"I don't think its even POSSIBLE to kill a Honda or Toyota motor before 200K miles."
Eh, Tercel engines were somewhat underdesigned and tend to burn oil around 100k if they haven't had their oil changed regularly. Almost any engine will do that, I suppose, but it's not like other Toyota engines that you can abuse without repercussions. I don't think my family's Tercel will make it to 200k.
But during its prime, it was a better car than any of its direct competition. Good value for a car built in a high-cost country (if Japan can do it, why can't we?)
The 3.0l V6 came in a few Lexus models, RX and ES off the top of my head.
Bobistheoilguy had pics up of engines with not that many miles on them with evidence of sludge, I don't think Toyota can pin the blame entirely on maintenance. One mag had an article about how the oil change temps rapidly in the heads, something like that, and that was their opinion on why the engine was prone to sludge.
Any how, water under the bridge, but nobody's perfect.
If GM and Ford went out of business Toyota and Honda would fill the void by employing those laid off by expanding its operations in the US and produce cars we actually want.
Its unamerican to support companies that do not give the customers what they want.
A mechanic said using an infrared temp gun there are hot spots in the heads and that cooks the oil deteriorating it faster. Leave it in longer than 3-5K for those 7-10K miles for oil changes and you're running on cooked, ruined oil that sludges. Change it often and early and the problem didn't manifest itself.
Yes it is. I managed to be poor and lazy at the same time. Now, to be strictly accurate, it was burning a quart every 500 miles so the oil itself was "cycled" about 3-4 times a year. The crud in the bottom of the oilpan was thicker than asphalt, no doubt.
LOL, I forget how much the replacement engine cost him like $6 or $7K and they did give him a break on labor. This was back in 96' or 97' I believe, I remember how ferious he was when his engine quit. We weren't great friends but did see each other once in a while. My buddy Brad laughed at him and it was salt in the wound. Brad of course owned a M3 Sedan.
You've never heard of the famous 4c Toyota truck engines from about 92 onward. Many ( most? ) are still on the road. I see them every day. The body will turn to dust before anything but wear items give way.
Well it doesnt seem to me like youve heard of the 4.2, then downsized to 4.0 L inline six used by Jeep since the 60's. Unless the engine is abused, those will run forever, I've had a lot of experience with those engines in cars with over 200,000 miles.
I've had four 4c Camry's since 1989. At 30000-40000 miles annually none has ever had even one repair... for anything... not a dime! YMMV
30,000-40,000 miles is not very much to go without having to be repaired.
I don't think its even POSSIBLE to kill a Honda or Toyota motor before 200K miles. I would bet a months salary you could drag race 200K miles with the throttle floored, the pedal to the metal, and still get 200K miles from any Toyota or Honda motor.
Well if its impossible, how do you explain a Celica going through 2 engines in 200,000 miles, another one going thru an engine in 100,000, and a Corolla going thru one in 100,000?
Parking brake cable breaking and mirror falling off, icing on the cake
Haha. This reminds me of a 1996 Toyota I had. The rearview mirror broke apart in my hand, and whenever I take something out of the cigarette lighter, like a charger, the whole cigarette lighter assembly pulls out with it. Add to that the rattle from plastic pieces that don't fit well anymore. Ahhhhhh, famous quality Toyota interiors, gotta love em.
All those sound like many foreign cars as opposed to American brands. Where do you get your info?
I can talk about a friend's Legend by "Honda" that had a simple trans problem a small part to be replaced for $2500. Air conditioner failure-$5000? That was a few years back but we have to learn from the past, right?
Then there's my neighbor across the road with 3 3.5 RL and one Integra and his maintenance costs when they hit those major replacement parts. Of course he buys used because they are greatly reduced in price after a year of two because of the depreciation hit they take.
>riddled with design defects and flaws. >Buying expensive and costly time consuming repairs and repair bills. >Buying expensive and costly time consuming repairs and repair bills. >getting poor gas mileage with poor performance on top of it.
To me, buying American means buying a car with few design defects and flaws.
Buying extremely beautiful styling and awesome performance
Buying reliability and bulletproof durability. Buying cheap and easy service and repair bills.
Buying American means buying a car designed to last about 24 years or 150K+ miles, and having to make a deliberate attempt to kill the car if I want to be rid of it.
Buying American means getting phenomenal gas mileage while hardly sacrificing anything in terms of comfort and performance.
Buying American also ensures me that my fellow citizen will be able to afford a decent standard of living and not fall into a life of poverty and become wards of the taxpayer.
