80+/week - sure there are a number of folks that do that one job or multiple jobs - a admirable and somewhat uncommon work ethic. I have dozens of employees and the more common attitude seems to revolve around 'what I owe them' - health insurance escalate 20-30% per year - so I am forced to ask for a small contribution OR I bonus on the basis of company performance, the co. has an off year, raises are somehow entitlements (and not earned)- in anyr case, the attitude I get is that these kinds of things are owed by the employer and never just a simple thank you for providing them the job in the first place! And the attitude seems worse the younger the employee.
I was watching the source of the clothing items I bought in 80s and 90s. Walmart was advertising that they specialized in Made in America; but then they got caught by one of the TV expose shows that they were actually selling some goods made in China.
So that label disappeared from their advertising. And then their state's governor made president and got free trade passed so all the businesses can move to China and export back here better than they can make it here!!!
Yes, most companies, now-a-days, are indeed global in reach.
It is good to have employment in all countries.
USA is not an island.
If you decide to buy a car made by GM or Ford, with all US content, it may be impossible to find. On the sticker it says where the parts came from percentage wise, and where it was assembled. So just buy the car which you feel meets your personal requirements, and enjoy the ride. -Loren
I feel it's more important to support the American worker. Whether he or she works for GM, Ford, Chrysler, Toyota, Nissan, etc. Some people would argue that if you support "foreign" all the profits go to overseas. How many plants have the big 3 built overseas? As long as Americans are working, I'm all for it. I don't like the idea of a Ford or GM being built in Mexico, and then sold here. Do the workers in Mexico make the same wages as the Americans? I doubt it. It seems the vehicle should be priced a lot less. Does that mean the GM's, Ford's are making more profit from the foreign plants? Just my thoughts on the matter.
Thank you I must agree. We have been vehicle shopping for vans and since we only buy american, we were looking at the Buick Terraza, well I went around toward the other end to open the liftgate, and on the backlight, engraved on the plastic light sadi Made In Mexico. I was outraged. That is just sad.
Just so that you are not too disappointed in the future. The detroiters have already made the decision to move their entire auto operations out of the US, except for 'vettes and Caddy's. The large trucks and SUV's will always stay but the small trucks will also move to Thailand or Mexico or China.
This is already mostly done, they just haven't told the American public about it yet.
There's nothing sinister here it's only about making profits and staying out of the way of the UAW, IBEW and Teamsters. One by one as vehicles age and are discontinued (Taurus/Sable) the production of the replacement vehicle (Fusion/Milan) will be moved offshore. It's only business nothing else. It has nothing to do with being American or supporting the US worker it's only about making the best return for the stockholders.
This is management's first and foremost goal. It is in every business.
The problem with turbo that hasn't really been fixed id heat, they get very hot. don't know what they do now but in the early 80's if you had a turbo and didn't want to burn the oil you ran synthetic and an oil cooler.
they had the turbo wagon in the late 80's early 90's the legacy wagon had a turbo version. in the mid 80's subaru went from a push rod engine to a overhead cam design that was plagued by drive belt problems. there where 2 belts if the belt that drove the passanger side can let go the engine ate itself as it would keep running on the driver side 2 cylenders where the distributor was, the early belts in cold climates where only good for about 40k miles. the new Saab wagon is actually a subaru with different front, rear and interior.
When one of the american companies builds a quality car with good gas mileage and is willing to warranty the car for 10 years 100,000 miles then I'll buy one. after getting shafted by Ford, Dodge/Chrysler, Chevrolet, and GMC on new vehicles they will not get my buisness till they can prove to me that they are no longer making crap. my very first car was a 1978 subaru gl sedan, I sold it at 300k miles because the floorboards had rusted out, the people I sold it to where still driving it at over 750k miles. the american cars/trucks I had didn't last to 40k miles without a major breakdown in the engine, tranny or rest of the driveline. no new car should have to have the entire exhaust system , rotors, struts , tie rods, intake manifold and other assorted parts replaced by 30k miles.
And please read carefully, they don't show American workers as inefficient as some thought last time, but show the equivilent domestic labor in each brand. :surprise:
I think what this means is, that for the number of vehicles the US automakers are selling, they have too many workers building them. This is why GM is not profitable. If they could sell all the cars that the workers could actually build, then they would be profitable.
Hard to say one way or another. I guess I could throw a bunch of numbers up here on the board and say, prove them wrong. Unless you have confirmed numbers, gathered by a group which does not have a bias, or monies provided by those in which the study is all about, I have no way of proving or disproving any figures at all. Could be spot on, bent, or fabricated. Do you know?
