Buying American Cars What Does It Mean?

robr2

I'd still like to see them move Camry production out and build Foresters there.

Getting rid of the Camry line to replace with with 40% of the production doesn't make sense.

When Foresters sell 200K a year, maybe they'll consider it.

bpizzuti

I'd still like to see Foresters built here.

And I think they're shooting for 200k, so not beyond the realm of possibility. That's one of their bread-and-butter models.

robr2

And I think they're shooting for 200k...

They are barely going to sell 200K total Subarus this year. Forester might hit 70K units. It's going to take a long time for them to sell 200K Foresters.

busiris

I think you're "spot-on" in your comments here.

I always do my search on any major product before going into a store to look at it, and in every case I can remember, I knew far more about the product line-up than the 18 year old sales clerk did at the Best Buy I was visiting. Half the time, he/she was far more interested in selling me on the extended warranty.

Regarding car dealerships, they have been hit-or-miss. The nearest Chevy dealer is staffed with NASCAR wanna-bes, and they usually know little to nothing about the product lineup. OTOH, the other local Chevy dealer is professional, and the staff there has a good understanding of the product mix. That's the dealership I bought both my last 2 GM products from, a 2002 S-10 and 2005 Aveo.

I use the Internet to price out vehicles, and so far, I've been successful in using that info to negotiate a fair price with the local dealership. My idea of a successful sales transaction is one where we both are smiling at the end, but neither one of us has a big wide grin on his face. Since I feel like the dealership personnel enjoy eating like I do, I'm willing to do everything reasonable to buy locally.

Still, I have had the occasion in the past in which the local dealer thought he was selling gold, and in those cases, he also got to keep it, as I found a more reasonably-thinking dealer nearby.

I know my methodology doesn't fit everyone's vision of car buying and that some are only out for price, and if that works for them, I'm fine with it. Personally, I don't want to see folks running away from me if/when I pull onto the lot for warranty service, etc.

bpizzuti

Did you see the sales for the 2014 in Japan the last couple of months? No, you didn't, because they went faster than speeding bullets from a Bushmaster AR-15 with a high capacity magazine. :shades:

andres3

Personally, I don't want to see folks running away from me if/when I pull onto the lot for warranty service, etc.

IsellHonda and other salespeople tell that sob story, but the fact is, if they weren't making money on you, they wouldn't sell it to you.

He says he started hating those "savvy" shoppers, but really, I'd think they'd be the easiest to deal with. All you have to do is give them the real rock bottom price right away at the beginning (and I mean the same rock bottom price you'd offer your own mother or daughter), right off the top.

This would save everyone's time and it's an easy take it or leave it offer.

What's the big deal? Now, if you give a rock bottom price and they still want you to spend 2 hours showing them every feature of the car.... I could see the justification in complaining about that. But if they are willing to sign and drive as fast as you can print the paperwork? What's the harm?

robr2

Did you see the sales for the 2014 in Japan the last couple of months? No, you didn't, because they went faster than speeding bullets from a Bushmaster AR-15 with a high capacity magazine.

You're right I didn't. I was only looking at US sales as that is where production in Indiana is sold.

If Subaru were to move 100% of production of the Forester to the US, then it might be feasible to move Camry production out. Then again, the could keep Camry and expand for the Forester.

berri

Andres, I agree with your observation that Best Buy's real problem is pricing. Car dealers are an interesting proposition. I'll go a bit higher and reckon that about a third of the car salespeople are knowledgeable about the product. But in reality the game is one of merchandising with the big difference from most other retailers being the high inventory financing costs they incur. However, I'll bet most people are more interested in looks, status and the like, than the actual product. Also, while people often say they'd like a simplified buying experience, and personally I'm with you on this one, unfortunately one price dealers don't tend to last. In reality many buyers are going to dicker - sad part is, most focus on the invoice and neglect things like financing terms, dealer add ons, depreciation at the back end, or dealer after the sale support and reputation. Sadly, Americans often don't seem to excel in a multivariate environment. Of course that too often applies to government and corporate suits as well.

ateixeira

Well, add Forester, Impreza, WRX, and BRZ sales and you get...right about 200k, coincidentally.

