barely handle them being built in china, for china. Now we GM loyalist are going to get another walley world grade component ????? I'm about to go over the edge folks. :sick: More outsoucing of Michigan and U.S. jobs

Rocky

rockylee

I will tell you this manegi, as a proud american I will by Japanese all day long before I buy a domestic or foreign nameplate built w/ major content in Red China. :mad:

MY GAWD I'M ABOUT TO BLOW A FUSE OVER GM BUYING ELECTRONICS MADE IN CHINA !!!!! Is this the first step before we start seeing imported "china made" Buicks and Caddy's ????

Rocky

rockylee

socala4,

Hey Mr. Japanese AUTO Expert. :P Tell me this. When is the Acura TL Type-S going to be made ??????

BTW- I really like the new RDX. How much is that going to cost ????? I like the new first ever Honda Turbo. Perhaps they need to TURBO the 3.2 in the TL and make a Type-S out of it. Lets say 330 hp. should be sufficient enough to easily smoke a IS 350 :surprise: I'd also like to see a higher reving engine like the Civic. I'd love to hear a VTEC 3.2 or new engine at 8,000-10,000 rpms. The Civic redlines at 8500 ????? I say slap a couple of Turbocharges on that Civic engine and Bam !!!!! a Type-S TL I'd have to be seriously chained up to not buy one !

Rocky

rockylee

Why hasn't Honda/Acura gone to a 6-speed automatic unit ???? I of course want a manual and was one of the reasons I baught the TL over the RL. I loved the RL, but wanted more power. It's still a nice car and perhaps the best full-size luxury car for the money on the market. About the only thing Acura lacks is Air Conditioned seats and they SHOULD be imlemented ASAP. My only other small gripe was the ELS system that didn't allow me to play DVD-Video Music CD's. The RL's Bose system does. BTW- is the RL also made in the states ????

Rocky

kdhspyder

I mentioned it 200 or 300 posts ago but IMO the decision has already been made at GM to move most of it's operations offshore, especially to China. Legally it cannot just walk away from the UAW but it can starve it to death by not using UAW labor to make anything.

From a cold business perspective this is one point where Wagoner gets very high marks. In the same way that a laid off worker can up and move from MI to TN or AL or TX, Wagoner has up and moved his company out of the US. When analysts look back they'll see it began in the early 2000's but really kicked in after the 2007 union discussions.

BTW the UAW directors are not morons. I am certain that they and their advisors know exactly what is going on. Heck they might even have been advised about it, but it may have taken the form of...
GM: 'Here's reality, UAW, we cant make smaller autos here due to our costs. We can make profitable auto's overseas so we are planning to direct all of our new investment there.'
UAW: 'Are you going to close any plants here?'
GM: 'There are no plans to do so but it's the market which will tell us what to do.' ( see mini vans / TrailBlazers )
UAW: 'What about the current Job's Bank and legacy benefits'
GM: 'What about them?'
UAW: 'You've got a contract that you have to honor.'
GM 'We will, btw would you like to make an effort to keep some jobs here by reopening the contract earlier so that we can convert some existing plants to be more cost effective in order to compete directly with Toyota and Honda?'
UAW: 'You mean convert a union shop to a nonunion shop?? Are you nuts? The rank and file will lynch us.'
GM: 'OK,... Just a question.'

rockylee

kdhspyder,

Saying GM can't make an affordable small car here in the U.S. is ludacris.

Do you know the figures on what it costs GM to build a G6. Approx $8-10K with labor & legacy included per unit.
A Chevy Silverado is approx. $12-14K
(depends on trim levels) Escalades, STS, are about $18K

BTW-My father told me a $900-1500 (depends on vehicle) cost of UAW labor, which includes legacy costs avg per unit. This $2K-$3K figures we see on this forum, and paper he says is propaganda that's not true.

Rocky

rockylee

I mentioned it 200 or 300 posts ago but IMO the decision has already been made at GM to move most of it's operations offshore, especially to China. Legally it cannot just walk away from the UAW but it can starve it to death by not using UAW labor to make anything.

From a cold business perspective this is one point where Wagoner gets very high marks. In the same way that a laid off worker can up and move from MI to TN or AL or TX, Wagoner has up and moved his company out of the US. When analysts look back they'll see it began in the early 2000's but really kicked in after the 2007 union discussions.

I guess if it does get shipped to China then alot of folks will have no loyalty to GM because most of us will refuse to buy Chinese made GM products. I will for one have no problem driving another Acura if this gets played out. Yes kdhspyder, the writing is on the wall. :sick:

I've said my Acura TL was the best car I ever owned. I will be a spokesmouth for Honda/Acura :surprise: before I will settle for a Chinese GM import. :mad: !!!!!

