Buying American Cars What Does It Mean?

andres3

I'm not sure where you get your information or how you derive your opinions, but Consumer Reports rates the most recent (and last year 2005 Neon) a 27 out of 100.
Thats horrible! Everyone that is claiming good reliability on their American vehicles is claiming so with less than 150K miles. Most long term Honda and Toyota owners get to 200 or 250 K miles w/o much difficulty or cost other than regular maintenance.
Look at reliability ratings from reliable sources like Consumer reports, its night and day between American & Japanese brands. The stats cannot lie.

andres3

I may have gone a little over the top, but I still stand by my statement. The cars still made in Japan (and assembled over there) are clearly and quickly discernable as built to a higher quality standard. Its build quality, its fit and finish, its quality control, its pride in wormanship. Those old guys in Japan have been building cars their whole careers. Theyve perfected the art.

I'm not a USA basher by any means. I like America, and we do make some quality products. However, Americans are not the best, or even good at everything. We can't compete on the highest level in soccer, and we can't compete in making, building, or designing automobiles. We are the best at making bombs, missiles, and winning at basketball.

manegi

Here is a response from Japan.
Actually Japanese manufacturers admit that the output of the US workers has improved very significantly in recent years (of course, they are referring to their plants in the US, but this cannot be just an isolated experience). In the early 90s, TV here would show goofy US assembly line workers (OK, so the media does overhype), but that had disappeared by 2000, replaced by how narrow the gap between the productivity of US plants and Japanese plants (again, just looking at Japanese manufacturers) was.
But here is the new theme - Assembly is just one part of the process, and the major differentiator now seems to be the relationship with the component suppliers. In Japan the relationships run so deep that they actually go to the other extreme and affect competitiveness (one of the first steps Gohn took in his Nissan turn around was slash these relationships), but in the US the US manufacturers have probably taken it to the other extreme (just give us the lowest price, and who cares about your long term survival).
So Japanese manufacturers are still able to provide better value, since they work closely with all the components of the value chain, while US manufacturers have probably let short term cost cutting get out of hand.

Having said this, there is no reason to believe that US manufacturers will not fix this issue in the near future.

And lastly, in 2000 I bought a reverse imported Acura TL (Honda Inspire in Japan, but imported from the US) which proudly flaunted the badge of Honda America. I used it for three years, and there was absolutely no difference in quality as compared to a Japan made Honda.

manegi

Are there any foreign automaker plants in Japan, like VW, etc?

No, for the simple reason that labor and other input costs (land, power etc) in Japan are usually higher than other countries. So cheaper to actually import rather than assemble here.

Contrary to the popular belief (on this board), Japan does not penalise imports (they gave that up in late 80s). However, it does penalise car ownership (so higher taxes etc resulting in higher car prices), and penalises the larger engine capacities even more (higher taxes above certain engine capacities). But this applies to all manufacturers, and not just the imports (I believe this is because the governement wants to force people to use public transportation).

The reason imports are more expensive is because a) Cost of maintaining the dealership network (Japanese consumers are very service sensitive, and demand a lot of hand holding) - This cost has to be spread over a much smaller volume as compared to the domestic manufacturers; b) Imports target high value low volume market which is less price sensitive (no point in trying to compete with Camry or Civi on its home ground, and there is a huge below 700cc market segment which imports do not target), so if the customer is willing to pay, why not?.

US manufacturers, unfortunately, do not have a very competitive line up in the high-end market. Other than SUVs (one of my neighbours recently became a proud owner of a yellow Hummer)

By the way, an interesting example of how the low-price sensitivity works at the high end. Toyota's introduction of the Lexus brand (here in Japan) last year met with yawns, the general reaction being "For goddsake, it is the same Toyota!". But they have since then built very upscale Lexus outlets (totally a different class from the Toyota outlet), and RAISED PRICES by 10-15% for the SAME cars! Results? Sales up 4x!!

socala4

And some don't think we can make parts for automobiles and assemble them good enough?

Several of us have been in agreement that Americans can build fine cars. However, those Americans seem to be working for Toyota and Honda.

It's a bit surprising that despite all of the deficiencies and lack of customer focus evidenced by many of these Big 2.5 cars that there is no sense of shame or embarrassment, no craving to simply do better. If you run a race and come in last, you generally try to run a better race, rather than blame your competitor for having the audacity to outperform you.

rockylee

Several of us have been in agreement that Americans can build fine cars. However, those Americans seem to be working for Toyota and Honda.

