Buying American Cars What Does It Mean?

m1miata

Buick LaCrosse sponsors for the NASCAR? Let's see, AARP, Ensure, Harry's Bingo Parlor..... Oh man, I can see that car in my mind so vividly.

Loren

ateixeira

Don't forget Depends.

OK that was mean. The 3.8 is great. There, made up for it.

-juice

m1miata

No, those are 4 cylinder models. Are we talking hyundaiusa site? Take a look at prices and offers. I am pretty sure it is 21,500 less 2,000.
-Loren

ateixeira

List price, sure, or maybe list minus rebate.

But I'm using street prices from fitzmall.com.

I know they are legit because my family has bought about 5 cars from them. Add a $99 fee and then taxes, that's it. The prices even include freight.

Under $20k even with the fee, add only taxes. Loaded to the gills.

-juice

m1miata

Ah looking back a few decades, we could see the real deal on the track. Remember when the cars did have original shape, you could buy a V8 with RWD, and one car was faster than another at the track. It did not look like rush hour traffic at a couple hundred MPH, it actually looked like a race. Oh well, real cars turn left and right Laguna Seca is a race track. :shades: Loren

bumpy

Laguna Seca's a pain in the butt. :mad: I like Road Atlanta. :shades:

captain2

had the opportunity to drive a new V6 Sonata for a week.
A vast improvement from that old wheezy V6 (GM and Ford are you listening) and while not quite up to the Nissan 3.5 in my wife's car - pretty close. This one a fun car to drive. Mileage appeared to be slightly less in the Sonata as well - maybe about 10% more fuel than the Altima uses.
Exterior styling certainly contemporary as is interior space - what I didn't like was the interior - still cheap and plasticky looking, some fit/finish issues, and what kind of plastic wood they are trying imitate looks like it came from Jupiter.
That said, a helluva buy at maybe $18k likely a good 4 grand or so cheaper that a comparable Altima and maybe a little more than that on Accords/Camrys. Resale values can, of course, make up for a good part of the price differences - but for folks that keep their cars for a long time - should be a must-drive in that category.

ateixeira

We would definitely test drive one if we were shopping for a sedan. They're actually cheaper than an Accord EX-L, four cylinder.

$22,456 for an Accord EX-L 4 cylinder auto at Browns Honda, in the same region. So for about $2600 more you give up the V6 engine to get a Honda.

-juice

andre1969

about the new Sonata is that it seems like some of the interior parts, like fabrics, door panels, seats, etc, seem more plush, cushy, and ritzy compared to something like an Accord or Camry, but then some of the hard plastic stuff didn't seem quite in the same league. And fit and finish details not quite up to the Cam/Cord. It almost seemed like the car was trying to make up for some of its shortcomings by trying to wow you with the plush materials. AMC tried that on their outdated offerings back in the 70's, trying to make the higher-trim versions of those Concordes and Matadors look almost like limousines (or Louisianna cathouses) inside, in an attempt to disguise the outdated designs.

At least with the Hyundai though, the design doesn't seem outdated, and the shortcoming aren't as glaring as on an old AMC!

lemko

"...and what kind of plastic wood they are trying imitate looks like it came from Jupiter."

No, it's genuine wood, but it was harvested from around Chernobyl

lemko

Remember the "Barcelona" edition Matadors or the Oleg Cassini edition? I believe the Barcelona edition even had woodgrain on the instrument faces.

ateixeira

I agree, there is less consistency in that interior. Some good, some bad.

I can't overlook the price point, though. You can get a V6 GLS for the price of an Accord DX. And keep in mind the DX has inferior materials compared to the high-end Accords (I think they also give up the luminescent gauges).

That makes the Sonata more acceptable. And there's always the Azera if you want a tad more. The interior is a bit more consistent.

-juice

nvbanker

Ah, the Sonata. Your assessment matches mine almost exactly. You are also correct about the mileage, that's not Hyundai's strong suit yet, as their cars are pound for pound, heavier than the competition, so they suffer a bit on mileage. Their engines are smooth, but low tech by today's standards as well. Lots like GM, only smoother. The interiors are not bad, but not excellent for sure. Still though, they seem to run a long time, the warranty is great, and the value is there in the price. I have learned to respect them. I just hope I never have to drive one... :P

nvbanker

So, the Wall Street Journal, has a big article today on B-1, about the Ford Mustang, having only 65% American Parts Content, yet the Toyota Sienna has 90% American Parts Content. What the hell is happening to our Auto Industry! I tell ya, we're done for. I give up.