This is interesting as quoted: the Level Field Institute, a group founded by retired Ford, GM and Chrysler workers. The group wouldn't identify which companies have funded the effort, but Ford spokesman Mike Moran confirmed the Dearborn automaker had provided financial support for the group. .... So the Level Field Institute is an unbiased source?
And there is no Big Three. Chrysler is wholly owned by DamlierChrysler of Germany. Well, as far as I know it is.
With all the foreign cars running around California, the data of 8 in 10 jobs are supported by the Big Two plus One figure is indeed interesting. Looks like it takes 4:1 ratio to build and support the making of a car. So many of the Toyotas, Hondas, and now Hyundais are made in USA, with US parts, it is hard to believe the figures which show so many more employees and businesses are supported by US makes. I see most US make cars are built in Canada, and now Mexico. But that is just an observation. No way to confirm or deny the report you linked up to in DETROIT NEWS. Something about that name
Just bring on the cars. People want gotta have cars. I don't think Japan has too many cars which excite people all that much. Heck, they dropped the Prelude, and Celica, so why not make a compact, not sub-compact, sporty car? If it was RWD, like a Miata, only larger, as in good trunk, more wiggle room inside the car, and a little taller, people would buy it. Heck and neat coupe, like the good ol'd days of Novas, built off the CTS chassis. Just a little something to spark some sales. The G6 and Buick LaCrosse may be technically an OK car, but they have that same old GM look about them. People want new. Even the boring Camry has a style change. Love it or not, it is new. Kinda liked the Fusion, until a magazine article stated how the front looked like a giant disposable razor blade in the front. Now I am thinking I may have nightmares about being chased by my car by a giant razor, if I buy one :surprise: On a serious note, Ford Fusion and the rest, look like the start of something new. Even if you do not like the Ford 500, it is something different. GM is looking tired. It is NOT that people nessasarilly hate GM, as some have owned cool GM cars, like the Cutlass 442, but rather the lack of product. Oh yeah, we need a longer warranty. -Loren
While I personally would prefer that the GMs of the world would build the same quality of vehicles that the 'Japanese' do - I resent the implication in this 'Detroit News' article that I should simply because GM (or Ford or Chrysler)is overemployeed and inefficient. Toyota makes $10 billion a year, GM loses that much and the reason is GM is simply overburdened in their own 'system' and makes a bunch of inferior cars/trucks the public doesn't want and that they have to 'give away' to 'sell'. And this would be the consumer's fault?
I agree with captain2.. Americans are smarter than that and are going to buy the best product they can with their hard earned dollars. GM/Ford will continue to lose market share until they can demonstrate the ability to produce better vehicles that can compete with the likes of Toyota/Honda/etc with regards to engineering, fit and finish, reliability, safety features, and resale value.
They need to build trust through steadily improving their model lines each year instead of killing them off and starting another. The Camry/Accord's reputation did not just build over night, Toyota and Honda have evolved the model lineup year after year...
For years, GM/Ford have trumpeted the "Buy American" line, this is nothing new. The difference is that they are now under fire since they are looking to move more and more production out of North America (thanks in part to bad deals with the UAW) while Toyota/Honda/Hyundai, etc are looking to expand in North America.
You said: I think many people out there wouldn't mind driving a Chevrolet, Ford, or Dodge if those vehicles were actually up to par with the stuff Japan is putting out. I don't think I would consider an Uplander or Freestar as a replacement for my Odyssey unless the rebates and deals got really big and good because the Sienna and Odyssey are just far better minivans. (albeit at a severe premium)
I say: I think people are being dooped into thinking that American cars are unreliable. As with any manufacturer certain models of cars are pieces of junk. Look at the Honda Passport, what a piece of junk. The Honda Ody is a transmission nightmare and the Siennas are sludge monsters (I have friends with both, but since their problems happened under warranty they claim their cars to still be the best things on the road. I beg to differ.).
My neighbor has a dodge caravan that has over 120k miles on it with hardly any problems. My sister in law had (she traded it in still running strong) a Bonneville with around 250k on it. My brother finally killed his Buick Skylark with over 220k miles on it. It is very common for the 3.8L engines that GM makes to get at least 150k, if not over 200k. I have seen it time and time again.
My entire point is a person who really does their homework can find reliable cars either American or not, just as they can find a unreliable car AMerican or not.