Those americans working for GM, Ford, have shown they can build a fine car when their boss's let em'
"The key is letting them"

I would think you'd agree ?

Rocky

rockylee

The Mazda Rotary @ 9000 ?????

The Civic is a 8500 redline, right ?

Rocky

imidazol97

>Never a brake replacement!, and some gaskets at 150K+.

So you're saying Toyotas go 150K mi and up without replacing front brakes??? or rear brakes (Hondas wear them first sometimes at 15K)

Just what gaskets were those?

I have not have a transmission failure in my cars since 1980. I can't recall having to replace a hose on any of them. Hose quality really improved at least in Olds and Buicks. Had one early belt replacement on a silly OHC miracle motor that some say are the only ones worth buying instead of "outdated" OHV motors.

1980 Cutlass
1981 Skylark
1985 Skyhawk
1987 Century
1989 Century
1993 LeSabre
1998 LeSabre
2003 LeSabre

So much for anecdotal car reports.

bmk32

"Several of us have been in agreement that Americans can build fine cars. However, those Americans seem to be working for Toyota and Honda"

Not true socala4, couldn't be farther from the truth, and is just your opinion or perception. As an American who has worked for all 3 of what is now the Big 2.5, and for 1 of the transplants, I can assure you the sense of pride and desire to build the very best product's was evident equally across the board.

Folks working at the Big 2.5 are just as demanding on quality as any other American consumer, and it's the main focus in their daily worklives, whether they work in Engineering, Sales, Administration, or sweep the floors, their is a real desire to succeed and build best in class product's for all of us. The names and faces at all of these company's are multi-national too, and to a person, they all take pride in what they do !

For me personally, this whole game has spilled over into my personal life as well, and my eye's are wide open to the poor quality of service and product we get on a daily basis in all other areas of consumer services and products, from visit's to the Doctor/Dentist to retail shopping and everything in between, there's work to be done as well. People need to look inside to whatever business you're in, I bet there is a huge margin for improvement there as well. As a consumer, I know there is based upon the products and services I buy from all of you.

bumpy

The highest rpm on a mainstream internal combustion engine (excluding stuff like turbines and electric cars), yes. The original S2000 also hit 9k before it was stroked out to a 2.2L. The 2006 Civic Si only goes up to 8k, which is still pretty spiffy.

claydog

It all boils down to economics,emerging educated cultures and politics. Of course cheaper and decent quality products will sell. Of course the manufacturing will gravitate to the lowest cost supplier regardless of location or culture. Of course the nations profiting will demand higher and higher quality regardless of the cost and leverage their advantages. Of course economic considerations play a part in international politics. A recent 20/20 show with John Stocil tried to prove this is all good. I dont think its all good. I wish we were as willing to be fair as possible politically to American workers as we are in promoting unfair "free" trade.

captain2

back in the 80's had the opportunity to spend a lot of time in Korea, working in an advisory capacity. What I found back then was a country that technogically was in the 60's. That said, what I also found was a group of people that had a super work ethic and some sort of patriotic feeling that each and every one of them somehow owed hundred hour work weeks to their country. The Hyundai Excel, at that time, a really crappy little car.
Now, fast forward 20 years - no longer technologically challenged and with the same work ethic, Hyundai is now producing cars superior to what is made by the Big 2.5.
Funny how this works. Next up to the plate: China.

black_tulip

Several of us have been in agreement that Americans can build fine cars.

Absolutely. Just an anecdotal piece-my Kentucky built Camry had far better workmanship and assembly quality than my two Japanese built Integras.

claydog

The best car I ever owned was a 1982 Chevy Celebrity with a 4 banger . Great car for 200,000 mi and then some. Gave it to St. Vincent DePaul charity. They were tickled pink!

andre1969

but the other day coming into work I saw something amusing. As I came up to a traffic light there was a Dodge Dynasty and a Toyota Corolla SR-5...the cool looking little coupe with the hidden headlights, of the '88-92 generation. The Dynasty's reign also spanned those same years.

Well, looking at the Dynasty, the way the body panels fit together it was awful. Just looked sloppy and uneven. And the paint, a light metallic blue, was doing that peeling thing that the clearcoats were famous for at that time.

