if your $70K average teacher is in California (you didn't say where 'here' is), then you reinforce my point - salaries are relative to area costs of living.
That depends on how you define "superior." I'll bet for most buyers in the early 1970s, a Skylark was probably a better all-around buy.
Not that I don't like those Opels - the Mantas were probably the best-looking sporty coupes of the 1970s, and the 1900 sedans and wagons were also handsome machines. But they didn't offer the room, comfort (good air conditioning) and reliability of a Skylark sedan or wagon. They were a good second car, but I wouldn't want one for my main means of transport, especially for a family.
point of my post was that $70k for someone that works about 6 to 7 hours a day for 9 months with 2 weeks off for christmas then week off for spring break and all the other vacations during the school year is making a hell of a good salery, then take into account at schools I went to student aids grade all the papers that is even less work that the teacher does. looking at my nephews school calander teacher s work 8 months when you take all vacations into account, so income comes to $8,750 per month that they work, how many people do you that make that much per month that they work?
What air conditioning? Roll down the two windows air? My Manta Rallye had a bad engine, so it's life with me was limited to about three years. Had the engine been OK, the rest of the car was really tight. Cool little cars. Well, for one or two. Nope not a family type car.
Let's see the last i4 engine RWD affordable car in a coupe was the Nissan 240SX. And it got a bit pricey over time. Can not think of anything in the $20K range, other than the Mustang now. And you go back to 2002, there was the Camaro. Camaro had Mustang beat for engine choices back in those last years. GM just left the car go, with little advertising and updating, it quietly left the scene. Kinda sad. 200HP and 30MPG car for under $20K which looks better than most anything out there today. How about the V8 choices? The Camaro and Firebirds looked pretty awesome, though the Firebird with the extreme nostrils on the hood was a bit much. A standard bird though looked slick. Not being able to see any hood out front is a little scary, but oh well.... and then the strange footwell area bump on the passenger side was odd. All in all though impressive looks. -Loren
If I hadn't broken my back and neck I would have, have had 3 major surgeries on my spine so far, no way at present that I am able to take collage classes, and the future doesn't look any better. as for the teachers how can they teach what they don't know, if they can't pass the tests that they require the students to pass how can they expect to teach others. I have had teachers that admitted that they knew nothing about the subject, the class did the best it could but we didn't finish the book and from what I see from kids now they are really going be screwed when they get out of the schools here. When I got of school I could rebuild a car from the ground up, I could rebuild a carb in a few minuets and do a tuneup with a timing light and tachometer. I knew how to build a house from the ground up plumb it and wire it, the PC was just coming out and I learned what I could on those also. during the summer I learned how to drive my Dad's old 1964 Dodge D500 flatbed dump truck (a very reliable truck) and run a 1968 International Harvester frontloader/back hoe. Kids now don't know how to use a tape measure or skill saw, they couldn't find the dipstick to check the oil or check tire pressure on their car, most can't even balance a check book without a calculator, They don't want to get their hands dirty and do some good old manual labor.
I always marvel at the criticism ability of those who had no connection to education. I've seen teachers in wheelchairs so don't let disability stop you from getting in there and showing everybody how it should have been done. My wife retired after many years of education in public schools. I _know_ what goes on there. The older generation always talks what they think they youth haven't learned. I just saw the local school's 13 valedictorians on the front page, more than half of whom are going into medicine. Guess they need to know how to use a skillsaw?
The same criticism occurs in the forum here on GM and Will Styling Save GM discussions; everyone knows how the big offices should have been doing things. I wonder why the ones with all the afterknowledge weren't in there doing the job to begin with? They could have had GM top car maker in the world (maybe they are?).
is a teacher for the county public schools, and I don't think he even makes $50K per year. Sure, he does get that nice long summer break, but during the school year, he puts in more than 6-7 hours per day. In addition to the time he actually spends in the classroom teaching, he spends untold hours at home grading papers, doing lesson plans, etc.
Plus, they force him to keep continuing his education. He has a Master's degree now. Now in this case, that's hardly a bad thing, continuing your education. But it's still an extra commitment of your time, something that many people may not have.
They could have had GM top car maker in the world (maybe they are?). total vehicle sales - including trucks, vans, SUVs etc and including fleet sales GM is still no. 1 although not by much. If you are simply considering car sales (less fleet) - Toyota surpassed GM quite a while ago. One possibility for GM occurs to me to get out of car production all together - they lose their arss 'selling' Cobalts/Impalas etc. with large rebates and incentives or giving them away to the rental car cos. etc. They can still do relatively well in the truck/SUV end of things where their products are certainly more competitive. May cost a bunch of jobs but doesn't 'downsizing usually do that anyway?
