Buying American Cars What Does It Mean?

martian

I agree-the 1968 Dart was an excellent design-why don't hey copy it? Square roof line meant lots of headroom in the back seat.Also, good visibility-and wing windows! (this is ONE feature I'd love to see revised-you could open your wing windows, crack the rear windows, and drive with a fresh breeze in your face! Hows about making a "new " Dart-with a modern OC straight six (ala BMW), and a good suspension-they would sell like hotcakes.I cannot understand WHY etroit stylists think we want sloping roofline-it limits headroom and kills visibilty-Detroit-are you listening?

usmc0369

I just (Sadly, for practical reasons) got rid of my "old" 1995 F-150 which I bought new. Even that old horse with the 300 I-6 Engine and 5 speed manual was not all American. Heck, the tranny I think was a Mazda, My wife's 1995 Ranger is more or less a Mazda and my son's 1999 F-150 was assembled in Canada. I wound up buying a Subaru Outback 2.5XT limited. Why, you ask. Two reasons, one I abused my truck bad and would abuse any truck new or old (I jumped this one and broke a back shock the first six months with my old one). Two no one makes a station wagon that can touch my Subie for 29 grand, which is what I paid for mine. Yes the Dodge Magnum with the so-called Hemi is close, but get all that I have and your close to 40 grand. I say so-called Hemi because if you know anything about engines, many of the cars today have hemi heads. If you have double overhead cams you have hemi heads. Back to the point nothing is a 100% anything anymore. So no matter what you buy, American and foreign companies are making money.

imidazol97

It's ironic how many there are of the late 80s and 90s Buicks and Olds. Sure doesn't support the tenet that GM builds junk--

scape2

Sad, you don't realize your ship is sinking.. its call the USS America... How are you going to pay for that import when your job is exported, outsourced or eliminated??? We are all economically connected on this ship my friend...

scape2

as consumers we are programmed to buy the least expensive item. We don't think long term about how any purchase is going to affect our countries economic stability or future. This is why we are now a debtor nation. In debt to China, Japan, South Korea to name a few. Even our government is in deep debt. We don't think a second thought about it which is even more sad. Our children are going to inherit an economy made of two classes. Filthy rich whom have profited from sending jobs overseas, and the other class of working poor. Don't belive it? Walmart is now the leading employer in the U.S... Hmmm.. Bet they have a great 401K program.. Health benefits.. yeah right.. Keep sending your wealth overseas it will catch up to you or someone you know sooner or later..

imidazol97

And they were shown in Dateline last week to be a big proponent of companies moving production to China to lower costs so Walmart can buy their goods cheaper and make more profit selling them here. Walmart has a headquarters in the center of production there.

ironmentality

Making a rational decision with your purchasing power also involves where you buy your product from. American cars are still competitive when it comes to money for the buck in the marketplace.

If one were truly the most rational consumer, 90% of the BMW's, Cadillac's, and Lexus on the road shouldn't be there. Assuming further stringent rationality, wouldn't he or she always buy a four cylinder gas car or an old style V6 Buick with a 3800 engine assuming the utmost reliability with no focus on style, just substance and durability over the ownership of the car?

The dollar spent by an American worker on an American made product goes let's say to Ford Motor Company in Dearborn. I find it unreal you can simply shut down the fact that somehow America does NOT benefit more by buying a product from Ford then from an import competitor.

Sure, Ford can distribute that cash in terms of a dividend to reward its shareholders for putting equity into the company. However, more revenue (more cars bought from Ford) means an appreciating stock price, more capital to work with, and a higher credit rating. Meaning Ford has more money to work with, and has shown by the number of employees they have, and the investments they have made in the past, they entirely benefit America more then an import factory building Camry's or Acura's.

You benefit America more by buying from an American company, then one headquartered in Seoul or Tokyo. It's that simple.

ironmentality

When Ronald Reagan was President, the U.S. exported more then it ever did. An American worker on a level playing field (which unforunately is not the case) can outproduce and outperform any other worker on the planet.