And all those are built on the same lines in Gunma, Japan, so it's feasible to replace the Camry line here with those.

robr2

And all those are built on the same lines in Gunma, Japan, so it's feasible to replace the Camry line here with those.

The only drawback to that is that's the only plant that supplies ROW AFAIK including JDM. Is Subaru willing to accept the political backlash of closing Gunma and importing to Japan?

ateixeira

Good point, it's not like they could add 200k of sales....

Gunma has struggle to keep up with demand for years, though. Add favorable exchange rates, hot new models, and it could work.

Impreza sales skyrocketed with the new fuel efficient model so things look good for the next Forester.

bpizzuti

They're already expanding, I'm hoping some of that expansion will go to Forester production.

isellhondas

Oh, I don't think I ever said I "hated" savvy" shoppers and actually found people who knew exactly what they wanted very easy to deal with.

What I really had no use for were the downright cheapskates who would lie to me and run all over town trying to squeeze out the last 50.00 on a deal.

Maybe you think that's just being a smart shopper and that's fine with me.

I also despised the customers who lied to me or showed no respect.

I was planning to work a few more years but one day I decided I had had enough and I retired early.

I also had a lot of wonderful, loyal customers that sent me referrals knowing their friends and neighbors would be treated in a professional manner.

I only used Best Buy as an example. We have one two miles from our home and they have always been knowledgeble and friendly when I have shopped there. Other locations may differ.

Making a decent profit isn't an evil thing. It takes a LOT of overhead to keep a brick and morter store up and running. I know you don't care one twit about that but that is the reason they may have to charge a bit more.

Rumors are that BB won't be able to survive at this point so I guess none of this really matters.

robr2

They're already expanding, I'm hoping some of that expansion will go to Forester production.

They announced they are expanding but only for about 30K Subaru units. Both the Forester and Impreza sell about 60K units a year here. Maybe it'll be for a new Tribeca. Toyota also wants to increase Camry production there from 100K to 170K by 2016.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2013/01/472255/

busiris

What I really had no use for were the downright cheapskates who would lie to me and run all over town trying to squeeze out the last 50.00 on a deal.

Oh, I see you've dealt with my BIL before.

He'd rather shave 2 years off his life due to the stress of hammering out the lowest rock bottom price for a bunch of bananas that just accept the price and pay it.

On the positive side, he his antics give the rest of the family a little comedic relief periodically...

robr2

He'd rather shave 2 years off his life due to the stress of hammering out the lowest rock bottom price for a bunch of bananas that just accept the price and pay it.

As we call them here in Boston - chiselers. I'll bet Lincoln squints his eyes when your BIL opens his wallet!!

andre1969

On the positive side, he his antics give the rest of the family a little comedic relief periodically...

That sort of reminds me of a line from "Mama's Family". Something along the lines of "All that stuff that drives me up the wall when you do it to me...I love it when you do it to other people!"

Come to think of it, I think it was an episode where Mama was dealing with a shady used car salesman after buying a bum '73 Nova.

andre1969

I'll bet Lincoln squints his eyes when your BIL opens his wallet!!

LOL, I always heard it as "he/she could squeeze a nickel 'til the buffalo poops!"

busiris

We all accuse him of thinking a nickel comes in the size of a Conestoga wagon wheel.

gagrice

Rumors are that BB won't be able to survive at this point so I guess none of this really matters.

They are still making a profit. Maybe poor producing stores will be shut down. I like to build my own computers from top quality parts. So do not shop BB. We have several local places, one in particular that always have the components I want and prices equal to mail order or less. They give you a 3% break for cash which I always do.

I think on car shoppers there are enough like my brother in law that just likes to pick out the vehicle he wants and pays whatever the dealer says. He has bought his last several Fords from the same dealer. I would guess most people do not like to dicker on price. Most give up the good discounts on the financing schemes. To me getting the best price is most of the fun in buying a vehicle. I won't waste gas driving all over town. I use the phone and now the internet. If they do not have a competent online sales staff they won't see me on their lot. Back in the 1970s and 80s I flew to Seattle or Portland to buy as the dealers in Alaska have a captive audience and know it. I got in a hurry once and bought in Anchorage. I got shafted big time on a Subaru. Wife needed a car fast. Never again.

dieselone

I saw something from them recently about matching online prices now. Knowing their customer service in the past, I'd imagine they'd act like a typical insurance company during a claim, when you ask them to match a price.