I have believed for decades, that there would emerge 2 major worldwide auto providers eventually. I thought Ford would emerge as one, since they have a footprint almost everywhere in the world, and Toyota would be the other, for much the same reason. Not sure about Ford now, but Toyota has done it. :sick:

captain2

my apologies - only a guess on my part! - never been to Jupiter or Chernobyl!

captain2

armageddon for sure - but don't call in Dr. Jack just yet.

ace35

how is hyundai engine's low tech, they are fully up to date, especially the lambda series V6's. (3.3 and 3.8) they feature all aluminum construction, vvt, dohc, electronic trottle control. how can you even mention gm in regards to these engines, maybe the 3.6L vvt, but even this engine is noted for getting noisy and course once revved.

irnmdn

"...that people are trading in their LaCrosses already!"

What's scary is when a Hyundai is considered an upgrade from a Buick...
..which make Buick an 'am-radio on wheels' (when compared to a VCR on wheels).

xrunner2

Laguna Seca's a pain in the butt. I like Road Atlanta.

The creme de la creme of road racing circuits in the U.S. is Road America (RA) in Elkart Lake, Wisc. Anyone that's been there for the original Can-Am series (Chapperal, Hall, Penske, Donohue, Hulme, etc.) or the CART races years later will probably agreee. RA should be the yearly site for the U.S. F1 Grand Prix race rather than Indianapolis. It might need some mods to bring it up to F1 standards.

ateixeira

I agree, Hyundai's latest generation of engines is vastly superior to the old ones. The vehicles have also gotten lighter, note how the new Sedona/Entourage are a lot bigget yet also lighter than the predecessor.

They may not quite be there, but the gap has mostly shrunk away.

-juice

xrunner2

Remember the "Barcelona" edition Matadors or the Oleg Cassini edition? I believe the Barcelona edition even had woodgrain on the instrument faces.

There were tv commercials done by an actor with a Spanish accent hawking Corinthian leather on Dodges or Chryslers - the ones that rusted out their front fenders rather quickly.

andre1969

the first Sedona weighed close to 5,000 pounds, was EPA-rated around 15/20, and accelerated like a Diesel Delta 88. Okay, that last one may have been a slight exaggeration, but they have definitely come a long way. And quickly!

andre1969

There were tv commercials done by an actor with a Spanish accent hawking Corinthian leather on Dodges or Chryslers - the ones that rusted out their front fenders rather quickly.

That was Ricardo Montalban, drooling over the RRRRRich Corrrrrinthian Leatherrrrrrr in the Corrrrrdoba. Or saying something about from Hell's heart I stabbeth thee. :P

Anyway, that was the '76 and early '77 Aspen/Volare compacts that rusted out their front fenders (and snapped torsion bars). The Cordoba didn't really do anything that bad for the time period, except maybe some Lean Burn hiccups and that period rust-out from the rear quarter panels that was so in vogue at the time.

xrunner2

armageddon for sure - but don't call in Dr. Jack just yet.

Re American parts: anyone looked at sourcing of parts for their Dell computer? How about latest IBM Thinkpads.

bumpy

I like Road America less than I like Laguna Seca. :lemon:

bumpy

The vehicles have also gotten lighter, note how the new Sedona/Entourage are a lot bigget yet also lighter than the predecessor.

The new Elantra is also lighter than the existing model. Cars *losing* weight with a redesign is almost unheard of in this market.

bumpy

There were tv commercials done by an actor with a Spanish accent hawking Corinthian leather on Dodges or Chryslers

Ricardo Montalban, best known as the titular character of Star Trek II: the Wrath of Khan (I'd be angry too if Captain Kirk had marooned me on a desert world with a Dodge Aspen).

heel2toe

Hyundai is one of the three participants (DCX and Mitsubishi being the other two) in the development of those three I4 engines (1.8L, 2.0L, 2.4L) that are now being used in the Caliber/Compass/Patriot vehicles being built for Dodge and Jeep.

