"Would the Hyundai Sonata be a better matchup with the Buick LaCrosse?"
So, to be fair to the LaCrosse, you've got to go DOWNMARKET in the Hyundai lineup? Oh c'mon now; that's just piling on poor ol' lemko :P
Actually, I was comparing the Azera to the LaCrosse simply because it was mentioned earlier that someone had 'upgraded' from a LaCrosse to the Azera (plus, I knew that lemko's GF had a LaCrosse).
Also, if you go the the Azera page on click on 'Compare Vehicles', the four cars that Edmunds comes up with are the LaCrosse, Ford 500, Maxima, and Avalon.
makes me think first of those flowering bushes out in front of my grandmother's house.
I remember reading ages ago, in a Marketing course, that you're not supposed to name a product anything that ends in an "uh" sound. And it's even worse if the name begins with a vowel. Supposedly that makes it harder to remember, so the name kinda just fades into obscurity and just doesn't register. Kinda like "Achieva", "Aurora", etc. Well, I guess they did okay with "Impala".
Actually, I was comparing the Azera to the LaCrosse simply because it was mentioned earlier that someone had 'upgraded' from a LaCrosse to the Azera (plus, I knew that lemko's GF had a LaCrosse).
April 06 issue of CR, page 54, under Azera writeup: At its price point the Azera undercuts a comparably equipped Buick Lucerne or Toyota Avalon.
Apparently CR thinks that Azera is in same class as Lucerne and Avalon. Jan 06 C&D says that Azera is a wannabe Lexus.
Well, of those, the only one that ends in an "-uh" sound is "Acura". And the main reason Acura got rid of real names like "Legend", "Vigor", and "Integra" was because the brand had no name recognition. It was all in the model names. That's why they went to jumbles of letters, which are themselves generic, and that helps to bring more focus to the brand name.
Just to point out that there's Toyota and Honda that end in '-uh'. A few models come to mind like the Corolla and the Tundra.
Not to mention Coca-cola.
Many Japanese places/names end in 'uh'. In most cases, it will end in a vowel due to phonetically spelling out the words. Don't think that 'rule' can be applied to non English speaking countries that easily.
and it's not just the HP. The domestic engines you mention, the 3.8, the new 3.9, the Ford 3.0, and the Chrysler 3.5 are simply not happy being pushed. Rough and noisy at anything over 4000 rpm - simply not in the same class as those 'Japanese' mills, the MB 3.5, the VW 3.6, both Hyundai V6s or the BMW straight 6s.
are also named after their founders, and not just buzzwords that some marketing department dreamed up. As for Corolla and Tundra (and Coca-Cola), well those names would lose points because of the "-uh" sound, but would redeem themselves somewhat by not starting with a vowel.
But hey, it's just a general rule, not a bible to live by or anything. Plus, If Honda and Toyota didn't build decent cars to put those nameplates on, you can rest assured those names would fade into obsurity, too.
...to compare an Azera to the LaCrosse. It's sacrelidge to compare it to either an Avalon or Lucerne. The Avalon and Lucerne are so far above the Azera it needs the Hubble telescope to see them
i wonder why u feel the Azera is not equal to the buick and avalon. Its seems to dust a V8 powered buick to 60 and beyond. That ends it for buick right there. The quality is neck and neck with the yota, and from what i read the avalon is not farring so well in the reliability part. Although it was just redesigned this is not typical toyota. The azera is all new and i havent heard anything but nitpicking with this vehicle so that leads me to believe the major stuff is doing well on the azera. Hyundai has a lot to prove and so far, they seem to be doing an excellent job. If i were in the market for one of these vehicles i would easily pick the azera, for price, performance, quality, looks (subjective), ect... The lucurne needs more power and fast. So you may think just because its Korean that its not as good as a domestic. You better look again, the domestics need to wake up and start building cars that people want and not cars that the the bean counters tell them to build.
Chrysler people are in charge not the origional Daimler mercades people, a majority of the germans workers quit the german factory when the new managment came up with the new quality/designs, they didn't want to be involved with building substandard junk. Since the merger there have been more recals. brake compotants are failing, throtle compontants are failing the quality has fallen to chrysler standards.
interesting perception - personally I would go for the Azera a long time before either Buick and do feel it is closer to my Avalon although it is not offered in tighter 'sports' version. Then, the only thing you have to deal with resale value histories on either the Buicks or the Hyundai which is where the Toyota will make up for most (or all) of the cost differences. IMO Hyundai is already making better cars than the US automakers and is at least beginning to knock on the doors of the Japanese 'Big 3'.
i respect your opinion, but i think hyundai is more than knocking, i think the door has been opened. Hyundai has surpassed the U.S. automakers and is now comparable to the best from japan. The only 2 features i think the avalon has over the azera is, adaptive cruise and navigation. But im sure with the rate hyundai is moving, i fully expect onboard navi very soon. While yota builds a darn good car, the same can be said for hyundai. I think now its just a matter of public perception. Yota has done its job of proving itself to the public, now hyundai is at bat and i think there doing a good job. Kinda reminds me of when yota launced lexus and they over enginerred the cars almost to the point of perfection. While im not calling hyundai lexus, i think the story is similar in the way hyundai is executing its current vechile lineup. The vehicles are pretty much loaded up with everything and the price is just unbeatable. Lets see how its holds up in the end. but im sure they will be just fine.
