Buying American Cars What Does It Mean?

bumpy

They weren't the only ones:

andre1969

Yeah, but the Corvair is different...spare tire's at the correct end of the car, but the ENGINE isn't! :P

nvbanker

>GM has measurable evaluation systems for everything. They benchmark world class and best in class. It is amazing just how well structered GM is in every regard. Its a GREAT company !

Not surprised. Great companies though, are not always good at making good product, they're good at being a great company. Used to work for one when I was younger. We were an awesome bank, and very good at being an awesome bank - unfortunately, our customers often disagreed. We knew that, but knew not how to fix it, but we analyzed it to death. We had analysis paralysis! And guess what - that bank is no more.... But we were a GREAT company. It's what we were best at. Maybe GM is similar - a great company as companies are measured. But how fast can they get a great new design out?

Disclaimer: Never been a GM fan really, although there are some of their cars I like, and some I have bought in the past. YMMV.

drewmeister

I just love these people that like ripping this country and what we make apart. We are the only country to land a man on the moon, we make the finest airplanes in the world and the finest weapons. We built the most powerful rocket ever built. We are leaders in developing many electronics. We have developed some of finest medicines in the world. And some don't think we can make parts for automobiles and assemble them good enough?

I know, I know, I was out for a few days and got behind in this thread. This is a very old post. I'm sorry.

Now that that's out of the way, this was also an excellent statement. It illustrates my point exactly from a few days ago, as well as the points of a few other posters. If we can make the best of all of these items, (granted that some of our satellites ride up on non-US made rockets), then why DON'T we make the best cars in the world? Most of you won't remember the originall version of the Ford GT, the GT40. It was built the American way. Henry set out to whip Ferrari, just because he wanted to (for reasons not necessary here). For the first couple of years, they failed, but they learned. By LeMans of '66, they won four times in a row against the very best car makers in the world, until Ford had made his point. I don't think Henry walked in and said to his engineers, "build a car that can win LeMans, unless it conflicts with pensions or health care costs". He went in and said "make me a car that will beat Ferrari's best".
So, if the guys running GM and Ford don't want to end up being owned by bigger, healthier companies a la Chrysler, then they must stop trying to slip one by the customer or rely on fervent Patriotism. Since we know that American companies could make the best cars if they wanted to, why don't they? If you start building the best cars, even at a loss, you will change the future market. Toyota had a 45 year handicap when they entered the US market in 1960. Americans made fun of Japanese quality. Even in the early 80's they still were poking fun at Japanese quality. Toyota and Honda have turned out a quality product year after year, and built their reputation by word of mouth. GM and Ford must do the same thing to ensure they have a future.

drewmeister

It has nothing to do with American craftsmanship. If you bought a couple junky American cars, it might have been a bum part from a supplier or an under-engineered part. Any make or model of car can have those problems.

The first time one of your Hondas eats a transmission at 30k, then what? Are you going to paint all Japanese cars as junk, just like you did from your Taurus experience? You're going to run out of countries to boycott!

You're right. Under-engineering is definitely the root of the problem. For an example, any of the $79 particle-board entertainment centers that college students purchase usually lean way to one side or the other, and are prone to sagging. It is impossible for the person who assembles it to improve over the baseline of its engineering (but it is possible to really assemble it wrong and make the problem worse).

As you say, if a Honda drops a transmission at 30k miles, it would be a disappointment. If it happened in a high frequency (failure rate) consumers would begin to pass their opinions on to others. Horror stories would make the rounds. "Don't buy one of these" advice would begin to affect purchase decisions. Honda would suffer. This is what has happened to GM, Ford, and DC.
As I read all the Neon posts earlier I laughed, because I've known exactly two people who had Neons. One had a head-gasket failure, the other had an engine failure. Both at under 50k miles. Now, these were the earlier cars (~1996) but I wouldn't buy a Neon or PT Cruiser based on those experiences. It's human nature. My little used Acura finally started to fall apart at 12 years old and 180k miles. It taught me by experience that I could trust Honda/Acura. No one suddenly decided back in 1985 or so that they would begin a media campaign to ruin American car companies. Remember "what is good for General Motors is good for the US"? They really had to work hard to screw that up. My grandfathers fought against the Japanese, and when they entered the US market in the sixties, most of those men were still in their forties. The memories were still fresh. If anyone ever had a built-in advantage, it was GM/Ford/Chrysler/AMC. So, who do you blame? Suddenly, more people in the US are buying Camrys than other sedans. Why? Evil media campaign? What is the reason if not repuation?

nvbanker

Great Core Values....