Buying American ensures me that my community can maintain a strong tax base to provide good fire, police, garbage collection, and other city services.
Buying American ensures me that my community won't become an unlivable crime-infested ghetto as my neighbors won't become destitute, despondent, and desperate.
Buying American ensures me that my country stays strong both economically and militarily and protects my family, friends, neighbors, fellow citizens, and myself from enemies both foreign and domestic.
Are you really that far out of touch with reality? Alot of the domestics aren't that bad. There are a few bad apples out there, but even those aren't going to meet your agenda.
I sense a hint of sarcasm and posts that are quite over-dramatic... Or you could just be THAT much of a fanatic :confuse:
Nope. Just an awesome 1989 Cadillac Brougham that still looks and runs excellent after 17 years and 156K+ miles. My 1988 Buick Park Avenue seems to be on its way to matching that feat. My 1968 Buick Special Deluxe, my first car, did it. My brother still has my old 1985 Chrysler Fifth Avenue with over 235K+ on it.
Buying American also ensures me that my fellow citizen will be able to afford a decent standard of living and not fall into a life of poverty and become wards of the taxpayer.
Buying American ensures me that my community can maintain a strong tax base to provide good fire, police, garbage collection, and other city services.
Buying American ensures me that my community won't become an unlivable crime-infested ghetto as my neighbors won't become destitute, despondent, and desperate.
Buying American ensures me that my country stays strong both economically and militarily and protects my family, friends, neighbors, fellow citizens, and myself from enemies both foreign and domestic
This means of course ignoring GM's move to China and Ford's move to Mexico. Correct?
I know that doesn't count. The three detroit nameplates can do what they like.... because they are based in Detroit. Curious logic.
Not supporting companies that actually employ your fellow citizens while standing blindly behind companies that increase the standard of living in Korea and China and Mexico kinda puts your entire way of thinking in the spotlight.
You can like the products you drive. But please don't waive the flag over companies which are already on the way out the door here. It makes you look silly.... and naive.
I think you've been drinking too much of the import Kool-aid. Keep away from that stuff for a while.
First off, American brands beat European brands on average reliability, so right there your generalization is entirely wrong.
Fact is, the differences nowadays are pretty minor.
Buying American means getting poor gas mileage with poor performance on top of it
What did that Corvette in Autoweek get for MPG for that road trip on Earth Day? Mid 20s mpg, something like that? Not bad. Name one import that can match its performance and even come close to that fuel economy.
You know, Andreas has a good point. American badges have better reliability than European. If we're going to bash cars, let's get the pecking order right: Asian, American, European. That's right, reliability in the Honda, Hyundai, and Toyota are better than BMW, MB, and Audi. I'm rooting for the American makers, but they need to quit trying to sell cars and start making cars that sell themselves.
Means my 1998 leSabre with 140K miles owes me nothing. It's given 22-24 mpg in home driving and 30+ on highway driving with smooth, stable ride and large room comfort!!! Try that in your 98 Accord.
Means I just had a 2nd problem with the car. Major crisis. I'll have to run out and buy a copy of CR to see if they included this. A starter failed. Actually the solenoid went out. Even the guy at the rebuild place didn't believe the solenoid failed. Usually it's a ground problem rather than starter. The starters don't fail until 200k.
I bought a starter rebuilt here in my home town rather than a big box remanufactured starter from somewhere else, US or otherwise!!! I saw the guys working at the bench rebuilding the electrics.
Means my car owes me nothing!!! AFter 135K miles I'm happy. I didn't have to wait for the starter to be imported from Japan because it's out of stock in 'local' US warehouses, e.g., as coworkers have done in the past.
Yup, I'll have to call CR so they can add this to the flaws in the US cars in the next issue. I can hear the receptionist, "Oh please hold. I know they'll want to get your info on the US brand car for our data."
I was recently chastized by a friend (GM employee) for buying a Scion. I was then quick to point out that the GM Tracker he just sold was just as Japenese and the Equinox he bought was built in Canada and had a Chinese engine in it. In one and the same breath, GM announced massive plant closings in the US and a billion $ investment in a NEW plant in Mexico (paying Mexican taxes as well as Mexican construction and auto workers). So, tell me again, just what is a domestic car company and show me an example.
The first myth we must dissolve in this conversation is that there is still an American Big Three. Get over it! Chrysler is a FOREIGN car company! As for the other 2, I would be willing to bet that they are nearing the point where more of there vehicles are built outside of the us than in.
They are now global (not domestic) companies and must compete with product rather than flag waving. When their product matches their vibrato, I'll buy Chevy's instead of Scions.