Rocky

lemko

Well, if it comes to this, you better believe my next car will be an Avalon or a Lexus LS. Driving a Japanese car is the lesser of two evils. Too many products with once-proud American labels have "Made in China" stamped on them. If GM ships all its production to China, they might as well just close all their dealerships and sell their vehicles at Sam's Club.

dieselone

Rock,

I can't believe your numbers. If the numbers you posted are accurate, GM shouldn't have lost $8 billion last year, they should have made $10+ billion.

BTW-My father told me a $900-1500 (depends on vehicle) cost of UAW labor, which includes legacy costs avg per unit. This $2K-$3K figures we see on this forum, and paper he says is propaganda that's not true.

So, Toy/honda must build their cars without any labor costs to have a $1500 per car advantage vs. GM.

I'm begining to think the UAW is just as clueless as GMs management.

marine2

manegi, much of what you said is true. There is not much of anything we make here that Japan can't make as good, better and cheaper. But there are things that they can do to help.

As I understand, Japan is the biggest importer of lumber from the U.S. Still we have to ship it over as logs, as Japan will not allow us to cut them into sheets or 2X4's.

Japan heavily subsidizes their farmers thus makes it hard for us to sell a lot more produce there that we could sell.

We had one case of mad cow desease and Japan almost froze us out of the beef market.

It's hard enough to sell things in Japan anyway, as the people are so loyal to their companies. Buying Japanese products over foreign, even when many times the foreign product is just as good and cheaper.

Then I hear property is so high there, putting up a foreign auto factory or dealership can be very expensive.

rorr

"I guess if it does get shipped to China then alot of folks will have no loyalty to GM because most of us will refuse to buy Chinese made GM products. I will for one have no problem driving another Acura if this gets played out."

What about Ford?

Are you pro-domestic or JUST pro-GM? I'm having a hard time keeping it straight......

rorr

"As I understand, Japan is the biggest importer of lumber from the U.S. Still we have to ship it over as logs, as Japan will not allow us to cut them into sheets or 2X4's."

Well, THAT doesn't make a lot of sense to me. It would be much more efficient to ship it already processed. I've heard that for very very special applications (wood used in religious buildings for example) that they prefer to process the lumber in Japan. I wasn't aware that this was true for the entire industry however.

"Japan heavily subsidizes their farmers thus makes it hard for us to sell a lot more produce there that we could sell. "

As valuable as property is in Japan, if their farm industry was NOT heavily subsidized, it would probably simply disappear. The may feel that the ability to feed at least a PORTION of their people with home-grown food is a benefit and don't want to be 100% reliant on imports for such an important commodity.

"We had one case of mad cow desease and Japan almost froze us out of the beef market."

Yes. And when Canada had a single case of mad cow disease, we imposed a moratorium on Canadian beef until they could proved that they had their situation under control. This is simply a health issue.

"It's hard enough to sell things in Japan anyway, as the people are so loyal to their companies. Buying Japanese products over foreign, even when many times the foreign product is just as good and cheaper."

Hmmmm......apparently it's OK to be a loyalist in America, buying American products over foreign, even when many times the foreign product is just as good and cheaper.....but you find fault with the general Japanese population for doing the same?

"Then I hear property is so high there, putting up a foreign auto factory or dealership can be very expensive."

Yes, property is expensive in Japan. But if the domestic automakers made product which was actually DESIREABLE to the general Japanese population, I'm sure that some means could be found to sell it.

btw - WELCOME TO THE FORUM

rockylee

I can't believe your numbers. If the numbers you posted are accurate, GM shouldn't have lost $8 billion last year, they should have made $10+ billion.

They shouldn't have lost money is correct. However they did because of dropping hundreds of millions into individual plants both foreign and domestic, the biggest overhead perhaps in the world "white collar", Huge losses in market share, Employee pricing=less profit, Poor SUV, and Truck sales, etc etc etc have contributed to those costs=Billions lost. Just a few years ago with virtually the same amount of people they made over a $2 billion dollars in profit. Explain that one to me ?????? GM hasn't hired anyone since, and has had a high retirement rate.

So, Toy/honda must build their cars without any labor costs to have a $1500 per car advantage vs. GM.

I'm begining to think the UAW is just as clueless as GMs management.

I can't speak for the total cost of labor for Toyota and Honda. I will assume it's under $1000 here in the U.S.
In Japan where their is unions, it might be higher which should be factored in ????

However the $1500+ advantage your talking about is significantly higher but doesn't stem from just labor. We talked about them over and over again and I don't want to kick a dead horse again. My grandmother a former IUE rep. said that back when she was representing Union members at GM plants said it(labor costs) was about the same then as today because of new machinery, methods, workers doing more than one job. Also the plants downsizing from about 1600-3000 people to about 800-1500 also has faught off labor costs. It makes perfect sense to me. Perhaps I'm dumb and wrong for believing
the "evil union" and my grandmother and father ? :surprise:

Rocky