I don't think their engine disadvantage is going to last much longer, and I'd even bet that they are fully modernized in their offerings before GM manages to retire the 3400.

ace35

great post. i doubt gm will ever retire the 3400, it has atleast another 40 yrs of service life left. (LOL)

heel2toe

My wife and I try to drive all the competing products in a market before we purchase one. She's decided that her Pilot is unnecessarily large, so we are considering trading it for something somewhat smaller (RAV4-ish). The fact that a nearly new vehicle like the Equinox is carrying the 3400 around should be a complete embarassment to GM and its supporters.

If you want to put a crap engine in a car that you know will sell mostly to fleets, go ahead. I don't think the Equinox was/is that sort of vehicle, though, so I find it amazing what they have done...its almost like they are hoping that people are too stupid to notice.

The RAV4 V6 makes 269hp versus 185hp for the Equinox, gets dramatically better mileage (22/29 versus 19/24) and cost doesn't seem to be wildly different. Why is someone supposed to buy the Chevy? To give GM validation that sending antique engine designs to be built in China is a good idea? Thanks but no thanks...

lemko

Chrysler should use Riccardo Montalban in its current commercials today but have him play Khan stealing William Shatner's Chrysler 300 SRT8 as Shatner screams, "KHAAANNN!!!!"

andre1969

One advantage I could see with the Equinox, compared to the RAV-4, is interior room. I've driven and ridden in a few Equinoxes, and those suckers seem huge inside to me. Especially the backseat, which had legroom that would rival most full-sized SUVs. True, it doesn't offer a 3rd row, but if you want to get technical, that little thing in the back of the RAV doesn't qualify as a seat, so it doesn't, either. :P

I also have a feeling that a V-6 RAV-4 is going to have a much higher out-the-door price than any Equinox. But yeah, the aging 3.4 in the Equinox is its biggest flaw. I wish they'd put the 3.5 in it, and maybe make the 3.9 optional.

m1miata

OK, I'll bite. What is wrong with Laguna Seca Raceway?
-Loren

slate1

The reason Toyota and Honda top out on the "most complaints filed" list is because there are significantly more of them on the road.

Why are there more of them on the road, you ask??? I'll tell you - because the big-3 have yet to get their collective heads out of their rears long enough to realize what the US buyer demands.

I've tried to buy a domestic product - tried hard - even purchased a GM product a few years back. Honestly, I couldn't get rid of it fast enough. Constant problems - terrible build quality - it was a joke.

Here's the thing - when a domestic builder puts together a car that is:

- RELIABLE (as in Toyota / Honda reliable)
- Well put together (as in I don't want to hear every piece of cheap plastic in the interior squeak and scream with every bump in the road)
- Nicely finished - that means some decent interior materials that feel like they're not going to fall apart in my hands
- at a competitive price point

I'll buy it. Don't get me wrong, I think the US has come a long way with regards to drivetrain reliability. They've yet to get the material issues on the interiors and overall fit and finish down though.

Do as I did - go sit in a Chevy Cobalt, Dodge Caliber, Pontiac G6; then go sit in Honda Civic, Toyota Camry, or, best yet, a Mazda3 and you'll see what I'm talking about in a heartbeat. The big-3 are just cheaped out by comparison.

I have no doubt that the US will get it right one day - but it's not here yet. Closest I've seen to the "right stuff" is the Ford Fusion and that took Mazda's influence to get it right.

fintail

That was a cool ad, but I don't think the hosts will like it.

Good luck trying to sell a 5 year old Sable for more or less 10K...

captain2

The reason Toyota and Honda top out on the "most complaints filed" list is because there are significantly more of them on the road.
see post 2507 - exactly the opposite is true - by a substantial margin over the last 15 years. Would imagine though, that over the last 15 years that more GM/Ford/Chrysler products sold (even discounting those that end up in rental fleets etc.) than the efforts of the Japanese Big 3 combined. Might be closer than I think over the last 15, and certainly no contest over the last 5 - the Japanese manufacturers have certainly won the sedan wars.

bumpy

I really don't like Turn 8.

m1miata

The Corkscrew?

corvettefan427

So, I'm sure most of you know about the Camrys transmission problems. Well yesterday I saw a Camry ad with Toyotas slogan, moving forward, and I just laughed to myself and said, not with that transmission.

m1miata

Yeap, when Toyota has an occasional problem with a new car, I guess it does stand out more; it is so unlike the daily woes of some other car manufacturers we all know, and well, we all know.