Watch for coolant going bad. Evidently, bad coolant leads to manifold gasket failures. Overall, with proper car, the old pushrods should last for years - no doubt. If the GM cars compare in HP, finish, content ( side air bags, etc. ), smoothness, looks, drivability and such, why not give them a go. At least a test drive. If we are talking just surviving, why not just buy a Crown Vic, as they are pretty tuff.
Everyone is looking for several things in a car. No two people seem to see it in the same way, of course. People have different needs, and expectations for what they buy.
The car companies will try to draw you in with different approaches. Looking at say Hyundai, in the simplest way, as if I never shopped or owned a car before, it appears to me as an innocent buyer, they got the proper elements. The cars, as in new, the engines are new with lots of HP in the V6s, and all the safety stuff comes with the car. Now I look at the competition here in domestic cars, and what do I see. I mean to say, what strikes me as better than the Hyundai? Sell me on another car. I of course, have owned many cars, and do my test drives before buying. But what I am saying, is that the whole package which a clever Korean company put together, appears, at least on the surface, to be killer good. Killer good, as in stealin' away the GM and Ford buyers with content and warranty on their cars. Like I said, this is on the surface. Always good to dig really deep into everything you can find out about a car, and its dealerships, before venturing in. But the draw is there for Hyundai. Many will at least be drawn in by new cars, with content, and backing. It will be at least a couple of their cars on my list to test drive. And yes, I may test drive GM and Fords. Did test the New Stang, and I was not overly impressed. -Loren
I have to agree with you about the owner can find the right cars and I also think the owner and their car makes the car last or not last. Put a Honda in the hands of a careless owner 10 years ago and you have a car that's junk at 125K; owner gives extra good service, oil changes, repairs, etc., you have decent car left. Same for any other brands.
3800s are considered good for 200K plus around here. Neighbor deals in buying higher mileage ones, cleaning them up, and reselling them. Mine had a starter go out at 138K; he said that's unusual. Usually didn't happen til 200K area; but car had lots of short trips when new since my wife drove it.
>Honda Ody is a transmission nightmare and the Siennas are sludge monsters (I have friends with both, but since their problems happened under warranty they claim their cars to still be the best things on the road. I beg to differ.).
Repairs/replacements under warranty only get you past the warranty period for the same to fail when you have to pay for it. A Honda with 110K and a bad trans that had been replaced 3 times earlier under Honda's bill still is a bad transmission bill.
>Watch for coolant going bad. Evidently, bad coolant leads to manifold gasket failures.
Right on target. The key is maintenance. Replace the coolant from new at 2 years/36K mi just like regular stuff. IF there really is a connection with gasket deterioration, that will stop it (some say yes, some say no).
sc00bs: Look at the Honda Passport, what a piece of junk.
The Honda Passport was developed and manufactured by Isuzu. It was a Rodeo with Honda badges. As soon as Honda had its own SUV (the Pilot), it dumped the Passport.
The Isuzu Rodeo itself consisted of a lot of parts sharing with the small blazer at the time (Not the K5) The 2.8 residing under the hood as well as the auto tranny being the big ones as well as suspension architecture.
I know because I shopped them in 94 and the dealer gave me the option of either the Isuzu 4 or a Chevy 2.8l V6.
In that, you are wrong. It shows desperation. People need content, for a good price. Style doesn't hurt. Warranty sweetens the deal. A scheme, when you drill down to its effective value, and think it over for a few minutes, always becomes transparent.
I think I liked GMs plan D or was that F or G. Anyway the plan to lower the price on cars and trucks to their real value. Maybe Hyundai plan on giving content and warranty would work, but I doubt it. GM should go for style, uniqueness, and up the content to near Hyundai, with a warranty of say 5years, and price cars within a couple thousand of net worth. I think GM needs more style and flair than does someone like Hyundai to compete. They need to go head2head with the likes of Chrysler, and side step Honda, Toyota and Hyundai with super styled cars at a reasonable price, with decent warranties.
Winning just one head to head review in a magazine with other like cars wouldn't hurt. Have any GM cars done this? Maybe the CTS? How about a car of the year? No not the Chevy Citation -Loren
It was suppose to last 150K miles. I think if people replace it every 30 to 50K miles, it is OK. The wrong stuff added, I guess can really cause havoc. I would imagine that having Mr. Goodwrench change the fluids on a V6 or a Northstar may be the thing to do. Then they could not say you abused your baby. Really important on Northstar engines to use only the right coolant, from what I hear. Ah, but that is always true, to use the recommended fluids on all makes. . -Loren
My uncle replaced the coolant in his '97 Silverado just shy of the 100,000 mile mark. Unfortunatley, he wasn't thinking, did it himself, and replaced it with the green stuff! Oops!