...right out of the gate. The only thing knocking in an Azera are the connecting rods. I'd take the old XG300/350 over this ersatz Camry. Shoot, sell the Eqquus here. At least they have a look all their own. I feel stabbed in the back by Hyundai and that counts for a lot of my bitterness. I liked the unique look they had all their own and now they're making blatant copies of existing Japanese designs. Feh!
Man, are you ever caught in a time warp! You really need to get out more. Go take a test drive. Unless you are stone cold closed-minded, you will see what the hoopla is about.
If you decide on your car/truck by name than have fun saying the name of whatever you bought as you call the tow truck or dealer to complain about what is wrong or what isn't getting fixed. I test drove cars at every dealer in the area, then checked reliability reports on them and BBB complaints against the dealers (chrysler & ford dealers where removed from list to buy from after this)then I hit up the dealers on warrenty and if they provided loaners for free if car was in for warrenty work. After all the checking around list was down to Toyota, Kia, and Hyundai, last checks I did where what insurance would be on the vehicles I was looking at and what insurance reports said about the vehicles and how they did in crash tests, also checked junk yards for wrecked vehicles of type I wanted to get, also checked shops on what work was being done on any of these cars, then made my decision, the car I bought has no problems going through unplowed alaskan roads rock solid on roads in high winds and ice and gets good MPG for its size, I have had to go to the dealer 3 times, 1 to get mud flaps installed, again to get a very small dent fixed, and another time because the guy that was supposed to fix the dent didn't show up, my car was detailed each time and the gastank was topped off each time, I also get up to 3 free oil changes per year for free as long as I own the car, I paid $25,899 for the car you will not get this type of service from GMC, Ford, or Chrysler. Also if any of the big 3 have a good engine why do they only have a 3/36 warrenty on them? my car has a 10/100 and some dealerships offer a 10/250 on the engine drivetrain.
"Chrysler people are in charge not the origional Daimler mercades people..."
Yes - but completely unrelated to the point I was making.
My post was directed at corvettefan427 who opined that he considered Saab and Volvo to be Domestics JUST because of their owners (GM and Ford).
My point (perhaps a bit too subtle) was that one CAN'T simply look at the organization (whether it is a 'Domestic' or an 'Import') to make a determination that car 'X' is a Domestic or an Import.
Personally, I think this ENTIRE ISSUE (Buying American Cars: What Does It Mean?) comes down to this:
Some folks believe that if the parent organization is historically considered a 'Domestic' (ie. Ford/GM/Chrysler), then EVERYTHING sold under their banner is a 'Domestic'. Regardless of where it was assembled or where the parts were sourced from.
For these folks, all that matters (ALL that matters) is what that 50 cent hunk of plastic on the deck lid says. How else could they POSSIBLY consider a Chevy Aveo to be more 'domestic' than a Honda Civic. Or a Saab 9-3 rather than a Honda Accord.
Other folks don't pay as much attention to the mailing address of the parent organization. They look at the car, not the parent organization. Was THIS car built domestically or imported? Was THIS car built from parts sourced domestically or imported?
For these folks, it ISN'T as simple as glancing at the decklid and making up their mind if the car is 'murican or not. What counts is where THAT car was built and where THOSE parts were sourced.
IMHO, if a car is built domestically with more than 50% domestic parts, it is a domestic (regardless of whether or not the make ends with a vowel sound).
Well regardless of say a Chrysler being domestic US/Canada/Mexico built, once bought by DCX, it is theirs. Thus all Chryslers are German in that respect.
How true though that a Honda or Sonata may end up having more parts and being built right here in the US or A, while a GM or Ford could be parts-is-parts and made elsewhere. You can look at domestic made that way. Actually everyone can and will draw their on conclusions. The fact is though the end money goes to the company of which owns that brand of car. Is the end money the large sum -- another debate. Is it good for America to have the same number of car being made, but not as many by the old big three -- another debate. -Loren
I look strictly at fuel efficiency when evaluating whether a car maker is "good". At comparable weights and power, Toyota can get ~20 % better fuel economy than a Hyundai (i.e compare the fuel economy of a Hyundai Accent to a Toyota Echo or for that matter any comparable vehicle in their lineups). Fuel efficiency is a good indicator of the overall dynamics of engine build, tolerances, proper gearing and aerodynamic efficiency. Ice cream makers and navigation systems within the car are just tech crap designed to take one's eyes away from true engine building capability. Hyundai is almost at the quality level of a GM or Ford, not beyond.