Nice you know them too, most employees don't. Does it affect their performance, I don't believe it does. I have created many a mission statement, then Value statements, now Core Values for large corporations in my career - they're all show and no go IMO. They go on a shelf, or a screen saver, but nobody cares, or knows them. Certainly, they don't make a difference. Every employee to the man or woman, is concerned about not getting fired first, everything else comes second, and this crap, never gets on the list. Just how I feel after decades of experience.

claydog

But how fast can they get a great new design out?

This is an important priority at GM . The answer is faster than ever before and getting faster by the day. Speed is only one consideration along with excellent quality and design execution

socala4

GM pride is alive and well.

If it is, then it's part of the problem. They shouldn't be proud -- they should be embarrassed!

It's akin to a twelve-step program -- the first step is admitting that you have a problem. If you don't understand that declining market share is a not-so-subtle hint from the consumers that you're supposed to serve, then that would explain why the problems continue.

I think that the best thing for GM would be for its US and Canadian sales to fall by 50% in a single year. Then, there would be absolutely no doubt that there is a problem,and panicing managers and stockholders would either force a change or perish. Blindly supporting the Big 2.5 has simply helped to lull them to the problems, and to put them out of touch with who really counts most -- the customer.

nvbanker

Have to agree with you drewmeister. I have bought a ton of cars in my lifetime, for myself and business. I have owned virtually all makes except SAAB, Jaguar, MB, BMW, and the Rolls niche. I prefer Fords in the American fleets, yet I know that some year Taurus' were problems. I also ran 2 of them over 300,000 miles before they were done, and have one 2000 with 190,000. Frankly, doubt it will make it much over 200,000 for some reason.

Both Toyota and Honda make better functional cars than Domestics overall, IMO. Have had both, and they are awesome, but boring. There's something to be said for style and fun, and neither of those brands really get that yet. Getting closer.

But defining an "American" car today, is nothing like doing it even 30 years ago. Frankly, I have abandon that whole philosphy now. It's a world economy, the UAW is driving Domestics out of the country for assembly and has no clue that it's actually them who are killing their own member's jobs. Japan figured out a few decades ago that they had to build the cars in America to defeat the tariffs and restrictions, but they are mostly non-union. Still, the cars they build on our soil, sometimes aren't as good as the ones they import. (Nissan Armada, MB M class for example, both trouble prone). Then there's DC, a German company, who makes Chryslers here. Why are they any more American today than Toyota? To me, they're not.

In the end, I like to keep jobs here, but buying a Fusion helps Ford just like buying a Jaguar does. But not a lot of assembly jobs or engineering is local.

Ok, I'm rambling, your turn.

nvbanker

Agree with you too, socala. GM pride is a false pride, just like their ad campaign in the early 90's, GM IS PUTTING QUALITY ON THE ROAD. The cars didn't change, just the ad campaign. They still took longer to build a car than any Japanese brand and Ford at the time. That has now changed quite a bit, and the quality is better, no doubt now. Ugly is now their biggest problem, particularly in the interiors. For example, I LOVE the H2, and the H3 frankly. But the interiors are very spartan and uncomfortable. Can't do that.

mayberryguy

depends on which model of JD you buy. The cheaper ones use a Briggs and Stratton motor, which is the tractor equivalent of a Chevy 3.4 or Ford Vulcan 3.0. Nicer models use a Kohler, which is more akin to a quality OHC car engine.

If you go up to the X Series garden tractor, you get a great Kawasaki with EFI and liquid cooling. I have one and love it. Very quiet for 25hp.

Back on subject, I agree that no 4cyl sounds good to my ear unless it has a turbo attached. A sweet inline 6 fits my ear best.

drfill

Get that Camaro on the road by Spring 2008!

If Toyota can get the Sienna from approved to built in 1.5 years, GM can get the Camaro out in time for Summer of 08.

We'll see. If they do, I'll defect to Chevy! That's my kind of ride! :shades:

Hope they offer a small-block V8 under any 400HP model.

DrFill

bmk32

GM pride is alive and well.

If it is, then it's part of the problem. They shouldn't be proud -- they should be embarrassed!

I couldn't disagree with you more socala4, this is where your way off base and become redundant in your posts. GM folks have plenty to be proud about, and at the same time fully realize the challenges that lie ahead. If you knew even one of them, you'd know.