Luckily, it came up in conversation soon after he did it, so I was able to warn him to get that stuff out and put the pink stuff back in, that you CAN'T mix them! He did, but I'm sure that since he did it himself, there's no way he could've gotten it all out.
Anyway, that was almost 3 years ago now, so I guess if something was going to happen, it would have by now. :surprise:
Who says that GM doesn't build the same quality as the Japanese. what hat proof is there of that captain. And as for that article maybe its just your implication and not really the articles intent to make everybody by GM because there in trouble. Not a bad system that was at one time accounted for nearly 10% of GDP here in our country. They are adjusting to the times. I have sold both Japanese and GM, and the verdict they both have thriving service departments that constantly fixing vehicles. Kind of funny that the public doesn't want our product because last I checked we still hold over 30% of domestic market share. Get your facts straight before you expose your ignorance.
Plenty of data over the years to prove that Japan makes do hold up better. Why would GM and Ford reference this themselves over the years by saying that they were striving to achieve Japanese make quality? That has been the goal, they say, for years now to make as good a product. Look at reports from which ever source you wish to believe in, over the last two or more decades and Japan at the top. -Loren
Lemko, he probably got that green stuff out as best he could, but I'm sure that, short of taking it to the mechanic, there's no way to truly get it all out. I'm guessing my uncle drained his radiator, filled it up with water, ran it a bit, drained it again, repeated, and then finally filled up with the pink stuff. Running the water through it would've diluted it, and draining it and running water through again would've diluted it more, but I doubt he was able to get all of the green stuff out.
I guess he'll find out how bad it really is the next time he changes his coolant! I'm going to try to talk him into changing it early, instead of waiting another 5-year interval (which would put it about 2 years away)
I have been in the process of picking up a new car (my 1996 Accord DX has over 167K, and while it could probably give me a little more, I'm ready for something new)
Here's what I've seen out looking -
Ford Fusion - 30% North American Content Hyundai Sonata - 28% North American Content Honda Accord - 70% North American Content
I'm just about ready to pull the trigger on a new Accord.
Its not just reliability... I just recently shopped for a new minivan, and the GM offerings were pathetic by comparison to the Honda, Toyota, and new Hyundai/Kia minivans.
In terms of overall engineering (engine, handling, ride, etc) the GM offerings were not close, and the Korean fit and finish was even better (actually almost on par with Honda/Toyota).
When I was shopping for a sedan in 04, there was no comparison between GM and the Japanese and European automobiles. Maybe that gap has narrowed slightly in 06, but look at the sales of the Camry and Accord last month. The new Chevy Impala is not even close. Why do you think that is? There are more Chevy dealers than Toyota or Honda? Are buyers just ignorant, or could it be that the Japanese cars are superior. When is the last time GM has won an award for a family sedan from a reputable third party site (Motor Trend, Car and Driver, Edmunds, Consumer Reports, etc)? What about Toyota/Honda? Seems like the Accord/Camry are either the winner, or a finalist...
My 'ignorance' is simply based on 30 years of owning (and repairing)dozens of cars both of American and Japanese manufacture and sorry to say that although the quality differences have shrunk a tad since let's say the 80's, there is still no contest. And this, of course, would not be just me - reference about any consumer or auto mag. you will see the same sort of opinions and statistics. Sorry to hear that you are having to foist those GM cars on an unsuspecting public. When was the last time a Camry, for example, could be bought from any dealer at 25-30% discounts (or other perks) or had to be given away to rental car cos. (or institutional bid clients) so that all this production could be claimed as 'market share'? Would suggest to you that if you do work at a GM dealership, you are not really selling anything - just 'buying' business with price instead of quality. Ignorance, BTW, is bliss
IMO - of course. Detroit mfgrs. need to stop worrying about Toyota/Honda/Nissan etc. and concentrate on doing something better what than the Koreans are doing. The Fusions and Malibus of the world can not even compare with the Sonata never mind the Camrys/Accords/Altimas. Not to mention things like the Azera, the Santa Fe, the Tucson, the Elantra/Tiburon etc.. Ford and GM only wish they could have a product line like that. The 'Japanese' product will be priced higher, as it should - but the Korean product will get down into that same deeply discounted territory that Ford and Chevy are and hold similar minimal resale values. The jury is still out, of course, on Hyundai's improved quality - but can it be any worse than most of what Ford/GM/Chrysler are selling?
Who says that GM doesn't build the same quality as the Japanese. what hat proof is there of that captain.