Unforunately, the workers we compete with usually don't have health care costs or pension liabilities that there employer have to put up with.

However, American auto manufacturing is still very relevant to the success of our economy. Too many people make a great living off of it.

Competitiors to the big three use American auto workers and are making billions of dollars each year inside the states. To make the statement U.S. manufacturing is irrelevant is absolutely insane.

Plus, on R&D spending, no one spends more then the auto industry in the states. $16 billion dollars last year.

You have made one of my points, killerbunny. The U.S. needs to automate more, and start building cars and trucks like Toyota can, in 24 hours -- not 36 or 33 hours like GM and Ford respectively.

The UAW doesn't help.

ironmentality

Wal-Mart actually offers competitive Health Insurance as of late last year.

At least Wal-Mart isn't spending $5 billion a year on health care to its retirees?

carlisimo

Right now what's saving GM's volume is cars bought in China.

So... we should buy more Chinese things, to raise the level of wealth in China, so that they can buy more of our cars. Sort of, anyway; the working class there doesn't get much of the money we send over, and their government interferes at so many levels. That country's changing though, and if a middle class can develop there we'll have a lot to gain.

That's what they mean by "global economy."

ironmentality

As long as an American company is making the products in China, at a low enough cost so the Chinese can afford them, it benefits us.

A middle class in China and India is already giving much to gain to American industrial giants. General Electric stands to make nearly 40% of its revenue from Asia within the next ten years. Where else would they be getting such rapid growth from there products?

GM is becoming the king of China slowly but surely. The Buick name is like gold there.

What would really benefit America more is if China would respect intellectual property rights (software, designer clothing, golf clubs to name a few categories) that the Chinese rip off U.S. companies to the tune of tens of billions of dollars per year.

It is ludicrous to say the working class of China has not largely benefitted from foreign investment. 250 million people have been lifted out of poverty in the last three years because of those investments into the middle class.

They in turn will be consumers for multinational corporations.

If we play our cards right, we will benefit from it.

Nevertheless, that is off topic - because we should just be buying great American products here at home pushing for policies that give American corporations and the American worker/taxpayer the fairest possible shake to generate more wealth for themselves.

lemko

...those downsized C-body Olds and Buicks have going for them is incredible fuel economy. I find myself driving the Park Ave more often these days. It's happy on rotgut 87 regular and delivers phenomenal fuel economy. Funny, 20 years ago I'd have posted my opinion on the 1988 Park Avenue in the "Wouldn't Be Caught Dead Driving One" forum.

It's something how a Buick is as revered in China as a Lexus is here.

imidazol97

>downsized C-body Olds and Buicks have going for them is incredible fuel economy.

You must have missed the coursework in Hate GM 101. The OHV 3800s are to be hated and mocked, not praised for doing what most drivers want much of the time. They give good mileage when maintained and treated gently on the pedal especially considering the metal they're pulling around. And I feel safer if someone hits me with the bulk of my two H bodies.

socala4

The dollar spent by an American worker on an American made product goes let's say to Ford Motor Company in Dearborn.

I don't think that you recognize that your philosophy may have been easy to apply back in the sixties before the globalization of the car market, but it is not easy today.

Again, tell me which car is more "American":

-A Ford Fusion manufactured in Hermosillo, Mexico;
-A Honda Accord built in Marysville, Ohio
-A Chrysler 300 built on a US assembly line, but whose parent company is now based in Stuttgart.
-A Pontiac GTO built and designed in Australia

Now, keep this in mind:

-Fewer American manufacturing jobs are created with the Ford and Pontiac than with the other two cars, including the "foreign one".

-All four of these companies, including Honda, pay taxes in the United States, as do their workers who are based in the US.

In any case, didn't your econ course cover a topic called "competitive advantage"? Nations import goods when it makes more sense to get someone else to build them than it does to build them themselves, and that is considered to be perfectly rational behavior by economists.

