What I WOULD like to abolish is union "welfare" recipients standing around the shops all day doing practically nothing.
That only happens when a plant is cutting back pal. It's hard to justify people standing around when your co-worker is running 3 machines or doing 3 jobs. This I will admit happened in the 80's. GM had more workers than jobs whenever a reccession hit, but actually now some plants are understaffed.
I would also like to be able to fire unproductive and disruptive workers without an act of Congress. Get rid of the union dead wood, keep the decent workers (with benefits!)
My family works at 3 GM/Delphi auto-plants and like I said above there isn't lazy workers anymore because the hard workers will "police" any slackers. Trust me you don't want to earn a reputation of being lazy because nobody will talk to ya.
and GM would be able to build higher quality cars at a more competitive price.
It takes Premium Material and Engineering, and yes the UAW workers can build as good if not better cars than Toyota. Look at the Buick Lucerne, Buick Enclave, as reference points of just how good those UAW workers can build cars when management gives them the tools to do so.
The rest of your post we 100% agree
Rocky
P.S. I wasn't neccessarily trying to throw stink bombs, rather lit glade candles.
>serious "come to Jesus" talk with Japan and all of our trading partners
I really agree. But it's far too late. We've been sold down the river. Remember when Krueschev said they would take us without firing a shot? When you have marshmallows in the Presidency and Congress, this is what you get, along with borders where we're to blame for people dying in the desert as it gets hot this summer as they illegally come in (local paper article couple days ago-front page!!!!).
OTOH I agree that the unions have protected too many people too long against job responsibility. They didn't let management actually manage the workers.
However the management often would have wanted to fire people who spoke the truth rather than the unproductive workers, or they want to employ their relatives in the union jobs in advance of other qualitified applicants. So management is to blame here also.
I think it's past fixing. It has to be burned and a new foundation built and trees planted, etc., like an old house and barn.
IOW you're saying there will be settlement and concessions by both sides? That's good. Because a strike by Delphi is going to affect the economy and going to affect the foreign brands in re the parts they actually do buy from US suppliers including Delphi.
.. and you will find the story of a lady who has been with GM for almost all her working life working as a janitor. She has a union job, and is on first name basis with the GM leadership. Her salary: $74k per year.
I am all for good paying jobs, but $74k for being a janitor?
How much overtime did she work ? One helluva lot. GM has understaffed their janitors for years and they would rather pay overtime than hire a few extra. Sure it's alot of money, but how much would they have to pay for a contractor to come in and do the work.
.. a large part of this, but globally speaking, how can one expect to maintain these types of salaries and perks for what is essentially unskilled labour when we have hundred of millions who are working harder and are better and better educated as time goes by?
If R&D engineers are paid that much, then GM does value their efforts. Good for them! It is a pity that the end product is more affected by the bean counters than these obviously talented engineers.
Hmmm, interesting forum here, let me see now, $74K for a janitor with overtime? $674K for an engineer in R&D? Do you really believe that an engineer makes that much? And we all wonder why GM is in trouble?
Well for his first 6 months he sat in front of a computer because he was clueless, and it chapped people like my dads [non-permissible content removed] that he was make more than 12 times the money and contributed little for his very ridiculous salary. He had the best education mommy and daddy could buy. :surprise: Guess what he did. He quit after a year and landed another high paying job with Herman Miller. :confuse:
Yes, true... if you happen to buy a vehicle made here!!!!
But both GM and Ford have a stated strategy of moving OUT of the the US to Asia, Mexico and Europe. While Toyota is expanding here in this country with 3 new plants in the works GM is getting out of the way of the unions here as fast as it can. Ditto Ford and DC.
Yes if you buy a MI-made GM product you support US workers, but not the Aveo nor the Saab nor the Volvo nor the Fusion nor the PT Cruiser. AS long as you make sure that the vehicle you buy is actually made here then go and wave the flag. But it will be increasingly more difficult to find a US-made auto from a detroiter.
GM is larger here presently than Toyota is but as can be seen from it's own statements it intends to move many operations to China and other countries as fast as it can. You buy GM and you keep the Chinese, Mexicans and Aussies working. You are hiding your head in the sand if you don't see that GM has all it's bags packed and is just waiting for the moving van to come.