Consumer Reports survey Consumer Reports reviews Edmunds Reviews JD Power Car and Driver, R&T, Motor Trend reviews The buying public, by voting with their market share trends. The buying public, by deciding on the value of used cars (GM vs. Japanese makes depreciation)
Is that enough evidence? Or are all of these part of a big conspiracy?
Kind of funny that the public doesn't want our product because last I checked we still hold over 30% of domestic market share. Get your facts straight before you expose your ignorance.
GMs market share is well under 30%. Their domestic market share includes fleets. People who choose to buy cars (not trucks) with their own money mostly don't buy GM. And that share has been declining for a long time.
From a person who has purchased mostly GM vehicles (Chevys and Oldsmobiles) for 30 years, I will make the following observations.
1) I think that GM could potentially produce a car that would be as good as a Camry or an Accord but that would require a total commitment from the manufacturing employees. Even despite all the press, somd GM employees still don't get it.
2) I think that the quality gap between GM and the imports has shrunk over the years.
3) Since GM has refused to control their hourly compensation costs, in order to remain competitive, they have to cut corners in their product. They select their suppliers more on cost than quality. And it really shows.
4) If GM would put out a world class sedan in 2007, I would guarantee that the same model would be cheapened from bumper to bumper with in five years of launch. Everytime I have bought a model that I really liked, the next generaltion was significantly cheapened.
5) Finally, very few people get excited over about 75% of the GM vehicles. That is pretty bad.
Compared a GM plant and a Toyota plant in Texas. Hourly labor cost at Toyota plant: $35 (non-union) Hourly labor cost at GM plant: $81.18 (UAW)
Number of workers: 1600 at Toyota and 2800 at GM for the same installed capacity of 200,000/year.
Labor cost per vehicle: $800 for Toyota and $1800 for GM.
UAW and the Unions are killing American cars. There is no investment in R&D, the material budget gets reduced and let us not even talk about fit and finish of the $81.18/hour worker.
Assuming these figures are accurate and I don't see why not since they parallel other reports, it further illustrates a major problem facing all the detroiters. Assuming that the WSJ article was comparing two truck factories, San Antonio is for certain, the detroiters can absorb a $1000 labor differntial on their hugely profitable truck business, continue to making them with the unions and still be fantastically profitable.
They cannot however give up this much advantage in a $17000 auto. These vehicles all have to be moved offshore, made with less expensive labor, in 'state-of-the-art' new factories in order for GM/Ford/DC to compete. $30,000 and up vehicles such as trucks, SUV's, Caddy's and 'vettes will continue but not the basic 'appliance' auto or even small truck ( see Ranger ) will not.
R&D and design will continue ( possibly not all in the US )because it will be directed to having the smaller vehicles built outside the influence of the unions.
The unions know this also. They see what's been happening over the last 5-6 yrs. If in the next negotiation they hold fast to what they now have what they are saying to the 'auto-making' members is: "Here is your layoff slip ( we just don't know when you'll actually get it ) because we have to protect the 'truck/SUV-making members'. Oh BTW 40% of you making parts for the autos are also likely to go soon.".
Comments
And the attitude seems worse the younger the employee.
So that label disappeared from their advertising. And then their state's governor made president and got free trade passed so all the businesses can move to China and export back here better than they can make it here!!!
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
It is good to have employment in all countries.
USA is not an island.
If you decide to buy a car made by GM or Ford, with all US content, it may be impossible to find. On the sticker it says where the parts came from percentage wise, and where it was assembled. So just buy the car which you feel meets your personal requirements, and enjoy the ride.
-Loren
As long as Americans are working, I'm all for it. I don't like the idea of a Ford or GM being built in Mexico, and then sold here. Do the workers in Mexico make the same wages as the Americans? I doubt it. It seems the vehicle should be priced a lot less. Does that mean the GM's, Ford's are making more profit from the foreign plants?
Just my thoughts on the matter.
We have been vehicle shopping for vans and since we only buy american, we were looking at the Buick Terraza, well I went around toward the other end to open the liftgate, and on the backlight, engraved on the plastic light sadi Made In Mexico. I was outraged. That is just sad.
This is already mostly done, they just haven't told the American public about it yet.
There's nothing sinister here it's only about making profits and staying out of the way of the UAW, IBEW and Teamsters. One by one as vehicles age and are discontinued (Taurus/Sable) the production of the replacement vehicle (Fusion/Milan) will be moved offshore. It's only business nothing else. It has nothing to do with being American or supporting the US worker it's only about making the best return for the stockholders.