It's clear from your post(s) that GM is your favorite target though.......your post(s) imply (whether you intend them to or not) a distinct dislike for GM !

bmk32

"If Toyota can get the Sienna from approved to built in 1.5 years, GM can get the Camaro out in time for Summer of 08."

LOL ! 1.5 years huh ? I think you've missed over 75% of the VDP in your calculations my friend..... but it is kinda funny though.

bmk32

Quality creates customer enthusiasm !

You are 100% correct claydog.

socala4

GM folks have plenty to be proud about, and at the same time fully realize the challenges that lie ahead.

I'd like to know what that is. Would that be the fleet sales, the lack of a decent compact car in the line-up, the mixed bag of reliability or the poor resale values?

It's clear from your post(s) that GM is your favorite target though.

Actually, I'm just surprised that the same GM that produces that bland rental dreck in North America is responsible for some decent cars and designs in Australia and Europe. Maybe the guys in Detroit need to apply for passports, and learn that there are other people within their own company who are more than capable of creating a decent product.

bmk32

"I do enjoy this (futile but) persistent attempt to convince America that "Japanese" cars are awful, while GM cars are simply fantastic. Do you honestly believe that it's working?"

ABSOLUTELY ! There's just millions and millions of us out here !!!! We all have the same "perception" based on the ever loving discussions that revolve around that dang "quality gap" !!!! :P

bmk32

"Actually, I'm just surprised that the same GM that produces that bland rental dreck in North America is responsible for some decent cars and designs in Australia and Europe. Maybe the guys in Detroit need to apply for passports, and learn that there are other people within their own company who are more than capable of creating a decent product."

There you go again !! Ah well, to each there own. Thank-you for consistently proving my point !

Have a passport thank-you, currently employed with a European eng. software supply company, travel all around the world, and ride/drive in many, many different automobiles all the time. I'm always glad to get back to the US of A, get in my Chevy and go home. Life is good.

socala4

There's just millions and millions of us out here !!!!

But there are fewer and fewer of you all the time. (That's evidenced by the declining market share figure.)

Successful companies respond to market share loss and customer defections by getting nervous. When York spoke of the need for a greater sense of urgency among GM management, I guess he wasn't kidding.

bmk32

The motor was banging like it was badly out of time. Do they all do this?"

Yes. Each and every one. It is a trait of all OHC engines that they sound like John Deere tractors. And panel gaps on all new Japanese cars can vary as much as 1/2" from top to bottom. The reason that their owner's love them so much is that the Japanese use a specially treated plastic which outgasses a mind altering substance for the life of the car so that their owners never perceive any problems.

Now, if only GM would adopt the same strategy, all would be fine.....

One of the most entertaining posts in the first 1,760 ! Very good rorr.....

nvbanker

Of folks who buy old Rental cars from fleets, but don't know it. Yes, there are. New domestic car customers are becoming scarce, my friend....more every day. Sad, but true.

I just bought an 06 Mercury, so I'm one of them, but I also drive a Lexus, because Domestically, there is nothing to rival it.

bmk32

But there are fewer and fewer of you all the time. (That's evidenced by the declining market share figure.)

Not really, in this Global economy we're all being relocated to China and buying Buick's.

socala4

I'm always glad to get back to the US of A, get in my Chevy and go home.

Funny thing -- my first reaction after having driven an Opel Corsa was to ask, "How did the same GM that had the audacity to sell us the Cavalier with a straight face do so well with this? Nice job, too bad a US-friendly version isn't sold in the US."

When I tried out the Holden Commodore, my thought was, "Why is a US-oriented version of this car not being made? It wouldn't even need much modification to suit our tastes."

When I looked at the Aussie Ford Falcon, what ran through my head was, "This beats the pants off of a Taurus. Too bad they aren't offering these to Americans."

I probably made a mistake with the passport comments. They probably should be transferring the Aussies and Europeans to jobs in Detroit, and giving pink slips, rather than passports, to the Americans.

jta

This is a great thread, and it has taken me a few days to catch up.....!

I would like to share a few of my thoughts on the subject that haven't been brought up yet.

First, I have purchased (8) GM cars up to this point in my life, and (2) "foreign" cars.