"Yup, I'll have to call CR so they can add this to the flaws in the US cars in the next issue. I can hear the receptionist"
Have you actually read a CR? Buick always does very well in reliability surveys. I've always seen it alongside Lexus on reliability lists... but its domestic bretheren haven't followed it up to the top of the lists. It's also no secret that domestics are easier to fix.
But as a whole, domestics haven't been as reliable, and they've been as bland as bland can be.
Lemko...... what you fail to mention regarding those Cadillacs and Buicks is critical. How much did it cost you to keep that Brougham running 17 years? How much did it cost you to keep that 88 Park Avenue running for almost 150K miles? How much did your first Buick cost you in repairs? How much has your brother spent keeping that fifth avenue running for 235K miles?
Anyone can keep a lemon running forever, it just takes money, time, patience, and a good (and very happily rich) mechanic.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
I'm not convinced the Americans are doing better than the Europeans reliability wise.
I believe the Americans go from miserable, to terrible, to downright unacceptable, and have a few reliable cars thrown in to the mix. So overall, they are poor in reliability.
The Germans have a few bad apples, which bring the ratings WAY down. But overall, most of the German models are stellar, and show that through high resale value. I believe resale value and dependability are VERY closely tied together and strongly correlated.
Take out the Mexican Jetta, and the half americanized MB cars, and the Germans are doing much better than the Americans reliability wise.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
For months it's been shown that any transplant does 10 times more for the US than any purported profit the Detroiters might make from plants in Mexico and Sweden and Korea.
How can you still believe that a Volvo does more for the US than an Altima made in TN? It's ludicrous that you can still believe it. That is unless you just want to ignore how $15000 kept in the US is better than $1500 'profit' repatriated.
Loyalty is one thing but blind acceptance of disproven myths which actually hurt the US is just wrong.
>Take out the Mexican Jetta, and the half americanized MB cars, and the Germans are doing much better than the Americans reliability wise.
Why take them out. They're being sold by those companies...
As for American cars as some have said perception is difficult to change. It's all in the advertising and posturing in re many brands. OTOH just as you've have few problems with your car many have had few problems with American brands. But perception from the 70s and 80s is difficult to change. The foreign brands from those eras weren't as dependable as US brands. My college roommate of one year or less had to adjust his valves on his way home to The Region in Northern Indiana every trip. Not dependable.
So throw out the stories of this and that failure and there are many to be told from the foreign brands as well. It's a lot in the attitude of the ownership and the owner.
What is the net worth of Bill Ford, Jr? Seriously? Are you really concerned that he make his 14th Billion? Is 13 billion (whatever amount he has) not enough?
Heck, they're not making a profit anyway! Your taxes will probably eventually bail them out.
I'd much, much rather have my money pay for salaries of middle-class blue collar workers that build a Subaru in Indiana, or a Honda in Ohio, or a Camry in Kentucky. You're helping the livelihood of hundreds of American families.
Profits represent just a few dollars per car, but wages for these salaries represent a whole lot more, especially when you include all the tiers of suppliers.
For months it's been shown that any transplant does 10 times more for the US than any purported profit the Detroiters might make from plants in Mexico and Sweden and Korea.
How can you still believe that a Volvo does more for the US than an Altima made in TN? It's ludicrous that you can still believe it. That is unless you just want to ignore how $15000 kept in the US is better than $1500 'profit' repatriated.
Loyalty is one thing but blind acceptance of disproven myths which actually hurt the US is just wrong.
Mr. Spyder, I think that we must come to the realization that some folks are simply using the car issue as a proxy for extending the Second World War into the 21st century. For them, the issue isn't whether Americans gain employment or get products that they want, but whether the Japanese stand to gain a single cent from their efforts here.
For them, any benefit received by Americans is completely offset by the relatively small proportion of funds that end up abroad. They don't want us to win, they just want the other guy to lose.
How much? Virtually nothing outside of oil and fluid changes and usual consumbles such as brake pads and hoses. Oh, I did have to recharge the A/C on the Park Ave. Cost me all of $90. My brother is a mega-cheapskate when it comes to cars. I doubt bro put much into my old Chrysler.
I have exponentially low tolerance for problems. A burned-out bulb will drive me bananas and I will obsess about it until it is replaced. A small problem gets my immediate attention. I will drop everything to have it taken care of before anything else. Maintenance is performed on or before its due date. I keep meticulous records.