I think Best Buy is getting better. I buy a lot of stuff online, but when I was TV shopping, I looked everywhere. Online and brick and mortar. When I was talking with a sales person at BB about the TV I wanted, the first thing he did right in front of me was look up Amazon's price.

I did buy my TV from Best Buy and I went ahead and bough a AVR receiver and some speakers which combined were about $400 cheaper than Amazon. The TV was the same price. Plus free deliver and they are hauling away my 200lb 35" tube for free. So I'm happy.

Now Best Buy's pricing for accessories like HDMI cables and speaker wire etc is insane. No way am I going to spend $50 on an HDMI cable when I can get a perfectly cable one from Amazon for $5-10.

dieselone

What I really had no use for were the downright cheapskates who would lie to me and run all over town trying to squeeze out the last 50.00 on a deal.

Maybe you think that's just being a smart shopper and that's fine with me.

I also despised the customers who lied to me or showed no respect.

I've worked in retail and in various sales positions. I learned a long time ago that the customer isn't always right.

Also, I found if a customer was hard to work during the sale, they were often a PITA to deal with after the sale too. So if they walk over $50 bucks, let them, they'll make someone else miserable.

But yeah, it's easy to talk about horrible customer experiences because they tend to stick out. OTOH, good customers (not because they're willing to pay to much) are a joy to work with and I honestly try to help them with a better price, or service.

I've had a few customers where if their number came up on a Friday at 4:55, that call was going to VM. While others I'd answer my phone to make sure they didn't have a problem I could help them with prior to the weekend. I just don't like dealing with jerks unless I can find a way to be compensated accordingly. Which can be very rewarding;)

isellhondas

Does everyone here know how copper wire was invented?

Two mooches were fighting over a penny!

isellhondas

There used to come a point in a transaction that I really didn't care whehter or not my customer bought the car. They usually sensed this.

Then I had to remind myself that I didn't own the store and that my job was to make the sale no matter how I felt. I would always do this to the best of my ability and I was good at it.

Still, I can probably think of maybe a dozen customers in my career that I hope I never see again. These people stepped WAY over the line.

Honestly I don't think these people were ever happy. I would watch and listen how they talked to their spouses and their kids. Years later, I would see them in the Service Dept griping over one thing or another or demanding warranty work for something that was way out of warranty or something they had broken themselves.

I once had a nasty woman customer whose kids seemed to think the slot on the CD player was the same slot on their piggy bank.

The first time we did the job for free and it isn't an easy job. The second time she raised so much fuss that we did the job again at no charge.

The third time we told her that we would charge her and she couldn't understand why.

When her car had 80,000 miles on it, a quickie lube shop installed the wrong oil filter and she lost her oil on the freeway and blew up her engine.

She thought we should do a "goodwill" job and replace her engine.

I would go to bat for most of my customers that I liked and that was the majority of them.

uplanderguy

I have to think being an employee of a dealer's Service Department has to be a bad job. Everyone blames you for building the car! LOL

I've always realized this. I wait my turn, talk respectfully, explain PRECISELY what I think the car is doing, and listen politely.

This has nearly always worked well for me. I'm fussy about stuff, but I've never been turned down for warranty work, and I've gotten some stuff free waaayyyy beyond the warranty period.

It's about being realistic, honest, and polite I think.

robr2

I've always realized this. I wait my turn, talk respectfully, explain PRECISELY what I think the car is doing, and listen politely.....This has nearly always worked well for me. I'm fussy about stuff, but I've never been turned down for warranty work, and I've gotten some stuff free waaayyyy beyond the warranty period.

That works for me too. I'm respectful of the service writers and give them great scores on any surveys. It gets me priority appointments, free labor at times and rentals/loaners even though my car is way out of warranty.

busiris

It's about being realistic, honest, and polite I think.

That works for me too. I'm respectful of the service writers and give them great scores on any surveys. It gets me priority appointments, free labor at times and rentals/loaners even though my car is way out of warranty.

Add me to the list as well.