Lexus is in a different league, and yes they did have it together, hince the success of the company today. But i was just using a comparison to lexus (yota's) strategy when they launched there linup. The Eqquus will be here soon, and will take on the more premium rear drive vechicles out there. I figure it will be comparable just as the sonata is to other midsizers and azera to the full sizers. Great Bang for the Buck. I think its safe to assume you havent driven the azera to make the comments that you are making, i dont understand why people like you get upset when hyundai is just giving you (the consumer) a better built alternative to your american counterparts. Its not my fault the U.S. automaker doesnt want to build a quality and affordable vehicle. And until they do my money will go elsewhere. And you can defend the buick all day long, but i think its shameful that the "Korean" is a better vehicle both inside and out.
Hyundai has surpassed the U.S. automakers in regards to quality. Just lift the hood of a comparable gm/ford vehicle and you'll see exactly what im talking about. You'll most likely find a dated powertrain, trashy and unrefined in performance. Just open the door and you'll likely find inferior materials, misaligned panels, lack of features (safety on base models). If you were able to see the platform, you would see one that probably dates back to the 80's. Toyota is excellent at what it does, which is why it will overtake gm very soon, so toyota is not the one worried, it should be the U.S. automakers. Its funny you speak fuel economy #'s. When Gm's main concern seems to be behemoth SUV's. just goes to show somehow they still dont get it.
objective sources, pls name them, better yet, i dont need your sources, i have my own, which is myself, just go to your local rental counter and rent one for yourself, every gm vehicle that ive step foot in has been below par to me and with only a few thosand miles on the clock, looks like its on its last leg. The materials do not feel of any quality, doors dont close with a thunk, powertrains are just unbarably unrefined, and the list goes on. The hyundai seems to hold up better than any gm vehicle that ive rented or rode in, seems better put together and has quality materials throughout. And the most important aspect to me is the engines. They make refined noises and move the vehicles with authority, and do not run out of steam at 4000 rmp's. Dual phase hybrid, nothing wrong with it other than being 2 yrs behind a full hybrid like toyota offers. you would think being the largest automaker and all, this stuff would be the best avail. Seems like a cheap alternative to a full hybrid system.
First point: Objective sources: buff magazines, JD Power, Online resources such as Edmunds, etc.
Second point: Rentals: I rent multiple times per month. Hyundais are common rentals. I have nothing against them. Am not enamored with them. They strike me as being too heavy and gas thirsty for their class. They tend to remove the driver from the experience.
Third point: Dual phase hybrid, nothing wrong with it other than being 2 yrs behind a full hybrid like toyota offers. you would think being the largest automaker and all, this stuff would be the best avail. Seems like a cheap alternative to a full hybrid system.
You are getting your facts mixed up here.
GM has two hybrid systems. One, currently available in some pick ups and soon to be available in the Green Line Vue, is not a complete hybrid system. Nevertheless, the Green VUE will be the top mileage winner in its class at a price significantly below the cute utes using the Toyota system.
The second hybrid system is GM's dual phase that it is developing with Daimler and BMW. The dual phase incorporates the electric engines into the drive train. It is more sophisticated than the Toyota system and should prove to be better. There have been many objective reports about the dual phase. Most of them quite positive.
Guess that is one problem with only relying on yourself for data gathering. There is too much data out there for one person to gather.
please point out where these sources say the gm vehicles are better than hyundai. Now as a whole corporation gm may have 1 or 2 brands near the top in jd powers but thats it. When comparing gm vehicles to hyundai vehicles, at least from the mag reviews ive read, the gm vehicle doesnt win. (i.e. buick lucurne vs hyundai azera)
Well thats certainly your opinion on how you feel about the rentals, you failed to mention how the gm vehicles feel. The sonata deffinatly has more feel than the "sporty" pontiac g6, with its electric sterring, feels like it stuck in butter.
Im well aware of the gm hybrid or lack there of that they current use on the silverado. This hybrid has been paneed continuiously for not providing any tangable benifits, its also very unrefined in the manner that it kicks in and out of service. Ill wait for the epa to determine who will be the mileage champ.
Well if it is more sophisticated than toyota's, its about time, kudos gm, wow..!! it took that many collaborations to out do one manufacturer's hybrid. while it may be more sophisticated than the yota's, let see if its more effective. Gm has a lot to prove to me and the u.s. consumer hince the slidding sales. So ill wait to see how this system performs before i jump to any conclusions as should you.
I guess relying on my own data keeps me from buying a gm car. I guess alot more of my fellow americans gather the same info that i gather.
and no consideration of power relative to fuel efficiency? otherwise your contention is valid, except that how can you avoid the diesels and those rolling video games called hybrids? I do agree that there seems to be an awful lot of value on needless technology by the average car buyer. I drive about 30000 miles a year and often to places I haven't been and can count on one hand the number of times I would have found a $2000 NAV system useful over that period - and that, of course, is assumming that I would have had the patience to 'argue' with it in the first place. Also strongly feel that stability and traction control systems are potentially dangerous. That would be the Mr. Hyde. The Dr. Jekyll - the ECUs in most engines these days that control these variable cams, injector timing and mixture control and about everything else. My 213 ci engine putting out 280hp is marvelous especially considering the 27 mpg I get - which leads to the last Mr. Hyde - I can't do much under the hood anymore!