You can agree with them or not, but an economist would tell you that your beliefs are not rational, because you would advocate misallocating resources and effectively creating inflation and price increases by forcing consumers to buy higher-priced, lower-quality domestic products when there is an imported substitute that provides more utility at a lower price.

I'm not entirely in the free trade camp myself, but my position is a political one, not based upon economics. You'd be hard pressed to find an economist to agree with your positions.

andre1969

I agree-the 1968 Dart was an excellent design-why don't hey copy it? Square roof line meant lots of headroom in the back seat.

Actually, the hardtop's roofline was pretty rakish. Here's a pic of my old hulk of a '68. Even with that concave rear window, I still have plenty of headroom. And on a car that's probably about 4-5 inches lower than an '06 Impala! Now legroom is a different story, as the Dart hardtop is tight in the back for me. But then, so is the Impala!

Now the sedans were a different story...those suckers were HUGE inside. In fact, I remember Consumer Reports commenting that the '68 Dart, a compact, had more front and rear legroom than the '68 Impala, a full-size! And oddly, in an instance of deja vu, I've noticed that I can fit better in the back seat of a new Neon than I can the new Impala. Even though published dimensions say the Impala's roomier, my knees don't dig into the seatback of the Neon like they do on the Impala.

nwng

ummmm, I remember about 20 yrs ago, there was this particular car that sold for $4999 which undercuts pretty much everyone in the market. Did any auto manufacturer went belly up because of this vehicle?

Now that the ACLU is gonna be the scapegoat? I already know where you get ALL your "facts" from :P

lemko

The 3800 has delivered decent performance and fuel economy in many cars I've driven over several generations of that engine. I don't care if the haters think it's crude, it does the job admirably. An AK-47 is a crude rifle with loose tolerances, but is more reliable than the M-16 with its tighter, more precise tolerances.

anythngbutgm

Don't forget that when Hyundai invaded the industry in '86 with the Excel, they burned ALOT of people. The whole "get what you pay for" mantra was the staple of those little pigs running around then. They undercut the competiton by a huge margin and look what happened to their reputation? Even this day, there are those buyers that wouldn't go near a Hyundai/Kia based on the horror stories and experiences. And to this day H/K is STILL trying to prove their worth as a viable car builder.

I have the utmost confidence that these new Chinese offerings are going to follow the same path. Look at them, they are nothig more than knockoffs of the competition. CHEAP knockoffs to boot and it is all going to come down to "Get what you pay for" after a couple of years on the market, same fate as the Koreans. I predict people ARE going to get burned by these things. Who knows, maybe they'll be run out of the country as fast as they got here...

anythngbutgm

Oh sorry, forgot post a reply to yours.

"I remember about 20 yrs ago, there was this particular car that sold for $4999 which undercuts pretty much everyone in the market. Did any auto manufacturer went belly up because of this vehicle?"

Good point.

travler

But....if you compare the numbers of 80's,and 90's Camrys and Hondas how would those GM numbers stack up? Also, a 10 or 12 year old Camry or Accord would still be worth $1000 or more while a GM would only be worth a couple hundred if that.

imidazol97

Good post. I have said the same before in various discussions.

Probably the people of KY have "given" more to subsidize the Georgetown plant than they will know publicly. I lived near a Ford plant being built in the 70's. The local county got stuck for half a million in connection fees for the local water system, of which I was a paying customer. The State had conveniently promised all sorts of benefits on the part of the local area that didn't get included in the public totals.

I only can imagine what Smyrna, TN, has given for the Nissan plant I see there.

Creative bookkeeping seems to be a problem for states who are trying to tax the companies--offshore companies and moving money to offshore suppliers all lead to a money flow difficult to tax.

veliger

In any case, didn't your econ course cover a topic called "competitive advantage"?

It's called, "Comparative Advantage".

There is a serious debate in acadamia as to whether the current outsourcing trend by US Multinationals is really comparative advantage, or simply labor arbitrage.

jlawrence01

The local county got stuck for half a million in connection fees for the local water system, of which I was a paying customer.