In contrast, the Corolla's paint was still shiny, but it was also a non-metallich white. Some oxidization though. The fit and finish was actually very good on it. Nice, tight, even gaps...I doubt if they really make them nowadays with much more precision. But it was rusting. Bad. And not only around the rear wheel well but also at the rocker panel!

And when the light turned green, good lord what an awful sound I heard! The Dynasty moved forward at a good clip, silent as could be, no smoke or fuss. Maybe it was one of those later 3.3 V-6'es and not the Mitsu 3.0? :P But the Corolla made some of the most horrible, tortured, straining sounds as it struggled to move forward...kinda like over-revving a garden tractor motor that's running low on oil. I ended up passing the Dynasty, and noted that it was rust free. Looked pretty good actually, except for that peeling paint.

Now, where am I going with this? Nowhere, really. Except maybe to point out that how a car is taken care of and treated over its lifespan is often more important than whose badge is on the grille. And that nice, tight panel gaps don't mean diddly squat if the sheetmetal's going to rust! But then, perhaps the Dynasty was garaged all of its life, while the Corolla was parked on the grass?

imidazol97

I heard a relatively new Corolla (05?) moving through a parking lot. The motor was banging like it was badly out of tune. Do they all do this?

I saw an element by honda at the local flavored coffee morning stop yesterday. I noticed those "exacting assembly tolerances" on the doors were WIDE. People mocked earlier car models an touted narrow gaps; the element ain't got them.

socala4

I heard a relatively new Corolla (05?) moving through a parking lot. The motor was banging like it was badly out of time. Do they all do this?

I saw an element by honda at the local flavored coffee morning stop yesterday. I noticed those "exacting assembly tolerances" on the doors were WIDE. People mocked earlier car models an touted narrow gaps; the element ain't got them.

I do enjoy this (futile but) persistent attempt to convince America that "Japanese" cars are awful, while GM cars are simply fantastic. Do you honestly believe that it's working?

rorr

"The motor was banging like it was badly out of time. Do they all do this?"

Yes. Each and every one. It is a trait of all OHC engines that they sound like John Deere tractors. And panel gaps on all new Japanese cars can vary as much as 1/2" from top to bottom. The reason that their owner's love them so much is that the Japanese use a specially treated plastic which outgasses a mind altering substance for the life of the car so that their owners never perceive any problems.

Now, if only GM would adopt the same strategy, all would be fine.....

imidazol97

Thank you for your serious answer. Have you heard a John Deere tractor?

socala4

"Several of us have been in agreement that Americans can build fine cars. However, those Americans seem to be working for Toyota and Honda"

Not true socala4, couldn't be farther from the truth, and is just your opinion or perception. As an American who has worked for all 3 of what is now the Big 2.5, and for 1 of the transplants, I can assure you the sense of pride and desire to build the very best product's was evident equally across the board.

Firstly, it's not just my perception, but the perception of millions of consumers. If I was the only one believing this, and there was nothing to substantiate it, there would be no discussion about a "quality gap", there would not be consistent surveys from JD Power, an organization paid by the auto industry for its survey results, indicating that there has been a quality gap, and the Big 2.5 (well, actually the Big 2) would not be experiencing declining market share. So obviously, I'm not just making it up. And the gap isn't just in quality, but also based upon features and intangibles -- the transplants are simply doing a better job of giving consumers what they want.

The irony is that these same companies actually do a pretty good job of sorting out what consumers in Europe and Australia want. I can only think that it is hubris, bureaucracy and a bloated sense of entitlement, as well as an excessive dependence of fleet sales, that got them to this position.

andre1969

is that I think the engine in my uncle's '03 Corolla sounds pretty nasty. And not just because it has 104,000 miles on it; it's ALWAYS sounded nasty to me! However, truth be told, MOST little 4-bangers sound bad to me. In my case, I think it's just because my ear is tuned to the sound of bigger engines. I don't really care for the way the Camry's 2.4 sounds, either, although I thought the Accord's 2.4 was a pleasant surprise.