Regarding teachers in general, I will say this. The great teachers are grossly underpaid for what they do. The terrible teachers are grossly overpaid for what they do. the problem is that teachers in the same district with the same years of service generally are paid the same.
Most teachers here need to be fired, they had the teachers take the exit exam all students have to take to pass, 65% of the students failed and 80% of the teachers failed, some teachers here make over $100k a year, starting is around $45k per year and average is $70k per year + loads of benefits.
We have a web site in our state where you can look up salaries of any teacher or administrator. The waste that I wonder about is the "amount" of administrators and their salaries of which many make more than tenured/experienced teachers. Why is there so much duplication of effort with numerous school districts and duplicated administrators in each.
WSJ and other news sources continually have stories about US businesses reducing waste, downsizing, consolidating, etc. But, not too often does one hear about school district consolidations, reduction of administration personnel, process improvements, cost reductions.
On buying American or not, wonder if there could potentially be better teachers than our own US home-grown from countries such as India, Japan, Phillipines, etc. Could we lower our costs/taxes by inducing these teachers to emigrate to US to teach. Maybe set up real competition in teaching similar to that in American brand vehicles vs Japan, Korean, etc.
Employees that manufacture cars in the US produce a product that is inferior (in the realm of competitive surveys). Teachers that teach students in the US produce inferior students (according to essentially every standardized test available). Both are overpaid. What is the common denominator that enables these inefficient systems to thrive? You guessed it.. strong unions with political influence.
Plus, they force him to keep continuing his education. He has a Master's degree now. Now in this case, that's hardly a bad thing, continuing your education. But it's still an extra commitment of your time, something that many people may not have.
Think that the half-life of a teacher is much greater than a EE, IT Pro, Chemical, etc. EEs, software pros need to continually take courses/seminars to stay current. Many industries also require engineers/technicians to have one or more certifications which need to be continually updated with courses and seminars. Same is true in some fields in medical. So, pity the poor teacher who also has to take courses/seminars.
Would think that some subjects such as math and history do not have much changing in content over the years. For these teachers, perhaps their greatest challenges might be keeping up to date with latest teaching methods.
"WSJ and other news sources continually have stories about US businesses reducing waste, downsizing, consolidating, etc. But, not too often does one hear about school district consolidations, reduction of administration personnel, process improvements, cost reductions."
That's because school's in this country are not treated as a business. They are simply another government agency. As a business, they would be held accountable by their clients (students). As another arm of the government, they are held accountable by......?
That was my recollection of public school also. You understand first hand Darwinian's "survival of the fittest" theory regardless of your religious affiliation. To actually learn something, it requires parental intervention. I envision a society where useless weights like teachers are not covered by taxpayers and instead a home-schooling system exists that can tap into a satellite feed of a university professor giving a lecture on a particular topic (which is covered by the existing funds that the universities already receive from the US government). A couple of times per year, the state sponsors a testing event to check the status of the students. This would free up billions of taxpayer money not to mention the fuel conservation from keeping millions of teachers and students from commuting to school on a daily basis.
So, pity the poor teacher who also has to take courses/seminars.
Oh I know, there are plenty of careers where you have to keep furthering your training. What I was doing was pointing out that there's more to teaching than meets the eye. It's not just a 6-7 hour per day, 9 month per year job.
One thing that DOES get on my nerves though, is how my friend twists that 3 month vacation around to make it sound like a disadvantage. He calls it being out of work 3 months out of the year! Or, if he wants 12 months worth of paychecks, he says he takes a pay cut. I try to remind him that he's salaried, and that whatever he makes, it comes out the same at the end of the year whether he got 9 months of paychecks or 12. He just needs to budget better.
In most school districts the "continuing education" is paid for for the teachers. Don't forget to mention the serious benefits packages (medical, dental, vision, comp time, time off for sick, family, medical..) they get, retirement? This all adds up.. Teahcers don't have it that bad. In fact, most school districts are union. Pay raises every year@! Taxpayers just keep paying. The federal,state,county whichever unions need to be brought into the "new world economy" and get a taste of layoffs, pay reductions, ect...
Just bought a Ford Fusion SEL V6 in satin silver, black leather, sunroof, ect.. I know this car is made in Hermi Mexico. But, I have to say the Mexican labor force knows how to put a car together. The interior is put together tight, the fenders, hood, doors ect all fit very well. Even checked underneath and all is in its place. So, comes down to this.. You can either buy a Hon/Toy assembled here in U.S. send profits to Japan. Or you can buy a Ford assembled in North America, by an American company with profits coming back to U.S.?? Go figure.... :confuse:
I highly doubt that the money ford makes on the fulans goes directly back to the us. for 1 thing they have to pay the mexican workforce to assemble the vehicle. So i dont buy that theory of yours. Besides id rather buy the hon/yota and support the us workers who assemble the vehicles here. I atleast know some portion of the money for the vehicle will be spent on US workers.