But do realize that in the "great state" of Ohio, the municipality will get approximately 2% of the payroll dollars for plants within their municipality and up to 2% of payroll earned by its residents for plants outside of its municipal limits. (A reason why I don't live in Ohio anymore.)

veliger

But....if you compare the numbers of 80's,and 90's Camrys and Hondas how would those GM numbers stack up? Also, a 10 or 12 year old Camry or Accord would still be worth $1000 or more while a GM would only be worth a couple hundred if that.

Where can you get data like this, on the percentages of a particular model still registered after 10, 15 years etc.? I remember being surprised to see about 5 years ago that the Grand Am had the highest % in it's class still registered after 10 years. This kind of data probably say as much about the people who own particular models as it does about a model's durability. The new Corolla commercial showing three "old" Corolla's included a 1995 with around 120K on it. That's not an impressive total mileage (all cars should go well beyond 120K) and that's only 11 or 12K per year, not many miles per year.

travler

I agree. The ship is sinking. The last thing this country needs is American auto makers going bust. They are the catalyst of our economy. I have family who work for GM. Their jobs are on the line too. When an American auto maker slows down so goes all other commerce. If they would change their ways, and build a better product people would be glad to come back home. I truly wish it weren't so.... for the sake of us all.

nwng

please provide a link, I would be very interested in what you are claiming

socala4

There is a serious debate in acadamia as to whether the current outsourcing trend by US Multinationals is really comparative advantage, or simply labor arbitrage.

Comparative advantage and labor arbitrage are the same thing. If the cost of labor is lower in Country Y than it is in Country X, then all things being equal, it makes more sense for a company to hire workers in Country Y.

imidazol97

You are assuming every municipality has an earnings tax. This plant was not built in a municipality and it wasn't the municipality which owned the water company.

socala4

all of the States give them insane tax breaks and incentives to get the jobs for their state.

That's because these governments, rightly or wrongly, believe that the benefits created by increased employment and an expanded tax base will cover the cost of the incentives.

And American companies get the same benefit. One of the first companies to use the power of eminent domain to get land for their facilities was General Motors in Flint. (And some years after getting permission to steal the land from local residents, they shut down the plant anyway. Should I show my appreciation for that by buying a Cobalt?)

patriotsrule

OK, let's take up this debate again in 5 years. Then we can take a look at the reliability ratings of the Cobalt vs. the Corolla. Let's see how many recalls the Cobalt has vs. Corolla as well by then. We can also look at the resale value of each and how many people are looking for a 5 year old Cobalt vs. a 5 year old Corolla.

socala4

OK, let's take up this debate again in 5 years. Then we can take a look at the reliability ratings of the Cobalt vs. the Corolla. Let's see how many recalls the Cobalt has vs. Corolla as well by then. We can also look at the resale value of each and how many people are looking for a 5 year old Cobalt vs. a 5 year old Corolla.

There's no debate. A rational consumer knows that the Toyota, all things being equal, is going to likely retain better residuals than is the Chevy. That may change in five years' time, but based upon historical data, there's no reason to conclude differently until we see otherwise. Based upon that, you're wise to go with the proven winner.

socala4

"All four of these companies, including Honda, pay taxes in the United States, as do their workers who are based in the US"...This is the biggest load of Bull you've posted yet.

They do pay taxes in the US -- if you bother reviewing their financial statements (available from the SEC), you can see that for yourself.

And in case, we know that their US employees pay income taxes. Perhaps we'd be better off if the workers in Marysville, Ohio didn't have a place to work?

travler

Here are some more stats:
In Ohio there are 160 suppliers for the Honda plants. In 2004 $6.8 billion was spent on Honda products.
North American suppliers total 600 putting $13.6 billion into the country's economy.
PROPERTY TAXES PAID IN 2004: $23.6 million
United Way Contributions: $1.2 million from Associates
$ .900.000 Corporate Match
Capital investment since 1979 $5.5 billion.
EXPORTS; 22,586 cars shipped to 41 countries.
11,000 motorcycles and ATVs to 52 countries
$1.5 billion of parts and components
COMMUNITY INVOLVEMENT: $615,000 in "Dollars for Doers" grants have been paid to qualified non-profit organizations since 1995. Honda associates, spouses and retirees have given more than 290,000 volunteer hours in support of local communities. $1.3 million was donated to the Katrina fund.