Maybe Toyota is trying to level the playing field?

Never fear, for Hyundai is here!

I see the New Civic coupes and sedans everywhere. Talk about an instant hit. Seems like the coupe would make a cool little car for economy sporting. And the Hyundai Sonata a logical sedan choice if you want more room and power. If money doesn't matter, the Fusion may be another possible, since buying American is this forums focus. Let's see the Sonata is built in Alabama, and the Fusion is built in ......?

All the choice, excluding the 6 sp. in the Camry, be it an Accord, Impala, Altima, Sonata, Fusion, and such are all in the ballpark for value, if you come right down to it. Personally, within the ballpark, I still see the same winning teams, with Nissan moving down a notch due to some slipping in reliability, and Hyundai leaping over the competition and nearing a winning season. Well, if not the season, most improved award. No major strike-outs, unless you see the VWs as in trouble, or a possibility that Mitsubishi gets thrown out of the game, for lack of having the coach and support show for the game. (is your mitsubishi dealer nowhere to be found?)

Camry is new, the Yaris is new, and the Impala has a new dress to wear. Yippee! Still don't know what to think of the G6. Kinda liking the coupe. The sedan has something going on there making it look smaller than it really is. Not saying that is a bad thing. The line on the sides kinda make the car bent out of shape or something. Just looking odd, and I can not really put my finger on just why this is. New -old LaCrosse is not bad. Sort of a familiar look, though it is new - how can this be. For a luxury-cruiser-freeway decent car, it looks the part. Not bad. Just nothing too stylin'. The Camry, yes the Camry or Sonata, seem just as stylish.

I guess the Fusion, Mustang (going back to roots, ran out of new car ideas at Ford), and say a Monte Carlo may have some style which stands out. They say the Lucerne does -- not sure on that. From a distance, it could be an Altima, or half a dozen other cars. Kinda generic style of this era. Style stolen by Japan from VW/Audi, then taken by GM?
-Loren

carlisimo

Apparently, the Camry transmission problem is limited to exactly 160 cars. There's been much worse in the recent past, by Toyota, Honda, Chrysler, etc.

kdhspyder

160 vehicles is hardly a issue to be concerned about..

imidazol97

The allegedly only 160 would be important if one is yours. Add this to the other hesitation problems in the Avalon and Lexus discussion and the transmissions in the Toyo line don't seem so bulletproof.

There is always the logic that all cars have flaws. But it's odd I haven't seen the nightly local news lady twitch her head and say "Toyota has had to recall transmissions in cars, if they can find which ones have bad parts, to replace the transmissions. This makes 599,999 cars that Toyota has had to recall this year and in 10 years they have had to recall 5,999,999 cars."

Do you think it might be related to her driving a Camry the last time I saw her?

kdhspyder

There is always the logic that all cars have flaws

Absolutely correct. Here is a short list of recent models from Toyota that have made the news.
Sienna's
Prius'
Camry's

However in each case the problem was identified early, the affected vehicles adjusted, and the problem went away never to be heard of again. Likely this will be true of the 160 Camry transmissions as well.

The Avalon/Lexus transmission issue is just that, a performance issue. It's not a question of safety but to some drivers it is an annoyance on an expensive vehicle. It does need to be addressed in order to increase the enjoyment of driving.

Here is another viewpoint on this transmission issue. Other than the 160 mis-manufactured Camry's the new 5 & 6 spd electronic trannies are all pushing the envelope of auto design... for everyone. Getting it right is a big hurdle.

One could play safely in the yard and keep making 4spd AT's or keep pushing and try to advance the state of engineering. This is not a lot different than in other areas like passive and active safety equipment, hybrid technology, diesel technology, etc. where if you wait until something is perfected and take no chances then you end up stuck with 30 y.o. technology.

andre1969

that they could narrow a recall down to 160 cars! Now I could see narrowing it down to a week's or day's or a certain shift's production at a particular plant, but getting it down to a number that low seems awfully precise to me.