I think with the sound of an engine, it might actually depend on what you're used to hearing, moreso than any actual sophistication. To use another example, I've heard the Intrepid's 2.7 get criticized for being harsh, thrashy, unsophisticated, etc. And it's a DOHC engine!! I don't have any problems with the way mine sounds, though. I still prefer the rumble of a Pontiac 350/400 though, or a Mopar 360 that happened to lose its muffler! :shades:

andre1969

depends on which model of JD you buy. The cheaper ones use a Briggs and Stratton motor, which is the tractor equivalent of a Chevy 3.4 or Ford Vulcan 3.0. Nicer models use a Kohler, which is more akin to a quality OHC car engine :P

lemko

...we can thank the eco-weenies for the crappy paint on that Dynasty. The Corolla SR-5 probably still had the decent solvent-based paint that could still be used in Japan where it was manufactured. Still, I think how well-maintained a car is has a lot more to do with longevity than whose nameplate is on it. A friend and I bought our Cadillac Broughams around the same time. Within four years, his looked like a junkyard wreck, while mine still looks and runs great to this day! The guy never washed his car and I doubt he bothered much with routine maintenance.

imidazol97

I was wondering if the author had really heard the John Deere sound for which the phrase was coined. The early ones were two cylinder motors with pistons about 8 inches in diameter and no muffler.

The Corolla had an erratic diesel-like sound. Others have the put-put of a 4-cylinder. Maybe this one was maintained by someone who believed the 10-K mile oil change in the manual for everyday driving!!!

claydog

Hubris is an interesting word. It is inflammatory in connotation. Based on ones perspective it can be a reaction to a supreme challenge mustered in the face of a mortal enemy . Perceived as arrogance, it is really a defensive instinct to compete. Even if the playing field is uphill and the rules are different for the other guys..

socala4

Even if the playing field is uphill and the rules are different for the other guys.

The constant reference to the "unlevel playing field" strikes me as being a bit misplaced.

You're right, the playing field was uneven. Companies such as GM had massive market share, large quantities of cash, significant customer loyalty, a well established distribution channel, an outstanding branding system, and a federal government willing to impose "voluntary quotas" on competitors, rather than quality standards.

And yet, despite all of these advantages, GM still managed to blow it. In a David-Goliath comparison, Toyota was David, while GM was the bumbling giant that assumed that it could not be toppled. I can only imagine what would have happened had GM been a smaller company and Toyota a larger one before this whole onslaught began.

xrunner2

I heard a relatively new Corolla (05?) moving through a parking lot. The motor was banging like it was badly out of tune. Do they all do this?

Could say nasty things about some American branded vehicles that I have test driven or used on rentals over last 2+ decades. Many were coarse sounding. Not refined.

Know you are a GM fan. It is easy to knock something observed at a distance. Wonder how many GM and American brand drivers have spent time driving cars with outstanding engines such as: Nissan VQ V6, Honda 4 or V6, Acura V6, BMW 6, etc.

claydog

The face of GM has change and is totally international. GM has values and principles and policies of fair and equal employment. They have a highly educated work force who earned what they have gained and are bullish on their handiwork and proud of their work place. The competition has cultural and political as well as economic advantages. GM is a great company ..not an ugly giant

xrunner2

Nicer models use a Kohler, which is more akin to a quality OHC car engine

Beyond that, for home and garden use, are Kawasaki 4-cyl water cooled engines. And then, diesel models still for home and garden (big). I guess that Kawasaki is a Japanese engine given the name. Wonder to what extent JD is doing things similar to GM. JD parts, just like auto parts at car dealers, are very expensive.

andre1969

that I don't really like the sound of is the Nissan 2.5 4-cyl. But at least it's pretty powerful and torquey, which makes up for the racket! And most of the racket I encountered with it was at idle and local stop and go-type driving. Out on the highway, it actually felt eerily quiet...kinda like that silence that fell across the cabin when Lynrd Skynrd's airplane ran out of fuel! :surprise:

After awhile though, I'd probably get used to the sound of whatever car I happened to be driving.

socala4

The face of GM has change and is totally international. GM has values and principles and policies of fair and equal employment. They have a highly educated work force who earned what they have gained and are bullish on their handiwork and proud of their work place. The competition has cultural and political as well as economic advantages. GM is a great company ..not an ugly giant

That may or may not be true, but if the car isn't as good, it really doesn't matter to the customer.

The definition of a "great company" is one that has a strong customer orientation by providing products that consumers want at a price that is reasonable to the customer and generates a profit for the shareholders.