There are a just a couple of people between the assembly line and the executives, most of who work and live in the US.
For example: Most of the design, engineering, testing, etc. is done in America. All the support for those people (IT, human resources, secretaries). The marketing is done in America, as well as the accounting, and most of the logistics.
Those jobs dwarf by a large margin the number of people assembling the vehicle in Mexico.
That's fine, but hasn't that stuff paid for itself? And the argument could say a similar criteria goes into a competing import so its a wash IMO.
I'm talking the individual car that Scape bought. No line operations on US soil. The only real U.S. labor I can think of would be the delivery guys and even still that may not even be the case. And maybe the dealership that sold him the car.
No, the stuff hasn't paid for itself. Where can you buy a car that you're only paying for the assembly of it?
And it's not a wash with imports. Please read that link. If what you're saying is true, the only people in other countries involved in selling cars in the US are the executives.
To quote John McElroy: "You may say, “So what? The import brands offer the kinds of cars I want to buy.”
Well, more power to you. Go buy whatever you want. That’s the American way. But if you want to get the best ripple effect for the dollars you’re spending, buy American."
Wrong analysis again..after all this talk about what is taught in the school systems here, you'd think....
Assuming you are correct and ALL the profits go to Japan ( to be recycled back to the US shareholders btw ). Do you really believe that $13000 of your money going to Mexico with $6000 of it staying here is better than $20,000 staying here in the US with $1000 allegedly going to Japan as profits?
Your school system taught you that $13,000 is more than $20,000? Ok, now I agree that we are soon to fall behind Namibia in standard of living if this is what is being taught these days.
For example: Most of the design, engineering, testing, etc. is done in America. All the support for those people (IT, human resources, secretaries). The marketing is done in America, as well as the accounting, and most of the logistics.
Couldn't the same be said for cars like the Honda Accord, Toyota Camry, and Nissan Altima? These things are designed with the American market in mind.
Nearly all of the design, engineering and testing of the NA-made products in the Toyota line are done in Newport Beach, Michigan and Arizona... then at the individual plants in Fremont, CA; Georgetown, KY and Princeton, IN.
These are all..in the US..as you noted.
Yes there is logistical and design/engineering done here for the F/M/Z triplet but what does that contribute?
60% of the parts are Mexican in origin 98% of the labor is paid to bolster the Mexican economy 100% of the local services and taxes are paid in Mexico 100% of the logistics in Mexico benefit that economy.
Roughly then 60% of the vehicle cost remains in Mexico, say $13000, while the balance, say $6000, remains in the US. How is this good for us?
Sure, the Big Three are doing some off-shoring; they’re laying off workers; and they’re importing cars. But the size of their contribution to the American economy still dwarfs everything the foreign auto makers are doing
McElroy does understand the situation but IMO he makes only passing reference to what is really happening now.
First it's natural that each of the detroiters has a bigger presence here than any single new competitor. They've been here longer and they have until recently always made more vehicles than any other newcomer. As a fact yes they do support more jobs presently.
However...
Their trend is to take jobs away from the US. Not recognizing this is blind faith that 'everything will be OK' - until we outsource your job to Mexico. Then it's just business and taking care of the shareholders first, which is the way it should be. The shareholders own the company and if they want operations moved overseas to maximize the value of the investment then that's the way it has to be.
This 'informational program' sponsered by the detroiters and likely suggested to Wards as an editorial is a smokescreen before the next contract negotiations in 14 mo's.
The real facts are that the owners are always first. What benefits them the most is the way the company(s) will go.
He is the exception to teachers I have encountered, I have been to schools in 8 different states and had 20 different teachers before jr. high and only 4 would work with the students and take home papers to grade. in Jr. high all the teachers I had gave everything to student aids to grade. In high school had 6 teachers that would work with students, all others gave everything to student aids.
If being in a wheel chair would solve problems in my back and neck I would be happy, have had surgery 2003, 2004, 2005, supposed to have more this year. as for GM/chevy cars I see too many GM/chevy cars on the side of the road broke down to want one and join the group using onstar to call tow trucks, when you see cars with the temp plate still taped in the window broke down on the side of the road you are looking at a very inferior product from a company that lets products of that quality out. As for the workers having no say in quality how many times has the UAW gone on strike because they didn't like conditions or bennies or money? When new cars break down because nuts where not torqued that is a problem with the people that BUILT it, not the management that designed the inferior product so GM/ford/chrysler's problems fall on all of them workers and management.
"So, comes down to this.. You can either buy a Hon/Toy assembled here in U.S. send profits to Japan. Or you can buy a Ford assembled in North America, by an American company with profits coming back to U.S.?? Go figure...."
Yeah, go figure. We've been over this so many times I'm sick; go figure.