My first Buick cost me virtually nothing as well which is good because I was a poor high school student. I could perform all the repairs myself, parts were cheap and easy to find. Repairs were a snap. I wish all of today's cars were as beautiful in their simplicity as that Buick. I have a B&W picture of that car in a nice metal frame in my den.
What profit? The domestics have been consistently losing money building cars and trucks for years (probably decades by now), and those losses have finally become large enough to overwhelm the profits that the financial arms had been bringing in.
The "end profit" from the sale price of a Camry that makes it into Toyota's money bin back in Japan is a pittance compared to the cost of wages paid to US assemblers and cost of parts made in the US. A Camry or Sonata puts many more dollars into the US economy than a Mexican-built Fusion or Canadian-built LaCrosse.
This profit staying in the U.S. drives me crazy. Unless you have a ton of stock, do you really care? The top executives are the only ones who profit big time. Billions and Billions of dollars in oil profits are staying in the U.S. yet we scream bloody murder over those! There's no winning this fight.
andres: The Germans have a few bad apples, which bring the ratings WAY down. But overall, most of the German models are stellar, and show that through high resale value. I believe resale value and dependability are VERY closely tied together and strongly correlated.
"Stellar" is the last word I'd use to describe the reliability of German cars. With few exceptions, their scores range from "fair" to "poor" in most surveys (J.D. Powers, Consumer Reports) I've seen. And that goes for the ones built in Germany, too. Check out the reliability ratings of the Mercedes E- and S-Classes, and the BMW 7-Series.
These lackluster scores have been noted in European surveys, too, by the British magazines Car and Top Gear. One of them (I believe it was Top Gear) even did a story on the decline in the reliability of German cars.
So it isn't that Americans don't know how to maintain their German cars.
No, German cars are NOT more reliable than American ones.
As for the good resale value of German cars - that is due to status and the fact that their reputation hasn't caught up with them yet. Everyone I've known who bought a used German car eventually regretted it (even if they loved the way the car drove).
When it comes to reliability, the Germans have been living off their reputation for some time.
Okay, so how many self-help do-it-yourself repairs did you perform. Just because the repairs were easy, and you did them yourself, doesn't mean it was free to perform the repairs.
What was the lost time worth? the opportunity cost of time is important to consider, and although parts may be cheap and easy to find, they are not free.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Well, I'll back Lemko's claim that he had good luck with his domestic vehicles (Please don't fall off your chair Lemko). I know many people that have gone well into the 150k mile range w/o many issues.
That said, the opposite is also true. My dad has my Grandpa's '00 Park Ave, (Grandpa's still with us, but his driving days are long gone) and between 60k-80k miles it required about $3000 worth of repairs, ranging from the head gaskets, intake manifold, alternator, windshield wiper motor, multiple gauge cluster malfunctions, and a fuel pump. And grandpa always took exceptional care of his cars. His previous'97 Park Ave also had a bunch of issues.
My complaints regarding GM's mainstream vehicles is I've yet to drive one that would motivate me to buy it. Just to many other choices that better meet my tastes.
This means of course ignoring GM's move to China and Ford's move to Mexico. Correct?
I know that doesn't count. The three detroit nameplates can do what they like.... because they are based in Detroit. Curious logic.
Not supporting companies that actually employ your fellow citizens while standing blindly behind companies that increase the standard of living in Korea and China and Mexico kinda puts your entire way of thinking in the spotlight.
You can like the products you drive. But please don't waive the flag over companies which are already on the way out the door here. It makes you look silly.... and naive
Even with their move to these places for some parts, they still provide MANY more jobs and economic support than foreign companies. Toyota likes to brag about the fact that it provides something like 300,000 jobs in America. Well guess what, GM provides over a million. So when you buy Toyota, you support those 300,000, but when you buy GM, you are supporting over a million of your fellow Americans.
Even with their move to these places for some parts, they still provide MANY more jobs and economic support than foreign companies. Toyota likes to brag about the fact that it provides something like 300,000 jobs in America. Well guess what, GM provides over a million. So when you buy Toyota, you support those 300,000, but when you buy GM, you are supporting over a million of your fellow Americans.