This is management's first and foremost goal. It is in every business.
don't know what they do now but in the early 80's if you had a turbo and didn't want to burn the oil you ran synthetic and an oil cooler.
the legacy wagon had a turbo version.
in the mid 80's subaru went from a push rod engine to a overhead cam design that was plagued by drive belt problems.
there where 2 belts if the belt that drove the passanger side can let go the engine ate itself as it would keep running on the driver side 2 cylenders where the distributor was, the early belts in cold climates where only good for about 40k miles.
the new Saab wagon is actually a subaru with different front, rear and interior.
after getting shafted by Ford, Dodge/Chrysler, Chevrolet, and GMC on new vehicles they will not get my buisness till they can prove to me that they are no longer making crap.
my very first car was a 1978 subaru gl sedan, I sold it at 300k miles because the floorboards had rusted out, the people I sold it to where still driving it at over 750k miles. the american cars/trucks I had didn't last to 40k miles without a major breakdown in the engine, tranny or rest of the driveline.
no new car should have to have the entire exhaust system , rotors, struts , tie rods, intake manifold and other assorted parts replaced by 30k miles.
GM
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=115463
Toyota
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=115464
Rocky
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060512/AUTO01/605120414/1148-
See also:
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060512/BUSINESS01/605120320/10- 14]\
And please read carefully, they don't show American workers as inefficient as some thought last time, but show the equivilent domestic labor in each brand. :surprise:
Within 5-7 years 'made in the USA' will mean Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, BMW, Mercedes and the other transplants.
GM, Ford and DC are working quickly to shift production out of UAW plants. Most vehicle parts production for GM/Ford/DC has already left the USA.
I expect Cadillac, Hummer, Corvette and full size SUV and pickup lines will stay in the USA for a few more years.
This is interesting as quoted:
the Level Field Institute, a group founded by retired Ford, GM and Chrysler workers. The group wouldn't identify which companies have funded the effort, but Ford spokesman Mike Moran confirmed the Dearborn automaker had provided financial support for the group.
.... So the Level Field Institute is an unbiased source?
And there is no Big Three. Chrysler is wholly owned by DamlierChrysler of Germany. Well, as far as I know it is.
With all the foreign cars running around California, the data of 8 in 10 jobs are supported by the Big Two plus One figure is indeed interesting. Looks like it takes 4:1 ratio to build and support the making of a car. So many of the Toyotas, Hondas, and now Hyundais are made in USA, with US parts, it is hard to believe the figures which show so many more employees and businesses are supported by US makes. I see most US make cars are built in Canada, and now Mexico. But that is just an observation. No way to confirm or deny the report you linked up to in DETROIT NEWS. Something about that name
Just bring on the cars. People want gotta have cars. I don't think Japan has too many cars which excite people all that much. Heck, they dropped the Prelude, and Celica, so why not make a compact, not sub-compact, sporty car?
If it was RWD, like a Miata, only larger, as in good trunk, more wiggle room inside the car, and a little taller, people would buy it. Heck and neat coupe, like the good ol'd days of Novas, built off the CTS chassis. Just a little something to spark some sales. The G6 and Buick LaCrosse may be technically an OK car, but they have that same old GM look about them. People want new. Even the boring Camry has a style change. Love it or not, it is new. Kinda liked the Fusion, until a magazine article stated how the front looked like a giant disposable razor blade in the front. Now I am thinking I may have nightmares about being chased by my car by a giant razor, if I buy one :surprise:
On a serious note, Ford Fusion and the rest, look like the start of something new. Even if you do not like the Ford 500, it is something different. GM is looking tired. It is NOT that people nessasarilly hate GM, as some have owned cool GM cars, like the Cutlass 442, but rather the lack of product. Oh yeah, we need a longer warranty.
-Loren
They need to build trust through steadily improving their model lines each year instead of killing them off and starting another. The Camry/Accord's reputation did not just build over night, Toyota and Honda have evolved the model lineup year after year...
For years, GM/Ford have trumpeted the "Buy American" line, this is nothing new. The difference is that they are now under fire since they are looking to move more and more production out of North America (thanks in part to bad deals with the UAW) while Toyota/Honda/Hyundai, etc are looking to expand in North America.
The '% US content' on window stickers keeps rising for import brands and shrinking for domestic brands.
As a customer, I would like to see great products from all manufacturers.