What money did Ford use to build those factories in Mexico?
Profits. So NO, there's a huge chunk of profits that Ford made that DIDN'T stay in the U.S.
What money did Toyota/Honda/Nissan etc. etc. use to build/expand factories in the U.S.?
Profits. So NO, there's a huge chunk of profits that the imports made from U.S. sales that STAYED in the U.S.
What do you think companies DO with profits? They are invested. Which companies are investing in new/expanded facilities in the U.S., setting up American parts suppliers to INCREASE domestic content, and doing R&D/design work in the U.S.? The imports.
The Fusion? You are aware that it is heavily based on the Mazda6. Personally, I don't know where the Mazda6 in particular was designed but I do know that most of the design work for Mazda is still out of Hiroshima. That's in Japan. Go figure......
I will never buy a GM, Ford, or Chrysler until I feel comfortable that they will start everyday. The safety crash tests haven't even been great for the Impala. :sick: The previous model actually DID BETTER on the crash test!
I think I am pretty much a Toyota owner for the rest of my life. I have owned many, and liked them all.
All the big car companies, foreign or not, have a lot of their designers and marketers here in the US. Execs too. They also have designers, marketers, and execs outside the US. Not just the imports, but Ford and GM - they're big players in Europe and Asia just like the Japanese Big 3 are here. Once you're big enough, you need market-specific design and management.
They have all suppliers all over the world, including the US. Korea supplies some Japanese factories with parts, and now China supplies everybody. The Koreans don't tend to outsource much: their car companies are divisions of chaebols that also include all the steel and parts suppliers they need (and obviously you get a good price when you're buying from yourself).
The domestics have the biggest job advantage in peripheral car-related jobs. Dealership salesmen - lots more of those (not necessarily a good thing). Mechanics and spare part suppliers/vendors - because there are many more domestics than imports on the roads due to past sales trends.
Of course, on average you keep more money in the US by buying an American car. But the gap is getting smaller, which makes it less of an issue for many people - not that it was a high priority for everyone to begin with.
> they would be held accountable by their clients (students).
Actually the more accountable to students (popularity) and parents they are via even an elected schoolboard, the more screwed up the system becomes. Actually the outsourcing concept has been tried in many ways--bringing noncertified people from industry in as teachers (IBM in Buffalo?) and even charter-community schools where poorly certified people teach. In this state it's a total flop even though the partisan legislature and (convicted) governor don't want to admit the failure of the "perfect" solution to the unions and public schools.
The communities get the schools they want and deserve. Our community expects and gets great results. But many parents aren't happy with the work cutting into student's time for other important activities like soccer and social life.
Perhaps some here think this can be treated with the same rubric as the auto industry but auto industry deals with nonhumans; schools deal with humans. Everyone looks for someone to blame for the problems in both so I guess they are similar!!!
I'm still looking for those schools that aren't building good products--the 13 valedictorians from ours more than half going into medicine; the OSU graduate this year in electrical engineering (female) who lives across the road. Guess Rush is flipping out with all these failures!!! Perhaps even Gm is having successes but people are busy polishing the negatives?
I felt that way for a long time, had nothing but Hondas, Toyotas/Lexus. One day I saw a picture of an 05 C6 Corvette and fell in love with it. After 6 months of struggling with the concept of buying a GM car and a first year car at that, I brought one home. The driving dynamics and bang you get for your buck won me over.
After over a year of ownership it has started every day and had only one trip to the dealer for a fuel gauge issue which they fixed on the first try. Out of 9 new Hondas, 4 new Toyotas, and 1 new Lexus I have owned, I had three hondas, one toyota, and a Lexus with quality problems in the first year of ownership. Out of the bunch there were several other quality issues over the years; one honda left us stranded two times.
The C6 is a great car that happens to be built in America. I now see that as an add benefit of owning one. If the big three build more great cars more people will buy and continue to buy them. I still own two Hondas BTW, one was build in the USA also, but I am glad I bought an American Brand car this time.
"Perhaps some here think this can be treated with the same rubric as the auto industry but auto industry deals with nonhumans; schools deal with humans."
Ah, no.
Both the auto industry (a business) and public schools (government agency) deal with clients. In the auto industry, the clients are the customers; with public schools, the clients are students and their parents. The PRODUCT of each is something nonhuman (cars and an education).
The DIFFERENCE is that with the auto industry (because it is private business), if I as the customer don't like the product, manufacturer 'A' doesn't get my money and I seek a vehicle elsewhere. This tends to make manufacturer 'A' (and 'B' and 'C'.....) pay more attention to the customer and seek ways to improve the product (the car).