GM's overall Power corporate rating is much higher than Hyundai. Hyundai is doing better but no where close.
I've not rented a G6. I did rent a Malibu Max. The car is solid, handles well, and holds about as much cargo as a mini-van. The electric steering feels different. But it does not prevent the car from handling well enough for an FWD vehicle.
The Silverado is the first hybrid truck. It is, in fact quite practical for what it is. The first hybrids needed updates as well.
I cannot tell from your post, but you appear to continue to confuse GM's value hybrid system - something it made on its own - and the 2 phase system which is far more sophisticated than even what Toyota uses. Both will have their value. Certainly getting an affordable hybrid small SUV to market well be very good thing for the consumers who cannot afford a 6k or so premium.
None of this helps Hyundai, of course. To the extent it will have a hybrid, my understanding is it looks to Toyota.
This underscores the ineptitude and lack of vision of GM to have a sporty type RWD marque dating to 1967 and not be able to develop and improve it to be just as desirable and sophisticated as did BMW with its 2002 model(in 1968) to the present 3 series world standard.
I agree, early Camaros, like first gens, were pretty [non-permissible content removed]. And don't even get me started on how bad of a job chevy does at building corvettes. I mean, come on, 400 and 505 hp, handling and brakes that rival cars costing more than twice as much! Geeze, why can't chevy build these sporty rwd cars well?!
I've been a "buy American" car guy forever. I own a Jeep Loberty and a Malibu Maxx. I've got to tell you that those days are over. I just spent 2 weeks with my mother-in-law shopping for a replacement for her 9 year old Lincoln Continental which has grown too big for her as she shrinks into old age. What I saw opened my eyes. The Japanese and Korean cars are built better, equipped better, handle better, run smoother and get better milage. This is not news - but it has been getting more and more lopsided every year. Hyundai's engines are now nearly as sophisticated as Honda and Toyota and lightyears ahead of what GM and Ford are putting into their cars. As for DC - they have nothing at all to offer as competition to the Accord, Camary or Sonata - and I don't see anything coming down the road. It's really a shame that nobody left a wake up call for American automotive manufacturers. And if you think there is competition now, just wait for the Chinese cars to reach our shores!
Well the Accent is larger, heavier and safer than the Toy ECHO. With the standard side air bags, it is clearly a better car than is the ECHO. The weight is 2403# compared to 2055 on the Toy car. In this case I would take the Hyundai over the Toyota. The new Yaris is pretty good little guy. The ECHO was yuk-o. -Loren
Have done several comparisons between makes, and so far GM has never won. That said, if you want something different to drive, such as a Monte Carlo, or some other low volume of sales car, then I guess a few bucks more, or a feature or two missing ain't so bad. Sorry, but that's the best thing I can say for the comparo's so far. A few cars, if price is no concern may be sorta close. So when a year to two down the road happens -- good price will blossom all over GM lots. In a couple years, Lucerne V8s may be cheap. A we will know by then if they are good or crap. -Loren
"The weight is 2403# compared to 2055 on the Toy car."
You say that like it's a good thing!
But I agree with your overall point. Some Hyundais (and the Kia Rio) have become as good or better than some Toyotas, depending on your priorities. Those interested in mileage will still look to Toyota and Honda, or those who keep cars for 15 years. Manual transmission drivers, Honda or Mazda (or feel and feedback). Cheap power, Nissan. Etc.
As for larger cars, from all the articles out there, I think I'd take an Azera over a LaCrosse for sure, and over lower-trim Lucernes. The top-spec Lucerne seems like a great car. I don't know how I rate the Avalon... having seen it in person I'm not so big on the exterior styling anymore. The interior is great, but very old-personish.
Yes, the weight of 2,055 seem awfully light for anything I would take up to freeway speed. That is less than a Miata. The ECHO is a feather on a windy road no doubt. Would rather own the Accent. New Accent to come.
Best deal now seem like the Sonata, which is rated safer than the Azera, is less expensive at $19500 after savings, and looks pretty good. Yes, it is not the best idea to copy. It looks a little different than the Accord. A whole lot less money.
Coolest looking in the Hyundai line is still the Tiburon. -Loren
Title of article in today's WSJ is: Mom, Apple Pie and...Toyota.
An article in today’s WSJ states that Toyota Sienna has 90 percent local components vs the Ford Mustang which has 65 percent. It also states that in the past, Japanese companies such as Honda, Toyota and Nissan factories in the US were derided as foreign owned transplants knocking together imported parts. However, these three companies have been pouring money into the US over the last 20 years investing in plants, suppliers, dealerships as well as design, testing and research centers.
Wonder how many actual jobs gained or lost in the US over the last 20 years by the major car companies – Chrysler, Ford, Honda, GM, Nissan, Toyota. Seems like we are always hearing about layoffs or early retirements at Chrysler, Ford and GM.