Now that is exactly right !!!! :mad: I'm sick and tired of some of you waving the American flag over over your Japanese car and spitting more false propoganda then Mussolini. :mad: The Japanese car company's still assemble, and buy plenty of foreign sourced car parts. Ya'll brag about the Camry being made in Kentucky and has 80% domestic content. Name me the Lexus cars made here in the United States :mad:
Honda/Acura makes a few cars here and the Germans make a couple. The bottom line is the domestic auto-manufactors provide millions of jobs and buy more parts from american company's than the foreign trans-plants :mad: Ya'll can buy what ya want and sure I'm happy those foreign nameplates are providing jobs. OTOH the success of these foreign nameplates because of a unfair, uneven, trade policy we are losing more automobile jobs than the Japanese are replacing. :sick: :mad:
It sounds to me like the Toyota new wunderkind 6-speed auto in their v6 is assembled in Japan for all Toyotas. More proof that they may build them (Camry) here but the supply parts are Japanese or Japanese-related companies based here as suppliers!
So much for the American jobs, ehhhh?
I wonder how Japan handles American companies building cars in Japan and using imported American parts but bragging that they build them in Japan. Oh, I forgot, Japan has always made it _extremely_ difficult for US to sell or compete _in_ Japan. But I guess we ought to support the Japanese in their efforts to spread equality around the world? grin. grin. grin.
Thank-you pal. You said it best. The fact remains this....If GM didn't have to compete against a currency that is undervalued at 30%, their workers here in the U.S. were paid a fair wage with good medical benefits and retirements, and our government didn't give them free taxes (local, state, federal) GM would beable to compete on a level playing field. Everyone wants to abolish the evil unions for winning benefits for their members. Instead of lowering the wages and standard of living in this country, why does the wealthy toyota step up to the plate and offer equal compensation and PROVE to the whole world just how american they really are without all the lip-service. If The transplants did that they would have my respect and blessings to do buisness in my country. At the end of the day they whip GM's butt and send them to Bankruptcy I wouldn't feel sorry for GM and the UAW. :mad:
OTOH The trade issue of us not being able to go to Japan and compete is very ridiculous :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
Rocky
P.S.
Great Post Pal. You hit the nail square on the head !!!!
Everyone wants to abolish the evil unions for winning benefits for their members.
Simply not true! Quit throwing stink bombs rockylee.
In fact, probably quite the opposite is true. I don't think anyone has anything against unions winning reasonable benefits. That's not what's wrong with unions! What I WOULD like to abolish is union "welfare" recipients standing around the shops all day doing practically nothing. I would also like to be able to fire unproductive and disruptive workers without an act of Congress. Get rid of the union dead wood, keep the decent workers (with benefits!) and GM would be able to build higher quality cars at a more competitive price.
You guys are exactly right about the level playing field, however. We need to have a serious "come to Jesus" talk with Japan and all of our trading partners while we still have the leverage to do so. We're letting our trading partners run roughshod over us. Short term, it costs jobs. Long term, it will turn us into a 3rd world country.
Comments
Rocky
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Eh, Tercel engines were somewhat underdesigned and tend to burn oil around 100k if they haven't had their oil changed regularly. Almost any engine will do that, I suppose, but it's not like other Toyota engines that you can abuse without repercussions. I don't think my family's Tercel will make it to 200k.
But during its prime, it was a better car than any of its direct competition. Good value for a car built in a high-cost country (if Japan can do it, why can't we?)
http://www.carspace.com/rockylee
Rocky
I have never even heard of any Lexus with a blown engine.
Especially the 90-94 LS 400's - overengineered to the point of never quitting.
Especially the 90-94 LS 400's - overengineered to the point of never quitting.
Well tell my buddy that....I'd reccommend a kevalar vest.
Rocky
Bobistheoilguy had pics up of engines with not that many miles on them with evidence of sludge, I don't think Toyota can pin the blame entirely on maintenance. One mag had an article about how the oil change temps rapidly in the heads, something like that, and that was their opinion on why the engine was prone to sludge.
Any how, water under the bridge, but nobody's perfect.
6 years no oil changes? That's crazy! :surprise:
-juice
Its unamerican to support companies that do not give the customers what they want.
Mr Fezziwig,
Green Cars Now
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Yes it is. I managed to be poor and lazy at the same time. Now, to be strictly accurate, it was burning a quart every 500 miles so the oil itself was "cycled" about 3-4 times a year. The crud in the bottom of the oilpan was thicker than asphalt, no doubt.
My health insurance policy clearly dictates I don't argue with people in posession of firearms.... :P
Rocky
Well it doesnt seem to me like youve heard of the 4.2, then downsized to 4.0 L inline six used by Jeep since the 60's. Unless the engine is abused, those will run forever, I've had a lot of experience with those engines in cars with over 200,000 miles.
I've had four 4c Camry's since 1989. At 30000-40000 miles annually none has ever had even one repair... for anything... not a dime! YMMV
30,000-40,000 miles is not very much to go without having to be repaired.