With public schools (because it is essentially a government agency) they get my money regardless of how satisfied I am with their product (education). Even if I pull my child out of public school, the local school district is still pulling in several thousand dollars out of my pocket every year in taxes. Accountability? You've got to be kidding. True accountability means that if I don't like the product (education), that I have complete freedom of choice to place my children where I think they'll get the best education - and the tax dollars the district WOULD have had went with the child.
Please give me examples of where competition DOESN'T improve the product. And I'll give you examples of where monopolies tend to screw the consumer.
...is that several thousands of dollars come our of my pockets for school taxes and I don't even have kids nor plan on having any. There are a few bright kids who come out of Philadelphia public schools. Unfortunately two of them were recently gunned down by thugs. One was on vacation from Penn State visiting his grandmother and killed in an attempted mugging. Another was working at Hahneman Hospital as a parking lot attendant when some thug shot through the window of the booth.
"...is that several thousands of dollars come our of my pockets for school taxes and I don't even have kids nor plan on having any."
On many levels, I agree with you. But our society (and virtually every other society on this planet) has decided that it is in society's best interest that the population be educated. And the best way to ensure that the population is educated is to have public education.
However, the way OUR public schools are funded is NOT the only way to do it.
No sorry Rocky. In the capitalistic system it is the owners first and foremost. If that's good for the well being of everyone it's coincidental. The other economic models have been seen to be weaker yet.
The best way to stay strong is to take care of yourself first and make sure that you are the smartest, most efficient and best at whatever you do. Rely on no one.
We have succeeded so well because we were/are more self-reliant than others who were somewhat hidebound. Rely on no one.
Well many do benefit, but you also have to admit many are left behind. There isn't enough good paying jobs to go around and not everyone is capable of doing all those jobs, even if they tried.
"Well many do benefit, but you also have to admit many are left behind."
Yes. Equal opportunity doesn't mean equal outcome. We all have different abilities. I'm not going to begrudge any CEO's making millions because I understand that they have abilities/aptitudes/personalities that I DON'T have.
There will ALWAYS be those 'left behind'. The only way to ensure that none are 'left behind' is to take away from some (ultimately at the point of a gun) to hand out to others. We can argue all day long about whether or not this practice is 'fair' or not and get nowhere. But the basic facts outline above are indisputable.
"There isn't enough good paying jobs to go around and not everyone is capable of doing all those jobs, even if they tried."
Actually, there are plenty of good paying jobs around. What is lacking are people qualified to fill the positions. The desire to 'work hard' is simply not enough to fill those positions. I couldn't be CEO of a company no matter how much desire I had to 'work hard'. I'm simply incapable of doing the job.
I understand that it's very easy to get dragged off into side issues on some of these subjects, but our focus here is supposed to be automotive, not economic.
so the question for the average American car buyer is where his/her priorities really are. Should we do whatever we can to support the 'Detroit 3' regardless of product quality and continue to support all those overpaid (and underworked) employees? OR should we be happy to entertain those possibly superior products from other 'foreign' mfgrs. which may, in fact, be sending at least some portions of our dollars overseas? A question of individual priorities, obviously - and a general recognition of the fact that there is no such thing as an "American made" car.
Well technically there is. Cars made in Canada and Mexico are American made - I checked the map. And they are made by Ford and GM which is American. Even then, you look at the car and tranny comes from France or the Engine from Germany some times. Dang, it ain't easy. Guess the closest thing to USA car is to buy a Japan or Korean make built here. That is no matter how hard you try. Maybe the Cadillacs are US made? Wholly US made?
And it is the Big Two. The press and others refer to the German owned Chrysler as domestic - it is not. Germany is in Europe. I checked the map; again! -Loren
You're right - looked at the brand new Rand McNally map as published by the American Automobile Mfgrs. Alliance and the geographical center of the US is now Nashville, TN. and our borders only extend about a 150 mile radius from there Must be that new geography they are teaching in schools these days?
believe Daimler is uniquely dual national of all the major auto companies. and this would somehow substantiate that your Chrysler 300 is more 'American' than let's say an Avalon?
Comments
Not that I don't like those Opels - the Mantas were probably the best-looking sporty coupes of the 1970s, and the 1900 sedans and wagons were also handsome machines. But they didn't offer the room, comfort (good air conditioning) and reliability of a Skylark sedan or wagon. They were a good second car, but I wouldn't want one for my main means of transport, especially for a family.
looking at my nephews school calander teacher s work 8 months when you take all vacations into account, so income comes to $8,750 per month that they work, how many people do you that make that much per month that they work?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Let's see the last i4 engine RWD affordable car in a coupe was the Nissan 240SX. And it got a bit pricey over time. Can not think of anything in the $20K range, other than the Mustang now. And you go back to 2002, there was the Camaro. Camaro had Mustang beat for engine choices back in those last years. GM just left the car go, with little advertising and updating, it quietly left the scene. Kinda sad. 200HP and 30MPG car for under $20K which looks better than most anything out there today. How about the V8 choices? The Camaro and Firebirds looked pretty awesome, though the Firebird with the extreme nostrils on the hood was a bit much. A standard bird though looked slick. Not being able to see any hood out front is a little scary, but oh well.... and then the strange footwell area bump on the passenger side was odd. All in all though impressive looks.