The article also stated that Toyota Camry will be involved in NASCAR racing next year. How will NASCAR fans react to a RWD purpose-built racing car with a "2-door" Camry shell. Will they have added incentive to root for the American branded shells?
larger and heavier does not necessarily equal safer but your comment does point out one of the few problems that the Korean mfgrs. have yet to solve. Almost without exception their cars are 5-10% heavier than comparable cars from Toyota, Honda etc. which is one reason why their mpg tends to lag a little, because otherwise their drivetrains are competitive (unlike the US mfgrs.). Building cars light (and safe) requires technology. Wonder how many of us have actually had the misfortune of an airbag deployment - would bet not many. Buying a car by the pound, however, would have us all in pickup trucks and SUVs - the fact that we aren't doing that anymore is a good part of Detroit's problem. All else equal, the lighter car will out handle, out accelerate, and out brake the same car weighing more. If you consider those attributes more important to overall vehicle safety than some side airbags (that hopefully you never use) then maybe you look at that lower weight as a virtue. And, of course, the improved fuel economy.
...has as much in common with a stock car as a Saturn V rocket has with a bottle rocket. It doesn't matter whose shell or what decals are used to suggest what make. I think the only thing that's Chevy or Ford in those cars is the engine block. NASCAR is all about the driver, not about who has the better car. Maybe it made a difference in the 1960s, but today the cars are all evenly matched. I'm sure there are some NASCAR fans that will raise a big hullaballo over a Toyota in the Nextel Cup.
A NASCAR racerhas as much in common with a stock car as a Saturn V rocket has with a bottle rocket. It doesn't matter whose shell or what decals are used to suggest what make.
Issue is we have a furin brand invading sacred American racing turf. What will Toyota do next - a Corola, Scion or Camry shell competing against a RWD Chevy Cobalt shell in NHRA Pro "Stock" class?
and yep that Camry is every bit as much an 'American' car as the Fusions/Monte Carlos etc. that are 'duplicated' for promotional purposes on the racetrack. I think the average NASCAR fan does understand that there is absolutely no relationship between the car on the track and the car in the showroom, and pays little or no attention to what particular 'brand' wins - at least currently. From what I understand, NASCAR is actually worried about Toyota's impending 'Camry' and possible domination by those entries. Not because the car will in any way be related to the real car (it won't, of course), but because Toyota has more money than Microsoft to develop it. A microcosm of what is happening in the real world!
...in NASCAR after Dale Sr. died. To me it's all about the driver. I liked Bobby Allison back in the day and he raced AMC Matadors in the mid 1970s. He later drove those cool Buicks in the early '80s. Harry Gant had the Skoal Bandit Oldsmobile around the same time. Heck, maybe it's time for a little variety. Too bad I don't have millions of dollars to throw away. I'd sponsor a Buick LaCrosse-looking racer for the heck of it.
...a gold 2004 Chrysler Sebring my girlfriend and I rented. That car was filthy and the front wheels were caked with brake dust. By the time I got done with it, the car almost looked showroom new aside from all the scrapes and scratches from the pigs who previously rented it.
Even the luxury cars are mistreated. I recently had a 2005 Cadillac DeVille for a rental and the dashboard was covered with half an inch of dust and the windows were so badly filmed they were almost opaque. Smelled like somebody smoked the entire inventory of Holt's Cigar store in it.
One thing that holds down fuel economy in Hyundai engines is that they run a rich fuel-air mix so that the higher compression ratios (10 to 10.5) don't knock on 87 octane gas.
>Toyota Sienna has 90 percent local components vs the Ford Mustang which has 65 percent.
Are those the same US suppliers that other car companies have been using or do they include companies set up or transported over and have the appearance of being US suppliers now?
Have you seen their prices lately? Out of curiosity I looked yesterday. A completely loaded up LX V6 with heated leather, moonroof, 6CD+MP3, VSC, ABS, basically everything but NAV, which is not yet offered, can he had for under $20 grand.
I mean, Holy Cow! That's a good $6 grand price advantage over Honda and Toyota. With an engine that'll get it to 60mph in the 6s range plus an EPA full-sized interior.
Delete leather and the 6CD and you still have it pretty loaded up with a moonroof and everything else for $17.8k.
I don't really like the interior, but the price advantage is pretty darn compelling. You almost have to buy Korean, it's nuts.
Fusion can beat Honda/Toyota on price, but I think the Koreans are going to be the real headache for Ford.
Well, take a look at crashtest.com on Hyundai vs. Toyota on the cars previously mentioned and heck any of the Hyundai cars. They are as safe or safer by the data.
While a 2000# car may be good on the track, I would not want to be whacked by an SUV in something that lightweight. Man's gotta know his limitations.
The side air bags have now been proven to work in many a car, over several years now. It is in the numbers, as well as, the road as a proving ground.
An ECHO is not going to out handle anything. I think the tip rate is something like a 14%. Narrow little thing, as it is.