Just out of curiosity, how many cars could, say, one assembly line at a plant turn out in one day?

andre1969

one of the managers here has both a '94 or so Camry V-6/4-speed automatic, and a newer '05/06 with the V-6/5-speed automatic. He noticed the hesitation thing, but not until after I mentioned it after reading it from here.

He talked to his Toyota mechanic about it, and I think he said it had something to do with the throttle linkage being electronic these days, instead of mechanical?

kdhspyder

First disclaimer: I am not an auto mechanic so I am repeating what I read here and elsewhere. Those who are will understand the issue better than I do.

In the specific case of the 160 Camry's there is apparently a 'snap ring' that was misplaced during assembly in Japan. It seems that it will fail during the first 500 mi or so ( one report I think at 2000 mi ). There is a whole discussion on this here.

One of the top people at Toyota Motor Sales ( tmsusa ) got on the forum here for a week or so answered concerns and explained what was being done.

Production of the Gen6 Camry began in KY on Feb 13 and ramped up slowly through Feb to full production in April. This one lot seems to have been identified quickly by the VIN. Everything in every auto plant is numbered and tracked in order to identify suppliers, plant, shift, time, line etc. Nothing is left to imprecision.

Once one VIN reports a problem then it's easy to do a computer search, akin to google, and find common characteristics. When two then three then more are found it's like triangulation. It's fairly easy then if all the reports are about V6 XLE's to pinpoint when these were made then to drill down and identify every detail about every part and every supplier.

I was a sole supplier to Ford and Chrysler, luckily never with any recalls or quality issues like this but I've seen the process in action even 20 yrs ago. With technology today I can imagine it's nearly instantaneous to know everything once the upper and lower limits of an issue are identified.

grbeck

I'm amazed that the defect could be narrowed to 160 cars.

Still, both Toyota and Honda have admitted that they need to take steps to better address vehicle quality. The expansion of their lineups, along with introduction of new technology, is causing more glitches.

The mea culpa by both automakers in the face of these glitches is interesting. It's like the A+ student apologizing for getting a B+.

Meanwhile, we're supposed to cheer when the C- student improves to a B-...

kdhspyder

The 5 spd hesitation issue you mention andre is a programming issue it seems with many electronic rather than mechanical throttles/trannies. It's a hurdle and an annoyance since there is another variable in the vehicle beside the driver. An 'intelligent' and often annoying chip takes the driver's input ( foot pressure ) then along with current driving conditions interprets that into a level of fuel, air, timing, exhaust and specific gear that will be the best for fuel economy and performance.

In the VVT-i and the ETC-i the 'i' stands for 'intelligence' where the system will actually learn over time what are the most common driving characteristics of the primary driver; e.g. Highway, moderate acceleration, sea level, 87 octane. Given enough new inputs it will 'relearn' the characteristics for a different driver later on; ( move from the LA basin to Denver ).

These technologies have been progressively implemented on all Toyota's and recently Honda's since the late 90's. The basic idea is to try to elimininate as many mechanical parts as possible replacing them with electronic parts.

The first one of significance was the elimination of the distributor in all Toyota's in 1998/99; then VVT, then VVT-i, then ETC-i, ECT-i, recently electric power steering has been added.

The trend is away from mechanical with the potential for material failure to electronic which can be 'rebooted' from a master program. It also makes the entire system less complex in parts while more complex in programming.

imidazol97

I agree that they react quickly to reduce the PR negatives. They are helped by a lot of positive PR from the media and from the public who have bought cars from them and forgive things they won't forgive from some other manufacturers. It's a charisma factor.

Perhaps deserved.

The other brands have improved, although you'd never realize the gap had narrowed for many (not all?)other brands with the reputation of HoToy from the past years by reading CR and some other sources.

Getting it right is a hurdle and I would think Avalon Lexus version of Toyota would have gotten it right with the trans control problems they're having without the bad PR step.

Maybe I'll drive a new model Camry, Accord, Corolla, and Civic as a retired friend is starting a search to replace her Civic. It depends on how soon I can get her to start looking rather than waiting till the last minute to get a replacement when her car stays in Maine without her.