-Loren
as for the teachers how can they teach what they don't know, if they can't pass the tests that they require the students to pass how can they expect to teach others.
I have had teachers that admitted that they knew nothing about the subject, the class did the best it could but we didn't finish the book and from what I see from kids now they are really going be screwed when they get out of the schools here.
When I got of school I could rebuild a car from the ground up, I could rebuild a carb in a few minuets and do a tuneup with a timing light and tachometer. I knew how to build a house from the ground up plumb it and wire it, the PC was just coming out and I learned what I could on those also. during the summer I learned how to drive my Dad's old 1964 Dodge D500 flatbed dump truck (a very reliable truck) and run a 1968 International Harvester frontloader/back hoe.
Kids now don't know how to use a tape measure or skill saw, they couldn't find the dipstick to check the oil or check tire pressure on their car, most can't even balance a check book without a calculator, They don't want to get their hands dirty and do some good old manual labor.
The same criticism occurs in the forum here on GM and Will Styling Save GM discussions; everyone knows how the big offices should have been doing things. I wonder why the ones with all the afterknowledge weren't in there doing the job to begin with? They could have had GM top car maker in the world (maybe they are?).
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Plus, they force him to keep continuing his education. He has a Master's degree now. Now in this case, that's hardly a bad thing, continuing your education. But it's still an extra commitment of your time, something that many people may not have.
It's hardly a cushy job.
total vehicle sales - including trucks, vans, SUVs etc and including fleet sales GM is still no. 1 although not by much. If you are simply considering car sales (less fleet) - Toyota surpassed GM quite a while ago. One possibility for GM occurs to me to get out of car production all together - they lose their arss 'selling' Cobalts/Impalas etc. with large rebates and incentives or giving them away to the rental car cos. etc. They can still do relatively well in the truck/SUV end of things where their products are certainly more competitive. May cost a bunch of jobs but doesn't 'downsizing usually do that anyway?
It's not what you know...
We have a web site in our state where you can look up salaries of any teacher or administrator. The waste that I wonder about is the "amount" of administrators and their salaries of which many make more than tenured/experienced teachers. Why is there so much duplication of effort with numerous school districts and duplicated administrators in each.
WSJ and other news sources continually have stories about US businesses reducing waste, downsizing, consolidating, etc. But, not too often does one hear about school district consolidations, reduction of administration personnel, process improvements, cost reductions.
On buying American or not, wonder if there could potentially be better teachers than our own US home-grown from countries such as India, Japan, Phillipines, etc. Could we lower our costs/taxes by inducing these teachers to emigrate to US to teach. Maybe set up real competition in teaching similar to that in American brand vehicles vs Japan, Korean, etc.
Good thought xrunner2 - outsourcing teachers.
Think that the half-life of a teacher is much greater than a EE, IT Pro, Chemical, etc. EEs, software pros need to continually take courses/seminars to stay current. Many industries also require engineers/technicians to have one or more certifications which need to be continually updated with courses and seminars. Same is true in some fields in medical. So, pity the poor teacher who also has to take courses/seminars.
Would think that some subjects such as math and history do not have much changing in content over the years. For these teachers, perhaps their greatest challenges might be keeping up to date with latest teaching methods.
That's because school's in this country are not treated as a business. They are simply another government agency. As a business, they would be held accountable by their clients (students). As another arm of the government, they are held accountable by......?
Oh I know, there are plenty of careers where you have to keep furthering your training. What I was doing was pointing out that there's more to teaching than meets the eye. It's not just a 6-7 hour per day, 9 month per year job.
One thing that DOES get on my nerves though, is how my friend twists that 3 month vacation around to make it sound like a disadvantage. He calls it being out of work 3 months out of the year! Or, if he wants 12 months worth of paychecks, he says he takes a pay cut. I try to remind him that he's salaried, and that whatever he makes, it comes out the same at the end of the year whether he got 9 months of paychecks or 12. He just needs to budget better.
So, comes down to this.. You can either buy a Hon/Toy assembled here in U.S. send profits to Japan. Or you can buy a Ford assembled in North America, by an American company with profits coming back to U.S.?? Go figure.... :confuse:
Congrats on your purchase. Nice cars.
For example: Most of the design, engineering, testing, etc. is done in America. All the support for those people (IT, human resources, secretaries). The marketing is done in America, as well as the accounting, and most of the logistics.
Those jobs dwarf by a large margin the number of people assembling the vehicle in Mexico.