For gas mileage, just get the Civic, at 40MPG. It has enough size, weight, and handling. For price and content, the Sonata at $19,500 to me makes the most sense, if you want a 4dr sedan in a larger car. Yes- larger than the Camry and Accord. Take a look at safety data and it is right there on the top, or should I say with or besting the best. -Loren
Comments
So, to be fair to the LaCrosse, you've got to go DOWNMARKET in the Hyundai lineup? Oh c'mon now; that's just piling on poor ol' lemko :P
Actually, I was comparing the Azera to the LaCrosse simply because it was mentioned earlier that someone had 'upgraded' from a LaCrosse to the Azera (plus, I knew that lemko's GF had a LaCrosse).
Also, if you go the the Azera page on click on 'Compare Vehicles', the four cars that Edmunds comes up with are the LaCrosse, Ford 500, Maxima, and Avalon.
I remember reading ages ago, in a Marketing course, that you're not supposed to name a product anything that ends in an "uh" sound. And it's even worse if the name begins with a vowel. Supposedly that makes it harder to remember, so the name kinda just fades into obscurity and just doesn't register. Kinda like "Achieva", "Aurora", etc. Well, I guess they did okay with "Impala".
The Sonata is bigger than the Camry, a full-size by EPA rules. Azera is even bigger.
So I would not call it a fake Camry.
-juice
April 06 issue of CR, page 54, under Azera writeup: At its price point the Azera undercuts a comparably equipped Buick Lucerne or Toyota Avalon.
Apparently CR thinks that Azera is in same class as Lucerne and Avalon. Jan 06 C&D says that Azera is a wannabe Lexus.
Such as Audi, Acura, Infiniti, Avalon, etc.?
The Sonata is so-so, but the Azera's interior is nice. I think they've come a long way.
-juice
Well, of those, the only one that ends in an "-uh" sound is "Acura". And the main reason Acura got rid of real names like "Legend", "Vigor", and "Integra" was because the brand had no name recognition. It was all in the model names. That's why they went to jumbles of letters, which are themselves generic, and that helps to bring more focus to the brand name.
Not to mention Coca-cola.
Many Japanese places/names end in 'uh'. In most cases, it will end in a vowel due to phonetically spelling out the words. Don't think that 'rule' can be applied to non English speaking countries that easily.
But hey, it's just a general rule, not a bible to live by or anything. Plus, If Honda and Toyota didn't build decent cars to put those nameplates on, you can rest assured those names would fade into obsurity, too.
Since the merger there have been more recals. brake compotants are failing, throtle compontants are failing the quality has fallen to chrysler standards.
I test drove cars at every dealer in the area, then checked reliability reports on them and BBB complaints against the dealers (chrysler & ford dealers where removed from list to buy from after this)then I hit up the dealers on warrenty and if they provided loaners for free if car was in for warrenty work.
After all the checking around list was down to Toyota, Kia, and Hyundai, last checks I did where what insurance would be on the vehicles I was looking at and what insurance reports said about the vehicles and how they did in crash tests, also checked junk yards for wrecked vehicles of type I wanted to get, also checked shops on what work was being done on any of these cars, then made my decision, the car I bought has no problems going through unplowed alaskan roads rock solid on roads in high winds and ice and gets good MPG for its size, I have had to go to the dealer 3 times, 1 to get mud flaps installed, again to get a very small dent fixed, and another time because the guy that was supposed to fix the dent didn't show up, my car was detailed each time and the gastank was topped off each time, I also get up to 3 free oil changes per year for free as long as I own the car, I paid $25,899 for the car you will not get this type of service from GMC, Ford, or Chrysler.
Also if any of the big 3 have a good engine why do they only have a 3/36 warrenty on them? my car has a 10/100 and some dealerships offer a 10/250 on the engine drivetrain.
Yes - but completely unrelated to the point I was making.
My post was directed at corvettefan427 who opined that he considered Saab and Volvo to be Domestics JUST because of their owners (GM and Ford).
My point (perhaps a bit too subtle) was that one CAN'T simply look at the organization (whether it is a 'Domestic' or an 'Import') to make a determination that car 'X' is a Domestic or an Import.
Personally, I think this ENTIRE ISSUE (Buying American Cars: What Does It Mean?) comes down to this:
Some folks believe that if the parent organization is historically considered a 'Domestic' (ie. Ford/GM/Chrysler), then EVERYTHING sold under their banner is a 'Domestic'. Regardless of where it was assembled or where the parts were sourced from.
For these folks, all that matters (ALL that matters) is what that 50 cent hunk of plastic on the deck lid says. How else could they POSSIBLY consider a Chevy Aveo to be more 'domestic' than a Honda Civic. Or a Saab 9-3 rather than a Honda Accord.
Other folks don't pay as much attention to the mailing address of the parent organization. They look at the car, not the parent organization. Was THIS car built domestically or imported? Was THIS car built from parts sourced domestically or imported?
For these folks, it ISN'T as simple as glancing at the decklid and making up their mind if the car is 'murican or not. What counts is where THAT car was built and where THOSE parts were sourced.
IMHO, if a car is built domestically with more than 50% domestic parts, it is a domestic (regardless of whether or not the make ends with a vowel sound).
As for the content of the post, it is hard to follow just what it is all about.