Many great products in competition will keep prices in line.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060523/ap_on_bi_ge/gm_gas_rebate_2
I don't think I would consider an Uplander or Freestar as a replacement for my Odyssey unless the rebates and deals got really big and good because the Sienna and Odyssey are just far better minivans. (albeit at a severe premium)
I say: I think people are being dooped into thinking that American cars are unreliable. As with any manufacturer certain models of cars are pieces of junk. Look at the Honda Passport, what a piece of junk. The Honda Ody is a transmission nightmare and the Siennas are sludge monsters (I have friends with both, but since their problems happened under warranty they claim their cars to still be the best things on the road. I beg to differ.).
My neighbor has a dodge caravan that has over 120k miles on it with hardly any problems. My sister in law had (she traded it in still running strong) a Bonneville with around 250k on it. My brother finally killed his Buick Skylark with over 220k miles on it. It is very common for the 3.8L engines that GM makes to get at least 150k, if not over 200k. I have seen it time and time again.
My entire point is a person who really does their homework can find reliable cars either American or not, just as they can find a unreliable car AMerican or not.
Everyone is looking for several things in a car. No two people seem to see it in the same way, of course. People have different needs, and expectations for what they buy.
The car companies will try to draw you in with different approaches. Looking at say Hyundai, in the simplest way, as if I never shopped or owned a car before, it appears to me as an innocent buyer, they got the proper elements. The cars, as in new, the engines are new with lots of HP in the V6s, and all the safety stuff comes with the car. Now I look at the competition here in domestic cars, and what do I see. I mean to say, what strikes me as better than the Hyundai? Sell me on another car. I of course, have owned many cars, and do my test drives before buying. But what I am saying, is that the whole package which a clever Korean company put together, appears, at least on the surface, to be killer good. Killer good, as in stealin' away the GM and Ford buyers with content and warranty on their cars. Like I said, this is on the surface. Always good to dig really deep into everything you can find out about a car, and its dealerships, before venturing in. But the draw is there for Hyundai. Many will at least be drawn in by new cars, with content, and backing. It will be at least a couple of their cars on my list to test drive. And yes, I may test drive GM and Fords. Did test the New Stang, and I was not overly impressed. -Loren
3800s are considered good for 200K plus around here. Neighbor deals in buying higher mileage ones, cleaning them up, and reselling them. Mine had a starter go out at 138K; he said that's unusual. Usually didn't happen til 200K area; but car had lots of short trips when new since my wife drove it.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Repairs/replacements under warranty only get you past the warranty period for the same to fail when you have to pay for it. A Honda with 110K and a bad trans that had been replaced 3 times earlier under Honda's bill still is a bad transmission bill.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Right on target. The key is maintenance. Replace the coolant from new at 2 years/36K mi just like regular stuff. IF there really is a connection with gasket deterioration, that will stop it (some say yes, some say no).
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The Honda Passport was developed and manufactured by Isuzu. It was a Rodeo with Honda badges. As soon as Honda had its own SUV (the Pilot), it dumped the Passport.
I know because I shopped them in 94 and the dealer gave me the option of either the Isuzu 4 or a Chevy 2.8l V6.
Edit: It might have been a 3.1 for the Rodeo and 2.8 for the Trooper.
Rocky
I think I liked GMs plan D or was that F or G. Anyway the plan to lower the price on cars and trucks to their real value. Maybe Hyundai plan on giving content and warranty would work, but I doubt it. GM should go for style, uniqueness, and up the content to near Hyundai, with a warranty of say 5years, and price cars within a couple thousand of net worth. I think GM needs more style and flair than does someone like Hyundai to compete. They need to go head2head with the likes of Chrysler, and side step Honda, Toyota and Hyundai with super styled cars at a reasonable price, with decent warranties.
Winning just one head to head review in a magazine with other like cars wouldn't hurt. Have any GM cars done this? Maybe the CTS? How about a car of the year? No not the Chevy Citation
-Loren
Luckily, it came up in conversation soon after he did it, so I was able to warn him to get that stuff out and put the pink stuff back in, that you CAN'T mix them! He did, but I'm sure that since he did it himself, there's no way he could've gotten it all out.
Anyway, that was almost 3 years ago now, so I guess if something was going to happen, it would have by now. :surprise:
Actually it is more like 25% and shrinking.
-Loren
I guess he'll find out how bad it really is the next time he changes his coolant! I'm going to try to talk him into changing it early, instead of waiting another 5-year interval (which would put it about 2 years away)
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Here's what I've seen out looking -
Ford Fusion - 30% North American Content
Hyundai Sonata - 28% North American Content
Honda Accord - 70% North American Content
I'm just about ready to pull the trigger on a new Accord.