Here's a good article about this:
http://wardsauto.com/commentary/buy_American_campaign/
I'm talking the individual car that Scape bought.
No line operations on US soil. The only real U.S. labor I can think of would be the delivery guys and even still that may not even be the case. And maybe the dealership that sold him the car.
And it's not a wash with imports. Please read that link. If what you're saying is true, the only people in other countries involved in selling cars in the US are the executives.
To quote John McElroy:
"You may say, “So what? The import brands offer the kinds of cars I want to buy.”
Well, more power to you. Go buy whatever you want. That’s the American way. But if you want to get the best ripple effect for the dollars you’re spending, buy American."
Assuming you are correct and ALL the profits go to Japan ( to be recycled back to the US shareholders btw ). Do you really believe that $13000 of your money going to Mexico with $6000 of it staying here is better than $20,000 staying here in the US with $1000 allegedly going to Japan as profits?
Your school system taught you that $13,000 is more than $20,000? Ok, now I agree that we are soon to fall behind Namibia in standard of living if this is what is being taught these days.
Couldn't the same be said for cars like the Honda Accord, Toyota Camry, and Nissan Altima? These things are designed with the American market in mind.
These are all..in the US..as you noted.
Yes there is logistical and design/engineering done here for the F/M/Z triplet but what does that contribute?
60% of the parts are Mexican in origin
98% of the labor is paid to bolster the Mexican economy
100% of the local services and taxes are paid in Mexico
100% of the logistics in Mexico benefit that economy.
Roughly then 60% of the vehicle cost remains in Mexico, say $13000, while the balance, say $6000, remains in the US. How is this good for us?
McElroy does understand the situation but IMO he makes only passing reference to what is really happening now.
First it's natural that each of the detroiters has a bigger presence here than any single new competitor. They've been here longer and they have until recently always made more vehicles than any other newcomer. As a fact yes they do support more jobs presently.
However...
Their trend is to take jobs away from the US. Not recognizing this is blind faith that 'everything will be OK' - until we outsource your job to Mexico. Then it's just business and taking care of the shareholders first, which is the way it should be. The shareholders own the company and if they want operations moved overseas to maximize the value of the investment then that's the way it has to be.
This 'informational program' sponsered by the detroiters and likely suggested to Wards as an editorial is a smokescreen before the next contract negotiations in 14 mo's.
The real facts are that the owners are always first. What benefits them the most is the way the company(s) will go.
In high school had 6 teachers that would work with students, all others gave everything to student aids.
as for GM/chevy cars I see too many GM/chevy cars on the side of the road broke down to want one and join the group using onstar to call tow trucks, when you see cars with the temp plate still taped in the window broke down on the side of the road you are looking at a very inferior product from a company that lets products of that quality out.
As for the workers having no say in quality how many times has the UAW gone on strike because they didn't like conditions or bennies or money?
When new cars break down because nuts where not torqued that is a problem with the people that BUILT it, not the management that designed the inferior product so GM/ford/chrysler's problems fall on all of them workers and management.
Yeah, go figure. We've been over this so many times I'm sick; go figure.
What money did Ford use to build those factories in Mexico?
Profits. So NO, there's a huge chunk of profits that Ford made that DIDN'T stay in the U.S.
What money did Toyota/Honda/Nissan etc. etc. use to build/expand factories in the U.S.?
Profits. So NO, there's a huge chunk of profits that the imports made from U.S. sales that STAYED in the U.S.
What do you think companies DO with profits? They are invested. Which companies are investing in new/expanded facilities in the U.S., setting up American parts suppliers to INCREASE domestic content, and doing R&D/design work in the U.S.? The imports.
The Fusion? You are aware that it is heavily based on the Mazda6. Personally, I don't know where the Mazda6 in particular was designed but I do know that most of the design work for Mazda is still out of Hiroshima. That's in Japan. Go figure......
I think I am pretty much a Toyota owner for the rest of my life. I have owned many, and liked them all.
All the big car companies, foreign or not, have a lot of their designers and marketers here in the US. Execs too. They also have designers, marketers, and execs outside the US. Not just the imports, but Ford and GM - they're big players in Europe and Asia just like the Japanese Big 3 are here. Once you're big enough, you need market-specific design and management.
They have all suppliers all over the world, including the US. Korea supplies some Japanese factories with parts, and now China supplies everybody. The Koreans don't tend to outsource much: their car companies are divisions of chaebols that also include all the steel and parts suppliers they need (and obviously you get a good price when you're buying from yourself).
The domestics have the biggest job advantage in peripheral car-related jobs. Dealership salesmen - lots more of those (not necessarily a good thing). Mechanics and spare part suppliers/vendors - because there are many more domestics than imports on the roads due to past sales trends.