Based on my currently owned vehicles, (2) GM & (1) foreign, my next vehicle will probably be a Honda or Totota. For an everyday vehicle, that doesn't need to be flashy or a "statement" reflecting "who I am", Honda and Toyota have dependable vehicles that offer all amenities people need. They have built up a reputation for being well built and dependable. My GM vehicle, while not having a lot of problems, did have more 3x more issues than my import, that required a trip to the dealer. And, I'm not sure about everyone else's visits to the dealer, but mine are never pleasant. Even when vehicles are under warranty, they're assumption is that it's always the customers fault until proven otherwise. Myself and others I have discussed it with HATE to have to bring a vehicle to the dealership. Because of the bad experiences which I'm am sure don't just plague the GM dealers, I want the most reliable car I can get because I want to make a few trips to the dealer as possible.

Now, if I want a car with some personality, my first choice is one of the big 2.5. If you want something with a V8, first thing that comes to mind is a great Chevy V8. The foreign manufacturers are quickly gaining ground, but my initial thought would be American. With that being said, I would also "expect" the car NOT to be as reliable. I would actually expect to have more problems. Sad, but that is my perception and experience with GM vehicles. A muscle car would HAVE TO BE AMERICAN. (I currently still own a 1978 Trans Am)You can't beat "American Muscle". But, these vehicle can't sustain GM.

These are just my perceptions of the auto industry, and appear to be the growing perception of a lot of people.

On another area
GM has focused and relied too long on the larger, higher profit vehicles. They are slow to change, and adapt to market conditions. Working for a company that supplies raw goods to the big 2.5, I can say that GM has been slow to update manufacturing to improve efficiencies and quality. This is something that Toyota had done long ago. GM is playing catch up right now, implementing new equipment that will allow "Variable Platform" production lines. Yes they are closing plants, but this is partially due to better utilization of capacity at remaining facilities. Essentially, the updated facilities will allow them to go from producing only vehicles based on (1) specific platform at a facility, to as many as (4). This results in better utilization of resources, thus "LOWER COSTS". GM has suffered for a long time with too much excess capacity and under utilized factories.

Also, as stated earlier on this thread, GM squeezes every supplier to the point that profit margins become too thin. Sub suppliers start to rely on "unskilled Labor" to help reduce costs, thus resulting in inferior products. For a lot of suppliers, if there is a MAJOR issue that arises with the product they manufacture, and costs of any significance are incurred, they can be forced out of business. Over the last 5 years, I have seen a LOT of GM suppliers come and go. Toyota on the other hand has a system in place in which they work with suppliers and sub-suppliers to help reduce costs while allowing the suppliers to still maintain a decent profit margin, thus creating a win-win relationship, instead of the "give and take" relationship GM has. GM takes a discount from their suppliers that compounds yearly. Due to high volumes, typically parts supplied to GM already carry a smaller profit margin. Then, GM will tell you, we are "demanding" a 5% discount per year for the next 3 years. Unless you find a way to take some cost out of your product, you face shrinking profits, and there are products that just don't have any cost reductions left. then what?

I think GM is already on the right path, it will just take some time to rebuild their reputation.

xrunner2

Not really, in this Global economy we're all being relocated to China and buying Buick's.

Stay put. Bricklin will be bringing in Cherys soon according to today's WSJ. Will China-made GM be far behind. Are we close to the beginning of the end for lemko. Aren't some Chevies (not Cherys) already equipped with Chinese engines?

bmk32

"Funny thing -- my first reaction after having driven an Opel Corsa was to ask, "How did the same GM that had the audacity to sell us the Cavalier with a straight face do so well with this? Nice job, too bad a US-friendly version isn't sold in the US."

When I tried out the Holden Commodore, my thought was, "Why is a US-oriented version of this car not being made? It wouldn't even need much modification to suit our tastes."

Here I agree with you 100%. Very good observation. Keep a close eye on the Saturn brand over the next year, and you may like what you see, and it will be very Opel/Holden like in every way !

bmk32

"Stay put. Bricklin will be bringing in Cherys soon according to today's WSJ. Will China-made GM be far behind. Are we close to the beginning of the end for lemko. Aren't some Chevies (not Cherys) already equipped with Chinese engines?"

Very true, the Chinese will be here soon.....

bmk32

Actually socala4, if you go to Saturn.com, click on the "vehicles" tab, then click on "future vehicles", check out the Aura (sp?), it's the first of the Opel/Vauxhal (sp? again...) cars based on GM's global Epsilon platform for Saturn (the Malibu & G6 are Epsilon too, just tuned specifically for Chevy & Pontiac), and it is very European inside & out. The interior is drop dead gorgeous. Aura will be in Saturn showrooms later this year, I've seen one at GM's proving grounds, and it's very, very promising. Very much like the cars from GME you spoke about.....

bobad

Americans made fun of Japanese quality.