GM hasn't done a very good job of that at all, at least in the US car market. The proof is in the declining market share -- the consumer has spoken, and it should be obvious what they are saying. I'd say that the US truck market is the next battle to be lost.

marine2

Still, I think how well-maintained a car is has a lot more to do with longevity than whose nameplate is on it. A friend and I bought our Cadillac Broughams around the same time. Within four years, his looked like a junkyard wreck, while mine still looks and runs great to this day! The guy never washed his car and I doubt he bothered much with routine maintenance.


I think this is very true. I also think, from the many posts I have read on these boards, that American car buyers are more apt to service their cars themselves rather than take it to a dealer. Some times they don't always do a good enough job of looking after things they should look after.

I also noticed with my brother in laws Toyota Camray, that he usually has more done to his car in routine maintance than the Dodge dealer does on the two vehicles I have owned. He has a high and low maintance that they do every so many miles. He can come out of there sometimes and owe the dealer $300.00-$500.00 when he brought it in for a 15,000 or 30,000 mile maintanance. I have yet to have to pay for that kind of service.

claydog

Guess you think WalMart is the greatest of all

andre1969

took his Corolla in for its 30/60/90K mile services, although he was a bit late...with him it was more like 42K/72k/104k. The last bill was for something like $825, although it included some brake work.

Now in its defense, the car has never had to go in for any unscheduled repairs, although now it does need catalytic convertor work.

socala4

Guess you think WalMart is the greatest of all

Is Walmart the default argument for everything around here?

I personally don't care much for Walmart and I don't shop there. But my opinions about it are not relevant to this discussion.

A better question is why some of you will defend GM to the hilt, even when what the company does is often an affront to the customer. If an accountant in Detroit with an eye for cost-cutting is given more credence than a consumer who has to commit large sums of his hard-earned money to buy transporation for his family, then it's no wonder that the company suffers. If GM main mission has so little to do with pleasing the customer and providing him with value for his money, then exactly what good is this company to the consumers of America?

mcintyre1

by the American Car blog

http://theamericanauto.blogspot.com/

and this column loves American cars

claydog

GM Core Values
Core values are what our Company stands for, and are shared by everyone throughout the organization.


Customer Enthusiasm
We will dedicate ourselves to products and services that create enthusiastic customers. No one will be second guessed for doing the right thing for the customer.

Integrity
We will stand for honesty and trust in everything we do. We will say what we believe and do what we say.

Teamwork
We will win by thinking and acting together as one General Motors team, focused on global leadership. Our strengths are our highly skilled people and our diversity.


Innovation
We will challenge conventional thinking, explore new technology and implement new ideas regardless of their source faster than our competition.

Continuous Improvement
We will set ambitious goals, stretch to meet them, and then "raise the bar" again and again. We believe that everything can be done better, faster and more effectively in a learning environment.

Individual Respect and Responsibility
We will respect others and act responsibly, so that we can work together to meet our common goals.

bmk32

"Firstly, it's not just my perception, but the perception of millions of consumers. If I was the only one believing this, and there was nothing to substantiate it, there would be no discussion about a "quality gap", there would not be consistent surveys from JD Power, an organization paid by the auto industry for its survey results, indicating that there has been a quality gap, and the Big 2.5 (well, actually the Big 2) would not be experiencing declining market share. So obviously, I'm not just making it up. And the gap isn't just in quality, but also based upon features and intangibles -- the transplants are simply doing a better job of giving consumers what they want."

Well, I'll respectfully disagree. You are telling this forum that you, and millions of other consumers, know that American autoworkers (at the traditional domestics) have no pride or desire to succeed ? And you have this "perception" sunstantiated by the "quality gap" ? You need to visit GM, Ford or DCX and find out what these people really think and feel, as you're way off base.

Talking about the quality gap is fast becoming a waste of time, and the evidence is in JD Powers, Consumer Reports, all of the daily/weekly/monthly auto publications, edmunds, etc. Even Toyota has acknowledged the increased competitiveness and improvement of the U.S. domestic brands. That's good for the consumer, as it encourages even mighty Toyota to keep raising the bar.