Trucks and SUV's are a different story for sure. But for autos just write a check to the Chinese/Mexican/Swedish consulate. It's the same difference.
Well, look it on the bright side. When we're a third world country, the jobs will come back. Those dang Chinese and Indians will make too much. The United States, (or whatever it will be then - Unemployed Slum of America?) will be the globe's source of cheap labor.
Read the content stickers. The tranny's have always been made in Japan and assembled here. That's the 20% that comes from Japan the other 80% comes from the US.
I have bought several cars, "American", "Japanese" and "German". (Please note the quotes since posters here have very strong opinions on this.)
My most recent "American" experience was a new Chevy Impala that I rented in Florida for a week. Overall, a pretty good car, especially for the money. However, it was definitely not upto "import" standards in terms of driving dynamics and quality of assembly.
My dad told me years and years ago: If one tries to be the very best, one has reasonable chance to be good enough to succeed. If one sets out to be "good enough" then one usually ends up at the end of the pack.
Maybe this is the basic difference in philosophy between the domestic nameplates and the import nameplates.
From my point of view, I love cars. I am thinking of buying a Corvette. However, the rest of the GM products are merely "good enough", and thus are towards the end of the pack in terms of overall desirability.
In today's world, if one is not the lead dog, the view never changes!
If one tries to be the very best, one has reasonable chance to be good enough to succeed. If one sets out to be "good enough" then one usually ends up at the end of the pack.
True! I always said that GM should quit selling cars and start building cars that sell themselves.
Did you not see the chart back in this very forum several months ago when we had this very same discussion and you brought up that very same statement. It's actually the US Dollar which has lost 75% of it's value against the Yen over the last 30 years specifically to encourage US exports and employement. Not the other way around.
Remember when you went off against the Fed Reserve when actually they were making you wealthier by keeping interest rates low. This make the US Dollar weaker and kept US workers employed at record levels while they ( the Fed Reserve ) manipulated the currency to keep imports out.
This is specifically why the Asians and Europeans began building plants here. The Fed forced them to do it with currency manipulation. That's the God's honest truth.
Well why is the media still reporting the opposite you claim. Lou Dobbs whom I have a great deal of faith in has said time and again that both the Chinese and Japanese have manipulated their currency. Hell the U.S. Government is doing an investigation into the deal as we speak.
...saying to some swine like that $400 million Exxon-Mobil dude, "See ya and I wouldn't want to be ya!" as a guillotine blade decends and lops off the corporate pig's fat head.
I agree pal. Maybe a return of Ross Perot, I think John Edwards would be a decent guy. But yeah we need a 3rd or 4th part to break out. Oh Well, maybe someday the average american like Joe Autoworker will get his voice heard. :sick:
GM never goes under. Forget that fear. It makes HUGE money on trucks and SUV's. They stay here and become more efficient under new rules in the next contract with the unions that's good.
Now auto manufacturing... except for the 'vette and Caddy's that's done, gone, cya, hasta la vista. Specialized electronic manufacturing has already been announced to be moved to Shanghai for all vehicles.
Wake up!!!! GM announced it already a few months ago.
This has nothing to do with Toyota or Honda or BMW. It is specifically GM moving it's operations out of the reach of the UAW and IBEW and Teamsters. Nothing else.
You can continue to blindly buy WalMart ( er, GM products ) - what irony - made by workers in Korea or China or from workers in TX or CA or IN or OH or KY or TN. It's your choice my friend.
Shall we begin to refer to you as lemko, the great supporter of the PRC? If you enjoy their products so much and enjoy supporting their workers and families then why not make additional donations to them? Shoot off an annual check to the Chinese consulate to autoworkers welfare fund. I'm sure it will be appreciated.
If GM is assembling cars in Mexico and Canada, yet still losing money, aren't they essentially subsidizing overseas jobs with american money? Isn't that the opposite of what you want, i.e. a profit while adding american jobs?
Why don't you look at how many GM vehicles are made with american parts vs. Toyota, Honda, or better yet lets see how many are assembled here vs both. Apples and Oranges :sick:
I was in the business for 20 yrs as a sole supplier to Ford, Chrysler and GM for many parts. Ok lets see who are some of the main suppliers to the transplants.