Well if its impossible, how do you explain a Celica going through 2 engines in 200,000 miles, another one going thru an engine in 100,000, and a Corolla going thru one in 100,000?
Haha. This reminds me of a 1996 Toyota I had. The rearview mirror broke apart in my hand, and whenever I take something out of the cigarette lighter, like a charger, the whole cigarette lighter assembly pulls out with it. Add to that the rattle from plastic pieces that don't fit well anymore. Ahhhhhh, famous quality Toyota interiors, gotta love em.
That's 30,000 - 40,000 miles annually for 3-5 years for each vehicle.. zero repairs. 500,000+ miles.
I was a sole supplier to Jeep/Toledo for 10 yrs. I am slightly aware of the vehicles there.
Buying problems and breakdowns. Buying expensive and costly time consuming repairs and repair bills.
Buying American means buying a car designed to last about 3 years or 36,000 miles, and then fall apart and go to hell immediately thereafter.
Buying American means getting poor gas mileage with poor performance on top of it.
I can talk about a friend's Legend by "Honda" that had a simple trans problem a small part to be replaced for $2500. Air conditioner failure-$5000? That was a few years back but we have to learn from the past, right?
Then there's my neighbor across the road with 3 3.5 RL and one Integra and his maintenance costs when they hit those major replacement parts. Of course he buys used because they are greatly reduced in price after a year of two because of the depreciation hit they take.
>riddled with design defects and flaws.
>Buying expensive and costly time consuming repairs and repair bills.
>Buying expensive and costly time consuming repairs and repair bills.
>getting poor gas mileage with poor performance on top of it.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Buying extremely beautiful styling and awesome performance
Buying reliability and bulletproof durability. Buying cheap and easy service and repair bills.
Buying American means buying a car designed to last about 24 years or 150K+ miles, and having to make a deliberate attempt to kill the car if I want to be rid of it.
Buying American means getting phenomenal gas mileage while hardly sacrificing anything in terms of comfort and performance.
Buying American also ensures me that my fellow citizen will be able to afford a decent standard of living and not fall into a life of poverty and become wards of the taxpayer.
Buying American ensures me that my community can maintain a strong tax base to provide good fire, police, garbage collection, and other city services.
Buying American ensures me that my community won't become an unlivable crime-infested ghetto as my neighbors won't become destitute, despondent, and desperate.
Buying American ensures me that my country stays strong both economically and militarily and protects my family, friends, neighbors, fellow citizens, and myself from enemies both foreign and domestic.
Sounds like you bought an American made Camry..... :P
I sense a hint of sarcasm and posts that are quite over-dramatic... Or you could just be THAT much of a fanatic :confuse:
Buying American ensures me that my community can maintain a strong tax base to provide good fire, police, garbage collection, and other city services.
Buying American ensures me that my community won't become an unlivable crime-infested ghetto as my neighbors won't become destitute, despondent, and desperate.
Buying American ensures me that my country stays strong both economically and militarily and protects my family, friends, neighbors, fellow citizens, and myself from enemies both foreign and domestic
This means of course ignoring GM's move to China and Ford's move to Mexico. Correct?
I know that doesn't count. The three detroit nameplates can do what they like.... because they are based in Detroit. Curious logic.
Not supporting companies that actually employ your fellow citizens while standing blindly behind companies that increase the standard of living in Korea and China and Mexico kinda puts your entire way of thinking in the spotlight.
You can like the products you drive. But please don't waive the flag over companies which are already on the way out the door here. It makes you look silly.... and naive.
I think you've been drinking too much of the import Kool-aid. Keep away from that stuff for a while.
First off, American brands beat European brands on average reliability, so right there your generalization is entirely wrong.
Fact is, the differences nowadays are pretty minor.
Buying American means getting poor gas mileage with poor performance on top of it
What did that Corvette in Autoweek get for MPG for that road trip on Earth Day? Mid 20s mpg, something like that? Not bad. Name one import that can match its performance and even come close to that fuel economy.
-juice
Means I just had a 2nd problem with the car. Major crisis. I'll have to run out and buy a copy of CR to see if they included this. A starter failed. Actually the solenoid went out. Even the guy at the rebuild place didn't believe the solenoid failed. Usually it's a ground problem rather than starter. The starters don't fail until 200k.
I bought a starter rebuilt here in my home town rather than a big box remanufactured starter from somewhere else, US or otherwise!!! I saw the guys working at the bench rebuilding the electrics.