"Quailty gap" seems to be a subject that the Big 2.5 'dooms-dayers' just can't let go, they refuse to acknowledge the huge improvemnents in product quality that GM, Ford and DCX have all accomplished. I sense these folks are afraid of just what the Big 2.5 may be able to do.....which is compete head to head with any automaker in the world ! To some, by reading the negative comments in their posts, that would just be a catastrophe, I have no idea why ?

Not sure what "features and intangibles" you are specifically referencing ?? Quality of materials is vastly different in all makes (U.S., Asian or German) than where it was even 5 years ago, and more recently, the Big 2.5 have made tremendous improvements to be more competitive on the quality of interior materials in particular. If the new Honda Civic is any example, that interior design is just plain funky, the 3 tier dash is pitiful. And the Honda Ridgeline, with the spare tire mounted right in the much ballywho'd trunk, c'mon, I don't call that a credible "feature or intangible", I call that an major inconvenience when a customer gets a flat tire out on the highway with the bed and trunk fully loaded for a family vacation.......what's the purpose of putting a trunk in the bed if you're just gonna mount the spare tire in it ?? Is that really what consumer's want ??

Declining market share in North America is a fact, but why is everyone focused on just North America ? This is a Global industry, and the Big 2.5 aren't doing too bad on a global basis, GM global sales were actually up 2% in 2005.

Past domestic quality & dependability issues acknowledged, there are what ?, 10 major automotive players in the U.S. today -v- 4 major players just 30 years ago, what do folks really think is gonna happen to market share with 6 additional choices in the mix and all that product to choose from ? Ultimately though, all of that choice is good for the consumer, right ? Because we get better product from competition.

It is painful to experience the restructuring of what had been the traditional domestic auto industry, AMC is r.i.p., Chrysler is now part of DCX, Ford and GM have to shrink in order to right size themselves to the current state of the domestic auto market, it's all a fact, no new news there.

I don't think the transplants are doing a better job than the traditional domestics, but thay have been an enabler for change that will benefit us all. We should welcome the competition, but I'll never stop rooting for the home Team's.

Try a GM, Ford or DCX product today, and ya might just find that you like it.

xrunner2

GM is a great company ..not an ugly giant

Doesn't a great company lead? Seems that leadership in auto design and manufacturing has been Honda and Toyota over last 2-3 decades.

Why does a great company make Azteks, bland GTOs and Malibus, overpriced tiny-market non-functional vehicles like SSR, cartoon-like Monte Carlo, etc.? Why was GM lagging other manufacturers in designing vehicles with good crash protection such as prev gen Blazer? Could go on and on with questions.

socala4

"Quailty gap" seems to be a subject that the Big 2.5 'dooms-dayers' just can't let go, they refuse to acknowledge the huge improvemnents in product quality that GM, Ford and DCX have all accomplished.

It seems to me that most of the posters on this thread have acknowledged that Big 2.5 has improved, and that some cars are even well-built.

But the fact that the gap has "narrowed" implies that a gap still exists, it is simply not as wide as it once was. And if I'm in the market for a 2006 car, I really don't care whether the current model is better than the one sold twenty years ago -- I'm going to compare it to other 2006 models being sold today. What matters is how the car compares to its competitors, not how much progress it has made from the bottom.

Declining market share in North America is a fact, but why is everyone focused on just North America ?

I'm the one who pointed out that GM is China's favorite brand, and that GM is profitable outside of North America.

But most of us on this forum live in North America, and our GM choices are limited to cars that are sold in North America. Perhaps if we could buy Astras instead of Cobalts, then the perception would be different.

I don't think the transplants are doing a better job than the traditional domestics

Except to the extent that we can affect one or two purchase decisions as consumers, it really doesn't matter what you or I think.

The consumer has spoken, and no business can prosper if the customer isn't given what he wants. If GM is out of step with the US consumer (and given the falling market share, it clearly is), then the US consumer will respond by spending his money elsewhere. To anyone in business, this shouldn't be a surprise.

perna

"And some don't think we can make parts for automobiles and assemble them good enough?"

Maybe the people who think that have their reasons.

For example, we bought a Ford Taurus in 1987 and it was by far the worst car we have ever owned. For that reason, we will never buy a Ford product again.

A friend of mine bought a Chrysler and then had to sue them because the car had many problems and Chrysler would not fix them.

On the other hand, our family has owned 8 Hondas and they have all been very good to excellent. Guess what kind of car we will buy next?