US Steel - prolly a US company Alcoa - prolly a US company GE Plastics - prolly a US company Goodyear, Delphi !!!!, - prolly US etc etc
I do understand your position. The transplants likely refuse to do business with your company ( UAW? ) so everything that they do is bad. But it's good for US Steel or GE or Alcoa.
Now you were saying how is this bad for our country?
Why are you blaming EXXON ? If people are willing to pay 3 bucks a gallon for gas then EXXON should charge 3 bucks a gallon. If you believe in capitalism and free market than you also should be a believer in profits. Now if more people moved away from full size SUVs and PUs and bought something more efficient, then gas prices would fall instantly. Someone who drives a Ford Excursion when something like a Ford Fusion would have been more than sufficient for his transportation needs has absolutely no right to complain about gas prices.
Well luckily most of my family is fixing to retire and will miss the shipwreck. If the Big 3 sell the workers down the river, I'm gonna tell em' good luck. Who's going to buy there cars, seriously. I'll refuse to even rent one if they become saturated with foreign parts. Hell ya might as well buy a Geely, Chery, Brickland at that point, right ?
At present Yes you are correct. But you've seen all the press releases, some of which you yourself have posted here. As a matter of fact when you posted the one about the electronics moving to Shanghai you yourself said something to the effect of 'That's it... I'm looking at American Toyota's, Acura's now'.
Just keep your eye on the ball. The detroiters have an exit strategy already in place in order to get out of the reach of the unions. They are not going to broadcast it at the Super Bowl but financial analysts and shareholders who will see the value of the stock rise with less costly labor are being briefed all the time. You and your family just aren't in the loop. I'll bet you that the leaders of the unions are in the loop though.
It's just curious why the Europeans and Canadians and Aussies get a free pass while anyone else is hit with bricks.... even if they employ Americans.
You don't see anything strange and coincidental in these viewpoints? Or do you ignore the common thread like you ignore that the detroiters are pulling the wool over your eyes by waving the flag - as they sneak out the back door.
I'd be PO'd if I spent all my time and emotion backing these guys as you and your fellow detroiter partisans do here, yet as you well know ( you've posted it ) they are leaving as fast as possible.
I support them because even as they off shore jobs, they still employ one helluva alot more people than the asians. If Honda and Toyota are such American company's why are they pulling the Wool over your eyes and building plants in China and a possible another one in Mexico. Some folks are blinded and think now all these cars are american made. I had one friend tell me his Acura RL was more american made than my Ford Mustang. I had another tell me his Lexus was more american made than My Dodge Pick-up. It goes to show you how uneducated and dumb many americans are. I also put alot of this blame on a president, and congress that's so incompetent that it's absolutely scary. They are more concerned with Barry Bonds then solving the trade deficit with China. These are the same idiots that want to give guest worker cards to these law breakers that populate 30% of our prision system and pay little or no taxes and still have the guts to march on my streets waving there foreign flag. :mad: 2008' Thankfully isn't very far away and just maybe this country and the auto-industry will be saved. As Bob Lutz said he's voting for Hillary. :mad:
The people that cross over illegally are not the same ones that are working legally at the auto plants in Mexico. In fact quite the to contrary, they're the ones that did *not* cross the border illegally.
Why does a Canadian deserve a job more than a law-abiding Mexican?
Note the irony, the jingle uses the term "Domesticated" in a derogatory manner.
Completely off topic, but did you know that SAB (South African Breweries) owns Miller Brewing now, and the only real "domestic" beer brand left is A-B? I believe Coors is Candian now (more irony).
Any how, I'm not a big fan of unions, and if you're going to ship jobs overseas, at least do so cost effectively. To me it makes more sense to send the work south.
Comments
That only happens when a plant is cutting back pal. It's hard to justify people standing around when your co-worker is running 3 machines or doing 3 jobs. This I will admit happened in the 80's. GM had more workers than jobs whenever a reccession hit, but actually now some plants are understaffed.
I would also like to be able to fire unproductive and disruptive workers without an act of Congress. Get rid of the union dead wood, keep the decent workers (with benefits!)