How true though that a Honda or Sonata may end up having more parts and being built right here in the US or A, while a GM or Ford could be parts-is-parts and made elsewhere. You can look at domestic made that way. Actually everyone can and will draw their on conclusions. The fact is though the end money goes to the company of which owns that brand of car. Is the end money the large sum -- another debate. Is it good for America to have the same number of car being made, but not as many by the old big three -- another debate.
-Loren
The Eqquus will be here soon, and will take on the more premium rear drive vechicles out there. I figure it will be comparable just as the sonata is to other midsizers and azera to the full sizers. Great Bang for the Buck.
I think its safe to assume you havent driven the azera to make the comments that you are making, i dont understand why people like you get upset when hyundai is just giving you (the consumer) a better built alternative to your american counterparts. Its not my fault the U.S. automaker doesnt want to build a quality and affordable vehicle. And until they do my money will go elsewhere. And you can defend the buick all day long, but i think its shameful that the "Korean" is a better vehicle both inside and out.
Its funny you speak fuel economy #'s. When Gm's main concern seems to be behemoth SUV's. just goes to show somehow they still dont get it.
When Gm's main concern seems to be behemoth SUV's. just goes to show somehow they still dont get it.
So you are saying the dual phase hybrid system GM will launch this Fall does not get it (whatever that oft repeated phrase is supposed to mean)?
What does Hyundai have that is better for their many - and rather thirsty - small truck models?
Dual phase hybrid, nothing wrong with it other than being 2 yrs behind a full hybrid like toyota offers. you would think being the largest automaker and all, this stuff would be the best avail. Seems like a cheap alternative to a full hybrid system.
Second point: Rentals: I rent multiple times per month. Hyundais are common rentals. I have nothing against them. Am not enamored with them. They strike me as being too heavy and gas thirsty for their class. They tend to remove the driver from the experience.
Third point: Dual phase hybrid, nothing wrong with it other than being 2 yrs behind a full hybrid like toyota offers. you would think being the largest automaker and all, this stuff would be the best avail. Seems like a cheap alternative to a full hybrid system.
You are getting your facts mixed up here.
GM has two hybrid systems. One, currently available in some pick ups and soon to be available in the Green Line Vue, is not a complete hybrid system. Nevertheless, the Green VUE will be the top mileage winner in its class at a price significantly below the cute utes using the Toyota system.
The second hybrid system is GM's dual phase that it is developing with Daimler and BMW. The dual phase incorporates the electric engines into the drive train. It is more sophisticated than the Toyota system and should prove to be better. There have been many objective reports about the dual phase. Most of them quite positive.
Guess that is one problem with only relying on yourself for data gathering. There is too much data out there for one person to gather.
Well thats certainly your opinion on how you feel about the rentals, you failed to mention how the gm vehicles feel. The sonata deffinatly has more feel than the "sporty" pontiac g6, with its electric sterring, feels like it stuck in butter.
Im well aware of the gm hybrid or lack there of that they current use on the silverado. This hybrid has been paneed continuiously for not providing any tangable benifits, its also very unrefined in the manner that it kicks in and out of service. Ill wait for the epa to determine who will be the mileage champ.
Well if it is more sophisticated than toyota's, its about time, kudos gm, wow..!! it took that many collaborations to out do one manufacturer's hybrid. while it may be more sophisticated than the yota's, let see if its more effective. Gm has a lot to prove to me and the u.s. consumer hince the slidding sales. So ill wait to see how this system performs before i jump to any conclusions as should you.
I guess relying on my own data keeps me from buying a gm car. I guess alot more of my fellow americans gather the same info that i gather.
otherwise your contention is valid, except that how can you avoid the diesels and those rolling video games called hybrids? I do agree that there seems to be an awful lot of value on needless technology by the average car buyer. I drive about 30000 miles a year and often to places I haven't been and can count on one hand the number of times I would have found a $2000 NAV system useful over that period - and that, of course, is assumming that I would have had the patience to 'argue' with it in the first place. Also strongly feel that stability and traction control systems are potentially dangerous. That would be the Mr. Hyde. The Dr. Jekyll - the ECUs in most engines these days that control these variable cams, injector timing and mixture control and about everything else. My 213 ci engine putting out 280hp is marvelous especially considering the 27 mpg I get - which leads to the last Mr. Hyde - I can't do much under the hood anymore!
I've not rented a G6. I did rent a Malibu Max. The car is solid, handles well, and holds about as much cargo as a mini-van. The electric steering feels different. But it does not prevent the car from handling well enough for an FWD vehicle.
The Silverado is the first hybrid truck. It is, in fact quite practical for what it is. The first hybrids needed updates as well.
I cannot tell from your post, but you appear to continue to confuse GM's value hybrid system - something it made on its own - and the 2 phase system which is far more sophisticated than even what Toyota uses. Both will have their value. Certainly getting an affordable hybrid small SUV to market well be very good thing for the consumers who cannot afford a 6k or so premium.
None of this helps Hyundai, of course. To the extent it will have a hybrid, my understanding is it looks to Toyota.