You missed the point. He was talking about the other guy's assertion that just because a group of American-born people assemble a car, it is going to be a piece of junk.

It has nothing to do with American craftsmanship. If you bought a couple junky American cars, it might have been a bum part from a supplier or an under-engineered part. Any make or model of car can have those problems.

The first time one of your Hondas eats a transmission at 30k, then what? Are you going to paint all Japanese cars as junk, just like you did from your Taurus experience? You're going to run out of countries to boycott!

xrunner2

And the Honda Ridgeline, with the spare tire mounted right in the much ballywho'd trunk, c'mon, I don't call that a credible "feature or intangible", I call that an major inconvenience when a customer gets a flat tire out on the highway with the bed and trunk fully loaded for a family vacation.......

Really nit-picking. It is a great idea. If you do get a flat, it is easier and cleaner to get it from the Ridgeline compartment rather than if it is mounted underneath where it gets very dirty. But, getting a flat tire is not an every day thing. I can think of vehicles that wife and I had that we never had a flat, including a Suburban owned for 14 years. Ridgeline has IRS, so maybe there was a space reason for putting it in compartment. Have driven Ridgeline and came away impressed. Honda did "borrow" and use idea of tailgate opening sideways and as usual from American full-size wagons of years ago - think that it was GM.

Civic and Ridgeline won car and truck of the year award recently.

socala4

Customer Enthusiasm
We will dedicate ourselves to products and services that create enthusiastic customers. No one will be second guessed for doing the right thing for the customer.

That obviously came from GM's PR department, alongside the generic ubiquitous "mission statements" that no one but for the consultants embrace. Try driving one of the rental cars that comprise about 30% of GM's sales, and then see how credible that statement seems to be.

perna

So you're saying Toyotas go 150K mi and up without replacing front brakes??? or rear brakes (Hondas wear them first sometimes at 15K)

Just what gaskets were those?

Actually, I remember in the mid-90s there was a HUGE deal about Kevlar brake pads that would last the entire lifetime of a car. Not sure what happened to them, I don't think they ever made it to market.

andre1969

This is sad, but people have been griping about the location of the spare tire probably since the dawn of time. Supposedly back in the 50's there was a big argument about whether to stow the tire upright off to the side of the trunk, which made it very accessible but also took up a lot of room, or laid flat, where it was harder to get to if the trunk was full.

I'm sure that no matter where the tire gets put, it's going to be in a bad position for some situations. For instance, I liked having the spare tire under the trunk floor of my Intrepid, where it's out of the way, but it's a pain to get to when the trunk has stuff in it. And I've actually had to use my spare a few times! IIRC, I got my first flat when the car only had around 8,000 miles! :surprise:

I HOPE I never get a flat tire with my '85 Silverado. The spare tire is underneath, while part of the jack is behind the seat, and yet another part is in the engine compartment! :confuse:

andre1969

my uncle's '03 Corolla just had its front pads replaced for the first time at 104,000 miles. The rear brakes, which are drums I believe, are still original. He does a lot of highway driving though.

I had a supervisor who had a '92 Civic with a stick shift, who did mostly highway driving. Front pads lasted to around 150,000 miles, and it still had the original shoes on the back when he unloaded the think around the 175,000 mile mark. The car itself was crap by then, but as it got older he just quit taking care of it and let maintenance issues lapse.

claydog

Got a reality check for you Socala4. Everyone I met at GM believed in this principal. That is a fact. I spent 25 years at the Warren Tech Center. GM pride is alive and well.
Customer Enthusiasm
We will dedicate ourselves to products and services that create enthusiastic customers. No one will be second guessed for doing the right thing for the customer

xrunner2

GM Core Values

Those are all nice. Did/does GM have suitable strategies, associated prescribed and measurable actions, metrics, etc. tied to these and reaching down and across to all orgs and all employees and regularly reviewed and updated by high management? How long has GM been benchmarking best-in-class companies in US/world, vehicle and other? (This meaning beyond reverse engineering/rip down of competitor vehicles.)

lemko

Subaru had a very interesting place for the spare tire - under the hood with the engine!

claydog

Finally someone asks a positive question. GM has measurable evaluation systems for everything. They benchmark world class and best in class. It is amazing just how well structered GM is in every regard. Its a GREAT company !