Means my car owes me nothing!!! AFter 135K miles I'm happy. I didn't have to wait for the starter to be imported from Japan because it's out of stock in 'local' US warehouses, e.g., as coworkers have done in the past.
Yup, I'll have to call CR so they can add this to the flaws in the US cars in the next issue. I can hear the receptionist, "Oh please hold. I know they'll want to get your info on the US brand car for our data."
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The first myth we must dissolve in this conversation is that there is still an American Big Three. Get over it! Chrysler is a FOREIGN car company! As for the other 2, I would be willing to bet that they are nearing the point where more of there vehicles are built outside of the us than in.
They are now global (not domestic) companies and must compete with product rather than flag waving. When their product matches their vibrato, I'll buy Chevy's instead of Scions.
.... other than not being built by the UAW of course.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Have you actually read a CR? Buick always does very well in reliability surveys. I've always seen it alongside Lexus on reliability lists... but its domestic bretheren haven't followed it up to the top of the lists. It's also no secret that domestics are easier to fix.
But as a whole, domestics haven't been as reliable, and they've been as bland as bland can be.
Anyone can keep a lemon running forever, it just takes money, time, patience, and a good (and very happily rich) mechanic.
I believe the Americans go from miserable, to terrible, to downright unacceptable, and have a few reliable cars thrown in to the mix. So overall, they are poor in reliability.
The Germans have a few bad apples, which bring the ratings WAY down. But overall, most of the German models are stellar, and show that through high resale value. I believe resale value and dependability are VERY closely tied together and strongly correlated.
Take out the Mexican Jetta, and the half americanized MB cars, and the Germans are doing much better than the Americans reliability wise.
For months it's been shown that any transplant does 10 times more for the US than any purported profit the Detroiters might make from plants in Mexico and Sweden and Korea.
How can you still believe that a Volvo does more for the US than an Altima made in TN? It's ludicrous that you can still believe it. That is unless you just want to ignore how $15000 kept in the US is better than $1500 'profit' repatriated.
Loyalty is one thing but blind acceptance of disproven myths which actually hurt the US is just wrong.
Why take them out. They're being sold by those companies...
As for American cars as some have said perception is difficult to change. It's all in the advertising and posturing in re many brands. OTOH just as you've have few problems with your car many have had few problems with American brands. But perception from the 70s and 80s is difficult to change. The foreign brands from those eras weren't as dependable as US brands. My college roommate of one year or less had to adjust his valves on his way home to The Region in Northern Indiana every trip. Not dependable.
So throw out the stories of this and that failure and there are many to be told from the foreign brands as well. It's a lot in the attitude of the ownership and the owner.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Heck, they're not making a profit anyway! Your taxes will probably eventually bail them out.
I'd much, much rather have my money pay for salaries of middle-class blue collar workers that build a Subaru in Indiana, or a Honda in Ohio, or a Camry in Kentucky. You're helping the livelihood of hundreds of American families.
Profits represent just a few dollars per car, but wages for these salaries represent a whole lot more, especially when you include all the tiers of suppliers.
-juice
For months it's been shown that any transplant does 10 times more for the US than any purported profit the Detroiters might make from plants in Mexico and Sweden and Korea.
How can you still believe that a Volvo does more for the US than an Altima made in TN? It's ludicrous that you can still believe it. That is unless you just want to ignore how $15000 kept in the US is better than $1500 'profit' repatriated.
Loyalty is one thing but blind acceptance of disproven myths which actually hurt the US is just wrong.
Mr. Spyder, I think that we must come to the realization that some folks are simply using the car issue as a proxy for extending the Second World War into the 21st century. For them, the issue isn't whether Americans gain employment or get products that they want, but whether the Japanese stand to gain a single cent from their efforts here.
For them, any benefit received by Americans is completely offset by the relatively small proportion of funds that end up abroad. They don't want us to win, they just want the other guy to lose.
I have exponentially low tolerance for problems. A burned-out bulb will drive me bananas and I will obsess about it until it is replaced. A small problem gets my immediate attention. I will drop everything to have it taken care of before anything else. Maintenance is performed on or before its due date. I keep meticulous records.
My first Buick cost me virtually nothing as well which is good because I was a poor high school student. I could perform all the repairs myself, parts were cheap and easy to find. Repairs were a snap. I wish all of today's cars were as beautiful in their simplicity as that Buick. I have a B&W picture of that car in a nice metal frame in my den.
The "end profit" from the sale price of a Camry that makes it into Toyota's money bin back in Japan is a pittance compared to the cost of wages paid to US assemblers and cost of parts made in the US. A Camry or Sonata puts many more dollars into the US economy than a Mexican-built Fusion or Canadian-built LaCrosse.