I agree, early Camaros, like first gens, were pretty [non-permissible content removed]. And don't even get me started on how bad of a job chevy does at building corvettes. I mean, come on, 400 and 505 hp, handling and brakes that rival cars costing more than twice as much! Geeze, why can't chevy build these sporty rwd cars well?!
I'd say the Azera and lucerne are more competitors than the lacrosse.
I just spent 2 weeks with my mother-in-law shopping for a replacement for her 9 year old Lincoln Continental which has grown too big for her as she shrinks into old age. What I saw opened my eyes. The Japanese and Korean cars are built better, equipped better, handle better, run smoother and get better milage. This is not news - but it has been getting more and more lopsided every year. Hyundai's engines are now nearly as sophisticated as Honda and Toyota and lightyears ahead of what GM and Ford are putting into their cars. As for DC - they have nothing at all to offer as competition to the Accord, Camary or Sonata - and I don't see anything coming down the road.
It's really a shame that nobody left a wake up call for American automotive manufacturers. And if you think there is competition now, just wait for the Chinese cars to reach our shores!
-Loren
-Loren
You say that like it's a good thing!
But I agree with your overall point. Some Hyundais (and the Kia Rio) have become as good or better than some Toyotas, depending on your priorities. Those interested in mileage will still look to Toyota and Honda, or those who keep cars for 15 years. Manual transmission drivers, Honda or Mazda (or feel and feedback). Cheap power, Nissan. Etc.
As for larger cars, from all the articles out there, I think I'd take an Azera over a LaCrosse for sure, and over lower-trim Lucernes. The top-spec Lucerne seems like a great car. I don't know how I rate the Avalon... having seen it in person I'm not so big on the exterior styling anymore. The interior is great, but very old-personish.
Best deal now seem like the Sonata, which is rated safer than the Azera, is less expensive at $19500 after savings, and looks pretty good. Yes, it is not the best idea to copy. It looks a little different than the Accord. A whole lot less money.
Coolest looking in the Hyundai line is still the Tiburon.
-Loren
An article in today’s WSJ states that Toyota Sienna has 90 percent local components vs the Ford Mustang which has 65 percent. It also states that in the past, Japanese companies such as Honda, Toyota and Nissan factories in the US were derided as foreign owned transplants knocking together imported parts. However, these three companies have been pouring money into the US over the last 20 years investing in plants, suppliers, dealerships as well as design, testing and research centers.
Wonder how many actual jobs gained or lost in the US over the last 20 years by the major car companies – Chrysler, Ford, Honda, GM, Nissan, Toyota. Seems like we are always hearing about layoffs or early retirements at Chrysler, Ford and GM.
The article also stated that Toyota Camry will be involved in NASCAR racing next year. How will NASCAR fans react to a RWD purpose-built racing car with a "2-door" Camry shell. Will they have added incentive to root for the American branded shells?
All else equal, the lighter car will out handle, out accelerate, and out brake the same car weighing more. If you consider those attributes more important to overall vehicle safety than some side airbags (that hopefully you never use) then maybe you look at that lower weight as a virtue. And, of course, the improved fuel economy.
Issue is we have a furin brand invading sacred American racing turf. What will Toyota do next - a Corola, Scion or Camry shell competing against a RWD Chevy Cobalt shell in NHRA Pro "Stock" class?
From what I understand, NASCAR is actually worried about Toyota's impending 'Camry' and possible domination by those entries. Not because the car will in any way be related to the real car (it won't, of course), but because Toyota has more money than Microsoft to develop it.
A microcosm of what is happening in the real world!
Even the luxury cars are mistreated. I recently had a 2005 Cadillac DeVille for a rental and the dashboard was covered with half an inch of dust and the windows were so badly filmed they were almost opaque. Smelled like somebody smoked the entire inventory of Holt's Cigar store in it.
Are those the same US suppliers that other car companies have been using or do they include companies set up or transported over and have the appearance of being US suppliers now?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I mean, Holy Cow! That's a good $6 grand price advantage over Honda and Toyota. With an engine that'll get it to 60mph in the 6s range plus an EPA full-sized interior.
Delete leather and the 6CD and you still have it pretty loaded up with a moonroof and everything else for $17.8k.
I don't really like the interior, but the price advantage is pretty darn compelling. You almost have to buy Korean, it's nuts.
Fusion can beat Honda/Toyota on price, but I think the Koreans are going to be the real headache for Ford.
-juice
While a 2000# car may be good on the track, I would not want to be whacked by an SUV in something that lightweight. Man's gotta know his limitations.
The side air bags have now been proven to work in many a car, over several years now. It is in the numbers, as well as, the road as a proving ground.
An ECHO is not going to out handle anything. I think the tip rate is something like a 14%. Narrow little thing, as it is.
For gas mileage, just get the Civic, at 40MPG. It has enough size, weight, and handling. For price and content, the Sonata at $19,500 to me makes the most sense, if you want a 4dr sedan in a larger car. Yes- larger than the Camry and Accord. Take a look at safety data and it is right there on the top, or should I say with or besting the best.
-Loren
You can get a more basic V6 Sonata for a lot less, more like $17k.
-juice