I've been a GMer most of my life. Things are changing and they are not. I wish it were different. Our country needs them.

imidazol97

Thank you for admitting it's not "fact" but a datum that won't be known until the future.

Now if you want to talk current JD Power 90-day ownership data that's more meaningful.

imidazol97

Do you have data for income taxes on the company? The charitable contributions are their choice. Walmart does a lot of that.

andre1969

of older cars are going to be different for different parts of the country. For instance, if you go down to Mississippi, Lousiana, Texas, and other lower-cost areas, you'd swear that GM still built their RWD 80's B/C- and G-bodies!

Go up to areas in the rust belt, and you'll find that older Japanese cars are almost nonexistent. Go to snobby high-income areas, and you'll find that old cars in general are rare, simply because everybody has to have the latest and greatest johnny-come-lately.

On Monday I went car-shopping wtih a friend of mine. We went out to Glen Burnie, which is affectionately known as the Armpit of Anne Arundel County. It's maybe 20 miles from where I live, and in a different county. And far enough away that it's a whole different income class. Plenty of older cars out there from the early 90's, 80's, and even 70's and 60's. Partly because people just don't have the income to keep buying as many new cars, so they have to make the older ones last.

In my neighborhood, about the only place you see 60's and 70's cars is in my yard! :P

travler

No... they didn't go belly up....at least not yet. It was a price leader only. Also, no one ever bought the second one. They were junk, and fell apart in just a few months. You get what you pay for. And, don't think the manufacturer didn't make money on those vehicles. It's the dealer that hated to sell them. They had to deal with the problems and there wasen't any profit in them. Yet the manufacturer forced dealers to sell them.
It's not just ACLU's fault. It's poor quality and reliability.

veliger

please provide a link, I would be very interested in what you are claiming

Here's what I can find quickly:

Wow, here's a shock, Canadians are better educated than US southerners!!

http://southernstudies.org/facingsouth/2005/08/toyota-reveals-limits-of-great.as- p

http://www.cdfa.net/cdfa/press.nsf/0/f14090cd986e4c5f86257006004106f3?OpenDocume- nt

$150 Million was the original KY state subsidy to Toyota way back when.

imidazol97

Interesting links you posted. Thanks.

The first talks about Dell blackmailing North Carolina as being unpatriotic if they didn't give them money to expand. Is this the same Dell who does their (business) customer service from India or somewhere you can't understand the employees! I had to call many times about parts on company-owned laptops. Awful. Home users got even worse because the last time Dell had improved on English ability compared to previous years.

The other link says this about a company NOT paying income tax even though they benefited from other tax breaks probably on the idea that the company would end up paying tax to the State.

"The same report noted that Lexmark International Inc., Lexington's largest private employer with 4,000 workers, paid no corporate income taxes to Kentucky or any other state during 2001, 2002 or 2003. Lexmark was one of several businesses cited by Chandler as having benefited from the state's tax incentive programs."

socala4

Now if you want to talk current JD Power 90-day ownership data that's more meaningful.

Why ignore years of history? Ignoring years of track record doesn't make much sense, especially when your money is on the line.