"Stellar" is the last word I'd use to describe the reliability of German cars. With few exceptions, their scores range from "fair" to "poor" in most surveys (J.D. Powers, Consumer Reports) I've seen. And that goes for the ones built in Germany, too. Check out the reliability ratings of the Mercedes E- and S-Classes, and the BMW 7-Series.
These lackluster scores have been noted in European surveys, too, by the British magazines Car and Top Gear. One of them (I believe it was Top Gear) even did a story on the decline in the reliability of German cars.
So it isn't that Americans don't know how to maintain their German cars.
No, German cars are NOT more reliable than American ones.
As for the good resale value of German cars - that is due to status and the fact that their reputation hasn't caught up with them yet. Everyone I've known who bought a used German car eventually regretted it (even if they loved the way the car drove).
When it comes to reliability, the Germans have been living off their reputation for some time.
What was the lost time worth? the opportunity cost of time is important to consider, and although parts may be cheap and easy to find, they are not free.
That said, the opposite is also true. My dad has my Grandpa's '00 Park Ave, (Grandpa's still with us, but his driving days are long gone) and between 60k-80k miles it required about $3000 worth of repairs, ranging from the head gaskets, intake manifold, alternator, windshield wiper motor, multiple gauge cluster malfunctions, and a fuel pump. And grandpa always took exceptional care of his cars. His previous'97 Park Ave also had a bunch of issues.
My complaints regarding GM's mainstream vehicles is I've yet to drive one that would motivate me to buy it. Just to many other choices that better meet my tastes.
This means of course ignoring GM's move to China and Ford's move to Mexico. Correct?
I know that doesn't count. The three detroit nameplates can do what they like.... because they are based in Detroit. Curious logic.
Not supporting companies that actually employ your fellow citizens while standing blindly behind companies that increase the standard of living in Korea and China and Mexico kinda puts your entire way of thinking in the spotlight.
You can like the products you drive. But please don't waive the flag over companies which are already on the way out the door here. It makes you look silly.... and naive
Even with their move to these places for some parts, they still provide MANY more jobs and economic support than foreign companies. Toyota likes to brag about the fact that it provides something like 300,000 jobs in America. Well guess what, GM provides over a million. So when you buy Toyota, you support those 300,000, but when you buy GM, you are supporting over a million of your fellow Americans.
Now that is exactly right !!!! :mad: I'm sick and tired of some of you waving the American flag over over your Japanese car and spitting more false propoganda then Mussolini. :mad: The Japanese car company's still assemble, and buy plenty of foreign sourced car parts. Ya'll brag about the Camry being made in Kentucky and has 80% domestic content. Name me the Lexus cars made here in the United States :mad:
Honda/Acura makes a few cars here and the Germans make a couple. The bottom line is the domestic auto-manufactors provide millions of jobs and buy more parts from american company's than the foreign trans-plants :mad: Ya'll can buy what ya want and sure I'm happy those foreign nameplates are providing jobs. OTOH the success of these foreign nameplates because of a unfair, uneven, trade policy we are losing more automobile jobs than the Japanese are replacing. :sick: :mad:
Rocky
http://www.detroitnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060505/AUTO01/605050404/- 1148
Rocky
So much for the American jobs, ehhhh?
I wonder how Japan handles American companies building cars in Japan and using imported American parts but bragging that they build them in Japan. Oh, I forgot, Japan has always made it _extremely_ difficult for US to sell or compete _in_ Japan. But I guess we ought to support the Japanese in their efforts to spread equality around the world? grin. grin. grin.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
OTOH The trade issue of us not being able to go to Japan and compete is very ridiculous :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
Rocky
P.S.
Great Post Pal. You hit the nail square on the head !!!!
Simply not true! Quit throwing stink bombs rockylee.
In fact, probably quite the opposite is true. I don't think anyone has anything against unions winning reasonable benefits. That's not what's wrong with unions!
What I WOULD like to abolish is union "welfare" recipients standing around the shops all day doing practically nothing. I would also like to be able to fire unproductive and disruptive workers without an act of Congress. Get rid of the union dead wood, keep the decent workers (with benefits!) and GM would be able to build higher quality cars at a more competitive price.
You guys are exactly right about the level playing field, however. We need to have a serious "come to Jesus" talk with Japan and all of our trading partners while we still have the leverage to do so. We're letting our trading partners run roughshod over us. Short term, it costs jobs. Long term, it will turn us into a 3rd world country.