Drew,

So true! Unfortunately, you must be obsessive about excellence to compete with the Japanese. Americans, workers and management just can't cut it. Oh, we have the talent and ingenuity. It's not that we aren't good enough. I think unions and political corectness stand in the way. Heck, it's almost impossible to fire a worker that makes repeated mistakes. We also have bland, coke-sniffing VP's without a vision that stand in the way of excellence. Last but not least, we have old prune-faced board of directors that are not willing to take risks by following those with a vision and a love of cars. The big 2.5 have "institutionalized" themselves out of the race.

rockylee

If this starts to become the "norm" I will by Japanese ! :mad:

Rocky

wonderbread

what is funny about american named companys, the SMALL 3 most of there cars are made in MEXICO and in other almost 3rd world countries.............IF YOU ARE SMART WITH YOUR MONEY............IF......you would buy a HONDA a real car company.........most hondas are made in the good ol USA by americans................sorry IM gonna make all of the ol BUY AMERICAN people mad. buy if you want to buy american,,,,,,,,,,,buy a car made in AMERICA>>>> and one choice in HONDA not the SMALL 3

bmk32

"what is funny about american named companys, the SMALL 3 most of there cars are made in MEXICO and in other almost 3rd world countries"

So untrue and ridiculous that even this reply is a waste of time & energy....................

bmk32

I left out the Saab 9-3, that's global epsilon as well.

fintail

How many GM employees (especially the overpaid underworked white collar breed) stop in here nowadays? I feel like I'm at a dealership or maybe a corporate suit convention sometimes...

rockylee

Let's compare notes. Lets look at the avg. NA content of the so called "small 3" vs the so called big 3 of Toyota, Honda, Nissan.

Dude that is the most ridiculous thing yet I've ever heard. Yes perhaps someday Honda or Toyota will have more NA content, but presently they don't even come close. YOU ARE OBVIOUSLY VERY :confuse: or are just saying that to "tick off" some of the posters in this forum. :surprise:

Rocky

andres3

Funny.... I haven't had to boycott any car companies other than American Car companies due to Chrysler/Dodge's excessively poorly made Dodge Neon. Poor Engineering. Fraudulent sales pitches. Fraudulent design. They should of sold the vehicle as a "3 year temporary car" Not a permanent vehicle, more like a throwaway BIC plastic razor for shaving.
I haven't had to boycott Honda or Toyota ever. I don't think I'll run out of car companies by boycotting a company that commits fraud and sells lemons to everyone, even if it is just once.

bigo08

the small 3 ha thats funny last time i checked they were still the BIG 3 .

andres3

Consumer Reports just announced their Top Ten for '06. Details here at CR top ten

2 Subies, 2 Toyotas, 5 Hondas, 1 Nissan. No domestics, though the Hondas have a strong US flavor.

Maybe Consumer Reports is owned by Japanese interests??? LOL..... HAHAHAHAHAHA (I have to laugh at people that actually try to persuade others that American car companies are making competitive or reliable cars!

tlong

I think that the best thing for GM would be for its US and Canadian sales to fall by 50% in a single year. Then, there would be absolutely no doubt that there is a problem...

I just read an article that GM's high priced management has decided that they DO have a problem. They "need to start taking the competition seriously"! Do ya think after 30 years of spending all that expensive money on them that they've finally figured it out?

I'm sure glad that they have professional managers. Wouldn't want to rely on the opinions of us regular types on these boards.

tlong

GM pride is a false pride, just like their ad campaign in the early 90's, GM IS PUTTING QUALITY ON THE ROAD. The cars didn't change, just the ad campaign.

Totally agree. I had to sit through too many GM commercials during the winter Olympics - "GM is putting America on the road". The big American theme. You'd think they would have more to say than that.