But let's have a look at JD Power's comparisons for 2005 models of the Cobalt, Civic and Corolla. Based upon this, which one is the safer bet? (Hint: Notice that the Cobalt places last in most of the categories.):

Overall quality:
Cobalt - 2 stars out of 5
Civic - 3 stars out of 5
Corolla - 3 stars out of 5

Mechanical quality:
Cobalt - 3 stars out of 5
Civic - 3 stars out of 5
Corolla - 3 stars out of 5

Body and interior quality:
Cobalt - 2 stars out of 5
Civic - 4 stars out of 5
Corolla - 3 stars out of 5

Feature and accessory quality:
Cobalt - 3 stars out of 5
Civic - 4 stars out of 5
Corolla - 5 stars out of 5

Overall appeal:
Cobalt - 3 stars out of 5
Civic - 4 stars out of 5
Corolla - 4 stars out of 5

Performance:
Cobalt - 3 stars out of 5
Civic - 4 stars out of 5
Corolla - 4 stars out of 5

Comfort:
Cobalt - 3 stars out of 5
Civic - 4 stars out of 5
Corolla - 4 stars out of 5

Features and Instrument Panel:
Cobalt - 3 stars out of 5
Civic - 4 stars out of 5
Corolla - 4 stars out of 5

Style:
Cobalt - 3 stars out of 5
Civic - 3 stars out of 5
Corolla - 3 stars out of 5

Overall dependability:
Cobalt - no data
Civic - 3 stars out of 5
Corolla - 4 stars out of 5

You can make your own comparison here: http://consumercenter.jdpower.com/cc/rd/cc/auto/compare.asp

PF_Flyer

I know that this can be a controversial subject, but please try to avoid making this personal and/or derogatory in nature.

I've cleaned up by removing a few posts that were taking us down the wrong path.

And now, back to your regularly scheduled program.

socala4

Your first link demonstrates that tax breaks aren't the only consideration for a company's location selection.

The second link doesn't broach whether the net benefit of lost corporate tax is offset by the employment creation, property tax payments, federal taxes, etc.

Lexmark is an American company with over 13,000 employees, and I would think that the state of Kentucky would want that headquarters in their state, not elsewhere.

slinky1

Remember, JD power awarded gold,silver , bronze plant quality awards to GM, clean sweep, i think perception has to be changed.

slinky1

I build GM and Suzuki vehicles, so on the other hand, whats the difference from me buying GM or "Japanese" Suzuki???

xrunner2

The 3800 has delivered decent performance and fuel economy in many cars I've driven over several generations of that engine. I don't care if the haters think it's crude,

There are many needs to be filled for some drivers beyond "just transportation". Quality and reliability of overall vehicle aside, in last few decades, there have not been (except for Corvette, Mustang) American branded cars with exceptional performing engines. People have had to look to Honda, Nissan (VQ), BMW and other foreign brands to find engines that go beyond just being an appliance. American branded cars have become boring. But,this may be starting to change in last year with intro of Chrysler/Dodge with hemi and Australian GTO.

imidazol97

Everyone has a different definition of the type of engine that is needed for their perception of an ideal car.

I need an engine with good gas mileage, that will pull a fairly large car in the process, and that doesn't need to do 0-60 in 5 seconds. I am more concerned about the car's 60-0 time.

Others want an engine that gives pizzazz in its operation an in their definition of pizzazz that's quick, high-revving, and so on.

Most cars I see being driven during the day and the way they're driven only need to have 4-cylinder motors in them that can give 35-40 mpg in someone typical driving. Might also be useful next year or two as gas prices meet the $4 mark.

travler

Was this a particular plant or all plants across the country?

travler

You probably won't have to wait 5 years. Lets check it out in 12 months, then in 24.

socala4

You probably won't have to wait 5 years. Lets check it out in 12 months, then in 24.

According to JD Power, you can stop waiting. The initial quality surveys of the 2005 models already show the Cobalt falling behind. Perhaps the market will ignore the inferiority of the product when determining residuals, but I doubt it.

socala4

Remember, JD power awarded gold,silver , bronze plant quality awards to GM, clean sweep, i think perception has to be changed.

The perception of this will change when cars across the entire product line improve.

Take a look at the JD Powers results that I provided above, and then tell me whether you'd be surprised if Cobalt doesn't compete effectively with the Civic or Corolla in retail sales. Even in the early stages, the car doesn't appear to be as well built as are its competitors.