My family works at 3 GM/Delphi auto-plants and like I said above there isn't lazy workers anymore because the hard workers will "police" any slackers. Trust me you don't want to earn a reputation of being lazy because nobody will talk to ya.
and GM would be able to build higher quality cars at a more competitive price.
It takes Premium Material and Engineering, and yes the UAW workers can build as good if not better cars than Toyota. Look at the Buick Lucerne, Buick Enclave, as reference points of just how good those UAW workers can build cars when management gives them the tools to do so.
The rest of your post we 100% agree
Rocky
P.S. I wasn't neccessarily trying to throw stink bombs, rather lit glade candles.
I really agree. But it's far too late. We've been sold down the river. Remember when Krueschev said they would take us without firing a shot? When you have marshmallows in the Presidency and Congress, this is what you get, along with borders where we're to blame for people dying in the desert as it gets hot this summer as they illegally come in (local paper article couple days ago-front page!!!!).
OTOH I agree that the unions have protected too many people too long against job responsibility. They didn't let management actually manage the workers.
However the management often would have wanted to fire people who spoke the truth rather than the unproductive workers, or they want to employ their relatives in the union jobs in advance of other qualitified applicants. So management is to blame here also.
I think it's past fixing. It has to be burned and a new foundation built and trees planted, etc., like an old house and barn.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Rocky
I am all for good paying jobs, but $74k for being a janitor?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Rocky
I wonder how the engineers in the R&D departments feel about their payscales compared to these types of jobs?
Rocky
Rocky
GM goes under and 1,000,000 Americans lose their jobs.
Net loss: 700,000 jobs. Oh oh!!!
Guess what he did. He quit after a year and landed another high paying job with Herman Miller. :confuse:
Rocky
Rocky
But both GM and Ford have a stated strategy of moving OUT of the the US to Asia, Mexico and Europe. While Toyota is expanding here in this country with 3 new plants in the works GM is getting out of the way of the unions here as fast as it can. Ditto Ford and DC.
Yes if you buy a MI-made GM product you support US workers, but not the Aveo nor the Saab nor the Volvo nor the Fusion nor the PT Cruiser. AS long as you make sure that the vehicle you buy is actually made here then go and wave the flag. But it will be increasingly more difficult to find a US-made auto from a detroiter.
GM is larger here presently than Toyota is but as can be seen from it's own statements it intends to move many operations to China and other countries as fast as it can. You buy GM and you keep the Chinese, Mexicans and Aussies working. You are hiding your head in the sand if you don't see that GM has all it's bags packed and is just waiting for the moving van to come.
Trucks and SUV's are a different story for sure. But for autos just write a check to the Chinese/Mexican/Swedish consulate. It's the same difference.
Read the content stickers. The tranny's have always been made in Japan and assembled here. That's the 20% that comes from Japan the other 80% comes from the US.
My most recent "American" experience was a new Chevy Impala that I rented in Florida for a week. Overall, a pretty good car, especially for the money. However, it was definitely not upto "import" standards in terms of driving dynamics and quality of assembly.
My dad told me years and years ago: If one tries to be the very best, one has reasonable chance to be good enough to succeed. If one sets out to be "good enough" then one usually ends up at the end of the pack.
Maybe this is the basic difference in philosophy between the domestic nameplates and the import nameplates.
From my point of view, I love cars. I am thinking of buying a Corvette. However, the rest of the GM products are merely "good enough", and thus are towards the end of the pack in terms of overall desirability.
In today's world, if one is not the lead dog, the view never changes!
Rocky
But what are you going to do about it? Keep right on voting for the same duds that let the world run roughshod over us?
True! I always said that GM should quit selling cars and start building cars that sell themselves.
Check into the companies which are the suppliers. Are they US companies or are they controlled or setup by the foreign brands?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Shortterm memory loss?
Did you not see the chart back in this very forum several months ago when we had this very same discussion and you brought up that very same statement. It's actually the US Dollar which has lost 75% of it's value against the Yen over the last 30 years specifically to encourage US exports and employement. Not the other way around.
Remember when you went off against the Fed Reserve when actually they were making you wealthier by keeping interest rates low. This make the US Dollar weaker and kept US workers employed at record levels while they ( the Fed Reserve ) manipulated the currency to keep imports out.