I've always gotten better treatment by being courteous and respectful in any dealings with others than when I was belligerent and hateful. And, at the end of the day, no stress.

In fact, I've even been given freebies for being respectful. Example: When my wife ordered her 2005 Mini convertible, there were several delays in its delivery once it reached the dealership. As a gesture of goodwill, the sales manager gave my wife the windscreen that mounts behind the front seats that deflects the wind when the top is down... a $400 dealer option.

andres3

I have to think being an employee of a dealer's Service Department has to be a bad job. Everyone blames you for building the car! LOL

What about the credit for building a great car that never needs there services? I'd imagine a good Honda or Toyota would never have the Warranty Service Manager ever even meet the customer. I'd give them credit for getting a job where they won't have to do much work.

uplanderguy

Swing by a Toyota or Honda dealer's Service Department. It'll be full of cars...just like everybody else's. And to say they wouldn't need warranty work...I would guarantee you that I could find something that I'd take it back for.

andres3

...I would guarantee you that I could find something that I'd take it back for.

You'll lose that guarantee on some of the best Honda's and Toyota's of the past. They truly did have some that were flawless even under a microscope (the one's with a VIN starting with a J).

Guess those Honda and Toyota dealers are offering a lot of free or discounted oil changes to keep the service bays busy

I kid you, but yes, they do get some work to correct Ohioans mistakes during assembly. Then of course, there are those transmissions that couldn't handle 240+ HP V6's.....

andres3

About where my car is made or manufactured or assembled.

What I care about is a manufacturer hiring the most qualified, highly skilled, most competent workers available anywhere in the world to make and assemble my vehicle.

Somehow I don't think the UAW has an interest in assisting with that customer focused goal.

tlong

Guess those Honda and Toyota dealers are offering a lot of free or discounted oil changes to keep the service bays busy

Don't forget that they sell something like 3x cars per dealer of the D3, or something like that.

gagrice

What about the credit for building a great car that never needs there services?

My friend that sold Buick until the small dealership closed up, told me they did not get enough service related problems to justify a full time staff. He now sells Nissan but remains loyal to Buick being the best car for the money. With the least amount of problems. Not sure if CR backs that up.

isellhondas

We have owned probably six or seven new Hondas and we have NEVER had even one warranty repair done even when I had our Service Dept 50 feet from where I was working.

Nope, not right...the clock light bulb on my 1998 Accord burned out after two years and that was fixed under warranty.

uplanderguy

I bought my hometown Chevy dealer's new '82 Monte Carlo demo. I thought that if something bugged him in 6K miles, he'd have had it taken care of.

Nope. I was fussier than the owner of the dealer's.

I've heard things about the current Accord and brake wear, and recently on here, about oil consumption.

My boss (a good bit younger than me) has probably an '09 or '10, but I've never heard him say one thing about a car. He's not the type (meh).

gagrice

My boss (a good bit younger than me) has probably an '09 or '10, but I've never heard him say one thing about a car.

What can you say about a 2010 Honda Accord? I sure would not brag about owning one. I got a 2010 Accord as a rental for 2 weeks. It was not particularly comfortable or quiet on the road. It was an appliance car to the max. Worst part, I had a Nissan Altima the first day and they called me to bring it in, they had sold it. Budget car rentals do that sort of thing. The electronic door unlock was horrible on the Accord. I took it back the next day to try and get a better car, they did not have any large vehicles to rent. What little I got to drive the Altima it was a nicer car than the Accord. I rented a Camry a few years before and it was better than the Accord. I usually rent an SUV if available.

busiris

I have nothing against Hondas, and I have family and friends that love them.

But for me, I've never found one that I felt comfortable sitting in. Across the board, the seats all seem a bit Spartan and utilitarian to me, and too stiff. I think the term "appliance" is a very good descriptor.

My BMW sports-style Seats could be described as stiff as well, but BMW has done an excellent job of bolstering the sides on them.