Of course, on average you keep more money in the US by buying an American car. But the gap is getting smaller, which makes it less of an issue for many people - not that it was a high priority for everyone to begin with.
Actually the more accountable to students (popularity) and parents they are via even an elected schoolboard, the more screwed up the system becomes. Actually the outsourcing concept has been tried in many ways--bringing noncertified people from industry in as teachers (IBM in Buffalo?) and even charter-community schools where poorly certified people teach. In this state it's a total flop even though the partisan legislature and (convicted) governor don't want to admit the failure of the "perfect" solution to the unions and public schools.
The communities get the schools they want and deserve. Our community expects and gets great results. But many parents aren't happy with the work cutting into student's time for other important activities like soccer and social life.
Perhaps some here think this can be treated with the same rubric as the auto industry but auto industry deals with nonhumans; schools deal with humans. Everyone looks for someone to blame for the problems in both so I guess they are similar!!!
I'm still looking for those schools that aren't building good products--the 13 valedictorians from ours more than half going into medicine; the OSU graduate this year in electrical engineering (female) who lives across the road. Guess Rush is flipping out with all these failures!!! Perhaps even Gm is having successes but people are busy polishing the negatives?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
After over a year of ownership it has started every day and had only one trip to the dealer for a fuel gauge issue which they fixed on the first try. Out of 9 new Hondas, 4 new Toyotas, and 1 new Lexus I have owned, I had three hondas, one toyota, and a Lexus with quality problems in the first year of ownership. Out of the bunch there were several other quality issues over the years; one honda left us stranded two times.
The C6 is a great car that happens to be built in America. I now see that as an add benefit of owning one. If the big three build more great cars more people will buy and continue to buy them. I still own two Hondas BTW, one was build in the USA also, but I am glad I bought an American Brand car this time.
Ah, no.
Both the auto industry (a business) and public schools (government agency) deal with clients. In the auto industry, the clients are the customers; with public schools, the clients are students and their parents. The PRODUCT of each is something nonhuman (cars and an education).
The DIFFERENCE is that with the auto industry (because it is private business), if I as the customer don't like the product, manufacturer 'A' doesn't get my money and I seek a vehicle elsewhere. This tends to make manufacturer 'A' (and 'B' and 'C'.....) pay more attention to the customer and seek ways to improve the product (the car).
With public schools (because it is essentially a government agency) they get my money regardless of how satisfied I am with their product (education). Even if I pull my child out of public school, the local school district is still pulling in several thousand dollars out of my pocket every year in taxes. Accountability? You've got to be kidding. True accountability means that if I don't like the product (education), that I have complete freedom of choice to place my children where I think they'll get the best education - and the tax dollars the district WOULD have had went with the child.
Please give me examples of where competition DOESN'T improve the product. And I'll give you examples of where monopolies tend to screw the consumer.
On many levels, I agree with you. But our society (and virtually every other society on this planet) has decided that it is in society's best interest that the population be educated. And the best way to ensure that the population is educated is to have public education.
However, the way OUR public schools are funded is NOT the only way to do it.
Isn't maximizing profits at the overall good of the country, one of the main flaws with our system ?
I believe it's the biggest flaw in the free market that affects us more than anyone else. :sick:
Rocky
The best way to stay strong is to take care of yourself first and make sure that you are the smartest, most efficient and best at whatever you do. Rely on no one.
We have succeeded so well because we were/are more self-reliant than others who were somewhat hidebound. Rely on no one.
Rocky
Yes. Equal opportunity doesn't mean equal outcome. We all have different abilities. I'm not going to begrudge any CEO's making millions because I understand that they have abilities/aptitudes/personalities that I DON'T have.
There will ALWAYS be those 'left behind'. The only way to ensure that none are 'left behind' is to take away from some (ultimately at the point of a gun) to hand out to others. We can argue all day long about whether or not this practice is 'fair' or not and get nowhere. But the basic facts outline above are indisputable.
"There isn't enough good paying jobs to go around and not everyone is capable of doing all those jobs, even if they tried."
Actually, there are plenty of good paying jobs around. What is lacking are people qualified to fill the positions. The desire to 'work hard' is simply not enough to fill those positions. I couldn't be CEO of a company no matter how much desire I had to 'work hard'. I'm simply incapable of doing the job.
That is no matter how hard you try. Maybe the Cadillacs are US made? Wholly US made?
And it is the Big Two. The press and others refer to the German owned Chrysler as domestic - it is not. Germany is in Europe. I checked the map; again!
-Loren
Technically, Daimler has full legal domicile in Deutchland and in the US. It has full listings in both the DAX and NYSE as well.
I believe Daimler is uniquely dual national of all the major auto companies.
and this would somehow substantiate that your Chrysler 300 is more 'American' than let's say an Avalon?