This is specifically why the Asians and Europeans began building plants here. The Fed forced them to do it with currency manipulation. That's the God's honest truth.
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky
Now auto manufacturing... except for the 'vette and Caddy's that's done, gone, cya, hasta la vista. Specialized electronic manufacturing has already been announced to be moved to Shanghai for all vehicles.
Wake up!!!! GM announced it already a few months ago.
This has nothing to do with Toyota or Honda or BMW. It is specifically GM moving it's operations out of the reach of the UAW and IBEW and Teamsters. Nothing else.
You can continue to blindly buy WalMart ( er, GM products ) - what irony - made by workers in Korea or China or from workers in TX or CA or IN or OH or KY or TN. It's your choice my friend.
Shall we begin to refer to you as lemko, the great supporter of the PRC? If you enjoy their products so much and enjoy supporting their workers and families then why not make additional donations to them? Shoot off an annual check to the Chinese consulate to autoworkers welfare fund. I'm sure it will be appreciated.
If GM is assembling cars in Mexico and Canada, yet still losing money, aren't they essentially subsidizing overseas jobs with american money? Isn't that the opposite of what you want, i.e. a profit while adding american jobs?
Flame suit on.
-juice
Rocky
US Steel - prolly a US company
Alcoa - prolly a US company
GE Plastics - prolly a US company
Goodyear, Delphi !!!!, - prolly US
etc etc
I do understand your position. The transplants likely refuse to do business with your company ( UAW? ) so everything that they do is bad. But it's good for US Steel or GE or Alcoa.
Now you were saying how is this bad for our country?
#1 Johnson Controls many of which are UAW
Gentex, Donelly, Transmatic, Pullman Industry's, Light Metals, Eaton, etc etc etc
Rocky
Rocky
Just keep your eye on the ball. The detroiters have an exit strategy already in place in order to get out of the reach of the unions. They are not going to broadcast it at the Super Bowl but financial analysts and shareholders who will see the value of the stock rise with less costly labor are being briefed all the time. You and your family just aren't in the loop. I'll bet you that the leaders of the unions are in the loop though.
:confuse:
Rocky
You don't see anything strange and coincidental in these viewpoints? Or do you ignore the common thread like you ignore that the detroiters are pulling the wool over your eyes by waving the flag - as they sneak out the back door.
I'd be PO'd if I spent all my time and emotion backing these guys as you and your fellow detroiter partisans do here, yet as you well know ( you've posted it ) they are leaving as fast as possible.
Why do you continue to support them?
Rocky
Why does a Canadian deserve a job more than a law-abiding Mexican?
I don't think your argument holds up to scrutiny.
-juice
Completely off topic, but did you know that SAB (South African Breweries) owns Miller Brewing now, and the only real "domestic" beer brand left is A-B? I believe Coors is Candian now (more irony).
-juice
Oh, c'mon juice, that's easy!
The Canadian one is in a Union, the Mexican one is not. Haven't you been keeping up?
So, in other words, the only reason to buy the Big 3 is because the use Union labor, NOT because they offer a competitive product?
Any how, I'm not a big fan of unions, and if you're going to ship jobs overseas, at least do so cost effectively. To me it makes more sense to send the work south.
Nothing against the Canucks. I love Moosehead.
Every beer man has his once in a while beer,
and once in a while is enough.
Every beer man has his day after day beer,
and day after day, it's Domesticated stuuuuff
OOOOOOH
Out of the wilderness, north of the border,
Comes a Beer for America, made to ordeeeeeeer.
And ever BEER MAN!
With a Moosehead in his haaaaaand,
Is gonna be a Moosehead man for life!
(All brand importers, Hartford CT)
A Moosehead Man, FOR LIFE!
Cheers. :shades:
-juice
Problem is, I prefer Mexican beers (Dos Equis Amber or Negra Modelo) when I'm not drinking my Shiner Bock. And Sam Adams is EXCELLENT!
Now, go wipe the beer foam off the tip of your nose....
Remember, they market their beer as better than the "domesticated stuff" brewed in the USA.
Why do the Canadians get a red carpet? Seems the cheap Mexican labor could do more to help the americans. :confuse:
-juice