In terms of overall engineering (engine, handling, ride, etc) the GM offerings were not close, and the Korean fit and finish was even better (actually almost on par with Honda/Toyota).
When I was shopping for a sedan in 04, there was no comparison between GM and the Japanese and European automobiles. Maybe that gap has narrowed slightly in 06, but look at the sales of the Camry and Accord last month. The new Chevy Impala is not even close. Why do you think that is? There are more Chevy dealers than Toyota or Honda? Are buyers just ignorant, or could it be that the Japanese cars are superior. When is the last time GM has won an award for a family sedan from a reputable third party site (Motor Trend, Car and Driver, Edmunds, Consumer Reports, etc)? What about Toyota/Honda? Seems like the Accord/Camry are either the winner, or a finalist...
Sorry to hear that you are having to foist those GM cars on an unsuspecting public. When was the last time a Camry, for example, could be bought from any dealer at 25-30% discounts (or other perks) or had to be given away to rental car cos. (or institutional bid clients) so that all this production could be claimed as 'market share'?
Would suggest to you that if you do work at a GM dealership, you are not really selling anything - just 'buying' business with price instead of quality.
Ignorance, BTW, is bliss
Detroit mfgrs. need to stop worrying about Toyota/Honda/Nissan etc. and concentrate on doing something better what than the Koreans are doing. The Fusions and Malibus of the world can not even compare with the Sonata never mind the Camrys/Accords/Altimas. Not to mention things like the Azera, the Santa Fe, the Tucson, the Elantra/Tiburon etc.. Ford and GM only wish they could have a product line like that. The 'Japanese' product will be priced higher, as it should - but the Korean product will get down into that same deeply discounted territory that Ford and Chevy are and hold similar minimal resale values. The jury is still out, of course, on Hyundai's improved quality - but can it be any worse than most of what Ford/GM/Chrysler are selling?
Consumer Reports survey
Consumer Reports reviews
Edmunds Reviews
JD Power
Car and Driver, R&T, Motor Trend reviews
The buying public, by voting with their market share trends.
The buying public, by deciding on the value of used cars (GM vs. Japanese makes depreciation)
Is that enough evidence? Or are all of these part of a big conspiracy?
Kind of funny that the public doesn't want our product because last I checked we still hold over 30% of domestic market share. Get your facts straight before you expose your ignorance.
GMs market share is well under 30%. Their domestic market share includes fleets. People who choose to buy cars (not trucks) with their own money mostly don't buy GM. And that share has been declining for a long time.
1) I think that GM could potentially produce a car that would be as good as a Camry or an Accord but that would require a total commitment from the manufacturing employees. Even despite all the press, somd GM employees still don't get it.
2) I think that the quality gap between GM and the imports has shrunk over the years.
3) Since GM has refused to control their hourly compensation costs, in order to remain competitive, they have to cut corners in their product. They select their suppliers more on cost than quality. And it really shows.
4) If GM would put out a world class sedan in 2007, I would guarantee that the same model would be cheapened from bumper to bumper with in five years of launch. Everytime I have bought a model that I really liked, the next generaltion was significantly cheapened.
5) Finally, very few people get excited over about 75% of the GM vehicles. That is pretty bad.
Hourly labor cost at Toyota plant: $35 (non-union)
Hourly labor cost at GM plant: $81.18 (UAW)
Number of workers: 1600 at Toyota and 2800 at GM for the same installed capacity of 200,000/year.
Labor cost per vehicle: $800 for Toyota and $1800 for GM.
UAW and the Unions are killing American cars. There is no investment in R&D, the material budget gets reduced and let us not even talk about fit and finish of the $81.18/hour worker.
They cannot however give up this much advantage in a $17000 auto. These vehicles all have to be moved offshore, made with less expensive labor, in 'state-of-the-art' new factories in order for GM/Ford/DC to compete. $30,000 and up vehicles such as trucks, SUV's, Caddy's and 'vettes will continue but not the basic 'appliance' auto or even small truck ( see Ranger ) will not.
R&D and design will continue ( possibly not all in the US )because it will be directed to having the smaller vehicles built outside the influence of the unions.
The unions know this also. They see what's been happening over the last 5-6 yrs. If in the next negotiation they hold fast to what they now have what they are saying to the 'auto-making' members is:
"Here is your layoff slip ( we just don't know when you'll actually get it ) because we have to protect the 'truck/SUV-making members'. Oh BTW 40% of you making parts for the autos are also likely to go soon.".