A brand should stand for something. What do different cars signify?:

Audi - sporty, interiors
Toyota - reliability, quality
Honda - reliability, ergonomics, engines
BMW - ultimate driving machine (their slogan actually means something we believe)
Mazda - reliable, sporty, quirky
Subaru - reliable, 4wd
Chrysler - styling
Mercedes - luxury, built like a tank
Pontiac - faux sporty, cladding
Buick - old people
Cadillac - tarnished emblem greatly improved. Edgy styling
GM - trucks
Chevy - cheap, unrefined cars. Mass appeal to patriots. How long will the word "America" in ads continue to sell cars?
Saturn - good dealer experience. Slipping differentiation with rest of the company.

nvbanker

Consumer Reports is not biased, or owned by the Japanese. But their READERS are biased, because mostly import buyers take time for such things, subscribing, reading and filling out surveys. So, you're going to get that bias. I don't know why - it's just that way.

I don't subscribe. Only read if someone drops one in my face, figure I can decide what's good and what I like on my own, without checking with scores of people who could be morons, for all I know. I'm a car guy. I don't need them to tell me what's good, or what I like.

I have a Brother in Law (schoolteacher by trade) who won't buy a toaster without consulting Consumer Reports. I think I've done as well as he has on my own buying my stuff. Although, I have gotten stung on some cordless phones.....especially since Sony quit making them.

kdhspyder

Actually at 40K per year I hardly ever brake. In 16 yrs of Camry's I've never replaced brakes. At just over 150K I did oil seals and gaskets.

All 4c Camry's ( in the past ) needed timing belts in the 70-90K range.

Anecdotal or not, in comparison to the 2 GM's and 3 Chryslers I had in the past ( see profile ), there is no comparison.

xrunner2

But their READERS are biased, because mostly import buyers take time for such things, subscribing, reading and filling out surveys.

"Mostly import buyers" - I guess you mean non-American brands. Do you have any facts to back this up?

rockylee

Maybe Consumer Reports is owned by Japanese interests??? LOL..... HAHAHAHAHAHA (I have to laugh at people that actually try to persuade others that American car companies are making competitive or reliable cars!

Last time I checked Buick and Cadillac were pretty damn reliable.

Rocky

nvbanker

Oh, hell no, just blowing my assumptions at ya. I should have mentioned that.

Do ya have any evidence that I'm wrong???

And yes, by Imports, I meant Domestic brands. Good catch.

xrunner2

Do ya have any evidence that I'm wrong???

You are the one making assertions. I don't need to prove anything.

nvbanker

Yes, Cadillac and Buick are pretty reliable these days. Cadillac because that's been made a real car now, and Buick, because the technology is about 1976, so they've had plenty of time to get the bugs out. Big Stinkin' deal.
So's the Crown Victoria, for the same reason. But totally blowing out all the favorite Buicks of Bluehairs to try and make it a young people's car will make it the next Olds.

ayreon

After having Pontiacs that are not even lasting over 50k miles....we've dropped out of the big 3 for good.

1997 Firebird...50k miles...original owner

replaced driver side window motor 2004

replaced both pop-up light motors 2005
replaced air compressor 2005

replaced passenger side window motor 2006
replaced steering wheel motor 2006
replaced heater core 2006
replaced tensioner gizmo 2006

needs front end suspension work....front end is dropping down...can't even go thru oil change places without having to lift front end up.

Also planned on a paint job due to white paint breaking down? orange/red specs in white paint on most plastic body parts....

Noted major trouble spot....a leak with manifold/engine...don't even want to know if it's already there.

Read many owner complaints that several repairs listed above continues over and over.

1st Firebird(1987) owned 10 years with over 100k miles and know it lasted 3 more years before being totalled by then current owners. Only replaced 1 air compressor.

2 Merc. Cougars 1984 and 1989 both ditched due to dead head gaskets(a problem Ford has had for many years and knew it).

Bought 2 Mitsubishis end of Jan. and put Firebird up for sale.

The 10 year powertrain warranty couldn't be beat. What is sad thou, the Firebird had a longer warranty all accross the board than the new GMs do. Could it be...they know the cars won't last....

Discussing/debating the big 3 tends to be a sore spot in my area....the motor city...but am seeing more and more foreign cars than ever before....

GM is going to have to do a lot more than bring back the Camaro to get the customers back....

kdhspyder

Well actually to be precise, it's just the Detroit TWO.... and all the others. Sounds like a rally or trial for political prisoners.

andres3

Even if its true that Consumer Reports has a majority of import car buyer readers, it wouldn't affect the awfully piss poor reliability ratings of US branded cars. Having 1,000,000 Hondas with only 100 reported problems, is still excellent reliability. Having 10,000 Dodge Neons, with 10,000 reported problems, is still miserably bad reliability.