The seats are the primary reason I would not consider buying any Honda I have seen (at least, up to now).

berri

I had an Ody that had nice, deep leather seats, but I know what you mean about a lot of Asian vehicles - short seat bottoms and/or backs.

ateixeira

The Accord just got a nice update. It's quieter, too, and was one of only 2 mainstream sedans to do well on the brutal new IIHS crash test.

gagrice

It took me 43 years to forgive Toyota and buy another one. It will be 2021 before Honda's 43 year wait period is up. I did give them a look in 2007 and the MDX did not impress me at all. Hard seats that were not comfortable on our short test drive. The 07 Sequoia seats are FAR better. I also tested the GX and LX. GX is over rated and the LX was nice. They only had one in the color I liked pearl white. It had a large scratch on the front fender. Salesman tried to tell me that could be fixed easy. Pearl paint is not easily fixed. He did not think it was bad enough to deal on price. Nice SUVs just not as roomy as the Sequoia.

isellhondas

To each his own when it comes to what is comfortable and what is not.

I know I can drive for six hours in our Hondas and not have a backache because of the "stiff" supportive seats.

According to the latest Consumer Reports Honda has finally solved the road noise problem with the 2013 Accords.

This never really bothered me but it has long been a sticking point and I know it has resulted in a loss of some sales in the past.

ateixeira

Ha you are tough!

I gave Ford a 5 year break. Then Ford Credit tried to screw me and I haven't been back since (22 years).

andre1969

but I know what you mean about a lot of Asian vehicles - short seat bottoms and/or backs.

That's one issue I've had with some of the Nissan vehicles I've ridden in. The best way I could describe it is that it felt like they were putting compact-car seats in their bigger models.

Supposedly the 2013 Altima is a pretty comfy ride, but I haven't tried one out yet. I have sort of mixed feelings about the 2007-2012 model. It seems to have good legroom in front, and I can fit in the back seat without my knees touching the front. However, while the interior room is pretty good, the seats felt a bit thin and small to me.

Same thing with my buddy's 2006 Xterra, although in addition to the not-so-hot seats, it also doesn't have a lot of legroom, for me at least. The seating position is somewhat high, but the seat doesn't go very far back, so it's sort of like driving an old pickup truck.

andre1969

I gave Ford a 5 year break. Then Ford Credit tried to screw me and I haven't been back since (22 years).

And, you might want to hold off a bit longer, judging from Ford's quality problems of late. To add fuel to the fire, one of my coworkers has a 2011 Ford Explorer, with about 30,000 miles on it. Last week it went back to the dealer, for its SIXTH unscheduled repair! :sick:

Really is a shame, because she says that other than the quality issues, she really likes it alot. Her previous car was a 2005 Focus that was a great car, and one of the reasons she decided to stay with Ford when she wanted a new vehicle.

bpizzuti

The 2013 Altima has EXTREMELY comfortable seats. I just don't like the rest of the car. The steering is numb, they forgot to put a manual mode on the CVT (a requirement for me), and it's got a trunk.

ateixeira

A friend just replaced a Range Rover Sport with an Explorer, I will ask him how he likes it.

andre1969

Oh, and not to sound too Nissan-huggy, but my bud's '06 Xterra recently hit the 100,000 mile mark, with no major issues. At least, nothing I'd consider major. It had two tire pressure monitors fail, and he had to have the HVAC controls worked on twice.

I think everything was covered by an extended warranty he had purchased. However, he did pay way too much, IMO, for that extended warranty. I forget how much, but I think it was about $2,000 or more. And the few warranty repairs it covered weren't all that much.

Personally though, I'm not too crazy about the direction Nissan styling is going. I liked the '02-06 Altima alot, and also the '07-12. But I'm just not that fond of the 2013. It looks like they've tried to apply that same styling theme to the Sentra and Versa sedan (I think the Versa came out before the Altima though), and I think it looks even more awkward on those two.

The styling makes me think of what Lemko described, I think, sort of an odd, insectoid, 1960's Japanese sci-fi sort of look. Which, itself, was often credited as being inspired by the 1961 Plymouth!

ateixeira

Nissan is hit or miss, remember Ghosn's nick name is "le cost cutter".

Funny thing is they make some great cars and some lousy ones.

roadburner

The seats in my Mazdaspeed 3 are very comfortable- better than the standard E90 seats in fact, but not as good as Sport package or ///M car seats.
I also like the seats in my 1999 Wrangler Sahara, believe it or not...

ateixeira

It's not uncommon, sporty models often get the best seats as buyers are willing to pay more for them.